P6 Codex - E6+Pathfinder


Homebrew

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Liberty's Edge

This is something I just thought of that could limit the discrepancy of post level 6 play in P6 between character level and accumulated character wealth.

Magical Encumbrance

This would allow characters to continue to amass wealth but only give them access to a level appropriate amount of items at any given time. This may seem limiting but in something like P6 it actually increases the number of options.

Basically what the rule does is limit the magic items a character has access to at any given moment by using the wealth by level table. Again, this may seem limiting but it makes for some great utility to a character of level 7 or 8 capability but 12th level wealth while keeping the game balanced for the GM when building encounters or adventures.


Jr. Annalist wrote:

Correct, they get to choose the higher level combat feat as part of taking the "Signature Combat Feat" feat. So it only takes that one slot to get the improved critical... assuming they had a 6 BAB at 6th level and then took the Combat Improvement epic feat.

I'll go back and look at the wording again to see if I can clarify that.

Thank you for the quick response. I'm looking forward to the full version. I do like the inclusion of many of the other feats and options in the other books and the 6th level cap limits the game-breaking combos to a large extent.


Dotting


The in progress alpha ( http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf ) has the cleric added to it along with the domains. Especially looking for comments on whether the Divine Mystic archetype looks balanced (and its name), and whether the Forest domain looks ok. The druid and a solid proof-reading should be coming in the next few days.

@Joshua Goudreau: Thanks for the link. Advice/rules for post 6th treasure is something I'll have to think about more.


so during post 6th-level epic advancement I can take a signature feat when ever. what epic level can i take my second signature feat. e10 or e11?

would i be eligible for signature feats at (e1 and e10) or (e1 and e11?)

Also in your Alpha document you mention not using Backgrounds or Alternate FavClass Bonuses...what do you mean by Backgrounds?
Traits?


Sandbox wrote:

so during post 6th-level epic advancement I can take a signature feat when ever. what epic level can i take my second signature feat. e10 or e11?

would i be eligible for signature feats at (e1 and e10) or (e1 and e11?)

First at e1 and second at e10 (third at 20, etc...). 10 seemed a bit easier to remember than 11 and matched with 10 well-chosen epic feats putting you at about 8th level for the purposes of encounters.

Sandbox wrote:
Also in your Alpha document you mention not using Backgrounds or Alternate FavClass Bonuses...what do you mean by Backgrounds? Traits?

Should have said Traits, thanks! I'll fix with the next upload in a day or two that has the Druid. I completely understand why some GMs would like traits, so I'll probably have a blurb in the final version about them being one of the things I didn't include and where they can be found. They struck me as a bit power-creepy, and not quite worth the bang for the effort in terms of added character creation time/complexity , page count, and wondering about which ones are worth including or not based on being too useless or too good. I am planning on adding a single feat that will allow for some of the more common aspects of traits (adding new class skill(s) or smaller skill bonus(es) than skill focus) and the section on races will have some of the alternate racial features.


i know traits can be cheesy but they also could be helpful in making P6 a little more survivable and flavorful.

I'm building up a halforc bountyhunter/stalker-type ranger and i like the racial trait that gives halforcs a +5 bonus to appear human.

that and picking up IndomitableFaith to help that weak willsave and lots of roleplaying opportunity. usually have to dump at least 1 or 2 ranks into knowledge religion then


I am a strong proponent of background traits. I've gone so far as to give carte blanc to my players that if they can't find a trait that fits their character, they may build their own. "Make X a class skill and give +1 to X" or "a +1 to X type of saves (will, poison, enchantment, etc.)" or another minor boon that makes their character mechanically different from every other level 1 character of that class. There are a few background traits that are a bit powerful for trait status (preferred spell, I'm looking at you) but others are just fine. I'd rather not throw the baby out with the bathwater on these because a few a power creepy.

I'd really suggest putting in a generic background trait option in the ruleset that allows for +1 to X skill where X is also made a class skill, or +1 to a specific subset of saves (spell school, spell keyword like fire or emotion, poison, etc. but not all fort or ref or will).


You talked me into thinking about them more... I have to get over my initial view of them being just a way to try and make min-maxers take something flavorful role-playing-wise without having to give up a feat.


The Druid is added to the alpha at: P6Codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf. It allows for different terrains as part of the base class instead of just the foresty default of Woodland Stride and Resist Nature's Lure. A few extra animal companions were added from the Bestiaries as well.

Grand Lodge

Nice


just a note: i think in your druid CaveTerrain section, you mention "exceptional abilities"; they should be extraordinary abilities


Dotted.

Scarab Sages

This isn't entirely on topic, but are there any plans to playtest these rules coming up? I'm busy with Pathfinder Society and other tabletop RPGs, but I would definitely try to make time to playtest this sort of system online. I haven't had as much exposure to E6 (or P6, clearly) as I would like, so...


Sandbox wrote:
just a note: i think in your druid CaveTerrain section, you mention "exceptional abilities"; they should be extraordinary abilities

Thanks, I should have caught that! The PRD and printed APG both have exceptional for several of the domains. (d20pfsrd caught it like you did). I'll fix all those with the next upload.

Amir Hiram wrote:
This isn't entirely on topic, but are there any plans to playtest these rules coming up?

I've seen a half dozen or so games here and on other sites that have mentioned using the rules (find them by googleing p6 codex and looking for posts linking to the various p6codex web-pages), but my schedule isn't being helpful for setting anything up formally myself.

I'm hoping to track down all those using it so far to get reports.


in regards to your Druid Terrain stuff-
for as true as you are to Core i would nix the Terrain stuff. while i like the idea, it seems a departure from what you've done so far. it encourages more min/maxing.

maybe add it to a future release as an option for themed campaigns.

my 2cp


Sandbox wrote:

in regards to your Druid Terrain stuff-

for as true as you are to Core i would nix the Terrain stuff. while i like the idea, it seems a departure from what you've done so far. it encourages more min/maxing.

maybe add it to a future release as an option for themed campaigns.

my 2cp

Thanks for the feedback.

The main goal for full P6 Codex is to take the abridged (just-core) part and add in some of the other options that don't change the feel too much. I've been trying to approach all the classes I've modified for the alpha in the same way - look for powers that seem pretty narrow in the Core, where there are other options in the archetypes that are of similar power and that seem to share an underlying theme with the Core power they're replacing.

For the Barbarian, the fast movement didn't seem to make much sense for a mounted barbarian or a viking type - and there were a few options that seemed of similar power and could also be tied to movement. For the bard it was selecting the options to sub-out for the bardic knowledge (things they might have focused on in their training - combat or social skills instead of knowledge) and choosing additional performances. For example, the added options for the 6th level powers both work off of fascinate, just like the original suggestion. For the cleric it was picking a few extra domains that seemed to fill gaps and were different enough from the existing ones. In the case of the druid, the archetypes seemed to highlight that the core druid was really tied into just the forest and not all of nature (they notably didn't make a forest druid archetype). Subbing out Woodland Stride and Resist Nature's Lure for the parallel terrain power seemed to fix that.

Does that one seem different because the powers went together in a pair, unlike the substitutions for the other classes? (I was thinking that having them in a pair would reduce people choosing powers that didn't share a theme in order to min-max). Or do you think some of the options seem abusable or over-powered compared to the original? If some of them seem out of balance, then I'm certainly willing to address that! Or did I miss the gist of your concern?


After reading your post I see where you're coming from now.

Next point...wealth! Any ideas? Seems like a major discussion point for your P6 system. How should wealth continue to accumulate? I know many people don't like the WBL chart. I was particularly stung when I looked for a Minor(mind you) cloak of displacement for my ranger(getting my WoT on)and saw the price compared to WBL. Even crafting it would be pricey.

Any thoughts on how wealth should continue to accumulate into epic advancement levels? Or at least guidance/advice for Dm's


One of the elements I think will make P6 nice is the class balance or even the rise of the martial characters as the premier heroes of the game. Having not tried it yet, but hoping to with our group, I got to thinking about that a bit more and I'm not sure. I'm curious about others experiences.

Taking a look at a couple of SoD options like color spray and sleep I actually think P6 might even tip the scales in favor of casters. I could put together a fey sorcerer with the standard array that would have a DC18 sleep spell at level 1 (19 at 2 with a 20 and 21 for hideous laughter and deep slumber respectively). A gnome sorcerer could hit DC18 with color spray. All of these using core rulebooks. I can't imagine many opponents hitting those saves in those levels. Normally these are focus spells because they fade with time but in P6 they are effective for the entire range of a campaign. Is that an issue or not really a problem?

Grand Lodge

Jr. Annalist wrote:
I'm looking forward to any comments, especially on places you think it might be missing its target.

I've been part of a year-long E6 game that's undergone several rules revisions as my group of 6-7 players and rotating DMs struggles to get it just right.

What we've found so far is that it's much easier to simply cap the game at 6th level and dole out bonus feats every 3 sessions after that. No leaning forward feats, no watered-down capstone abilities, or anything like that.

We make full use of retraining, though, and the low level cap has made it fun and effective for people to start new characters from time to time. Anyway, the point is that I'm not sure E6 really needs a huge sourcebook. The simpler the rules, the better.

Grand Lodge

Dotting again for when I get a min.


Fighter is up now http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf.

Sandbox wrote:
Any thoughts on how wealth should continue to accumulate into epic advancement levels? Or at least guidance/advice for Dm's

I need more time and checking into long running e6 campaigns to decide on that one. What are your first guesses?

Trample wrote:
Taking a look at a couple of SoD options like color spray and sleep I actually think P6 might even tip the scales in favor of casters. I could put together a fey sorcerer with the standard array that would have a DC18 sleep spell at level 1 (19 at 2 with a 20 and 21 for hideous laughter and deep slumber respectively). A gnome sorcerer could hit DC18 with color spray. All of these using core rulebooks. I can't imagine many opponents hitting those saves in those levels.

Is that a problem with any character that's optimized with a 20 in a stat in regular PF too? (How much damage can an optimized melee character dish out?) Right now I'm trying not to change the spells/class abilities/etc that show up at level 6 or lower -- but after it's played a while I can imagine some things showing up that might be worth considering. Would a suggested point buy that made 16+ ability scores more expensive be over-kill and not fix the problem that much?

Headfirst wrote:
What we've found so far is that it's much easier to simply cap the game at 6th level and dole out bonus feats every 3 sessions after that. No leaning forward feats, no watered-down capstone abilities, or anything like that.

It seems like what people are looking for in E6 varies a lot from group to group - a lot of posters seem to want E8 or to do gestalt, and others want to keep it solidly at 6. :::shrugs::: I'm just aiming for the spot I want and hoping it can be useful for some other groups too.

Thinking about calibrating things, how many sessions does it generally take you to level pre-6th.

Any thoughts in regards to Sandbox's question about whether there are issues managing wealth post-6th?

Headfirst wrote:
We make full use of retraining, though,

Just the standard Ultimate Campaign retraining, or some house rules?


Jr. Annalist wrote:


Trample wrote:
Taking a look at a couple of SoD options like color spray and sleep I actually think P6 might even tip the scales in favor of casters. I could put together a fey sorcerer with the standard array that would have a DC18 sleep spell at level 1 (19 at 2 with a 20 and 21 for hideous laughter and deep slumber respectively). A gnome sorcerer could hit DC18 with color spray. All of these using core rulebooks. I can't imagine many opponents hitting those saves in those levels.

Is that a problem with any character that's optimized with a 20 in a stat in regular PF too? (How much damage can an optimized melee character dish out?) Right now I'm trying not to change the spells/class abilities/etc that show up at level 6 or lower -- but after it's played a while I can imagine some things showing up that might be worth considering. Would a suggested point buy that made 16+ ability scores more expensive be over-kill and not fix the problem that much?

Perhaps. Color Spray and Sleep are a couple of interesting examples of uber spells that fade pretty quickly with time, which P6 would eliminate. I'm not saying it's wrong or bad, but rather curious as to the impact and if P6 really tips the scales away from casters ruling the game.

Also, note my examples are standard array, so I'm thinking a 15 as the high stat before racial modifiers, so we're talking about a 17 starting stat (which actually makes my math wrong - sleep is DC17 at 1st, 18 at 3rd, and 19 at 4th).

Grand Lodge

Jr. Annalist wrote:
Thinking about calibrating things, how many sessions does it generally take you to level pre-6th.

My group uses a 1 exp per session system. Does anyone out there actually still use the thousands of experience point system anymore? :)

The difference is, we have an increasing scale, so that it only takes 1 session to go from level 1 to 2, then two more sessions from 2 to 3, etc.

In the end, it takes 15 sessions to reach 6th level, then we give out one bonus feat every 3 sessions thereafter.

You'll notice that this is exactly the same amount of experience points (game sessions) that it takes to get to 6th level in Pathfinder Society. This is intentional.


are you stuck slogging through monk archetypes?


Sandbox wrote:
are you stuck slogging through monk archetypes?

I've got them pretty much finished and a few other mostly done. Just been buried at work. Things should be smooth sailing in about a week and I'll start cranking through them.

Thanks for the push!


dotting.


.


meibellum wrote:
.

And again.


I don't know how this thread managed to escape my notice for so long; the Codex looks awesome thus far. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
JTibbs wrote:

Spellcasters are severely limited at 6th level... They have almost no offensive endurance.

The idea is to keep spell casters down to the Black Company books level of power. Instead of being gods among men, they are just one of the boys.


How's it going?

Grand Lodge

Yes... progress?


anything goin on here?


Sandbox wrote:
anything goin on here?

Finally cleaned the decks of my big summer project for work, and am working on it now! Should have the next two classes up in a few days with the others coming out in a steady stream.

Thanks for the continued pushes and interest!


Jr. Annalist wrote:

Finally cleaned the decks of my big summer project for work, and am working on it now! Should have the next two classes up in a few days with the others coming out in a steady stream.

Thanks for the continued pushes and interest!

Excellent!


I had to look up what E6 is and now that I know, it sounds very interesting, so this the post by which I dot this thread for later.


Not to be a nitpicker, but...
Just browsing through the PDF, I bumped into a typo. Page 2, right column, line 9; "Ultimate" is mis-spelled as "Unlimited".
Other than that: dotting for later.


http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf now has the Magus and Monk added. Neither are very far off from the Core rules, but I had to decide on where some of the material should go. In particular, including some of the more magical feeling Monks seemed like it changed the feel of the classic monk too much to make it the baseline. The overview at the front of the file now notes that the supplement after core will contain all of the elemental related monk powers and styles (as well as various other things related to alchemy/elements). The Bloodline Magus will go under Sorcerer instead of Magus as it shares a lot more mechanics with the former rather than the later.

I'm hoping to keep the momentum going... and the Paladin should be a bit more exciting since I'm working on the Domain Paladin alternate class (to fill the more general role between cleric and fighter).

@Propsken: Gack! I thought I fixed that before. I'll try and get an update of it up in the next day or so.

Everyone should feel free to send me any other typos they notice (in addition to any substantive questions/comments).


Paladin and an alternate paladin added.


>.>


Dotted


The domain Paladin unlocking alignments seems like a very large step away from core for a project so deeply rooted in core rules...

:(


Sandbox wrote:

The domain Paladin unlocking alignments seems like a very large step away from core for a project so deeply rooted in core rules...

:(

I can certainly see that view!

Over the years, having only the LG religious fighter (Paladin) and the one based on nature (Ranger) has seemed like one of the glaring holes in the game most in need of filling. And the game has a long history of trying to fill it - for example old dragon magazine that had "paladins" for the other eight alignments (for 1e?). Pathfinder has the Crusader cleric archetype, Sacred Servant paladin archetype, and the upcoming Warpriest in the Advanced Class Guide.

In this case, since I'm thinking of adding the less-fighty cleric archetype, adding the more-fighty one seemed to both fill that gap and be a nice counterbalance.

Would simply labeling it a cleric archetype (Divine Champion?) instead of a Paladin one have felt better?

---

I'm also wondering about where to put a few of the non-core things - I'm thinking of giving the full treatment to the Alchemist (and Investigator), the elemental using Monks, and elemental Wizards. I was originally thinking about putting them in a separate supplement, but then those wanting to use them would have to look up some of their feats and spells in a different spot.

I'm gathering you certainly don't want them shuffled in among the other classes in the same "Chapter". I keep flip-flopping on how I want to do it.

Would an "Optional" chapter with those, the Magus, the divine mystic and the domain paladin/divine champion be something that would seem natural.

(In any case, the Abridged P6 Codex is going to stay strictly Core like it is now.)

---

Other classes look reasonable so far?


I'm reading the abridged now, and i've gotta say one thing.
A giant red neon reciting "FEAT TAX HERE" would have been more soubtle than the description of Ability Training.


Dekalinder wrote:

I'm reading the abridged now, and i've gotta say one thing.

A giant red neon reciting "FEAT TAX HERE" would have been more soubtle than the description of Ability Training.

The one from the original(?) E6 rules I took that and Ability Advancement from didn't even give the floating +1 bonus.

I'm not sure if there's an elegant way of doing it. Giving two feats at +1 to the ability each (instead of giving +2 on the second feat) seemed to put too much gamesmanship on choosing the initial ability scores. :::shrugs:::

Would it seem better to have a +2 bonus on the ability that lasted a certain amount of time instead of the floating +1 bonus on the roll?


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Sandbox wrote:

The domain Paladin unlocking alignments seems like a very large step away from core for a project so deeply rooted in core rules...

:(

Ok, just added the first draft of the ranger to http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf

and, took your suggestion to back out the archetypes/alternate/non-core classes to http://p6codex.com/P6CodexFormularieAlpha.pdf .


in the ranger Favored enemy i think you can get rid of the "at each such interval..." language because in P6 you're only going to be getting 2 FE's.

Ex-rangers section talks about Druid advancement

you may want to include a comment about 2nd level spells being accessible through the EpicMartial Caster feat. Maybe not?


have you gotten any feedback on the Wealth past 6 issue...
that type of game mastery and balance is beyond me unfortunately.


you may give a "fake" +2 with the first feat like +1 to all tied skill check witch would make it a rather interesting stand alone feat, that you can upgrade into a real +2 with the second one

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