Couple of recent threads got me thinking about save progression, and what good numbers would be at which levels.
For me specifically, I've made a 10th-level sorcerer/spy with +10/+8/+10 for his saves, which strikes me as a little low.
But not having thought too hard about it before, I'm beginning to realize that I don't know what a good target number would be. I've always either let them slide a bit, or shot for the stars.
Classic NPC opponent:
Assume 13th level opponent (CR 12)
7th level spells
Starting casting score: 17
3 bumps to casting score
+2 item
Total Casting Score: 22
Add spell focus
Thus, assume top DC of 24 vs, say, Finger of Death
So 65% failure rate with +10 save vs. an off the shelf NPC.
However, an quick bestiary 1 survey indicates typical saves 2 to 5 points lower for most critters at CR 12 (DC 19-22)
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Unbuffed, that seems okay. Your 10th level sorcerer could cast heroism to be sitting relatively pretty at +12/+10/+12.
It's quite difficult to make all your saves unbeatable, but a good hope would be to save against the worst things thrown at you roughly half the time. If your other party members are made that way, chances are half of you save to the bad stuff.
Not a deeply researched answer RD but, I looked at your total then dug out two PC sheets at L10 I had laying around. Your total was -2 and -4 off them respectfully and neither was built for saves (the -2 was another weak/weak/strong save class), so yeah, those look a little low to me, probably -3 to -6 below what an optimized build would pull.
I look for: Strong save 1:1.25 of level, weak saves, minimum 1:0.75 of level (with hopefully much higher); for example my level 16 fighter has 22/14/13 for saves, which always make me cringe. I don't like rolling into a fight with something that casts DC 27 hold monster with +13 will. If you can get 1:1.5 and 1:1 ratio you're doing alright in my books.
Also, which save it is dramatically changes how I feel about it, as most reflex saves can be defeated with another number, hitpoints. High hitpoints and reflex doesn't matter as much, low and it becomes more important. Fort and Will are always important saves, no matter the fight situation.
And to top it all off, level matters as well, if you're level 7 + you have to start being more aware of saves than lower level, as nastier things like hold and phantasmal killer are going to start creeping in. Level 15+ they better be a priority.
Using that, I'd peg a 10th level sorcerer saves at +8/8/12, with hopefully +10/10/15, and I'd weigh fort heavier for hopefully a +12. Your DM makes a difference as well, as a lot of older or more experienced DM's running casters are less likely to throw will save spells at casters expecting you to have a good will save (which for wizards and sorcerers isn't always the case, as they often neglect that particular save and find out later that it has ended up quite low). Sorcerers and wizards tend to have low wisdom and stay away from iron will, making them surprisingly soft targets for will saves sometimes.
I've got an unoptimized magus at level 7 with +8/+8+/8, so it might be a bit low.
Couple of recent threads got me thinking about save progression, and what good numbers would be at which levels.
For me specifically, I've made a 10th-level sorcerer/spy with +10/+8/+10 for his saves, which strikes me as a little low.
But not having thought too hard about it before, I'm beginning to realize that I don't know what a good target number would be. I've always either let them slide a bit, or shot for the stars.
That seems OK unbuffed. My 12th level sorcerer is +12/+9/+11 right now, so in the same ballpark.
Unbuffed, that seems okay. Your 10th level sorcerer could cast heroism to be sitting relatively pretty at +12/+10/+12.
It's quite difficult to make all your saves unbeatable, but a good hope would be to save against the worst things thrown at you roughly half the time. If your other party members are made that way, chances are half of you save to the bad stuff.
The numbers above include a cloak of resistance +2 AND the heroism spell, which I have up all day with the extend spell feat...
Its not below average.The fort save is actually quite good for a Sorcerer. You have +3/+3/+7 base +4 from cloak and Heroism. At best I would expect +12/+12/+12 with traits and a +3 cloak.Beyond that you would probably need to spend feats to increase them.
Though my Fortitude save is above average for a sorcerer, I imagine my Will save is below average. Not too concerned about Reflex, since most Reflex saves only lead to hp damage, unlike the other two, which can take me out of the fight on a bad roll (or worse, turn me against my own).
12 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Wis.
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Let's take a level 10 sorcerer as in RD's example.
Base is 3/3/7.
Normal stats would include DEX 14, CON 14, Wis 8.
Adjusted to 5/5/6.
Cloak of resistance +3 is only 9k, but things like Cloak of Flash and Shadow or Cape of the Mountebank may be more tempting.
Assuming you get the resistance item,
8/8/9.
Now, your saves should apparently be the same number as your level as discussed. Extended Heroism gives 10/10/11 which is fine. It unfortunately needs the feat which is not always ideal for a Sorcerer and it requires a spell slot. At level 10 you only have 3 spells, more if human, but still, you are going to have to neglect Haste or Fly or Fireball or something else vital.
Heroism isn't even worth using the feat and extra level on. Extend Spell doubles the duration. Normal duration is 10xlevel minutes, 100, and extend doubles that to 3 hours 20 minutes. Is that really worth a feat and a higher level?
The point is that you can buff your saves to this 'acceptable' number, but I am not sure it isn't biting into your usefulness as a Sorcerer too much. Sorcerers are meant to be offensive, is a 10th level Sorcerer with only 2 other 3rd level spells not a bit restricted?
Also, pages of spell knowledge.
At 10th level, they've allowed me to get the following spell list...
5th – lesser astral projectionUM M, telekinesisB
4th – acid pitAPG B, bestow curseB, dimension doorB, greater invisibility, scryingF (no focus), vitriolic mistUM B
3rd – dispel magicB, gaseous form, heroismB, major image, nondetectionM
2nd – acid arrowB, blindness/deafness, detect thoughts, false life, invisibilityB, knock, misdirection, pyrotechnicsB, rope trickB, shatter
1st – charm person, comprehend languagesB, corrosive touchUM B, detect secret doors, disguise self, feather fallB, identifyB, mage armorB, magic aura, magic missileB, memory lapseAPG, sculpt corpseAPG B, shieldB, ventriloquism, vocal alterationUM
0 – acid splash, arcane mark, corrosive touchUM B, detect magic, ghost sound, light, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation
...without having to resort to favored class bonuses.
Someone did a chart of all the monsters in B1 and it had all the stats including save DC's but I can't find it here. Does anyone else have it add it will help determine what sort of level we should be aiming at.
My CoL, level 13, spends 2500gp's in potion/wand buffs every session pre-combat. Some of that does increase my saves and I have 4 levels of paladin and 3 of monk! You just can't have higher enough saves at that level assuming you want to live.
Unbuffed f 14, r 12, w 19
Buffed f 20, r 18, w 25 and I still don't feel safe!
If you want a cheap-ish source of saves, go for Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone. 4000 gp, +1 competence bonus to saves.
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That is a lot of spells, wow.
Arcane bloodline: Bonus Spells: identify (3rd), invisibility (5th), dispel magic (7th), dimension door (9th) plus 1 more 4th level spell from the 9th level power.
Without the favoured class you have:
0th - 9 Sorc/10 you - 1 more than normal
1st - 6/15 - 9
2nd - 5/10 - 5
3rd - 4/5 - 1
4th - 4/6 - 2
5th - 1/2 - 1
Which adds up to 0 for the cantrip as you can't get pages of spell knowledge for them, but
1st - 9,000gp
2nd - 20,000
3rd - 9,000
4th - 32,000
5th - 25,000
Plus a +3 cloak of resistance (9,000) adds up to 104,000gp.
Now I appreciate this is a home game and so WBL of 10th level is not a hard and fast rule, but that is 62,000 so your Sorcerer has vastly more money than that. And this is if you have no other items.
It's cool, and your Sorcerer is a lucky rich boy, but it illustrates that most people won't have anywhere near that amount of cash, so their saving throws etc are not going to be as good, hitting 10s will be hard.
To be fair, the Heroism page of Spell Knowledge alone only costs 9,000gp and is probably a good investment. You still need to cast the extended version 4 times a day out of your 5+ CHA 4th level slots to have all-day protection, which is itself a huge investment.
My point is, can an AP approved 15 point buy character with average WBL get the 'minimum' saving throws without crippling themselves in other areas? I fear not.
Depends on the class. Druids, clerics, monks and paladins tend to have adequate saves for a fairly low investment.
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She has Craft Wondrous Items, and so is able to make them at cost. She is well within her WBL. I have spreadsheets that show this to be true.
You can see the full character write up here if you wish. Also a good place to double check the character for errors (mathematical or otherwise_)
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Yeah, sure, a level 10 Paladin will make 10/6/10 with no investment and average stats aside from a pretty sensible CHA of 16. Monks should have 2/3 at 10 with no effort.
Add Ranger and raging Barbarian to your list, Matthew.
Perhaps Sorcerer is an odd case and outlier because none of the save stats are primary. RD's example is one which can do defence and make saves, at the expense of not having enormous offensive power. It's a balancing act.
RD, I am not looking to check you for accuracy, I have seen how many superb builds you make and I understand your system mastery.
I was just analyzing it becuase the defensive costs struck me as eating into offensive power for my tastes, but that is why we make our own characters, it is about how one wants to play them.
I'd just have one more shooty and cheaper at the expense of some saves and defence
Then inevitably have to roll up a new character ten minutes later.