Wizard vs Sorcerer.....State your case


Advice

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Undone wrote:

Wizard over sorc.

1) Wizards now get the same number of relevant spells as sorc (1 + school spell + bonded item vs 3)
2) Bonded item and other methods can give the wizard psudo spont casting.
3) Wizard's scale on int, more skills vs more diplomacy.
4) Versatility
5) There's even a way to default to spell X if you tale the feat.
6) Pearls of power cost half the spont casting equivalent
7) Infinitely superior wizard only feats

In short being a wizard who can't figure out what spells to prep is a feat tax. You only need a handful of spells in your book the twelve scrolls on your belt will see to that. 7 is the one that gets me the most. Standard action summons? Oh that's wizard not sorc. Free metamagic? Oh that's wizard not sorc.

Wizards are just better at most tasks but sorcs are highly powered classes as well because they draw from the same list. Playing a sorc is like playing a high performance sports car instead of a million dollar custom job. Both are amazing, impressive and fantastic machines but one edges the other out in just about every category.

I agree with 6 and 7, however I respect the elegance and simplicity that a sorcerer offers.

It would completely depend on the type of game I was playing and who else I have in the party whether or not I roll a sorcerer or a wizard.


I think it comes down to bloodline powers or specializiation powers with feats you can get.

So depends on what you wanna do. Now for blasting multiclassign focusing on the wizard is is your best bet. Conjuroring with acadamea graduate give the wizard the advantage. Save of suck spells. I would go with the sorcerer for the bloodline give much more to the type of spells you wish to use and their DCs.

If you are generalists. Then whatever.


Undone wrote:

Wizard over sorc.

1) Wizards now get the same number of relevant spells as sorc (1 + school spell + bonded item vs 3)
2) Bonded item and other methods can give the wizard psudo spont casting.
3) Wizard's scale on int, more skills vs more diplomacy.
4) Versatility
5) There's even a way to default to spell X if you tale the feat.
6) Pearls of power cost half the spont casting equivalent
7) Infinitely superior wizard only feats

In short being a wizard who can't figure out what spells to prep is a feat tax. You only need a handful of spells in your book the twelve scrolls on your belt will see to that. 7 is the one that gets me the most. Standard action summons? Oh that's wizard not sorc. Free metamagic? Oh that's wizard not sorc.

Wizards are just better at most tasks but sorcs are highly powered classes as well because they draw from the same list. Playing a sorc is like playing a high performance sports car instead of a million dollar custom job. Both are amazing, impressive and fantastic machines but one edges the other out in just about every category.

Bonded Item = 1spell/day - so hardly and equivalent to the Sorcerer beyond 4th level.

Again 1 spell/day for 'pseudo' spontaneous casting - again hardly the equivalent.
More skills yes, concede that one.
The human and the half-elf Sorcerer each have their own unique ways of having a broader spell selection or able to get whatever feat/spell they want for a short while.
Pearls of power are not available to buy in all games.
The wizard abilities are not 'infinitely superior' - and the Sorcerer bloodlines give you the ability to tailor your character to a far greater degree.

The Sorcerer still gets more spells but at a slower spell progression, is far better with meta-magic feats because they can apply them with more freedom according to the situation and (and I find I repeat this a lot because no wizard advocate has replied to it) the Sorcerer can contribute more TO THE PARTY. Most Wizards don't have enough utility spells memorised (fly, invisibility) to cast on more than 1 or 2 people - a Sorcerer can cast their utility spells on many more characters if required.


strayshift wrote:
Undone wrote:

Wizard over sorc.

1) Wizards now get the same number of relevant spells as sorc (1 + school spell + bonded item vs 3)
2) Bonded item and other methods can give the wizard psudo spont casting.
3) Wizard's scale on int, more skills vs more diplomacy.
4) Versatility
5) There's even a way to default to spell X if you tale the feat.
6) Pearls of power cost half the spont casting equivalent
7) Infinitely superior wizard only feats

In short being a wizard who can't figure out what spells to prep is a feat tax. You only need a handful of spells in your book the twelve scrolls on your belt will see to that. 7 is the one that gets me the most. Standard action summons? Oh that's wizard not sorc. Free metamagic? Oh that's wizard not sorc.

Wizards are just better at most tasks but sorcs are highly powered classes as well because they draw from the same list. Playing a sorc is like playing a high performance sports car instead of a million dollar custom job. Both are amazing, impressive and fantastic machines but one edges the other out in just about every category.

Bonded Item = 1spell/day - so hardly and equivalent to the Sorcerer beyond 4th level.

Again 1 spell/day for 'pseudo' spontaneous casting - again hardly the equivalent.
More skills yes, concede that one.
The human and the half-elf Sorcerer each have their own unique ways of having a broader spell selection or able to get whatever feat/spell they want for a short while.
Pearls of power are not available to buy in all games.
The wizard abilities are not 'infinitely superior' - and the Sorcerer bloodlines give you the ability to tailor your character to a far greater degree.

The Sorcerer still gets more spells but at a slower spell progression, is far better with meta-magic feats because they can apply them with more freedom according to the situation and (and I find I repeat this a lot because no wizard advocate has replied to it) the Sorcerer can contribute more TO THE PARTY. Most Wizards don't have...

Bonded item at level 1-2 makes you equal. A pearl of power 1 makes you equal at level 3, and so on and so on. Wizards, especially in a home game where you can craft PoP's, are far ahead in spells not equal not behind. If pearls of power are unavailable... I'm not sure what to say I've never had a game where you had access to any magic items and couldn't find a PoP or craft one. Even in PFS you should be able to access the PoP back a level every single time at the cost of about half a levels worth of gold or a little more.

They only need 1 of each spell at most a wizard needs 6-7 combat spells because that should be enough for the day. At 9th plus you can prep 10 or more easily. A summon monster spell is a strong contribution to combat without casting another spell but you can still cast haste to buff the group for massive damage (Haste has the highest damage of all spells).

The sorcerer is king of metamagic? Full round metamagic is super sad times. They have lower level spell slots half the time (And thus less options to metamagic) and fewer ways to reduce the level of the metamagic.

Wizards abilities are roughly comparable possibly slightly ahead (in some areas like summoning) but the wizard only feats make a mockery of the sorcerer only feats. Additionally the sorcerer gets fewer feats.

Sorcerers are the preferred/popular casters because of the following reasons and there's nothing wrong with that but it seems like people don't like the immense and unnecessary flexibility afforded the wizard in pathfinder.

1) Sorcerers are easy to play.
-Set it and forget it spell list
-Raw power over a finely tuned machine
-No spell book to keep track of

2) Sorcerers are fun to play.
-You don't cast a save or suck watch the baddies fail and then lounge about while the party coup de gras the enemies
-You can in any encounter blast or control depending on the party if the enemy has good reflex saves you don't need grease
-No need to predict enemies (Going after rogues guild? Prep color spay/charm dust not grease/web)

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the sorcerer but to say anything other than that the wizard feats are better is blatantly false. The Pearl of powers keep the prepared casters ahead of anyone else. Getting more spells is an illusion, practically speaking they get less.


Undone wrote:
strayshift wrote:
Undone wrote:

Wizard over sorc.

1) Wizards now get the same number of relevant spells as sorc (1 + school spell + bonded item vs 3)
2) Bonded item and other methods can give the wizard psudo spont casting.
3) Wizard's scale on int, more skills vs more diplomacy.
4) Versatility
5) There's even a way to default to spell X if you tale the feat.
6) Pearls of power cost half the spont casting equivalent
7) Infinitely superior wizard only feats

In short being a wizard who can't figure out what spells to prep is a feat tax. You only need a handful of spells in your book the twelve scrolls on your belt will see to that. 7 is the one that gets me the most. Standard action summons? Oh that's wizard not sorc. Free metamagic? Oh that's wizard not sorc.

Wizards are just better at most tasks but sorcs are highly powered classes as well because they draw from the same list. Playing a sorc is like playing a high performance sports car instead of a million dollar custom job. Both are amazing, impressive and fantastic machines but one edges the other out in just about every category.

Bonded Item = 1spell/day - so hardly and equivalent to the Sorcerer beyond 4th level.

Again 1 spell/day for 'pseudo' spontaneous casting - again hardly the equivalent.
More skills yes, concede that one.
The human and the half-elf Sorcerer each have their own unique ways of having a broader spell selection or able to get whatever feat/spell they want for a short while.
Pearls of power are not available to buy in all games.
The wizard abilities are not 'infinitely superior' - and the Sorcerer bloodlines give you the ability to tailor your character to a far greater degree.

The Sorcerer still gets more spells but at a slower spell progression, is far better with meta-magic feats because they can apply them with more freedom according to the situation and (and I find I repeat this a lot because no wizard advocate has replied to it) the Sorcerer can contribute more TO THE

...

I agree, the metamagic thing doesn't really invalidate the wizard as a class, you just have to have an idea of what you want to apply your metamagic to, or buy dat quicken rod, but then again sorcs can also use the quicken rod so that doesn't really affect the argument except in the fact that the wizard can get the feat to make it for free and get it for half price, basically letting the wizard quicken twice as many spells for the same price that a sorcerer can.

Bloodline Feats make the sorcerers more combat handy, wizards are utility casters, it's the way it has always been.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Undone wrote:
strayshift wrote:
Undone wrote:

Wizard over sorc.

1) Wizards now get the same number of relevant spells as sorc (1 + school spell + bonded item vs 3)
2) Bonded item and other methods can give the wizard psudo spont casting.
3) Wizard's scale on int, more skills vs more diplomacy.
4) Versatility
5) There's even a way to default to spell X if you tale the feat.
6) Pearls of power cost half the spont casting equivalent
7) Infinitely superior wizard only feats

In short being a wizard who can't figure out what spells to prep is a feat tax. You only need a handful of spells in your book the twelve scrolls on your belt will see to that. 7 is the one that gets me the most. Standard action summons? Oh that's wizard not sorc. Free metamagic? Oh that's wizard not sorc.

Wizards are just better at most tasks but sorcs are highly powered classes as well because they draw from the same list. Playing a sorc is like playing a high performance sports car instead of a million dollar custom job. Both are amazing, impressive and fantastic machines but one edges the other out in just about every category.

Bonded Item = 1spell/day - so hardly and equivalent to the Sorcerer beyond 4th level.

Again 1 spell/day for 'pseudo' spontaneous casting - again hardly the equivalent.
More skills yes, concede that one.
The human and the half-elf Sorcerer each have their own unique ways of having a broader spell selection or able to get whatever feat/spell they want for a short while.
Pearls of power are not available to buy in all games.
The wizard abilities are not 'infinitely superior' - and the Sorcerer bloodlines give you the ability to tailor your character to a far greater degree.

The Sorcerer still gets more spells but at a slower spell progression, is far better with meta-magic feats because they can apply them with more freedom according to the situation and (and I find I repeat this a lot because no wizard advocate has replied to it) the Sorcerer can

...

What you are both arguing though is ITEM PLUS CLASS makes Wizard superior - not Class vs Class. I don't allow free access to the buying of magic and nor do many dm's I know - certainly more that allow total access. As I said take out metamagic rods and pearls of power, etc from your arguments and I fail to see where (apart from skills) Wizards are superior.

And no one has yet countered the very basic point that a Sorcerer can use their utility spells for a whole party quite often whereas a Wizard almost never has enough spells of a specific utility memorised - usually themselves plus 1 at best.


Has the OP even showed up after the first post?

"What a co-inky-dink!" Popeye.

OP has 6 posts total...4 last sept about first time running a cleric...1 last nov about running a sorceress with a fire bloodline...then nothing til/since 2 june...

What do these posters get out of starting these threads?


I really only skimmed the thread, I love wizards, I always have. Even so, I was firmly in the camp that Sorcerers were far superior than Wizards. I was absolutely convinced of it, and it made me mad. Then I had a high powered game coming up, and decided to try a Wizard. While I was creating the wizard I started looking at the feats. There are so many feats that allow a Wizard to switch out one spell for another. That means as a Wizard I could memorize all utility spells, and then switch them out to blasting spells at will. Every slot a wizard has can be utility or damage, depending on what they need.

Oh look we need to go to the bottom of this lake, good thing the Wizard has Water Breathing... Oh look we're in the middle of the Desert fighting a dragon, doubt I'll need Water Breathing, think I'll make it Cone of Cold instead. Yeah that's power.

Grand Lodge

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I don't consider either "superior". At worst it's a flamebait ludicrous question. At best, it's more of a self examination of what class is best suited to your personal play style. I've enjoyed playing both,and plan to play more of each in the future. My sorcerers and wizards are vastly different characters from each other, and in there lies the tale.


LazarX wrote:
I don't consider either "superior". At worst it's a flamebait ludicrous question. At best, it's more of a self examination of what class is best suited to your personal play style. I've enjoyed playing both,and plan to play more of each in the future. My sorcerers and wizards are vastly different characters from each other, and in there lies the tale.

I've played in campaigns as a sorcerer with a wizard in the party. We played so vastly differently that we didn't even begin to step on each other toes.


Marthkus wrote:
LazarX wrote:
I don't consider either "superior". At worst it's a flamebait ludicrous question. At best, it's more of a self examination of what class is best suited to your personal play style. I've enjoyed playing both,and plan to play more of each in the future. My sorcerers and wizards are vastly different characters from each other, and in there lies the tale.
I've played in campaigns as a sorcerer with a wizard in the party. We played so vastly differently that we didn't even begin to step on each other toes.

Ditto. I did a huge amount more, they made sure they were safe.


Fender_Brawnanvil wrote:

So i have been thinking about trying out a arcane casting class but cant figure out which on to try so i just want to hear opinions and pros and cons.

Thanks

At low levels, they are pretty even, but I think power creep has made the wizard ridiculous at higher levels.

Once you start getting spells with durations longer than a day, I think the wizard pulls ahead. For instance, Animate Dead and contingency both cost the sorcerer a spell known.

Also, at higher levels the wizard afford to leave low level spell slots open and in a few minutes minute(with the Arcane discovery), he can prepare spells to solve any problem that isn't time sensitive.

On my old wizard, I had probably 20-30 low level spells known that could solve a wide variety of puzzles the GM put forth.

Just look through the list of low level spells and see how many could potentially be useful on a rare occassion. At higher levels, you can cheaply know all of those spells.


Marthkus wrote:


Wizard benefits more from a player's skill.
Sorcerer benefits more from a player's ability to build well.

This is the general consensus, but wrong I think. I believe the wizard is the easier class to play because of the longer term flexibility and knowledge skills which give them the ability to pull the right set of resources into the right situation. As others have pointed out, the wizard often still has enough spontaneous options to always have the old standbys available when necessary.

A sorcerer has to adapt to his situation with clever application of spells. True, good upfront building makes this easier to do, but far more skill is applied in my opinion to this task than to the extremely simple task of selecting a spell list for a particular and singular effort.


strayshift wrote:
And no one has yet countered the very basic point that a Sorcerer can use their utility spells for a whole party quite often whereas a Wizard almost never has enough spells of a specific utility memorised - usually themselves plus 1 at best.

I'll take a stab at this.

Your main point seems to be that the Sorcerer can, for example, cast Fly on everyone in the party. Of course that would mean using 4 or 5 3rd level spells to get the whole party over a chasm, or whatever. Or maybe casting Resist Energy on everyone when faced with a monster that does a particular type of damage. That's great and all, but it might be overkill for the situation and you just blew a huge chunk of your resources on the same spell.

A wizard, faced with the same problem might only have one casting of Fly, but he won't cast it on himself (not if he is smart, which he should be). He will cast it on whatever "tank" character is in the party, or at least someone with a high Str. Once Fly is cast on that person you send them over and cover them with ranged attacks. Assuming everything is clear, Mr. tank can then fly back and ferry characters over one or two at a time.

Now, if it is really necessary for everyone to fly over at the same time, then the sorcerer has the advantage. But in my experience usually high level characters will have some method of flying themselves. The wizard just needs a couple Fly spells to cover those that don't.

The same argument can be made for the Resist Energy situation. The wizard will cast Resist Energy on the members of the party that really need it. Maybe on himself and the archer (or whatever) and trust that the rogue will evade and the tank can just take it, and the cleric can cast Resist Energy herself. Not ideal, but if you are jumped are you going to have 4 or 5 rounds to cast the same spell on everybody anyway?

The disadvantage of the sorcerer is the long duration utility spells. See Invisibility is 10 min/level, but a higher levels I don't know a single wizard that didn't walk around with it cast when we expect trouble (like in a dungeon or raiding the enemy stronghold). If it might take awhile it would be cast with Extension.

Is a sorcerer going to have See Invisibility as a known spell? How about Glitterdust to expose the invisible creature once spotted? Will he also have Resist Energy? How about Web for battlefield control? How about Invisibility? Or Mirror Image? Or Knock? Or Rope Trick? Or one of a dozen other spells that might be useful in the right situation?

Pick just two or three of the above spells. Or even 4 if you are 9th or 10th level. Which spells will the sorcerer actually have available to spam?

I would say that being able to spam one spell multiple times in one particular circumstance is far less useful than being able to cast at least one or two spells that are needed in many more circumstances.


Wizards > Sorcerers by a longshot.

1) Can have EVERY spell (more options).

2) Get higher spell levels sooner - HUGE advantage... HUGE HUGE HUGE.

3) Intelligence is a better stat than Charisma. More skills vs better party face.... but the reason INT wins is that there is better versatility and more skills require INT.

4) Improved Familiar (basically another character that can do rogue-ish things, has your skills and CAN ASSIST YOU ON EVERYTHING for +2, and can cast lowbie spells through wands. Invest in a Wand of Dimension Door (or an item that can cast it 3/day).

5) Leave 1 spell slot open per level and prepare it as needed. This pretty much means out of combat you can have ANY spell of ANY level you know.

6) Wizard Schools have nice abilities, often better than bloodlines.

7) Save Metamagic Mastery for boss fight wins.

Now, if you are the guy that doesn't leave any spell slots open, doesn't know what spells to prepare when you know you are going into a graveyard tonight (or all the enemies were ghosts/outsiders/humanoids), and doesn't every use your familiar's abilities..... the Sorcerer is for you.... niiiiice and safe.


RAW Wizards wipe the floor with sorcerers. Of course that's RAW and as we all know a lot of RAW is bent, if not broken.

The two classes have completely different feels and the question is like asking "which do you prefer? - barbarian or ranger?" "Chevalier or paladin?"

For me Wizards are the traditional mythological characters - studying, researching, laying elaborate plans. Honestly, they're probably the least likely to be PCs - that kind of spontaneity is really hazardous to your health!

Sorcerers are Harry Potter. All charm and self-confidence and whiz-bang, look what I can do.

That's why Wizards wipe the floor with them. Oh, one sorc may get lucky and off a wizard, but repeating the experiment over time and taking into account that most of the time the wizard will choose the time and place for the encounter means that the wizard is going to win the vast majority of the time.

In short, you can't charm and whiz-bang your way through something that needs research, planning and careful thought.

Ok, putting that to one side - Pathfinder is a role playing game and we're frequently obsessed with min-max. (especially wizards, whose min is very min). From an RP point of view, I think the sorcerer offers superior storyline hooks with their bloodline feats. They also have a lot more flavor. In my current campaign i very nearly played a fey bloodline sorcerer instead of the air elemental wizard. I would have totally indulged my inner "peter pan".

In short, find a good back-story and apply the character class that fits best. They're all good.


Ahem [clears throat]

And now the end is near
So I face the final curtain
My friend, I'll say it clear
I'll state my case of which I'm certain

I've lived a life that's full
I've traveled each and every highway
And more, much more than this
I did it my way

Regrets, I've had a few
But then again, too few to mention
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exception

I planned each charted course
Each careful step along the byway
On, and more, much more than this
I did it my way

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew
But through it all when there was doubt
I ate it up and spit it out
I faced it all and I stood tall
And did it my way

I've loved, I've laughed and cried
I've had my fails, my share of losing
And now as tears subside
I find it all so amusing
To think I did all that
And may I say, not in a shy way
No, oh no not me,
I did it my way

For what is a man, what has he got
If not himself, then he has not
To say the words he truly feels
And the words he would reveal
The record shows I took the blows
And did it my way
The record shows I took the blows
And did it my way

[/clears thought]

Performance plus extremely high Charisma. Seems like a Sorcerer to me (could be a Bard, but that isn't an option for this thread).

MA

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