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Sorry for the necromancy here, but very curious about this too. I don't think it would double.

Jr. Annalist wrote:

Trample wrote:
Taking a look at a couple of SoD options like color spray and sleep I actually think P6 might even tip the scales in favor of casters. I could put together a fey sorcerer with the standard array that would have a DC18 sleep spell at level 1 (19 at 2 with a 20 and 21 for hideous laughter and deep slumber respectively). A gnome sorcerer could hit DC18 with color spray. All of these using core rulebooks. I can't imagine many opponents hitting those saves in those levels.

Is that a problem with any character that's optimized with a 20 in a stat in regular PF too? (How much damage can an optimized melee character dish out?) Right now I'm trying not to change the spells/class abilities/etc that show up at level 6 or lower -- but after it's played a while I can imagine some things showing up that might be worth considering. Would a suggested point buy that made 16+ ability scores more expensive be over-kill and not fix the problem that much?

Perhaps. Color Spray and Sleep are a couple of interesting examples of uber spells that fade pretty quickly with time, which P6 would eliminate. I'm not saying it's wrong or bad, but rather curious as to the impact and if P6 really tips the scales away from casters ruling the game.

Also, note my examples are standard array, so I'm thinking a 15 as the high stat before racial modifiers, so we're talking about a 17 starting stat (which actually makes my math wrong - sleep is DC17 at 1st, 18 at 3rd, and 19 at 4th).

One of the elements I think will make P6 nice is the class balance or even the rise of the martial characters as the premier heroes of the game. Having not tried it yet, but hoping to with our group, I got to thinking about that a bit more and I'm not sure. I'm curious about others experiences.

Taking a look at a couple of SoD options like color spray and sleep I actually think P6 might even tip the scales in favor of casters. I could put together a fey sorcerer with the standard array that would have a DC18 sleep spell at level 1 (19 at 2 with a 20 and 21 for hideous laughter and deep slumber respectively). A gnome sorcerer could hit DC18 with color spray. All of these using core rulebooks. I can't imagine many opponents hitting those saves in those levels. Normally these are focus spells because they fade with time but in P6 they are effective for the entire range of a campaign. Is that an issue or not really a problem?

Aelryinth wrote:

Having to spend a trait, feat and your race choice to make up for your choice of class is generally a very bad indicator of balance.


Maybe, but that means that wizards aren't balanced either since they need to go through similar hoops to bolster fort saves.

Ariantar wrote:
Thank you for the advice. As you can tell by my post it was post-game night last night, and I was a little frustrated.

You've had a lot of good advice here and I would be frustrated as well. Sometimes you just have bad luck. I had a gnome sorcerer once who started with a 20 CHA (20 point buy) and spell focus (illusion) to focus on color spray at early levels. I was only able to get that past saves a couple of times ever. Either a fudging DM or really bad luck.

After that I thought about making a sorcerer only focused on no save spells, but never did.

I focus on a mix of save targets with my current sorcerer, but have more reflex targets than any (normally augmented by dazing spell). I would agree persistent spell is an awesome metamagic addition.

williamoak wrote:
They're called Malvoso & The Shadowtones. Havent chosen their music style yet,

Lounge music of course:

http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/movies/the-blues-brothers/scmods/murph- and-the-magic-tones/

Add in Rakshasa eldritch heritage, which helps bypass magic detection as well. It also gives you some disguise, which is a nice thing to stack with bluff.

Jr. Annalist wrote:

Correct, they get to choose the higher level combat feat as part of taking the "Signature Combat Feat" feat. So it only takes that one slot to get the improved critical... assuming they had a 6 BAB at 6th level and then took the Combat Improvement epic feat.

I'll go back and look at the wording again to see if I can clarify that.

Thank you for the quick response. I'm looking forward to the full version. I do like the inclusion of many of the other feats and options in the other books and the 6th level cap limits the game-breaking combos to a large extent.

Great work!

A quick question on the signature combat feat - is it the intent that a character take this feat giving them the ability to take the higher level combat feat when the reach the proper level or is it the intent that upon taking this feat they immediately gain the higher level feat (such as improved critical)?

Ravingdork wrote:

Couple of recent threads got me thinking about save progression, and what good numbers would be at which levels.

For me specifically, I've made a 10th-level sorcerer/spy with +10/+8/+10 for his saves, which strikes me as a little low.

But not having thought too hard about it before, I'm beginning to realize that I don't know what a good target number would be. I've always either let them slide a bit, or shot for the stars.

That seems OK unbuffed. My 12th level sorcerer is +12/+9/+11 right now, so in the same ballpark.

Zhayne wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
I really wish there was a druid archetype that gave up Wild Shape completely for better spellcasting ...

Why? I would then want a wildshape spell.

Wizard waste so many spells on buffs to avoid death. Druids have great AC and saves. Not to mention that they have more than enough spells and spont summons.

I just don't like wild shape. It doesn't fit my image of what druids do/are. *shrug*

I agree 100%. Always thought I was the only one!

lucen_dacier wrote:

The Licktoad village gets a one-two punch: first it gets hit by skeletons offscreen, then it gets mopped up by the adventuring party.

The 1st book of Jade Regent gives you a map of the Licktoad village, and tells you what happened to the Licktoads before the PCs arrive to mop them up. There are a few inconsistencies, like how the goblins in Jade Regent aren't afraid of Gutwad's voice, and how the goblin heroes (the PCs from We Be Goblins) got killed by the skeletons. Guess we're supposed to ignore those bits!

If you want a map of the Licktoad village post-skeleton blitz and some information on what the Licktoads were up to after getting fireworks, it's worthwhile to pick up the first book of JR. If you want background and information about the Licktoads themselves, there's plenty more of that in We Be Goblins than in Jade Regent.

Good luck! Hope to hear more about this campaign.

Thanks for the info. I'll likely skip the Jade Regent piece and fill in the blanks myself. Since the goblins love raiding the whole tribe will be eager to test out their new horde of fireworks and, if they do enough damage, the humans will likely track down this menace. The challenge I'll have is sending the humans in sufficient visible force to ensure my Licktoad PCs flee that reprisal at some point so they can make their way to the Birdcrunchers.

morrissoftxp wrote:
oh, empowered doesn't add extra dice, it multiplies the result of the roll by 50% more so if it does 40 damage its empowered to be 60 damage.

Empowered increases the variable numeric effects by half, so it does add dice. 50% more dice to be exact. So if you cast a 10 dice fireball you would have normal damage of 10d6. Empowered would add a variable amount - 5d6. A maximized empowered fireball at 10 dice would be 60 damage (for maximize) + 5d6 (for empower).

I'm thinking about running a goblin crew beyond We be Goblins and We be Goblins Too but using both of those because the set the mood well. My main question is the space in between the two. Based on what I've read, the Licktoad village is destroyed in the first chapter of Jade Regent setting up the events in We be Goblins Too. I plan on having the Licktoads use the recently recovered fireworks to attempt to burn down a village (or Sandpoint)for which the humans we take revenge and attack the Licktoad encampment.

That should be fun to play out if I can convince my players to run at the right time. My question is - is there enough data in the first Jade Regent (maps, Licktoad description, etc...) to make it worth picking up to make this a better experience? How much is there that I can use?

Fun read - well done.

I'm surprised you didn't mention preferred spell. Although it requires heighten spell, and you don't like that for blasters, the flexibility on your spell list is very nice. Greater spell specialization gets you a bit of this too, but preferred doesn't require the casting time.

Also, for 2nd level spells you should consider burning arc as well. It's much more controllable in terms of shape than a fireball although it certainly isn't going to hit as many mooks - topping out a mere 4 at 13th level with intensify.

My arcane sorcerer's familiar just died a gruesome death on my way to 11th level. Now I have spells to pick and, after waiting a week, a new familiar to attract and replace the dust mephit.

Looking at both spell and familiar options I was wondering if anyone had played around with Elemental Aura on familiars? It seems you could use one of the several invisible at-will familiars to do some scouting, return, and have Elemental Aura applied. They can then fly back to the group of bad guys around the corner, and what then? The familiar is invisible and not attacking, but has say an acid aura surrounding it that will damage the bad guys at the beginning of the next turn. Does it count as an attack at that stage, negating the invisibility, and allowing them to move away?

If the familiar could sneak up there it would be a nice aura burst with a stagger, sicken, or fatigue effect. Maybe persistent applied as well. I think it likely counts as an attack however.

Marthkus wrote:

Wizard benefits more from a player's skill.
Sorcerer benefits more from a player's ability to build well.

This is the general consensus, but wrong I think. I believe the wizard is the easier class to play because of the longer term flexibility and knowledge skills which give them the ability to pull the right set of resources into the right situation. As others have pointed out, the wizard often still has enough spontaneous options to always have the old standbys available when necessary.

A sorcerer has to adapt to his situation with clever application of spells. True, good upfront building makes this easier to do, but far more skill is applied in my opinion to this task than to the extremely simple task of selecting a spell list for a particular and singular effort.

WalterGM wrote:
I have a mutt duelist + 3 other classes build

Did you miss a number there? the barbarian 1/ magus 2/ fighter 3 only gives you a +5 bab, which wouldn't qualify for duelist.

Marthkus wrote:

Martial Artist Monk with Dragon style and the weapon focus tree? Martial Artist eventually get energy drain immunity (late game) and can't tire by 10th.

I did that for an urban campaign with levels of urban ranger. Favored enemy is great for undead. Dragon style is not only nice for the damage, but also the movement in difficult terrain.

Improved initiative or toughness

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I really want to be a human with the arcane bloodline. What are those best at and how do I build the best one?

I'm playing one of these right now. Primary focus is control, but pretty well rounded in my opinion. I like dazing spell a lot, so have been using that with snapdragon fireworks for a bit, but will use it with ball lightning when I hit 12th (10th now).

Feats are for broad spellcasting capability and in this order - toughness, great fortitude, combat casting, spell penetration, improved familiar (dust mephit), improved initiative (bloodline), dazing spell. I'll get persistent spell at 11th and both quicken spell and focus (evocation) at 13th.

20 point buy was: s9, d12, c12, i12, wis8, cha20. I like social skills for sorcerer, so the int was important to me. I also like high DCs. You may be wiser buying an 18 in cha.

Spell selection is the big one here. Here's what mine looks like at 10th level (with all the human and arcane bonuses):

1- Identify, prot from evil, magic missile, mage armor, grease, silent image, snapdragon fireworks, mount

2 - invisibility, glitterdust, resist energy, create pit, levitate, mirror image, burning gaze

3 - dispel magic, haste, stinking cloud, fireball, aqueous orb, halt undead

4 - dimension door, summon monster IV, confusion, wall of ice, greater false life

5 - icy prison

That setup gives me a good spell for most occasions. the next two levels are a pretty big power boost with several additional spells and feats.

Xander_21 wrote:
I'm going to be playing a dwarven inquisitor wielding a dwarven LongHammer. Any recommendations would be appreciated! Thanks!

Kain from Hasslefree miniatures.

Should I take both sickening and dazing spell for my sorcerer, or is that over the top?

He's 9th (replacement for dead character) and will have Toughness, Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Improved Familiar, and Dazing Spell for sure. Then two of Great Fortitude, Combat Casting, and Sickening Spell.

Pharmalade wrote:

Incidentally, here's a fighter ENTIRELY focused on cleaving to level 12... (Almost. Just missing feats for 9th and 10th level pertaining to cleave.)

** spoiler omitted **

Isn't surprise follow through an orc racial feat?

Mir wrote:

Also, Trample, I am not so sure about about his wisdom. In one story, he was honestly surprised to find out that the Earth revolved around the sun. Because honestly: what does that have to do with catching criminals. No, he is an extremely well read savant that focuses intensely on study in order to facilitate his obsessions. Maxing out your knowledges (at least the key 4) would reflect that nicely.

Holmes is deep into a few very focused types of knowledge skills, but is absent many as well. In the books he is an expert at the various types of mud and clay around London. He has a deep knowledge of tabacco. He knows absolutely nothing about many things the average Englishman would know.

The way he analyzes problems lends itself to sense motive, perception, and survival (track) more than anything else. Those are wisdom-based skills. Holmes always observes what others only see (you could argue deep knowledge in certain areas helps here, but I would see ranks in knowledge - local filling this).

Rynjin wrote:
Get the Kirin Style Feats so you can add your Int mod to damage as well as Str

I think maybe snake style (although kirin is better fluff) and a massive sense motive (skill focus, alertness, trait) for Holmes. I think his wisdom is the primary trait rather than intelligence.

I think urban ranger (unarmed) with a couple of monk levels.

What would this look like with APG spells too?

STR Ranger wrote:
What are you 5 most Important skills you like and why?

Depends on what you want to do. My fighter does get 5 per level and acts as the party face and scout, so diplomacy and perception are maxed with acrobatics and stealth close behind. I have a few in climb, swim, survival, and engineering as well.

Grizzly the Archer wrote:

I wouldn't ever give up armor training for the +1atk/Dmg... Especially, with bravery tossed in there, and the weapon training for other weapons. You even said the other stuff from the weapon master wasn't that useful for you, so why go weapon master at all then? Only good thing beside the extra wt bonus would be the rerolls.

The armor training is difficult to give up. Although, as an archer, I hope to stay out of melee anyway, so I decided to live without it. The weapon guard bonus rarely comes up, but is very nice when it does. I never want to be without the bow.

I'm not making an argument that the WM is better, they both have their pros & cons. I chose the WM because the +1/+1 is worth it to me. It really adds up when you're using 4-5 arrows per round.

Grizzly the Archer wrote:

To be honest weapon master isn't that great for an archer, except if your trying to do a little extra damage. They get a reroll, and a crit bonus, which isn't that great for you since you won't crit often. Also, their AC bonus is only vs the exact weapon you use, so in that case it would be a longbow, which is worse than the archers AC bonus which is vs. all ranged attacks. Other than that, they can increase, once away or something like that, their crit multiplier. For a bow, it's already at x3. If you didn't kill them with that, the x4, isn't going to be much help. And even if then x4 does kill them, not a big deal since technically that is just the use of an extra arrow.

Just to get 1 more atk/Dmg, a retool ability, and a crit booster, is not enough to not go regular fighter for an archer. As for vs. the archer archetype, again depends, but I would say no go weapon master, only if my DM'ing didn't allow the gloves for the archer. If they did, then go archer.

I hear ya. I really do it for the extra to hit and damage. We don't allow the gloves for the archer, so between regular fighter and WM I go with the weapon master for the +1/+1 for the most part. The other stuff is nice, but probably not quite as nice as bravery/armor training. I'm not going to be as good in melee with my version of weapon training, but I'm OK with that.

Grizzly the Archer wrote:

If lots of open areas, go vanilla fighter.
If lots of dungeons, small areas, go archer.

Actually, I would go weapon master over either of these.

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DrDeth wrote:
Actually, archery builds suck from a teamwork standpoint. Sure, they deal out great damage, but what role do they fill?

Well, my straight fighter archer also servers as the party scout and diplomat. Maxed perception and stealth + darkvision for scouting (half orc) and is good in that area even without class skills. He has diplomacy as class through a trait and keeps it maxed as well. Int 12 + racial bonus per level gives him 4 skill points per level.

Other classes could be better with these skills, but in our party my straight fighter still has the best diplomacy and stealth.

drawesome1111 wrote:

Ok, looking to build an interesting Fighter.

Basics are: 20pt buy, Core rules only, Don Quixote Style(a bit mad, but loyal).

What are some good traits,feats,etc.


A bit late on this, but I built a character some time back modeled specifically on Don Quixote. He was actually a melee bard who thought he was a paladin. So in 3.0 or 3.5 (don't recall) his healing replicated lay on hands, heroism the aura, etc... He fought with a bastard sword (which was knightly) and shield. He was NG, but imitated paladin behavior in every way.

Awesome character, but one-shot-killed by a green dragon.

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Ashiel wrote:

Thirded. Immunity is immunity. Tireless rage doesn't make you immune to fatigue, it makes you not become fatigued in the first place. This makes you become fatigued even if it normally wouldn't, but immunity still prevents it outright.

I disagree. Furious finish basically says you're fatigued no matter what. It's a limiting mechanic that isn't intended to be bypassed by a lame exception, which is, in my opinion, a bit of a lame bypass for fatigue immunity anyway. Not as bad as rage cycling, but still lame.

Thorkull wrote:

I detest gnomes. I refuse to play one and I constantly mock them when I play. Why? There's nothing that gnomes bring to the table that another race doesn't do better.

1. Want to be small and sneaky? Play a halfling.
2. Want to be an underground dweller, perhaps with a penchant for things mechanical? Play a dwarf.
3. Want to be in touch with nature and magic? Play an elf.

They're worse than Jawas!

Gnomes make excellent sorcerers! The only competition they have there are humans with the favored class bonus - but I prefer gnomes with sorcery. The con bonus is a huge addition to the cha bonus for gnomes.

I had a gnome sorcerer who was a cunning linguist (gift of tongues) with maxed bluff and diplomacy (infernal) and with a handful of languages you can befriend or pursuade anyone!

Pyromaniac is awesome for a crossblooded blaster and the +1 DC for illusions comes in handy for your more sublte casters.

They're awesome sorcerers!

I have a martial artist 4/urban ranger 3 in CotCT right now who will take the rest of his levels in martial artist. He's also the party rogue, so the ranger 3 helps there (in addition to improved natural attack). He's in good shape but is just waiting for the belt of str and amulet of natural armor! I haven't had a chance to get those.

In running him, I don't think so far that he's been underpowered from a bonus feat standpoint (dodge and deflet arrows so far). I also don't think the missed feat at 8 will be missed much - you get a lot at level 8.

Zimax wrote:
and the 1.5 Str mod to my natural attacks, causing power attack to buff me at a -1/+3 ratio.

This is the only bit you're doing wrong. The dragon style modifier doesn't impact the PA modifier, so you should still be at -1/+2 there.

Rapthorn2ndform wrote:
I don't see why not. But only the initial attack would get the extra damage dice.

I agree that only the initial attack would get the extra dice, just wondering with all the restrictions on vital strike.


Can a vital strike which brings an opponent to zero trigger cleaving finish?

Name Violation wrote:
you want this rage power

Yup, body bludgeon for a level 14 titan mauler to act as one size category higher.

Anyone out there have experience with this prestige class? It seems like it might be nice for a 3 level dip for certain melee classes. In those 3 levels you gain d6 sneak, dirty fighting, a lot of class skills, and flag of convenience (good for the +2 bluff checks and no leadership penalties). The dirty fighting is nice - +2 to all combat manuevers, no improvised weapon penalties, and special crit conditions (most of which are pretty good - especially against casters).

I'm thinking it would be nice for a sword & board guy (6th level ranger, 3 level templar), which would give you the sneak on the twf as well as +2 to bull rush. It might also be good for a two weapon fighter with two weapon feint for the +2 bluff and the sneak. If you had a high-crit twf (kukris), the dirty fighting could give you a great chance to keep at least one condition on an opponent for the entire encounter - there's no save. The +2 combat manuevers is nice for several builds.

He also picks up heavy armor and martial weapons, which could be nice depending on original class. The +1 hit, damage, and will saves vs. CE outsides could be nice if you have demons in your campaign.

Mounted combat is a bit of a downside, but other than that qualification isn't difficult.

Anyway, just wondered if someone had tried it out.

Stephan schmitz wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:
"Pounce works with all weapons, manufactured or not. You CAN´T take ITERATIVE ATTACKS with a pounce, of course, and in most cases that won't be an option anyway since the vast majority of creatures that have pounce are not manufactured weapon users."

While I get the argument to restrict this to natural weapons, I don't see where the iterative attacks element of this is supported in the rules anywhere. True, most critters with pounce don't have iterative attacks, but to put the "of course" in here is confusing to me. Am I missing something?

It's OK if you're in the right mindset. We had a period where we couldn't decide what we wanted to do next and nobody was itching to DM, so we went through this and swapped DMs every time we hit a new section. Some of the sections were fun, some less so. We didn't finish, but got to maybe 15th level or so.

If you have a group that can have a lot of fun with intra-party interactions you can have fun with it but it doesn't have a plot that will pull you through if you don't enjoy that sort of thing.

Yeah, you guys have hit on both sides of the thought process here and I can see both paths as reasonable. I agree it'll be a GM call until it hits the FAQ. The interest here is that a multiclassed martial artist can benefit from the ability if the second option doesn't require a check, but doesn't get much if it does (depending on levels in another class) since it scales with monk level.

And no, it's not a multiclass with barbarian!

16 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Does the second option of this martial artist ability require the monk to make a wisdom check to be successful?

This part: A martial artist may instead use this ability as a swift action to analyze the movements and expressions of one creature within 30 feet, granting a bonus on Sense Motive checks and Reflex saves and a dodge bonus to AC against that opponent equal to 1/2 his monk level until the start of his next turn.

calagnar wrote:

Huntroll wrote:
I'm planning to take Power Attack and Weapon Mastery at lvl 3, and War Sight and Improved Initiative around lvl 5-7.

Never ever take power attack unless your using it to get combat maneuvers. It is a wasted feet for a 3/4 BAB melee character. The amount of times this is useful for this type of build is very low.

Power attack is a positive dpr for this character.

Fighter (weapon master or maybe mobile fighter) with a 2-3 level dip into maneuver master monk to pick up the flurry of manuevers focused on tripping. Pick up the tripping staff series as well.

Cheapy wrote:

There's a feat that requires channel smite, but gives wis to hit with your deity favored weapons. Iori in golarion has unarmed strike as his.

Sense also add wis to hit.

APG halfling racial bonus gives you 1/2 stunning fists.

How does the mantis style look? Nice bonuses? Reasonable prereqs?

Joachim wrote:
Are the wild-blooded abilities available using eldritch heritage? They are part of an archetype, so I would be interested to see if they are available for that particular feat chain.

Hmmm, don't know actually. I hadn't looked at it that way. It sure doesn't seem unbalancing, but I don't know if it's RAW.

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