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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook (OGL)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook (OGL)

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Enter a fantastic world of adventure!

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game puts you in the role of a brave adventurer fighting to survive in a world beset by magic and evil. Will you cut your way through monster-filled ruins and cities rife with political intrigue to emerge as a famous hero laden with fabulous treasure, or will you fall victim to treacherous traps and fiendish monsters in a forgotten dungeon? Your fate is yours to decide with this giant Core Rulebook that provides everything a player needs to set out on a life of adventure and excitement!

This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an open playtest involving more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into the new millennium.

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook includes:

  • All player and Game Master rules in a single volume
  • Complete rules for fantastic player races like elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and half-orcs
  • Exciting new options for character classes like fighters, wizards, rogues, clerics, and more
  • Streamlined and updated rules for feats and skills that increase options for your hero
  • A simple combat system with easy rules for grapples, bull rushes, and other special attacks
  • Spellcaster options for magic domains, familiars, bonded items, specialty schools, and more
  • Hundreds of revised, new, and updated spells and magical treasures
  • Quick-generation guidelines for nonplayer characters
  • Expanded rules for curses, diseases, and poisons
  • A completely overhauled experience system with options for slow, medium, and fast advancement
  • ... and much, much more!

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The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is also available as:

Hardcover ISBN: 978-1-60125-150-3

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Last Updated - 5/30/2013

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What a Pathfinder truly needs...

5/5 —

If there is any one book to have, it is this one. It is the only Pathfinder book you will ever need to start playing, but if you're like me you'll eventually want more.

When I first learned of tabletop RPGs my attention turned to D&D even though I knew next to nothing about it, nor did I know of anyone who played it. I only knew it because it was the name everyone knew when someone said "tabletop RPG" and the answer wasn't "what is that?" I wanted to play it but I didn't know where to start. I was lost, forlorn, and alone.

Then, one fateful day, I met someone online who told me about Pathfinder. I took one look at the Core Rulebook and I never looked back, and to this day I don't regret the decision one bit. The Core Rulebook is a solid start to any aspiring tabletop gamer's adventure and is a must own not only for the abundance of useful information it provides but also for the clean presentation and the magnificent art provided by Wayne Reynolds.

In short, if you want to play Pathfinder and haven't already, pick this book up immediately. It is well worth it.

Legendary

5/5 —

Legendary. It’s hard to know where to begin to review this book, but that one word encapsulates it well. There’s a reason Pathfinder is thriving a decade into its existence, and it all starts here. If you don’t know anything about Pathfinder, you can think of it as a revised and improved version of a specific edition of D&D (the “3.5” edition). Its strength is the nearly infinite capacity for customization, and its weakness is that enormous customization introduces complexity. In other words, this is a “crunch heavy” instead of a “rules light” game. Trust me, it’s worth it though. This is going to be a long review because I’ve got fifteen chapters to cover in this massive, 575-page book! If you don’t have the patience to read through the whole review, the conclusion makes it clear: buy this book. With this and the Bestiary, you have years of adventure at your fingertips.

Chapter 1 is “Getting Started” (12 pages). This chapter contains a brief introduction to the game, an overview of each chapter, a glossary of common terms, an example of play (very useful if this is your first RPG ever), and the rules for generating ability scores for a character (how physically and mentally capable they are).

Chapter 2 is “Races” (11 pages). The “Core” races presented here are: Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Halflings, and Humans. As you would imagine, there are advantages and disadvantages to each race. The chapter spends a page on each race, and beyond the rules ramifications it takes care to talk about what members of that race typically look like, what their culture is like, why they often become adventurers, and how they relate to other races. It’s not an overwhelming amount of information (which is good for new players). For the most part, these races stick to fairly standard fantasy expectations.

Chapter 3 is “Classes” (57 pages). There are eleven “core classes” presented in this book: Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard. The spread of classes does an excellent job covering different play-styles and roles within a group. The power level of these classes has been significantly bumped up from D&D 3.5, and there are a lot more choices to be made within each class. This makes the classes more complex, but also more satisfying to see advance up through each level. If you’re brand-new to Pathfinder, it might be good to stay away from spell-casters like the Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizard until you get more experience, as the sheer number of choices to be made can be overwhelming at first.

Chapter 4 is “Skills” (27 pages). Skills are something that every character has and they determine the likelihood of success in doing certain things. Want to leap from one rooftop to another? Roll an Acrobatics check. Want to figure out what spell that evil wizard just cast at you? Roll a Spellcraft check. Different classes get bonuses to using particular skills, but every character, regardless of class, can become good at something if they invest their “skill points” in a particular skill. Pathfinder has condensed the number of skills slightly from D&D 3.5, though it still has more than newer RPGs tend to have. I like the diversity and ability to specialize in discrete areas, but some think there should have been further consolidation. Each skill is described with great detail on specifically what it allows you to do and not do, which is quite helpful in avoiding rules arguments.

Chapter 5 is “Feats” (29 pages). Feats are special abilities. Every character gets to choose one feat at every odd level, and some classes and races get “bonus” feats. A feat might be something that lets you fight better in darkness (“Blindfighting”) or it might be something that makes certain spells you cast more effective (“Spell Focus”). There are several dozen feats to choose from, so this can be one of the parts of character creation that takes the longest to do. Their value, again, is that they allow for enormous customization of a character. Just because there are two Fighters in the party doesn’t mean they’ll be identical, because feats allow them to operate in very different ways!

Chapter 6 is “Equipment” (16 pages). Your character will need a weapon, maybe some armor, and some other gear like a backpack or a coil of rope. But in addition, you might wonder how expensive a night’s stay at an inn is, or how much it’ll cost to persuade a local wizard to cast a spell for you. All of the answers are in this chapter. I really appreciate that every item and service isn’t just listed on a table with a price, but in addition most receive a description, a picture, and (sometimes) additional rules to explain how it works in actual gameplay.

Chapter 7 is “Additional Rules” (13 pages). The title of this chapter isn’t particularly helpful, as the entire book consists of rules. Really, it’s a miscellany of various things about your character. First up is Alignment, which is whether your character is good, evil, or somewhere in between. A lot of other RPGs dispense with such questions, but it is “hard-coded” into Pathfinder in the sense that it’s not just a role-playing choice: many spells, magic items, and other effects change depending on a character’s alignment. Next, there’s a few pages on “Vital Statistics” like determining a character’s age, height and weight, and (most importantly) carrying capacity (also known as “encumbrance”). If your character has a low Strength score, don’t expect him or her to be able to carry a lot of gear. Then, there’s a discussion of movement speeds in various contexts (in the course of a combat encounter, for example, or for travelling great distances overland). Last, a bunch of little things are covered under the title “Exploration”: how far characters can see in different levels of light, how to determine if an object can be intentionally broken, etc. It’s a chapter that’s easy to overlook but provides answers to a lot of “little things” that might come up during a session.

Chapter 8 is “Combat” (29 pages). Combat is a major part of Pathfinder, and there’s admittedly a lot to digest in a short number of pages here. The way the chapter is laid out isn’t necessarily intuitive, and later Paizo products (like the Strategy Guide) do a much better job making combat clearer. You’ll find everything you need in this chapter, but you’ll be flipping back and forth for a while. I’ve been playing for years and I still refer to it occasionally.

Chapter 9 is “Magic” (19 pages). This chapter discusses different categories of spells, how characters learn them, and how to read a spell entry in the next chapter. It’s a chapter that’s easy to skip over at first, but is actually pretty important once a campaign gets serious.

Chapter 10 is “Spells” (156 pages). You read that right: about a quarter of the book consists of an alphabetical list and description of several hundred different spells! The spells have been cleaned up and improved from D&D 3.5 for better gameplay, but what hasn’t changed is that magic still rules. If pure power is what you want, play a true spell-caster and you’ll find it.

Chapter 11 is “Prestige Classes” (23 pages). Prestige Classes are special classes that characters can eventually take, well into their adventuring careers, if they meet certain prerequisites. This book has ten of them: Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster, Assassin, Dragon Disciple, Duelist, Eldritch Knight, Loremaster, Mystic Theurge, Pathfinder Chronicler, and Shadowdancer. For the most part, and until very recent, Pathfinder hasn’t been a game where prestige classes thrive. Apart from some specific flavour reasons, a character would usually be better off simply continuing in their base class rather than taking levels in a prestige class.

Chapter 12 is “Gamemastering” (15 pages). As its title indicates, this chapter helps the person running a game (the “Gamemaster” or “GM”) prepare an adventure, referee the rules, deal with common problems at the table, etc. It’s okay for what it is, but I’ve seen better resources to help new GMs figure out what they’re doing.

Chapter 13 is “Environment” (39 pages). This chapter contains a lot of little things to help make the setting interesting. It contains rules on weather, travelling through the wilderness, dealing with traps, and so forth. It’s primarily for the GM too and shouldn’t be a priority to master until more fundamental rules are digested.

Chapter 14 is “Creating NPCs” (11 pages). This chapter gives rules for creating background (non-player) characters by using “NPC classes” like a Commoner. I have to admit I never use this chapter, as I just rely on NPC stat blocks already generated in other Pathfinder products.

Chapter 15 is “Magic Items” (101 pages). Your adventurer is going to want some cool magic gear, and this chapter explains what it does, how much it costs, and how it’s made. It’s pretty extensive and detailed.

Last up, there are appendices summarizing “Special Abilities”, “Conditions” (status effects a character might be under), “Inspiring Reading”, and “Game Aids” (other products you can purchase).
The Core Rulebook is a hefty tome for an RPG book. For players coming from D&D 3.5, it’s basically a combination of the Player’s Handbook and the Dungeon Master’s Guide in a single volume, but refined and improved. The book is, with the single exception of the deities, completely “setting neutral” (that is, it’s suitable for play in any campaign world or a homemade setting). There’s some excellent artwork taken from other Paizo products mixed in with some artwork that’s more pedestrian. Still, the production quality overall is fantastic. I would normally go into more detail, but there are hard word counts on these reviews. So I’ll sum up by saying: this is the one book you won’t leave home without, and it’s worth every penny.

Special Note: The Core Rulebook was recently released in a smaller softcover. The interior is exactly the same as the sixth printing of the hardcover, but it’s lighter and easier to carry. I’ve been using it for a few months now, and I’m quite happy with the font size, reduced price, durability, and ease of use.

Pathfinder's Heart

5/5 —

This book is at the heart of all Pathfinder games. It is great and can be picked up regularly cheap with sales all over. (Humble Bundle 1$) I myself have a PDF but plan to pickup a hardcopy one day. Either one will do the trick and is always good to keep handy. I like the PDF because you can do keyword searches. Even if you don't ever use it. The cover art is pretty awesome.

A Fresh Start

5/5 —

After years of seeing the Pathfinder rule books on the shelves of my FLGS, I took the plunge in December of 2012. I bought the Core Rulebook and began skimming it immediately. My first discovery was the character creation rules. They were fun! Characters were cool in a way that I hadn't seen in previous editions of the world's oldest role-playing game. Within three months, I was up and running my first Pathfinder adventure. That was three years ago and I have no regrets getting involved with the Pathfinder system.

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3.5 Loyalist wrote:

"master craftsmen which lets you craft magic items in the sense of +1 to +(whatever) magical items. Really? So the blacksmith who has no exposure to or knowledge of the arcane pulls mystical energy from OUT OF NOWHERE and imbues the normal axe with magical power. Huge gap in logic there."

I really found that feat questionable. A quick way for chars to make magic items without a wizard, and for magic items to greatly increase in economies, because craftsman can now make them. What do the rest think? I keep it well away from my games. Don't forget Zhen, the rank also counts as caster level.

I don't care much for that one either, but stories where someone made a great weapon are a part of fantasy, even if the maker had no magical powers. A certain dwarf that was the friend of a certain drow made a certain weapon for a certain Barbarian named Wulfgar.

Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Would it help if we added "Elf only" to the requirements? Since they're good at magic and crafting and fighting and everything, after all. :)

Sarcasm Police reminds you: this is your strike one. On strike three we will burst thru the wall, hit you with desarcasmizing rays and you will lose your mojo. Consider yourself warned. No Sarcasm Vows, no Sarcasm Powers!

Sarcasm ain't a crime.

Show me your badge. What department did you say you were with again?
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Sarcasm ain't a crime.

Show me your badge. What department did you say you were with again?

Bah, another one who didn't watch Scott Pilgrim. :)

Yeah, I have. Wasn't that good though. Too trendy, in a word.
Grand Lodge

Poor Gorb, can't tell when I'm genuinely joking any more. :)
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Poor Gorb, can't tell when I'm genuinely joking any more. :)

My head is ... so ... confused ... must ... drink ... more ... coffee...

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC
Gorbacz wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Poor Gorb, can't tell when I'm genuinely joking any more. :)
My head is ... so ... confused ... must ... drink ... more ... coffee...

Yeah, you are looking rather deflated. Not that I'm interested in running into a perky bag of devouring, mind you ...

Seriously Guys are we still arguing about the rules after all this time..the rules are what they are..they won't be changing in the near future so just suck it up and play.

The time for these arguments is when 2nd ed goes to alpha test..in about 8 to 10 years time hopefully.

This is the place to discuss the product and its rules. I've heard others say, hey! no criticism here before.

And some of us don't want to just suck it up, accept the rules and play with them. Some of us what to find what is weak or a bit off, discuss it, change it and throw what we consider better into our games. They can certainly be changed, they don't have to be accepted.

For the greater good, and fun times without wrought.
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

This is the place to discuss the product and its rules. I've heard others say, hey! no criticism here before.

And some of us don't want to just suck it up, accept the rules and play with them. Some of us what to find what is weak or a bit off, discuss it, change it and throw what we consider better into our games.

For the greater good, and fun times without wrought.

Gosh, it is too darn bad that you didn't get your 50 cents in when the project was still in its Alpha or Beta phase where you might have been able to affect the outcome. Now it is just coming across as "sound and fury signifying nothing".

Complaining after the fact when the rules are set is a waste of your time to write and mine to read your complaints.

You would be better served coming up with house rules to fix the things you don't like and writing about those on the appropriate forum.

I don't care for many of the rules in the Core book either, but I don't complain about them here. I simply adjust them how and where I choose for my home campaign. I think the majority of persons do this as well.

But that is just MY two cents.

Well this thread is tied to the core book and the rules therein. I would assume some evaluation of its strengths and weaknesses would be appropriate. Of course saying things like, "Paizo should change X and Y." Are meaningless, but saying that the changes A and B that were made are not strengths of the system and are in fact a weakness, is appropriate when discussing this book and the rules therein.
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

This is the place to discuss the product and its rules. I've heard others say, hey! no criticism here before.

And some of us don't want to just suck it up, accept the rules and play with them. Some of us what to find what is weak or a bit off, discuss it, change it and throw what we consider better into our games. They can certainly be changed, they don't have to be accepted.

For the greater good, and fun times without wrought.

What is this Wrought you keep going on about..the dictionary definition of the word makes your use of it nonsensical

wrought

— vb
1. archaic a past tense and past participle of work

— adj
2. metallurgy shaped by hammering or beating
3. ( often in combination ) formed, fashioned, or worked as specified: well-wrought
4. decorated or made with delicate care

And for your information I would quite happily be playing 3.5 if it was a game system that was still being supported..but it isn't.

Wrought as it is used at the clubs I have attended (in Melbourne), is cheating, power-gaming, the breach of balance, finding or adopting new rules to take away class weaknesses (e.g. making wizards d6). In sum, something a dm should always be watching for. All new rules or rule-sets should be checked for wrought. Giving a class more and more is wrought, breaking a class so that it is not close to being balanced to other classes is also wrought. Prestige classes that give two levels of spellcasting every level is an example of wrought. Read back over the recent pages for more information.

It is used in the sense of: that is clearly wrought-there, you are trying to wrought the rules. So in a sense it is close to the metallurgy meaning, one hammers away at balance and forges wrought through cheating. One could also cheat at rolls and thereby wrought the outcome of the game.

Trying to start a game with an elven wizard with 30 int and a decent con is another example of wrought that I have seen. "Oh no, I rolled it and if I make him venerable he can start with 30 int, oh I also rolled an 18 con".
wraithstrike wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

"master craftsmen which lets you craft magic items in the sense of +1 to +(whatever) magical items. Really? So the blacksmith who has no exposure to or knowledge of the arcane pulls mystical energy from OUT OF NOWHERE and imbues the normal axe with magical power. Huge gap in logic there."

I really found that feat questionable. A quick way for chars to make magic items without a wizard, and for magic items to greatly increase in economies, because craftsman can now make them. What do the rest think? I keep it well away from my games. Don't forget Zhen, the rank also counts as caster level.

I don't care much for that one either, but stories where someone made a great weapon are a part of fantasy, even if the maker had no magical powers. A certain dwarf that was the friend of a certain drow made a certain weapon for a certain Barbarian named Wulfgar.

thats all good but the game has rules and authors can write whatever they want in novels. The game system itself has rules and there are short explanations from a logical standpoint for how and why a rule functions a certain way. Saying its a fantasy setting and using that to throw logic to the wind is really unsubstantiated.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Wrought as it is used at the clubs I have attended (in Melbourne), is cheating, power-gaming, the breach of balance, finding or adopting new rules to take away class weaknesses (e.g. making wizards d6). In sum, something a dm should always be watching for.

Thank you. I wasn't understanding your use of the word before. (As common as it might be in Melbourne, it's new to me here in the States.)

I think there's a distinction between a player trying to exploit the system -- cobbling together rules from various sources to build a synergy that the individual rule designers weren't intending -- versus a game design team making changes to suit a shared view of where the game ought to be going. The player probably doesn't have game balance in mind, other than tipping the scales as far as possible in his favor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
This is the place to discuss the product and its rules.

I concur completely and there are many discussions like this in the forums, especially the Rules forum. In fact, this is where I believe your review(s) would have been more appropriately placed.

Just a suggestion based on the thoughts you've expressed, your efforts would be better placed in offering House Rule ideas in the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum.

Best.
Chris Mortika wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Wrought as it is used at the clubs I have attended (in Melbourne), is cheating, power-gaming, the breach of balance, finding or adopting new rules to take away class weaknesses (e.g. making wizards d6). In sum, something a dm should always be watching for.

Thank you. I wasn't understanding your use of the word before. (As common as it might be in Melbourne, it's new to me here in the States.)

I think there's a distinction between a player trying to exploit the system -- cobbling together rules from various sources to build a synergy that the individual rule designers weren't intending -- versus a game design team making changes to suit a shared view of where the game ought to be going. The player probably doesn't have game balance in mind, other than tipping the scales as far as possible in his favor.

+1 on both points..

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer
Elorebaen wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
This is the place to discuss the product and its rules.

I concur completely and there are many discussions like this in the forums, especially the Rules forum. In fact, this is where I believe your review(s) would have been more appropriately placed.

Just a suggestion based on the thoughts you've expressed, your efforts would be better placed in offering House Rule ideas in the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum.

Best.

Yes, please. If everybody addressed everything they do or don't like about every given feat in this thread, it would become totally unnavigable fast. We have an entire forum set aside for discussing the game itself.

Zhen Yi Soh wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

"master craftsmen which lets you craft magic items in the sense of +1 to +(whatever) magical items. Really? So the blacksmith who has no exposure to or knowledge of the arcane pulls mystical energy from OUT OF NOWHERE and imbues the normal axe with magical power. Huge gap in logic there."

I really found that feat questionable. A quick way for chars to make magic items without a wizard, and for magic items to greatly increase in economies, because craftsman can now make them. What do the rest think? I keep it well away from my games. Don't forget Zhen, the rank also counts as caster level.

I don't care much for that one either, but stories where someone made a great weapon are a part of fantasy, even if the maker had no magical powers. A certain dwarf that was the friend of a certain drow made a certain weapon for a certain Barbarian named Wulfgar.

thats all good but the game has rules and authors can write whatever they want in novels. The game system itself has rules and there are short explanations from a logical standpoint for how and why a rule functions a certain way. Saying its a fantasy setting and using that to throw logic to the wind is really unsubstantiated.

Anyone can provide fluff/flavor. If you don't like the logic(fluff/favor) then change it so it makes sense.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Wrought as it is used at the clubs I have attended (in Melbourne), is cheating, power-gaming, the breach of balance, finding or adopting new rules to take away class weaknesses (e.g. making wizards d6). In sum, something a dm should always be watching for. All new rules or rule-sets should be checked for wrought. Giving a class more and more is wrought, breaking a class so that it is not close to being balanced to other classes is also wrought. Prestige classes that give two levels of spellcasting every level is an example of wrought. Read back over the recent pages for more information.

It is used in the sense of: that is clearly wrought-there, you are trying to wrought the rules. So in a sense it is close to the metallurgy meaning, one hammers away at balance and forges wrought through cheating. One could also cheat at rolls and thereby wrought the outcome of the game.

Trying to start a game with an elven wizard with 30 int and a decent con is another example of wrought that I have seen. "Oh no, I rolled it and if I make him venerable he can start with 30 int, oh I also rolled an 18 con".

I think you mean rort (as in rorting the system - trying to take unfair advantage of loopholes or unforeseen shortcomings in the rules).

Indeed. I have stuck primarily to 3.5 for rules and feats. Which is why I don't allow some of the feats from core like the new version of power attack. Its always been crucial to ensure a feat doesn't give too much or throws all sense of game mechanics to the wind. The same thing with raise dead in core. Permanent negative levels which can be removed. So its no longer really permanent as long as restoration is available? Yep changes like that that try to get around certain really punishing game mechanics persuade me to stick closer to 3.5. So its not so much change, more like remaining unchanged.

In the end it's up to you how you play the game.My preference( and that of my playing group) is for Pathfinder core and additions..what I object to is people telling me that I am in the wrong for choosing that..and that is what the core argument from 3.5 Loyalist seems to be.
The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

DM Wellard,

I concur that somebody telling me that my choice of game system is "wrong" would be all sorts of annoying.

The line between "These are my decisions, and this is why I made them" versus "These are the decisions you, too, should make" is sometimes a fine one, and comprised of tone-of-voice as much as actual rhetoric. It's always good for all of us to keep that in mind.

Speaking of which, I wonder how my Duskblade character in your DCC play-by-post campaign, Gashelle, would function as a Magus...

I think Gashelle would make a great Magus Chris..unfortunately that particular campaign died due to the fact that some people couldn't get their head around the Old School Dungeon Crawl ethos..

And I agree the interweb does not give itself to nuanced argument.
DM Wellard wrote:

I think Gashelle would make a great Magus Chris..unfortunately that particular campaign died due to the fact that some people couldn't get their head around the Old School Dungeon Crawl ethos..

I miss the dungeon crawl, you should restart it and add me!

Liberty's Edge
Tangible Delusions wrote:
DM Wellard wrote:

I think Gashelle would make a great Magus Chris..unfortunately that particular campaign died due to the fact that some people couldn't get their head around the Old School Dungeon Crawl ethos..

I miss the dungeon crawl, you should restart it and add me!

Oh god, me too! I miss old-school dungeon crawls.

Well I'm running 2 APs and will be adding a Third when Jade Regent commences so the Wilderlands game will be on the back burner for a long time

Is there an estimate as to when the next print will be run?
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Another week, another informative and balanced review...

"i can TRIP A GHOST"

"Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled."

Sigh.
Dark Archive

And don't forget you can grapple through a wall.
Grand Lodge

I feel your pain Gorb. It does read like someone who had a knee-jerk reaction and created an account solely for bashing.
The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Gorbacz, I agree that "e-unit" (no posts, 1 review) probably didn't read terribly carefully before posting. If he has any decency, I would hope that the ease with which you've addressed his central complaint might embarrass him into writing a more careful review.

But one of the citicisms of the product has been that various picky little rules are spread throughout the 500-page book. Combat is especially tricky subject for finding all the rules. Nothing on pages 198 - 201 restricts grappling to corporeal creatures, and ghosts do have a CMD of 22.

But, yeah, the grappling through a wall thing. I don't get that.
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:

Gorbacz, I agree that the reviewer probably didn't read terribly carefully before posting. If he has any decency, I would hope that the ease with which you've addressed his central complaint might embarrass him into writing a more careful review.

But one of the citicisms of the product has been that various picky little rules are spread throughout the 500-page book. Combat is especially tricky subject for finding all the rules. Nothing on pages 198 - 201 restricts grappling to corporeal creatures, and ghosts do have a CMD of 22.

I'm not seeing the criticism you are writing about. I'm seeing a kneejerk troll review. I do understand that you want to defend, justify and support negative reviews of Paizo products (I'm curious when Pres Man will pop up, he's on the same boat), but you're making yourself look as silly as the original reviewer, if not more.

Gorbacz wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Gorbacz, I agree that the reviewer probably didn't read terribly carefully before posting. If he has any decency, I would hope that the ease with which you've addressed his central complaint might embarrass him into writing a more careful review.

But one of the citicisms of the product has been that various picky little rules are spread throughout the 500-page book. Combat is especially tricky subject for finding all the rules. Nothing on pages 198 - 201 restricts grappling to corporeal creatures, and ghosts do have a CMD of 22.

I'm not seeing the criticism you are writing about. I'm seeing a kneejerk troll review. I do understand that you want to defend, justify and support negative reviews of Paizo products (I'm curious when Pres Man will pop up, he's on the same boat), but you're making yourself look as silly as the original reviewer, if not more.

You rang.

And I wouldn't be too critical of other's reviews, when your own review is lacking in significant detail.
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
pres man wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Gorbacz, I agree that the reviewer probably didn't read terribly carefully before posting. If he has any decency, I would hope that the ease with which you've addressed his central complaint might embarrass him into writing a more careful review.

But one of the citicisms of the product has been that various picky little rules are spread throughout the 500-page book. Combat is especially tricky subject for finding all the rules. Nothing on pages 198 - 201 restricts grappling to corporeal creatures, and ghosts do have a CMD of 22.

I'm not seeing the criticism you are writing about. I'm seeing a kneejerk troll review. I do understand that you want to defend, justify and support negative reviews of Paizo products (I'm curious when Pres Man will pop up, he's on the same boat), but you're making yourself look as silly as the original reviewer, if not more.

You rang.

And I wouldn't be too critical of other's reviews, when your own review is lacking in significant detail.

Hey, that's a review from back when I was short on time for things like that. I refer you to my Bestiary 2 and Inner Sea World Guide reviews for examples on how reviews can be written to make some sense.

But that's besides the point. While you're there, you might want to check my 1/2-stars (Memory of Darkness and City of Seven Spears) to see that I am capable of trashing a product, when I believe that I blew my hard earned cash on something not exactly usable. But I always try to show why exactly I think so (OK, MoD review is a bit of nerdrage, but it's only because it stopped me from running the otherwise cool campaign).

What I am incapable of is setting up a new account just to trash something. Basing on false points.
Paizo Employee Creative Director
wraithstrike wrote:
Is there an estimate as to when the next print will be run?

Not publicly, no.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
Gorbacz wrote:

I'm not seeing the criticism you are writing about. I'm seeing a kneejerk troll review. I do understand that you want to defend, justify and support negative reviews of Paizo products (I'm curious when Pres Man will pop up, he's on the same boat), but you're making yourself look as silly as the original reviewer, if not more.

I'm not justifying or supporting negative reviews. Look: a negative review, and I wasn't supporting it!

I am, rather, all about inviting new people into the Pathfinder community. Mr. "e-unit" probably paid good money for his copy of the rulebook. He was unhappy with, well, the rules as he read and understood them. Indeed, he was unhappy enough to get an account here and post a review. I would hope that engaging him and addressing his questions, as you sort of did, will retain him and people like him, better than dismissing them as easily as they dismiss the game rules.
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I'm not seeing the criticism you are writing about. I'm seeing a kneejerk troll review. I do understand that you want to defend, justify and support negative reviews of Paizo products (I'm curious when Pres Man will pop up, he's on the same boat), but you're making yourself look as silly as the original reviewer, if not more.

I'm not justifying or supporting negative reviews. Look: a negative review, and I wasn't supporting it!

I am, rather, all about inviting new people into the Pathfinder community. Mr. "e-unit" probably paid good money for his copy of the rulebook. He was unhappy with, well, the rules as he read and understood them. Indeed, he was unhappy enough to get an account here and post a review. I would hope that engaging him and addressing his questions, as you sort of did, will retain him and people like him, better than dismissing them as easily as they dismiss the game rules.

You know, if mr "e-unit" came here and voiced his concerns about the game first, I would be more than happy to engage his issues in my usual, snarky, borderline dismissive sarcastic manner.

However, he chose to communicate his problems by means of a 1-star "this game sucks" review, which means he's not looking for a constructive discussion. That, or he believes that walking into somebody's home and crapping on his carpet is a valid entry into a conversation.
Chris Mortika wrote:
But one of the citicisms of the product has been that various picky little rules are spread throughout the 500-page book. Combat is especially tricky subject for finding all the rules. Nothing on pages 198 - 201 restricts grappling to corporeal creatures, and ghosts do have a CMD of 22..

I would echo this sentiment. Navigating the rules has been my chief challenge as a new player. I think a big part of the issue is that there isn't much guidance after the character creation sections. I understand that players familiar with the genre can easily navigate the book. However without previously exposure, it is very easy to screw things up. Thankfully I'm the only new player in the group I play in. I imagine it would be quite easy to go crazy with a review off the cuff if I didn't have an undrestanding GM to explain things.

Gorbacz wrote:
Hey, that's a review from back when I was short on time for things like that.

I believe you can go back and edit past reviews if you feel you could improve it. Just something to consider.

I have yet to write a review for this product.

Can the review authorization committee let me know what the guidelines are, and exactly how many stars I'm allowed to rank the product?

Or do you folks just want to write the review for me? That way we can ensure that it meets your stringent criteria.
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Brian E. Harris wrote:

I have yet to write a review for this product.

Can the review authorization committee let me know what the guidelines are, and exactly how many stars I'm allowed to rank the product?

Or do you folks just want to write the review for me? That way we can ensure that it meets your stringent criteria.

Actually, a review made up of "it sucks" or "it's cool" would be fine. As long as you don't mention ghost trippin'.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Am I the only person wondering whether ghosts can make trip attacks with a +1 ghost-touch flail? According to the rule Gorbacz cited, no. According to common sense, why not?
Dark Archive

Ghost-touch equipment pretty much allows for any melee interaction (AH-HRRM!! No innuendos! ;D ) between material and incorporeal beings, even if I still have some trouble visualizing a character with an appropriate ghost-touch weapon tripping a ghost - think of the librarian woman from the first Ghostbusters movie, a floating torso figure with no legs or lower body whatsoever.
So a ghost wielding a ghost-touch flail (which interferes with its ability to move through walls and other major obstacles) would be able to trip a mortal being. A ghost simply wielding a ghostly flail, would just SWISH! through - even if a cunning telekinetic effect could be quite spectacular.

As a GM, I'd allow for sure a character with a ghost-touch armor that includes gauntlets to grapple a ghost, and viceversa. A scary experience in both occasions.
Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Yeah, the whole concept of incorporeal creatures gets pretty messy once effects show up that play with their incorporeality. Pathfinder doesn't have anything like them yet, but there were several spells in 3.5e that would force incorporeal cretures to be incorporeal, and ghost touch weapons and effects are along the same lines.

Great. So now I've got a corporeal ghost. What happens when you grapple something with no strength score that is no longer incorporeal? And can they still fly?

Lots of worms in that there can :)
Gorbacz wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I'm not seeing the criticism you are writing about. I'm seeing a kneejerk troll review. I do understand that you want to defend, justify and support negative reviews of Paizo products (I'm curious when Pres Man will pop up, he's on the same boat), but you're making yourself look as silly as the original reviewer, if not more.

I'm not justifying or supporting negative reviews. Look: a negative review, and I wasn't supporting it!

I am, rather, all about inviting new people into the Pathfinder community. Mr. "e-unit" probably paid good money for his copy of the rulebook. He was unhappy with, well, the rules as he read and understood them. Indeed, he was unhappy enough to get an account here and post a review. I would hope that engaging him and addressing his questions, as you sort of did, will retain him and people like him, better than dismissing them as easily as they dismiss the game rules.

You know, if mr "e-unit" came here and voiced his concerns about the game first, I would be more than happy to engage his issues in my usual, snarky, borderline dismissive sarcastic manner.

However, he chose to communicate his problems by means of a 1-star "this game sucks" review, which means he's not looking for a constructive discussion. That, or he believes that walking into somebody's home and crapping on his carpet is a valid entry into a conversation.

He gave reasons sir, but again you are dismissive of low score reviews.

His review though harsh and somewhat vague (regarding grappling through a wall etc.) may be because he's seen something that others have overlooked or it could be because of something else. Whatever it is, this is a forum on the discussion of the core rulebook, not a forum on praising the core rulebook to the sky.

The rational and logical thing to do would be to enquire where he read this instead of just outright dismissing it. It is indeed difficult to be tolerant of someone's criticism of a product you immensely like. But then again he might have a point. If you're dismissing it simply because of the low review score he gave, then maybe you shouldn't be on this forum. I look forward to him coming back and elaborating his argument on this forum.

Oh yeah, being snarky, dismissive and sarcastic is about the farthest thing from being objective and open-minded. It does however make you sound really lazy since dismissing an argument is always easier and more convenient than an actual discussion.
Scarab Sages

As you can't grapple through a wall (unless you just have a poor DM), and you can't trip a ghost (unless your DM doesn't know the rules), his claims that the rules are broken and poorly playtested seem to be the result of a misunderstanding, to say the least. I wouldn't be dismissive of his opinion, but I would not take it as a valid complaint either.
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The equalizer wrote:

His review though harsh and somewhat vague (regarding grappling through a wall etc.) may be because he's seen something that others have overlooked or it could be because of something else. Whatever it is, this is a forum on the discussion of the core rulebook, not a forum on praising the core rulebook to the sky.

The rational and logical thing to do would be to enquire where he read this instead of just outright dismissing it. It is indeed difficult to be tolerant of someone's criticism of a product you immensely like. But then again he might have a point. If you're dismissing it simply because of the low review score he gave, then maybe you shouldn't be on this forum. I look forward to him coming back and elaborating his argument on this forum.

Oh yeah, being snarky, dismissive and sarcastic is about the farthest thing from being objective and open-minded. It does however make you sound really lazy since dismissing an argument is always easier and more convenient than an actual discussion.

Ah, the 3.5 Loyalist/Equalizer posting duo. I'll just treat you both as a single entity for convenience.

The reviewer based his review on false statements. That's his only point in the review.
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