P6 Codex - E6+Pathfinder


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Sovereign Court

I'm a huge fan of E6 but for Pathfinder I've always preferred P8.

Lots of classes get capstone like abilities at 6th/8th, 8th level gets you an attribute point and there's very few problematic 4th level spells.

One of the few issues I have with P8 over 6 though is 3/4 BAB classes getting the extra attack.

Grand Lodge

The BAB thing is why I go with E7, that said, there is no reason you can't tweak E8 to say BAB advancement stops at level x, HP advancement stops at level y.

As for Level 8 being the level where good stuff happens for many classes, I think its level 7 rather than level 8. The level 8 stuff? We can use a feat to buy the individual level 8 class features as needed at that point.


for simplicity's sake i'd advise against "BAB advancement stops at level x, HP advancement stops at level y."

I like martials getting 2 attacks and keeping 3/4 and 1/2 classes seperate. you can always TWF to get 2 attacks. Monks can flurry, Magi can spell combat. druids can wildshape.

I like P6 and using the Epic/Signature feats to sprinkle in levels 7-8.
I like the idea of allowing a signature feat at every 5th epic advancement.


though the ability point at 8th would be nice to round up the odd score


Gack -- a busy few days and now I'm way behind here.

Sandbox wrote:
Maybe see what is achievable by a rogue optimized for lock picking and set the highest DC's around that?

That sounds right to me.

Valfen wrote:


1) The idea of Signature feats is excellent, but given the power discrepancy between some of them, this needs a bit more work. Maybe one feat every five epic ranks ?

I'm definitely thinking about this, and it might help solve some things other people have been asking for without getting too much power/power-creep. At the least I think I'll put that in as an explicit option.

Valfen wrote:

2) Speaking of Intrinsic Bond : it's broken for Druids, allowing them access to 7th level Large Animal Companions. <snip> With the Boon Companion feat around, it could be broken for everyone with access to an animal companion. <snip>

Greater Bond is the other way around. Compared to Boon Companion (which admittedly isn't core, but damn tempting), it's absolutely useless for animal companions, and only useful for familiars (<snip>
From a design standpoint, this is annoying to solve.

Greater Bond is what gives the large animal companions to Druid's though (since that comes at 7th level) so it isn't entirely useless for them. For Rangers, the jump from EL3 to EL4 is pretty good for their animal companion..

So, for Intrinsic Bond and Druids, the primary benefit is going to 7HD, +5 BAB from 6HD, +4.

Is it that 7th or 8th level Druids in Pathfinder are broken due to the animal Companion? Or that an 8th level Druid's animal Companion is broken in a world of (basically) 7th level max fighters? If the former, then the entire foundation of the ideas for the abridged version of the Codex (that PF Core is vaguely balanced through 7th level is shot) takes a hard shot. If its the later, then would making it either 7HD or +5BAB (and not both) fix it? Is that worth the added complexity?

At present I'm only looking at feats in Advanced and Ultimate sources for the full P6 Codex. I think I'd be leaning against including Boon Companion even if it were in one of them.

Valfen wrote:
3) The Rogue at the very least (but possibly other 3/4 BAB classes) absolutely needs something to help it in the Two Weapon Fighting department. In a P6 context, its otherwise even more useless for them than in standard PF.

That's another one where the problem would be with Core Pathfinder itself... and, for the abridged anyway, I'm trying to avoid changes to it. I'll look into it for the full rules I'm working on. What makes it worse for a 6th level Rogue with 5 epic feats in P6 as compared to a 7th level Rogue in standard Pathfinder.

Valfen wrote:
4) There's a very annoying amount of Feats (mostly for combat maneuvers) with a BAB +6 prerequisite, making them lie on the wrong side of the fence for 3/4 BAB characters. This is made worse by the fact that a huge number of said feats would be thematically appropriate (no Greater Dirty Fighting for your Rogue, nor Greater Grapple for your Monk, for example).

Would a signature feat that let a character with a +5 BAB take one of those +6 BAB feats fix it (possibly if coupled with additional signature feats every 5 or 10 epic advancements)? That would keep with the spirit that they wouldn't normally get those feats until 8th level.

Quote:
5) ...Skillfullness/Toughness...

That's the winner for the most criticized part of the Beta version. I'm working on polishing that up for the revised-Beta version.

Quote:
6) There's a lot of minor other points that would fall more under editing/streamlining/minor balancing rather than real concerns. If interested, let me know.

I've got some more editing changes of my own to put in, and think I've bribed a friend with professional technical writing experience to help find some more of the obvious other gaps, so it's probably easiest to hold off on that.

On the other hand, I appreciate all of your other points (they're the kind I'm looking for) and would certainly be interested in your minor balancing issues.

Thank you very much!

Sandbox wrote:

I like the idea of allowing a signature feat at every 5th epic advancement.

though the ability point at 8th would be nice to round up the odd score

I'm definitely finding some appeal in the extra signature feats (every 5th? 6th? 10th?), as a specified optional rule if nothing else.

One of the things I like about the two epic ability feats (that basically come straight from the original E6) is that they give 2 points instead of 1. That removes the need to try and figure out how to optimize which ability scores are even and which are odd on character creation.

VanceMadrox wrote:
Lots of classes get capstone like abilities at 6th/8th, 8th level gets you an attribute point and there's very few problematic 4th level spells.
Helaman wrote:
As for Level 8 being the level where good stuff happens for many classes, I think its level 7 rather than level 8. The level 8 stuff? We can use a feat to buy the individual level 8 class features as needed at that point.

I'm hoping that my set up of having a set of 5 or so epic feats come close to duplicating 7th level, and getting an 8th level power through a signature feat takes care of those concerns at least a little bit.


I'm glad to hear my feedback is useful. :)
Just to help me think in the right direction, I understand and fully support your design intent to first do a Core only P6 ruleset, but what do you plan to include later besides other classes ? Archetypes, expanded feat lists ?

Apologies in advance for the incoming wall of text. In the following, assume that everything I boldly declare from a DPR/Combat standpoint has at least some maths to back it up and isn't pulled out of nowhere :

"Jr. Annalist wrote:
Greater Bond is what gives the large animal companions to Druid's though (since that comes at 7th level) so it isn't entirely useless for them. For Rangers, the jump from EL3 to EL4 is pretty good for their animal companion..

Ack. I missed that. It's even worse then, because the Druid can have both a Large companion and Domain Mastery or Master of Forms.

Quote:
Is it that 7th or 8th level Druids in Pathfinder are broken due to the animal Companion? Or that an 8th level Druid's animal Companion is broken in a world of (basically) 7th level max fighters? If the former, then the entire foundation of the ideas for the abridged version of the Codex (that PF Core is vaguely balanced through 7th level is shot) takes a hard shot. If its the later, then would making it either 7HD or +5BAB (and not both) fix it? Is that worth the added complexity?

Core Druids are powerhouses, and there's not much you can do about that in a P6 context. Large animal companions are the main offender here, especially with the access to pounce capable ones. This gives druid the choice between being DPR machines (rivaling or even exceeding martials) or support caster, with the luxury of switching styles when needed with barely any loss in effectiveness.

If you look for balance, however subjective that may be, I think it would be fair to disallow or reduce the effect of large animal upgrades.
If you look for simplicity, nothing has to be changed, and we accept the possibility of borderline broken druids as an unfortunate side effect of the core rules.

For what it's worth, I lean toward simplicity. It should be mostly fine anyway. I'm more wary of unintended consequences further down the line (maybe with the Summoner, for example) that would force a change in the existing rules.

Quote:
At present I'm only looking at feats in Advanced and Ultimate sources for the full P6 Codex. I think I'd be leaning against including Boon Companion even if it were in one of them.

AFAIK, it's legal for PFS play. If no changes are made to the already existing P6 epic feats, better not to talk about Boon Companion, I agree. Let's limit the large animal companions only to the Druid, and specific groups can move the cursor as they see fit as houserules through this feat.

Quote:
That's another one where the problem would be with Core Pathfinder itself... and, for the abridged anyway, I'm trying to avoid changes to it. I'll look into it for the full rules I'm working on. What makes it worse for a 6th level Rogue with 5 epic feats in P6 as compared to a 7th level Rogue in standard Pathfinder.

I'll grant you that they are equally ineffective in combat. :P

However :

Quote:
Would a signature feat that let a character with a +5 BAB take one of those +6 BAB feats fix it (possibly if coupled with additional signature feats every 5 or 10 epic advancements)? That would keep with the spirit that they wouldn't normally get those feats until 8th level.

Besides Greater Maneuver feats and Lunge (more tactical diversity), from a damage standpoint, this effectively gives 3/4 BAB classes access to Manyshot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Vital Strike. This ups their damage by roughly 25%, but it's not nearly enough to make them compete with full BAB classes. Less stat spread and better hit make martial classes by far the most effective at killing things with weapons.

However, access to these combat feats helps the Rogue the most, especially for two weapon combat, closing a lot of the gap with strength rogue, and making them way less useless in combat when compared to other classes.

As such, I strongly suggest introducing such a feat. It solves a lot of potential issues with regard to balance and diversity.

Quote:

5) ...Skillfullness/Toughness...

That's the winner for the most criticized part of the Beta version. I'm working on polishing that up for the revised-Beta version.

I really think making them open-ended is the way to go. Way simpler to explain, and given the constraint of an E6/P6 context, everyone will take them eventually, even if they have a hard-cap, because HP and skill points are very valuable assets. Making them open-ended helps furthering the feeling of progression, albeit slower, that the original E6 paradigm strived for.

Quote:
I'm definitely finding some appeal in the extra signature feats (every 5th? 6th? 10th?), as a specified optional rule if nothing else.

I think a 1,5,10... pattern would be fine. I also strongly think it should be "core" to P6. Otherwise some signature choices are vastly better than the others, which in return asks for system mastery. I'm almost sure that's not something you find desirable for P6 (I know I don't).

Quote:
On the other hand, I appreciate all of your other points (they're the kind I'm looking for) and would certainly be interested in your minor balancing issues.

They would fall more into the streamlining category per se, but here you go :

Spoiler:
  • Combat Improvement could have a BAB +4 prerequisite. Helaman's idea of a 3/5/7 BAB spread helps differentiate classes. and is a very good concept I've rallied to since he first introduced it in a very old E6 thread.
  • Epic Performer should give a flat +1 bonus to Perform and Epic Woodcraft a flat +1 to Survival. Needless complications to reduce the effectiveness of a feat when taking another feat is bad design. (Especially when said feat is supposed to boost a point where the class is supposed to be awesome at anyway, yet narrow enough to not unbalance anything or steal spotlight.)
  • Extra Skill Capacity : I strongly second the 1+Int skill point bonus suggestion.
  • Skillfullness/Toughness : Did I mention making them open-ended ? :P
  • Greater Spell Casting : I think the wording could be simplified by granting a 4th level spell slot (without any 4th level spell known) where appropriate.
  • Legendary Craftsman opens up a lot of magic items previously unattainable. Such as belts/headbands of stat +2/+4/+6 or +3 furious weapons. Is this fully intended in the design paradigm you intend for P6 ? Thanks to the WBL guidelines, this is likely not a problem and injects diversity (and ingame justification for it) in magic itemisation, but I think it bears mentioning nonetheless.
  • Spells and Magic section : The warning about 3rd level Bard spells can probably be generalized to something like "if a spell would be 4th level on the spell list of a Cleric, Druid or Wizard, it's never a valid choice". I know that's basically what it says, but I get the feeling it could be conveyed in a more concise way by making the wording broader (and thus preparing for the future hybrid classes) and give the bard as a specific example.

Besides the two bolded points, I don't see any other major issues. The boundaries of your design space are well-thought and otherwise well implemented, without loss of focus or coherence. If I were to play E6 again, I'd use these rules almost as is already.

Sovereign Court

So if I understand this correctly your format is normal up to 6th level, feats to get 7-8th level abiltiies and allow a character to get one final ability normally gotten at levels 9-10?

Sovereign Court

How does this work for Prestige classes?


Valfen wrote:
Just to help me think in the right direction, I understand and fully support your design intent to first do a Core only P6 ruleset, but what do you plan to include later besides other classes ? Archetypes, expanded feat lists ?

My goal for the "unabridged" P6 Codex is to provide a single supplement with the abridged rules plus all the things in the Advanced and Ultimate books that seem to supplement the gaming feel of the core classes, without adding too much complexity or power creep. (I'm picturing it as the parts of the A&U that a person who liked the core would generally have no problem with).

The current draft/outline has a few selected (modified) archetypes for some classes and substitution options for others. For places where the number of skills and weapons change the archetypes seem better. When its just a different performance (or whatnot) why not just make that an option? I've got a few classes basically finished and notes on the rest. (At least mental notes -- laptop stolen at the beginning of the summer had everything including the first version of the abridged. Much better at backing up now!)

For the extra A&U classes it would only contain the Magus (fighter/magic user) and not the others that stretch beyond the basic feel. Materials for including the rest (summoner, gunfighter, whatnot) will be in two supplements "Gunsmoke" and "Apocrypha".

The standard P6 Codex would also contain almost all the relevant spells; the feats that don't seem too power creepy, arbitrary, or complicated (I dislike a lot of the racial feats, performance feats seem a step too far); the new weapons; the new combat maneuvers; and a few other odds and ends. I'm also leaning towards including boxes in the text that gives a very brief mention of the A&U material I left out and where it can be found.

It will also have a few things to address some pet-peeves of mine since 3.0: smoothing out some of the oddness in multi-classing saves and BAB, a d6 low BAB cleric, rules for non-combat NPCs (so the worlds best radish farmer can stink at fighting), and a revised expert class.

I have inklings of other supplements for things outside of A&U after that (more spells, archetypes, and feats? optional gestalt rules? etc...), but am currently thinking of tackling some tools to help those running games. Things like recruiting some reviewers of published adventures appropriate for P6 (for reviews including whatever slight modifications they need) and tools like nicely arranged lists of magic items that exist in the game.

Valfen wrote:
I'm more wary of unintended consequences further down the line (maybe with the Summoner, for example) that would force a change in the existing rules.

Is it cheating to dodge some of that by having the other classes in the Apocrypha?

Valfen wrote:
As such, I strongly suggest introducing such a feat. It solves a lot of potential issues with regard to balance and diversity.

It's in the works!

Valfen wrote:
I think a 1,5,10... pattern would be fine. I also strongly think it should be "core" to P6. Otherwise some signature choices are vastly better than the others, which in return asks for system mastery. I'm almost sure that's not something you find desirable for P6 (I know I don't).

Great point on the system mastery. I had been thinking of that in regards to lots of other things, but hadn't for this aspect. For some reason every five strikes me as too many. Would giving the second one at 10, and then every five after that work? Would just every 10th be too far in between?

Valfen wrote:
Combat Improvement could have a BAB +4 prerequisite.

I was actually thinking about that for the reason that it keeps them at what they'd get at 7th level. I have the current version because it didn't seem like that big of change and made it simpler. (It also has some interaction with the multi-class BAB smoothing.) I'm starting to go the other way though.

Valfen wrote:
Legendary Craftsman opens up a lot of magic items previously unattainable.

I was hoping that making each type of item a separate signature feat that it would cut down on a glut of more powerful items. It seemed to fit with the idea of allowing a selected 8th level power. Are there a few CL 7 or 8 items that you nominate as way over-powered.

Thanks for the other comments too! I hope to get the revised-beta out in the next week or so to see what gaps it still has.

VanceMadrox wrote:

So if I understand this correctly your format is normal up to 6th level, feats to get 7-8th level abilities and allow a character to get one final ability normally gotten at levels 9-10?

Normal advancement to 6th and then feats. Around five epic feats can get you everything you would have at 7th level. Your one signature feat gets you an 8th level power (or the 9th level sorcerer power). I see the merit in getting additional signature feats eventually. I think for getting the other 9th and 10th level powers I'd recommend E8.

Aazen wrote:

How does this work for Prestige classes?

Not well. You could still take one if you can qualify for it before you stop advancing at 6th level... At first blush, E8 or E10 sound like a better choice for Prestige class fans.

Sovereign Court

Yeah I think I generally prefer E8 to E6.

My biggest issue with E8 over E6 is that Fighters don't get more attacks than 3/4 BaB classes. (Strangely it doesn't bother me that the other martials don't, only that Fighters don't.)

Whereas with E6 over E8 I have more issues.

3/4 Casters (Bards, Alchemists, Maguses, Summoners) only get 1st level spells naturally.

Most Classes have far better Capstone like powers at 7th-8th level.

Spell discrepancies. I find there's a lot more spells that are 3rd level on one list and 4th on another versus 4th on one list and 5th on another. For example without EPIC feats in E6 a Wizard can never get Animate Dead.

E6 Only gets 1 stat Point bump. (Though this is an obvious EPIC feat)

I dislike ritual magic. I don't like the system from UE and haven't found an alternative I like. With E8 I can use EPIC Feats to allow some 5th level spells including the necessary ones. (Atonement, Break Enchantment, & Hallow specifically)

Are you going to consider a version for E8 at all?


VanceMadrox wrote:
3/4 Casters (Bards, Alchemists, Maguses, Summoners) only get 1st level spells naturally.

Right now I have it set up so that taking the Greater Spell Casting (Epic) feat gives the Bard a 3rd level spell each time they take it, up to what they would have at 7th level in standard PF. The other 3/4 casters will be added to that feat in the versions that go beyond the core. That keeps with the idea of having around 5 epic feats giving close to everything a 7th level PF character would have.

VanceMadrox wrote:

Spell discrepancies. I find there's a lot more spells that are 3rd level on one list and 4th on another versus 4th on one list and 5th on another. For example without EPIC feats in E6 a Wizard can never get Animate Dead.

I dislike ritual magic. I don't like the system from UE and haven't found an alternative I like. With E8 I can use EPIC Feats to allow some 5th level spells including the necessary ones. (Atonement, Break Enchantment, & Hallow specifically)

Any particular dislikes about the way I set up the Ritual feats? Right now I've got the cross-over 3rd/4th level spells Animate Dead, Neutralize Poison, and Remove Curse as non-Epic feats, and the higher level Atonement, Break Enchantment,Dismissal, Hallow, Restoration, and Stone to Flesh as Epic feats.

At the end I also have the strong recommendation to include the Animate Dead, Lesser spell from Ultimate Magic to help with the undead issue (2nd for Cleric, 3rd for Soc/Wiz).

VanceMadrox wrote:

E6 Only gets 1 stat Point bump. (Though this is an obvious EPIC feat)

At first I thought the two advancement feats from the original E6 (two feats, the first gives no bonus, the 2nd gives you the +2 bonus) were a bit odd. But the more I thought about it the more I like that it removes the need to figure out where you want your odd and even ability scores during character creations. So 12 epic feats lets you raise all of your abilities by two points. The only change I made was for the first feat to give a slight bonus when you take it.

VanceMadrox wrote:
Are you going to consider a version for E8 at all?

Once I get the kinks worked out for how I want the P6 it might not be too painful to do. But I'm guessing it would be at least Fall or Winter of 2014 before I would even start it (I've got a bunch of other P6 things in the queue first). It would certainly remove the temptation if someone decided to make their own P8 Grimoire or P8 Libram or whatnot and beat me to the punch. (It seems like it would be kind of cool to see the P6 Codex show up in the OGL copyright notice of someone else's work because they liked something I put in their enough to use it too.)


Repost of the link to get the beta version of the rules for anyone who skipped the first post in the thread www.p6codex.com .

Sovereign Court

Nothing wrong with the way you do the rituals, I just don't really like the concept. I probably wouldn't care for anything short of a full ritual system.

Ultimately I just think 8th letter is a better break point despite being a little more complicated and the Fighter not getting more attacks (though now I'm considering a way for Fighters to get up to Bab +11...)

I am a fan of what you're doing though!


Jr. Annalist wrote:
I dislike a lot of the racial feats, performance feats seem a step too far

I'd like to voice my support of the Keen Scent Feat...My half orc ranger would like to keep it.


Some arguments for giving additional signature feats (say one at every 10 epic advancements) are that it would cut down on a bit of system mastery need, make it so some of the less-combat-awesome-ones would be more likely to be taken, would give something extra to players in parties that kept playing for a long time, and would still make them pretty special.

Anyone have an argument they'd like to make against it?

...

As far as regular racial feats...

Sandbox wrote:
I'd like to voice my support of the Keen Scent Feat...My half orc ranger would like to keep it.

That one could have a physical/biological reason that the half-orcs would have it (although it looks like only the non-Paizo greenskin ones get scent in the bestiary). There are several that it seems like some members of any race could be just as good at, or they're designed just to throw in bonus points for power-creep reasons... those are the one's I'll be taking out.

The Exchange

Any further developments in the P6 Codex, Jr Annalist?


Fake Healer wrote:
Any further developments in the P6 Codex, Jr Annalist?

I have a lot of the comments above incorporated and hope to get a new draft of the abridged version up this weekend (crosses-fingers). Once that's up, I hope to start putting out summaries of the selections I'm making from the various A&U sources to get feedback as I go along.

Grand Lodge

nice

Sczarni

Just leaving this idea here for those who like the idea of P8/E8 but don't like 3/4 BAB characters getting the extra attack: how about simply removing the idea of extra attacks from all classes due to BAB, and then giving the classes that you want an extra attack a class feature which does so?

Maybe one day I'll myself play in an Ex/Px game, assuming I find enough people interested (just to try something different).


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Just found this thread and wanted to say thanks to Jr. Annalist for what he's created. I have a couple of thoughts.

Master of Forms is a BIG benefit to druids. A huge animal form is a big power bump. Obviously, you want a wild-shapey signature feat, but I'm not sure this is it. Possibly adding uses and/or duration?

I'd like to see Greater Skillfulness grant a flat number of skill points, maybe with Int modifier, rather than extra skill points every advancement.

Greater Toughness the same, a flat hp bonus (I like 5, or the usual amount you gain per level, 4 for wizard, 5 for cleric, etc) without additional hps for every advancement. I might make it possible to take the feat more than once, for someone who really wants to be tanky.

I think rogues have to have something better than improved uncanny dodge. One thing I would consider would be giving them a second attack if they hit with their first attack when sneak attacking. On the other hand, that's far away from using the pathfinder rules as they exist, so never mind. But they still want something better than improved uncanny dodge.


Agreed on Master of Forms. Basically, druid is a strong class, and 8th level is it's sweet spot due to huge wild shape.

I think it's a bad idea overall to just assume 8th level powers are a good capstone for 6th level characters because they're created very unequally, and they also have a lot different affect on 6th level gameplay.

I think an ability like A Thousand Faces is much more appropriate as a capstone/ultimate druid ability for a 6th level game. It's flavorful, feels powerful, allows plenty of cool stuff like indefinite darkvision or swim speed, but it's less "bursty" than huge size and will not make druids full-powered melee characters. Huge size on a melee-built druid will put druids on par with fighters in combat, while still having decent spell list and more skills.

Other abilities I'd consider more balanced than huge size wild shape:
- Many Lives from the reincarnated druid. This is an ability that feels very druidy, and it's defensive which means the risk to upset combat balance is lower.

- Path of Trees from the world walker. This is one of those druid spells that I simply think is so frakkin' awesome and fitting. It _feels_ really powerful, and would be the only class ability that allows fast travel between distant locations. However, it's personal only so not very party friendly, though of course it can be useful regardless.


Any updates Jr Annalist?


Behind schedule, but optimistic later this week for the revision of the abridged rules. Hoping to start posting outlines of the next part as it gets done.


I finally have the revised Beta version of the Abridged P6 Codex posted at: http://p6codex.com/AbridgedP6CodexV0p2.pdf

I think I made changes in the spirit of most of the suggestions posted above - all of your advice, comments, criticism, and support was invaluable. Thank you!!

The major changes were:
* An additional signature feat can be taken every ten epic advancements (the added flexibility for those playing that long seemed worth the modest power creep, and it removes a bit of the systems mastery optimization need)
* Leadership was modified to make it easier to get Followers and to lower the starting Cohort level
* Combat Improvement has a prerequisite of BAB +4 (so it matches what the characters actually get at 7th level)
* Extra Skill Capacity was rolled into Greater Skillfullness, which was also simplified
* Greater Toughness was simplified
* Intrinsic Bond was weakened for Druids (as several pointed out, not all 8th level granted powers are equal...)
* Legendary Craftsman was simplified and a list of all creatable magic items was added to the document
* Master of Forms was weakened
* The Signature Combat Feat was added, subsuming Improved Critical, Improvised Weapon Mastery, and Stunning Fist, and also allowing the 3/4 BAB classes the potential of obtaining +6 prerequisite combat feats as signature feats
* The rule for violating item creation prerequisites was modified

(V0p1 is still posted, with a cover sheet added -- just change V0p2 to V0p1 in the link).

I look forward to any suggestions you have on what the current document needs.

Right now I'm working on the unabridged parts (adding in selected pieces from the Advanced and Unlimited books) and will be posting sections as I go along. Hopefully soon!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
JTibbs wrote:

Spellcasters are severely limited at 6th level... They have almost no offensive endurance.

Something would need to be done to enhance them, like sleep allow ing wizards to prepare spells a second time in a 24 hours period, or sorcerors spells regenerating over time.

A spell points system variation would work well.

Another variant would be making scrolls significantly cheaper. like allowing scrolls to be made from regular ink and paper.

1/8th of an ounce of ink, plus a sheet of paper costs 1.5GP... might work for a 1st level scroll.

The whole point of E6 is to nerf casters. the folks who complain about the higher levels generally call out caster dominance over everything else.


Thanks, JA - P6 and the campaign idea I'm working on right now are just about perfect for each other. It's great to have a system expert finding most of the pitfalls before I fall into them. :)


I did this years ago.

[align=center][u]E6 Feats[/u][/align]

[align=center][color=blue][u]* General Feats *[/u][/color][/align]

Ability Advancement [Combat]
You've spent time perfecting one of your abilities.
Benefit: Choose one Ability Score; you gain a permanent +1 bonus to that ability score.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, however, it may only be taken twice for each ability score.

Combat Training [Combat]
Frequent and focused combat training have increased your battle prowess
Benefit: Your Base Attack Bonus increases by 1.
Special: You may only take this feat twice.

Expansive Skill
Benefit: Upon taking this feat you acquire 4 skill ranks.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times.

Skill Beyond Your Years
Prerequisite: Level 6
Benefit: Upon taking this feat you select a skill. Your max ranks with the chosen skill rise from 6 to 8.

[align=center][color=blue][u]* Caster Feats *[/u][/color][/align]

Caster Training
Prerequisite: Character level 6, Ability to cast Arcane or Divine spells.
Benefit: Choose a spell casting class that you have, your effective caster level for that class becomes equal to your total hitdice +2. This does not grant you additional spells or slots.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, however, you are required to choose a class with which you have not taken this feat.

Expanded Spell Repertoire
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.
Benefit: Choose a spontaneous spellcasting class in which you can cast spells. You gain an additional spell known for each level of spell that you can cast.

Expanded Casting
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast. This feat may be taken multiple times.

School Specialist
Prerequisite: Wizard 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the eighth level specialist power from your chosen school. If you have chosen the Abjuration School, you instead increase your Resistance ability from 5 to 10.

Awakened Bloodline
Prerequisite: Sorcerer 6
Benefit: You gain your bloodline's bonus 3rd level spell, and its 9th level granted bloodline power.

Ritual Magic
You've become adept at cooperating with other casters to call upon higher magics.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast third level spells; Spellcraft 6 ranks; Skill Focus: Spellcraft, Spell Casting Ability Score of 15 or higher.
Benefit: Two or more spell casters of the same type (Divine or Arcane) who each have the Ritual Magic feat may work together in an elaborate ritual to invoke 4th, 5th, and 6th level spell effects.

Each person may only begin one ritual per day, though they may assist with any number of other rituals.

A Ritual Spell takes a base of one hour to perform. Each additional caster involved in the ritual beyond the first two reduces its casting time by 20 minutes to a minimum casting time of 10 minutes with 5 participants.
Special: The spells which may be called upon are chosen by the GM.

[align=center][color=blue][u]* Fighter Feats *[/u][/color][/align]

Martial Veteran [Combat]
Prerequisite: Fighter 6
Benefit: Upon taking this feat you are treated as having fighter level 8, and Base Attack Bonus of minimum 8 for the purpose of selecting feats. In addition when using the Power Attack or Combat Expertise feat you are treated as having a Base Attack Bonus minimum 8.

Special: Your base attack bonus benefits from feats such as Combat Training. Thus it would be 9 if you have 1 rank of Combat Training.

Master Combatant [Combat]
Mastery of your craft has increased the effectiveness of your fighter special abilities.
Prereq: Fighter 6
Benefit: You acquire Armor Training 2, and your Bravery increases to +3. You may also choose a second group of weapons with which to gain the Weapon Training Bonus, however, your bonus does not increase.

[align=center][color=blue][u]* Barbarian Feats *[/u][/color][/align]

Focus Your Rage
Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: You may select an additional Rage Power with a level requirement up to 8th level.
Special: You may select this feat twice.

Barbaric Resilience
Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: You gain DR 1/--
Special: You may take this feat a second time, improving your DR from 1 to 2.

[align=center][color=blue][u]* Druid Feats *[/u][/color][/align]

Extra Wild Shape
Prerequisite: Wild Shape Class Feature
Benefit: You may Wild Shape one additional time each day.
Special: You may select this feat twice.

Plant Shaping
Prereq: Druid 6, Knowledge (Nature) 6 ranks
Benefit: You may use Plant Shape I through your Wild Shape Class Feature.

Improved Elemental Form
Prerequisite: Druid 6, Knowledge (The Planes) 6 ranks
Benefit: You may use Elemental Body II through your Wild Shape Class Feature.

[align=center][color=blue][u]* Ranger Feats *[/u][/color][/align]

Extra Favored Terrain
Prerequisite: Ranger 3
Benefit: You may select a second Favored Terrain, but your terrain bonuses do not improve.

Step of the Wild Lands
Prerequisite: Ranger 6, Survival 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker and Camouflage class abilities.

[align=center][color=blue][u]* Rogue Feats *[/u][/color][/align]

Extra Rogue Talent
Prerequisite: Rogue 6
Benefit: You learn one Rogue Talent of your choice.
Special: You may take this feat a second time to learn one additional rogue talent of up to Advanced Talent level.

Improved Uncanny Dodge
Prerequisite: Rogue 6
Benefit: You gain the 8th level Improved Uncanny Dodge Rogue ability.

[align=center][color=blue][u]* Cleric Feats *[/u][/color][/align]

Divine Channeling
Prerequisite: Cleric 6
Benefit: Increase your channel energy dice from 3d6 to 5d6.

[align=center][color=blue][u]* Paladin Feats *[/u][/color][/align]

Aura of Resolve
Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: You gain the 8th level Aura of Resolve ability.

Divine Aim
Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: Your weapons are treated as good-aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Divine Might
Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: Your Smite Evil increases by 1 use per day.
Special: You may take this feat twice.

[align=center][color=blue][u]* Monk Feats *[/u][/color][/align]

Excelling Flurry
Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: You use Flurry of Blows with no penalty to your attack bonus.

Flow Like Water
Prereq: Monk 6, Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility
Benefit: Your Monk AC Bonus increases to +2.

Enlightened Spirit
The order of the universe flows through your mastery of ki
Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: You gain the Ki Pool (lawful) benefit.

Enlightened Body
Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: Your gain the Wholeness of Body Monk ability and your Slow Fall increases to 40ft.

Enlightened Fist
Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: Your unarmed strike damage increases by one step.

[align=center][color=blue][u]* Bard Feats *[/u][/color][/align]

Dirge of Doom
Prerequisite: Bard 6
Benefit: You gain access to the Bard Song ability Dirge of Doom.

Experienced Performer
Prerequisite: Bard 6, Perform (any) 6 ranks
Benefit: You may start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action.

Master Performer
Prerequisite: Bard 6, Perform (any) 6 ranks, Experienced Performer, Skill Focus: Perform (any)
Benefit: You may start a bardic performance as a swift action.

Lingering Song
Your inspirational bardic music stays with the listeners even after the last note has died away.
Prerequisite: Bardic Music
Benefit: If you use Bardic Music to Inspire Courage or Inspire Competence, the effect lasts for a number of additional rounds equal to the number of rounds that your performance lasted.


Jr. Annalist wrote:

I finally have the revised Beta version of the Abridged P6 Codex posted at: http://p6codex.com/AbridgedP6CodexV0p2.pdf

I think I made changes in the spirit of most of the suggestions posted above - all of your advice, comments, criticism, and support was invaluable. Thank you!!

The major changes were:
* An additional signature feat can be taken every ten epic advancements (the added flexibility for those playing that long seemed worth the modest power creep, and it removes a bit of the systems mastery optimization need)
* Leadership was modified to make it easier to get Followers and to lower the starting Cohort level
* Combat Improvement has a prerequisite of BAB +4 (so it matches what the characters actually get at 7th level)
* Extra Skill Capacity was rolled into Greater Skillfullness, which was also simplified
* Greater Toughness was simplified
* Intrinsic Bond was weakened for Druids (as several pointed out, not all 8th level granted powers are equal...)
* Legendary Craftsman was simplified and a list of all creatable magic items was added to the document
* Master of Forms was weakened
* The Signature Combat Feat was added, subsuming Improved Critical, Improvised Weapon Mastery, and Stunning Fist, and also allowing the 3/4 BAB classes the potential of obtaining +6 prerequisite combat feats as signature feats
* The rule for violating item creation prerequisites was modified

(V0p1 is still posted, with a cover sheet added -- just change V0p2 to V0p1 in the link).

I look forward to any suggestions you have on what the current document needs.

Right now I'm working on the unabridged parts (adding in selected pieces from the Advanced and Unlimited books) and will be posting sections as I go along. Hopefully soon!

Well I started making a pathfinder E6 variant way back in like 2008 or 2009. I'm reviewing your variant and I'm seeing a LOT of extra wording, especially confusing sentences.

I've been doing some modifications on my own variant with inspiration from yours. I'd love to share ideas and perhaps we could work together in creating a better E6.

I've cleaned up a lot of wording as well in my opinion. Been working on E6 heavily for the past four days ><

If you have a skype, it'd be great to communicate that way. I can private message you my skype name.


Insanity Logic wrote:
Well I started making a pathfinder E6 variant way back in like 2008 or 2009. I'm reviewing your variant and I'm seeing a LOT of extra wording, especially confusing sentences.

I think that's mainly because Jr. Annalist aims to have a set of rules as self-contained as possible.

Jr. Annalist wrote:
I finally have the revised Beta version of the Abridged P6 Codex posted at: http://p6codex.com/AbridgedP6CodexV0p2.pdf *snip*

Ah ha ! Very clever solution with the synergy you created between Combat Improvement and Signature Combat Feat. This alleviates most, if not all, issues in build variety in an E6/P6 context.

I think Greater Skillfulness is missing Skillfulness as a prerequisite.

I'd still give a flat bonus to Track checks in the Epic Woodcraft just to get rid of the clumsy (IMO) language/limitation. We're talking maxing at +12 instead of +11, I don't think it's a difference major enough to be worth the annoyance.

I'm still not happy about the power level of the Druid (though I'd have to build a couple characters to be sure), but this is not your fault. What does bother me is in fact the relative power level of Large pets compared to 6th level characters, but I'm starting to think this is more an issue of perceived game balance rather than a true imbalance that would be detrimental to the game. Only way to be sure would be through playtest/feedback. Were you able to do it on your side, by chance ?

There's a few things I would have done differently (*), for sure, but I can't see anything in this version of your P6 rules likely to cause problems. Like I already said, I'm impressed by not only how well-defined the boundaries of your design space are, but also by how well you convey it throughout the document. (The explanatory text *and* the rules themselves)

I would definitely begin with these rules if I were to GM again an E6 campaign.

(*) As food for thought : mainly the idea of an "Epic Skill" and "Epic Toughness" follow-up (signature ?) feats that would give an open-ended bonus to skill points/HP equal to your number of epic feats.
I also like a lot the concept behind the Resistance feat and Ability Enhancement feats from Kirthfinder for their capacity to shift several of the big six magic items bonus back to feats, which seems perfectly appropriate in the E6 context. As far as I can tell, both ideas wouldn't fit within your design guidelines though. (and it's not necessarily a bad thing either !)


Insanity Logic wrote:
I did this years ago.

Thanks for posting the ones you worked up and sorry for the delay in responding. I'm trying to work up the time to go through them. For ability advancement, the way you have it is one I've thought about. I decided to go with the version in Stoughton's e6 where it takes two feats to get two points. I'm hoping this minimizes the difference between starting with an odd score or an even score. I added the floating bonus on the first feat because it seemed odd to have something that did nothing but serve as a prerequisite.

Insanity Logic wrote:

I'm seeing a LOT of extra wording, especially confusing sentences.

If you have a skype, it'd be great to communicate that way. I can private message you my skype name.

Like Valfen pointed out I'm trying to make it fairly self contained so that might explain part of the wordiness. Another part is probably trying too hard to get the characters to mimic the seventh level powers on the nose (so some of the caster feats are a bit verbose). I definitely want to fix any that are too confusing!

I'm also happy to exchange insights and the like. Unfortunately my schedule is being uncooperative and it might be hard to fit some times down to real-time chat, so e-mail might be better (editor@p6codex.com). Could also give you my skype contact as long as you don't mind it being asynchronous.

Valfen wrote:
Ah ha ! Very clever solution with the synergy you created between Combat Improvement and Signature Combat Feat. This alleviates most, if not all, issues in build variety in an E6/P6 context.

I'm wondering about removing the combat improvement prerequisite. Right now there are a bunch of +4 requirement feats that a sorc/wizard couldn't qualify for since they can't take Combat Improvement... but they could have taken if they were 8th level in the standard game. The Rogue would still need Combat Improvement to get the +6 BAB feats and the fighter types would still need it to get the +8 ones.

Valfen wrote:
I think Greater Skillfulness is missing Skillfulness as a prerequisite.

I've gone back and forth on that one. It seems like it should be needed for the 2 skill point per level classes, but it seems punitive for the Rogue or for anyone who chose to put there favored class bonus into skills at every level to make them buy even more skills before they could put their 7th point in. Seemed easiest to just leave it out.

Valfen wrote:
I'd still give a flat bonus to Track checks in the Epic Woodcraft just to get rid of the clumsy (IMO) language/limitation. We're talking maxing at +12 instead of +11, I don't think it's a difference major enough to be worth the annoyance.

I'll go back and revisit those again. I am probably too caught up on keeping with the standard level caps.

Valfen wrote:
Only way to be sure would be through playtest/feedback. Were you able to do it on your side, by chance ?

Haven't had a chance yet. No one has posted anything negative about the small nerfs I put in for the larger animal companions yet.

Thank you again for your compliments and all your feedback!

Right now I'm working on adapting some of the archetypes and options from the advanced and ultimate books to make the unabridged version. I'm sure to need lots of advice there when I get the rough draft up!


Just wanted to say, very much love the work and care you've put into the Codex. I originally was doing very similar work, myself, for an adapted E-8 system mostly due to the fact that I felt that 3/4 BAB classes were left behind too much compared to pure martial ones.

Your solutions with the signature and epic feats is very organic, and to be honest, addresses just about every issue I previously had with the limited BAB for 3/4 classes. I also really like that you allow them to tap into 3rd level spells, and Rangers/Paladins into 2nd level spells, in a system similar to the one I'd envisioned but handled very elegantly. It's a great resource, and one I'll definitely use in the future. Looking forward to the unabridged version. Totally using this if I ever DM again.

Will definitely offer some help there, if I'm able, in proofreading and the like. =]


I've been devouring E6 over the holiday and this is all really great work. Looking forward to trying it out!

The early levels are a sweet spot for my group and E6/P6 is a great way to introduce them to d20 (we're currently playing an AD&D Temple of Elemental Evil campaign. My grand plan is to mash the Beginner's Box with P6 to make the jump to Pathfinder and let them wander around in a hexcrawl.


Since there's been two replies recently, I'm jumping on my chance to add something here without being tarred and feathered as a necromancer.

First of all, thanks to Jr. Annalist (and his various E6 predecessors) for all the work on this.

I've been thinking about this for a campaign I'm putting together myself, and I'm wondering if any of you have thoughts on a scheme I'm currently contemplating. I'm going to have it to go to E6 normally, then begin awarding post-E6 feats, but after 5 feats (or levels) let them gain 7th level, and then after another 10 feats (or levels) gain 8th level. So, my 7th and 8th levels are very rare, and are in effect capstone 'epic' levels reserved for truly rare and powerful people.

I haven't played a lot of Pathfinder, which is why I'm inviting feedback, in case I'm not aware of some major issues. For me, going from E6 to E8 seems to have a few big issues:

1) access to 4th level spells. I'll have to go through and see how many problematic ones there are (Black Tentacles seems to stand out...), but I don't find them to be as game changing as 5th level spells in general, and having the players get access to a handful of powerful spells seems ok to me (I'll likely make the Expanded Arcana type feats not be applicable to L4 spells).

2) 3/4 BAB classes getting a 2nd iterative attack. I'm ok with this, since it will come so much later than for full BAB classes. I think this strikes a good balance between 3/4 BAB's supposing to be capable martials vs not overshadowing the full BAB classes.

I'm not worried about crafting rules, since in my campaign I won't use the Book based crafting at all, and instead use something more like the rules detailed in the (much loved by me) long ago White Dwarf articles where you have to 'research' any item to learn how to craft it, and assemble weird materials etc. This goes even for scrolls and potions, where you'll have to learn an ink or potion recipe, with materials that get more exotic as the spell or potion level gets higher. With this system, I'm fine even with powerful items such as a Staff of Power, which would be a legendary item requiring a lifetime of dedicated research and toil by a mage and his various apprentices (ie not gonna be crafted by some PC).

Anything else I'm overlooking? Does 5 and 10 seem like reasonable splits? I'd want it to be such that L8 is eventually possible, but a distant goal, much like becoming a L18 arch-mage in old AD&D.


@The Darkling: Thanks for the positive feedback! I'm hoping to have some parts of the unabridged out soon with modified parts of the Advanced and Ultimate materials for the core classes, and the apocrypha with the material for the other classes out in the spring.

On the editing/proofing, right now one of my questions is whether I should split the Epic Caster and Greater Spell Casting feats into separate feats by class (so, Epic Caster - Cleric, Epic Caster - Druid, etc...) to make each one easier to read. It feels a bit bloated to me to do it that way for the core classes, but it would make it easier to add in the versions for the non-core classes down the road.

--

@UltravioletSpy: I'm looking forward to hearing how it works - especially bridging to E6/P6 from the Beginner's Box. I haven't done more than flip through it, but am thinking that a transition document would be a nice thing to have down the road.

--

@Ackbladder: It sounds like a reasonable idea at first blush. When I was thinking about where to draw the line for my right up, I think there were a few 4th level spells that sounded like they might be problemeatic, but not many of them (I have to go back and look to see which there were). The biggest question I have about the idea is whether it would seem odd to have that 5th post-6th advancement come with so much more power (an entire level) than the four preceding it and the four following it?

One way around that would be to do something akin to what I tried to do with the 7th level class features - you could divide the 7th level class features up into five feats that they could start taking after 6th level, and you could do the same for the 8th level class features for them to take after they have the 7th level ones. That would avoid the big jump from that one advancement, and would also save having to worry about how some of the post-6th feats might stack with getting the powers from getting 7th or 8th level all at once.

Whether 5 and 10 was reasonable seems like it depends on how fast your group levels. Some of those playing E6 sound like they rack up the feats pretty quickly.


Just reviewing the November updated Codex today and wanted to thank you again, Jr. Annalist, for all the work to date on this.

Happy New Year!


Yep thanks a lot, Jr Annalist, just downloaded the little diamond and will read it over the week-end.

@Ackbladder : have you the White Dwarf magazine numbers ? Thanx


I've finally had a chance to jump into the second big part of the project - selecting and modifying things from the advanced and ultimate books to add to the core rules. So far I've got the first two classes done: http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf The others will be added as I finish polishing my notes into shape and finalize things over the coming month.

The end goal is to have:

The Abridged P6 Codex - The rules needed to run P6 with just the Core rule book (and it needs a copy of the Pathfinder Core Rule Book to use it). It's posted in beta version at P6Codex.com

P6 Codex - A complete self contained rules set with P6 meshed with Core and selections/modifications from the Advanced and Ultimate books. I hope to have a nice beta of it this spring and the alpha is linked above.

P6 Codex: Gunsmoke and P6 Codex: Formularie covering the Gunfighter and the Alchemist respectively, with everything needed to add them. Aiming for this summer.

P6 Codex: Apocrypha - The epic and signature feats and feat modifications needed to use all of the classes and archetypes from the Advanced and Ultimate books. It will require having those books in order to use them. Also aiming for this summer. I will post an alpha of it and keep it updated when I get started on it.

Grand Lodge

Dotting again/

Liberty's Edge

I really like what you did here. I'm curious to try this out in a sandbox setting. I don't know when I will get the chance to do so, but it's an intriguing project to follow none the less.


I just ran across this again and took a moment to read the Abridged P6 Codex. One thing I'm not sure I like is the Bard's loss of access to some thematic spells like Confusion. It seems like if you're a Bard willing to spend a feat maybe those specialized spells which are usually 3rd level for Bards should be available to you. Then again, maybe I just like Bards.

It sounds like the PCs are assumed to gain about 1 level of relative power for every 5 advancements. There's probably some practical limit to that since higher CR monsters would eventually gain powers the PCs can't compete with. Increased wealth might help the PCs out a bit though, and I wonder what treasure awards are supposed to look like after 6th level. Would they stay flat? Increase? Decrease?

I'd think that finishing a "standard" AP without some serious downgrades to encounters in the last few books might be beyond the expected capabilities of P6 characters, but how far do folks think they should be able to go, to around 9th level adventures? 10th? It seems like using the Slow XP track up to 6th level and then the medium and or fast tracks after that might stretch the game out nicely but allow the PCs to eventually amass enough power to punch through into higher level if potentially deadly adventures, perhaps using Hero Points gained 1 per advancement to survive encounters at the extreme edge of their capabilities.

I find the idea of a game with tight power limits that the player is expected to stretch as far as possible quite interesting compared to the typical Pathfinder game where power is almost limitless and the player has to self-police or risk throwing game balance out of whack (I'm not the best self-policer sometimes...)

Liberty's Edge

While I've always been of fan of EX (E8 especially for Pathfinder, E6 for 3.5) I've recently discovered dungeon world RPG, and I think it does what EX tries to do better than EX does.

Liberty's Edge

Devilkiller wrote:
... how far do folks think they should be able to go, to around 9th level adventures? 10th?

I read the document this morning and it talks a little about this. If I recall correctly it says characters plateau in relative power to about 9th level characters.

I think all of the APs except for Council of Thieves would be out for this style of play. Even then, it would need some downgrading in the final chapter.


Devilkiller wrote:

It sounds like the PCs are assumed to gain about 1 level of relative power for every 5 advancements. There's probably some practical limit to that since higher CR monsters would eventually gain powers the PCs can't compete with. Increased wealth might help the PCs out a bit though, and I wonder what treasure awards are supposed to look like after 6th level. Would they stay flat? Increase? Decrease?

I'd think that finishing a "standard" AP without some serious downgrades to encounters in the last few books might be beyond the expected capabilities of P6 characters, but how far do folks think they should be able to go, to around 9th level adventures? 10th?

Yeah, like JG points out above, it kind of plateaus out at 8th level. But with a slightly larger party, enough magic items, and enough epic feats, it seems like they could be able to take on a 9th level adventure _if_ it didn't assume they had access to raising the dead, teleport, or any of the other things usually available from 4th and 5th level spells.

It looks like they could play through the first two parts of all the adventure paths... and the third of some of them. It would be interesting to go through all of them and see what is needed to give them satisfactory endings after the 2nd or 3rd part of the Path.

I'll have to do some more thinking about if/how treasure needs to be modified as things go along after 6th. My initial inclination was just to leave it flat.

Devilkiller wrote:
It seems like using the Slow XP track up to 6th level and then the medium and or fast tracks after that might stretch the game out nicely but allow the PCs to eventually amass enough power to punch through into higher level if potentially deadly adventures,

I really like your idea of using a different XP track if you're doing something like an AP so you can keep up with it. If you were using medium advancement through 6th level, then you might even want to go to 3,000 xp for the epic feats so that they stay kind of on track with where the 7th and 8th level characters would be on medium advancement.

Devilkiller wrote:
One thing I'm not sure I like is the Bard's loss of access to some thematic spells like Confusion. It seems like if you're a Bard willing to spend a feat maybe those specialized spells which are usually 3rd level for Bards should be available to you. Then again, maybe I just like Bards.

It seemed best for my sanity to just make a rule and stick to it, and avoid the slippery slope. If the Bard gets that spell because they'd get it at 7th level, why doesn't the Wizard get it too? Why just those spells and not all 4th level Wiz/Sorc spells? If 4th level spells are ok for Wizards because they would usually get them at 7th level, what about Sorcerers? etc.. I can certainly see that as a really reasonable set of feats to home rule in.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the extra options added to the Bard in the alpha version of the full rules ( http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf ).

ShadowcatX wrote:
While I've always been of fan of EX (E8 especially for Pathfinder, E6 for 3.5) I've recently discovered dungeon world RPG, and I think it does what EX tries to do better than EX does.

:::not listening! not listening!:::

I'll have to check it out. Too much sunk cost in this to stop now though. :-)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't think there's a slippery slope with the Bard getting thematic spells like Confusion. They fit the theme of Bard very well, and that's why Bards always got early access to them as 3rd level spells, not 4th. I don't see why Bards getting 3rd level spells from the Bard spell list would imply that Wizards should get 4th level spells from the Wizard spell list. That said, Fear can be a really frightening spell to deal with (pun intended), so maybe your decision is actually for the best.

Regarding the extra Bard options, Arcane Dueling obviously reminds one of the Arcane Duelist archetype. It seems very beneficial in P6 since it preserves one of your feats. It looks like the option to emulate some other archetypes is also included, which seems nice for variety. I'm glad to see that Dirge of Doom is included as that's probably my favorite bardic performance lately.

It seems like a shame that the last 2-3 books of an AP seem doomed to need customization under either the standard or P6 systems. I think with a few tweaks the standard Pathfinder system could work pretty well for at least the levels most APs go up to. Of course there could still be a place for E6/P6 since some folks simply enjoy the lower levels of play the most and wish they could go on and on.


Devilkiller wrote:
I don't think there's a slippery slope with the Bard getting thematic spells like Confusion. They fit the theme of Bard very well, and that's why Bards always got early access to them as 3rd level spells, not 4th.

My thinking was that both the Bards and Wizards got them at the 7th character level, so it didn't really fit one better than the other in that sense. On the other hand, if it was on the Bard list but didn't show up as just higher on the other lists then they still get to have it.

Devilkiller wrote:
It looks like the option to emulate some other archetypes is also included, which seems nice for variety. I'm glad to see that Dirge of Doom is included as that's probably my favorite bardic performance lately.

Yeah. Trying to get as much in that was balanced and not overwhelming... and to keep everything that was in the Core along for the ride. Glad it seemed reasonable on a first pass. Now I just need to find the time to put the other 10 classes in.

Devilkiller wrote:
I think with a few tweaks the standard Pathfinder system could work pretty well for at least the levels most APs go up to.

If you wanted to get to 12th or 14th level, what tweaks would you want to put in?


Serolf wrote:


@Ackbladder : have you the White Dwarf magazine numbers ? Thanx

Sorry for the very late reply Serolf. They ran from issue #59 to #63, according to https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.frp.archives/vpNPZ1A9PfE.

I wish I knew how to buy a PDF of these - if you find any sources, let me know!


I wasn't really talking about tweaking P6 to make it work for 14th level adventures but tweaking "standard" Pathfinder to make it run more smoothly long enough to finish an AP. Once the 9th level spells come out I figure all bets are probably off. Anyhow, my "tweaks" might include:
#1 - Nerf touch attacks (allow shield bonuses against them and maybe limit their ability to bypass armor and natural armor to 10 points)
#2 - Remove the Fort save from Coup de Grace (mostly to blunt the impact of powers which force a helpless state such as the Witch's Slumber, Gentle Rest, etc)
#3 - Change round per level SoL spells like Cacophonous Call or Greater Forbid Action to include a new save each round
#4 - Limit summoning to one spell or SLA in effect at a time (spells would combine with eidolons as normal)
#5 - Change Freedom of Movement from blanket immunity to grapples to a CMD bonus vs grapples (possibly scaling with caster level)

If I were tackling the task of trying to get P6 characters through a 16 level AP I guess it might be nice to find quick, systematic ways to cut the difficulty of high CR encounters. Applying templates to monsters might help. Limiting caster level for monster SLAs might be nice too. I thought about limiting monster BAB to +6 like PCs, but I suspect that could cause some "GM always needs a nat 20" problems since even a 6th level PC could eventually build up a very high AC if he or she keeps collecting treasure.

Maybe that would sort itself out if the GM insisted that the lack of higher level casters means that higher bonus magic items also weren't available. I guess caster level 6 would limit you to +2 armor and shield. If so a "high" AC might look like:
base +10
dex +3
mithral full plate +2
heavy shield +2
ring of prot +2
amulet +2
ioun stone +1
jingasa +1
AC 33

Considering Smite Evil, fighting defensively, Combat Expertise, etc it still might end up being pretty tough for monsters and NPCs to hit the PCs. Of course I guess the reverse might be true as well. Maybe it would work out. A lot of builds don't use shields, and not everybody wears full plate.

Obviously you could also just run the first few books of the AP and "condense" the rest into a customized finale with CR9-11 encounters. Maybe running APs isn't the real target of P6 anyhow.


Great work!

A quick question on the signature combat feat - is it the intent that a character take this feat giving them the ability to take the higher level combat feat when the reach the proper level or is it the intent that upon taking this feat they immediately gain the higher level feat (such as improved critical)?


Trample wrote:

Great work!

A quick question on the signature combat feat - is it the intent that a character take this feat giving them the ability to take the higher level combat feat when the reach the proper level or is it the intent that upon taking this feat they immediately gain the higher level feat (such as improved critical)?

Thanks!

Correct, they get to choose the higher level combat feat as part of taking the "Signature Combat Feat" feat. So it only takes that one slot to get the improved critical... assuming they had a 6 BAB at 6th level and then took the Combat Improvement epic feat.

I'll go back and look at the wording again to see if I can clarify that.

Devilkiller wrote:
I wasn't really talking about tweaking P6 to make it work for 14th level adventures but tweaking "standard" Pathfinder to make it run more smoothly long enough to finish an AP. Once the 9th level spells come out I figure all bets are probably off. Anyhow, my "tweaks" might include: <snip>

That's what I figured you meant. I'll come back and think about your suggestions -- it's been quite a while since I've run anything really high level though.

Devilkiller wrote:
Obviously you could also just run the first few books of the AP and "condense" the rest into a customized finale with CR9-11 encounters. Maybe running APs isn't the real target of P6 anyhow.

Right. I'm more interested in getting everything settled in around that 7th-8th level power and not necessarily making it work for the APs. That being said, if some of them can be made to work then that would be gravy.

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