So here are my thoughts on this: I have been a DM irl for almost 20 years, and have played long before that, going all the way back to the original Red Box. My experience in running PbP however is pretty light, but I am eager to do this, and a campaign like Slumbering Tsar would definitely provide months, if not years, of fun. That being said, my current gaming group is not exactly what you would call "serious" about gaming...in a 5 hour session, we usually get maybe an hour or so of actual gaming done. That's why I'm looking to do this campaign as a PbP.
I have some ideas on how I want to run the campaign (i.e. starting level=6, etc), but I am not actually recruiting yet. That's why the thread is in Advice and not over on the Online Campaign forums. I am looking to get some real advice on this one.
I have some ideas about how the campaign itself should look (i.e. Core races plus...) and I can post them in down the line if anyone thinks that's important, but at the moment, I am mostly looking for advice. I can recruit later once I have everything in place.
Thanks in advance to everyone who send me some constructive, informative advice.
I run both IRL games and pbp, and I can tell you a few things about it. The benefit of pbp is that you get a better "roleplaying" experience as characters have time to post dialogue instead of just making roles. I find that it is very rewarding. But on the flip side, you have to be very patient because pbp is slow. Spending five days to finish a quick encounter is pretty good. Plus you have to wait for slower posters.
When it comes to maps, I actually don't use anything, and it works for me, but I have had requests from some players for maps. Best way I've done it is to have a pdf of the event and simply manipulate it in an image program such as paint, maptools, etc. Maptools even has tokens that you can place on the board. But it does take a bit of micromanagement.
But the hardest part is finding characters that fit your style. It can be difficult, but the best way to do it is to have a stringent recruitment. Get the players to write a substantial character background and from there you can get an idea of their writing style.
Hope that helps
After looking at the PBP boards for some time, I've never seen a PBP run an entire AP to completion. Not very many complete the first module. The book you're talking about is easily 2.5 standard APs in size. As long as you aren't under any delusion that you'll finish or even scratch the surface of the content then it's fine. Also this book is geared for a super lethal 75% roll play 25% role play type of feel, possibly even 85/15. Essentially it's working against the main advantages of PBP.
@GM Tierce: I can understand how PbP is a lot slower than rl tabletop, but given how slow my group is playing irl (about a 1:5 ratio in terms of hours gamed v. hours total), PbP is about the same speed LOL. I'm thinking that I'll ask for a minimum of 2-3 posts/week out of combat and at least 1 post/48 hours for encounters as sounding rather reasonable (mostly because during the week, I post from work mostly). Does that sound like a reasonable request?
@Lastoth: Yea, it is disappointing that so many PbP campaigns die off, sometimes before even starting. I am hoping to play against the odds, but I am a realist, in that people might just get bored and decide to quit. I'm hoping to offset that by having a larger party (8+), which seems to increase the odds for longevity. Also, ST is definitely a grinder, but I'm leaning towards exploration, rather than TPK, whenever I can avoid it.
@Tierce: ST is a fantastic campaign. It's huge, with an old-school, 1st ed. feel (using PF rules) that is all the fashion these days. I think that the 1st part of the file (location is "The Camp") is either free or very cheap on Paizo. You should check it out.
I think it takes a group with a substantially faster posting rate than your suggesting (like a post a day in and out of combat) 6 - 9 months to finish a chapter of an AP. That is the general timescale for my PBP (which is just about to start chapter 3) and for most others I see on this site. I think a moderately fast paced, all players and GM comitted PBP AP takes about 5 years. Note these are games which start at level 1 where combat goes quickly. This coincidentally is why you don't see any completed games on the site.
You can verify this for yourself by having a gander at the posts themselves (start with those at 2,000 + posts that is a game with longevity). There are a few outliers.
Also every player added makes things substantially longer as the cycle of player input - GM response increases. In other words 8 players would go much slower than half the pace of 4. I'd say at least three times slower. Thats the ideal world. I think the reality is that with 8 most games will churn to a crawl and then wither.
So for a 2.5x AP I don't think I'm being remotely conservative in saying you will take at least a decade.
In other words I humbly suggest your expectations are a very long way from practicality. I say this not to insult you but the reality is misjudged expectations by GMs is by far the number 1 cause of PBP failure. PBP failures in turn embitter the whole community.
I would suggest you start with an encore. A side adventure or the first part of the AP if it is suitable. Aim for a half dozen encounters ending with something memorable. Recruit 4 or 5 players and advertise as such. That gives you a chance to get the style right, learn how to map (I suggest maptools). I think you will find that will take at least 3 months and give you a feel yourself for how long a chapter of the AP would actually take. If everything is going fine then you can continue. If its all too much then you can at least take the game to its stopping point without letting your players down.
My two cents at least.
One more thing. When I was idly thinking about running game I spent about a month or so fiddling around with maptools. I learnt how to pull out the backgrounds from pdfs (you need the electronic version of course) and put them in as background in maptools. I built up a big image library. I learnt how to create player and monster tokens with tokentools. I worked out how to host them (with google documents in my case).
Then when I did start GMing a game (ironically by taking one over rather than starting my own as I had planned) I wasn't far off making basic combat maps. Those first ones were rough and took a while. They're still pretty rough but I can now do them very quickly. With more than 30 combats posted in two chapters worth of AP that is absolutely critical.
You don't need to use the same process but you do need to have a process or at least part of one.
I have a personal theory that a very large proportion of new games that die do so because the GM takes 4 hours to try and do his first map. After failing he quits the whole thing in frustration.
In my case I'd already spent those 4 hours trying to work out what to do. I'd suggest you try that as well. Don't even recruit until you have a mock up of the map for the first encounter.
I have a personal theory that a very large proportion of new games that die do so because the GM takes 4 hours to try and do his first map. After failing he quits the whole thing in frustration.
I share that theory.
I use a PDF extractor (though you might be able to simply copy and paste in Acrobat Reader as the pdf use layers) then import in Inkscape (or another tool for drawing). When without a map, I use the base mat from Yer Olde Mapmaker and import it in Inkscape.
I then use Photobucket to make the maps available. I haven't worked with tokens yet, but that's my next step.
Make sure you can make a crude map before starting, or make sure your players don't mind having no map (some players also prefer it).
Regarding running APs as PbP:
I started as a replacement DM, and the job became permanent (Kingmaker, now in third volume)) after a while. This game has seen a lot of players disappear and join, yet a core stayed and now we run with four players. I started another AP (Jade Regent, finished first module), then a module (Carrion Hill, last part), which I'm now migrating to the middle of an AP (Carrion Crown, will jump in third volume). I also tried a homebrew, but decided to stop after a bit.
My opinion is that APs have a lot of fillers. These should be either dumped or grouped as bigger encounters. It's best to pick the best parts and play them, and only them, to keep the momentum of the game, having the players level when needed for the purpose of the encounters. The important thing is that it is memorable, which hinges around plot, interactions, and challenges faced. Not XP accounting or loot splitting.
That can even be applied to a whole volume from an AP. I must have cut 75 % of Rivers Run Red. It's up to you, as long as the players are on board.
I also find you need both a committed GM and committed players. I look carefully at posting history when I pick players, almost more than at their characters I'd say. Keeping it up, month after month after month, can be sometimes very challenging.
Last: don't disappear, and don't accept disappearances. You and the players should let everyone know when not there or leaving. That's probably my greatest source of frustration. You can take two months off if you wish, as long as you say it, players will probably stick with the game.
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Assuming that nobody dropped out of the game (ha!) it would either end in a TPK or you would have to replace players as they died. Yes, I mean PLAYERS...of old age.
Seriously, the adventure is about 2.5 - 3 times the size of an AP. (Keep in mind that about half of the 600 pages of a AP is support material, NOT adventure. ST is one big adventure from cover to cover.)
I doubt many would even make it out of the Desolation.
@DM Dan E: I'll be the first to agree that ST is a beast of a campaign (I can't personally call it an adventure path, as it generally stays in one area), and the statistics say that I'll not likely come close to completing it. I do realize that. I've also thought about starting the campaign with something 1st level and working our way up to the camp area. However, that in and of itself would take months, if I could get it off the ground and keep it running the whole way through. If I did that, I might not get to run ST.
As for pacing, I stated my goals because that's what I feel confident at that level. Most of the posts that I make are while I am at work, and while I could knock something out once/day or so (especially on weekends), if the boss says to stay off the site, then I'll have to (no PbP is worth losing a job over), which realistically means that I can post once every other day from home (wife thinks that PbP is stupid, why type when you can just play with the guys at home...who want to talk about everything except gaming?). That's one of the main reasons I want to run ST via PbP, I might actually get through it faster, then through the group of casual gamers that I run irl.
@Dreaming Warforged: I agree that a lot of modules/campaigns have a lot of filler with them. That is why I am leaning towards exploration, and keeping encounters somewhat lower than than what is in the book (i.e. avoid most of the non-weather activated random encounters).
Maptools: I have heard of it before (long, long ago, in a city far away), but how is the learning curve? And is there an Android version of it (I plan on doing some of the work from an ASUS Transformer tablet that I bought last month, that gets me around posting like this from my work's network access.)
Assuming that nobody dropped out of the game (ha!) it would either end in a TPK or you would have to replace players as they died. Yes, I mean PLAYERS...of old age.
Seriously, the adventure is about 2.5 - 3 times the size of an AP. (Keep in mind that about half of the 600 pages of a AP is support material, NOT adventure. ST is one big adventure from cover to cover.)
I doubt many would even make it out of the Desolation.
LOL yes I have to agree, ST does look daunting at first glance (and probably the second, down right creepy on the third....), but I would like to at least give it a shot. Who knows, it might even get some longevity behind it (i.e. post 2,001+).
Keep in mind, I'm not shooting down anyone's suggestions. But I have a bit of a stubborn streak in me. If I never run ST here, then I'll never know how it turns out. And if (when) the PbP runs down, I can at least tell myself that I gave it my best and then turn to something else.
Well good luck to you Lord Manticore (and if you have a spare slot... :p). I've recently started to GM my first PbP on the boards here too (under this alias), and have already had one player drop out and it's looking like a second will too if he doesn't post soon. I'm hopeful that it'll get off the ground after these initial speedbumps.
As far as maps, I bought the pdf for the module (formerly just had the hardcopy), and the pdf of the GameMastery FlipMat: Basic. I'm sure I could have found a free one somewhere but I think the texture on it is really nice. I've just opened it up with the free paint.NET program which allows for layers to be added and saved, and I've spent the last few hours adding reference numbers along the edges, and working on tokens and the like. I have always enjoyed the tactical combat aspect though, so hence have my own enthusiasm for maps to motivate me. I intend to post the maps using Dropbox once we actually get to some sort of combat (which probably won't be for a few weeks at least, this module has a lot of non-combat stuff prior to getting to the main event, which I think is good for bonding the group together in this case :)
I'll be keeping an eye out to see how you go.
EDIT: Oh, I also made sure to link prospective players to this thread which has a pretty good guide to PbPs by Doomed Hero.
Thank you Venture Captain. Ill keep you in mind when I setup the recruitment thread. When I get a chance, I'm going to start goofing around with the maptools that several have mentioned to me. I'm also going to wait a few more days before I setup shop in case anymore good advice comes my way via this thread.
I think Slumbering Tsar will be a bit easier to run than Rappan Athuk via pbp, due to there not being quite as much dungeon exploring. In my experience, nothing grinds a pbp to a halt like a huge dungeon exploration. Everyone except the rogue quiets down, and the rogue is the only one posting, percepting and searching for traps. The rest are mostly twiddling their thumbs, waiting on the rogue to post.
That has been my experience in my pbp games, when entering a dungeon. I'm not sure how to get around that either, unfortunately.
The longest games I've been in are those that have minimized the dungeons a great deal, cutting a ton of hem out, and getting us straight to the "good stuff."
@Gerald: I agree, I've seen some of that from the PbP threads that I have had a chance to read. ST doesn't have any true dungeons (at least until the end of the book that is), but it does have a few almost module sized buildings to work through (i.e. Kurasch (sp), the Temple of Orcus, etc); those could be blocked off from the rest of the campaign to an extent, but I left those out of the PbP, especially the Temple, it would cut out at least a third of the campaign (at least page count wise; it's like 300+ pages to 180ish for the city and 145 for the Desolation). I have thought about either amending those portions or cutting them altogether, but that kinda takes some of the fun out of the sails, so I'm not sure what to do there.
I think I would keep them in, LM, but I'd cut them up pretty heavily, and make them a quarter or less of their size. Keep three of four of the major events, and eliminate the fodder. If you use fast xp progression, it should about equal out, when you cut a good portion of the events. And I'll throw my hat in the ring, too, lol.
OK that leads to my next question to all: How to handle XP. I've seen some use the medium or fast progression lines and some seem to just arbitrarily say (You've leveled!) Which way is better?
And yes, Gerald, I'll keep you in mind as well. :)
Depends how you plan on running it. If you are going to cut bits and pieces, Id speed up the xp to fast, or I'd just use the arbitrary system. If you don't cut out much, using the medium pace should keep everything pretty consistent with the authors plans.
Of course, the adventure is so hard, and there will be so many deaths, it really is just needed for replacement PCs!
I can definitely corroborate the Rogue dominating the posts in a dungeon. I play a rogue(-like, since he currently doesn't have class levels yet :p) character in a way of the wicked pbp which features a short dungeon in the early stages, and most of the posting was just me for that section until we got to combats, or more interactive areas. If you have a rogue with the trap spotter rogue trick or are just a particularly nice DM then you could probably keep the party together a bit more.
As far as XP I haven't quite decided myself. I'll definitely be keeping track of XP myself but not sure if I'll be divvying it out to the players at all to allow the possibility of the arbitrary level up as well. I haven't read much of it, but I'd say Fast Track would probably be okay for Slumbering Tsar
@VC: Yea, I was getting the same impression that Fast Track seems to be the way to go, although I have not seen any GM's give out XP in the game (maybe the discussion threads?). I can certainly see where the game could get bogged down if all we did for two weeks real time was roll for traps and stuff.
Manticore
I wasn't critiquing your suggested posting rate. It is what it is. I was merely commenting on the practical difficulty of matching that with your intended goal (progress in ST I can only assume). The starting with 7 was the bigger problem issue I saw as it would exacerbate all the other challanges.
But don't take my word for it. Things will be immediately apparent when you start. I guess noone applying for a ST PBP game is going to have any illusions that your going to end up getting anywhere near finishing it.
I don't think maptools has an adroid version. Mocking something up in google docs might be better in that case. In any event MT needs several hours upfront investment in working out how to use it and building your image library. Then things become much easier. If I can extract from the pdf I can build any map with tokens in a half hour or so.
As for dungeon exploration I think you just need to automate it paying attention to what your players want to do (ie always go left, search for traps, rush through etc). Its the only way to stop things slowing to a crawl. I just finished chapter 2 of LOF which is the big dungeon chapter of the AP that way and still doing most of the encounters.
@DM Dan E: Sorry it took so long to get back to you, long weekend.
I wasn't really taking it as a criticism, but you do have a point about ST having a really low chance of finishing on a PbP thread. I was thinking of MT on a tablet because I might have to refer to it on occasion from work, and it would be nice to just pop it up, but as far as creating the maps and tokens, I have a laptop that I'll use for that purpose. Is it possible to take a map finished on MT and save it as a pdf just to reference later?
Finally, what do you mean when you say "dungeon exploration...automate it...?" Is it a way to keep the descriptions to a minimum and let the characters just run with it? If it is something obvious, I apologize in advance; it's Monday and I have been up since 5am :)
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One more thing. When I was idly thinking about running game I spent about a month or so fiddling around with maptools. I learnt how to pull out the backgrounds from pdfs (you need the electronic version of course) and put them in as background in maptools. I built up a big image library. I learnt how to create player and monster tokens with tokentools. I worked out how to host them (with google documents in my case).
Then when I did start GMing a game (ironically by taking one over rather than starting my own as I had planned) I wasn't far off making basic combat maps. Those first ones were rough and took a while. They're still pretty rough but I can now do them very quickly. With more than 30 combats posted in two chapters worth of AP that is absolutely critical.
You don't need to use the same process but you do need to have a process or at least part of one.
I have a personal theory that a very large proportion of new games that die do so because the GM takes 4 hours to try and do his first map. After failing he quits the whole thing in frustration.
In my case I'd already spent those 4 hours trying to work out what to do. I'd suggest you try that as well. Don't even recruit until you have a mock up of the map for the first encounter.
I found scaling/matching pdf-extracted images to maptools really difficult, just lining up the squares... Any hints?
Nothing that I can provide Geraint, I haven't had a chance to look at MT yet.