Player Core 2 Preview: The Oracle, Remastered

Wednesday, July 10, 2024

I see it in the flickering of my monitor. I hear it in the cawing of the seagulls fighting over a bagel outside my window. I smell it in my coffee from down the street (not the coffee from up the street—the coffee from the other street, or the coffee from the corner; this is Seattle, after all). For the oracle, coming in Pathfinder Player Core 2, is Remastered.

Oracles are divine spellcasters who draw their power not from prayer or devotion to a deity, but from a firsthand connection to the great mysteries of the universe. This connection is a double-edged sword, though, as gazing too deeply into these mysteries results in terrible backlash in the form of a divine curse. While this unique relationship with the divine and its “power at a price” theme offer strong and appealing roleplaying hooks that are very Golarion (what is the role of an oracle in a world where prophecy is lost?), the original oracle was often thought of as intimidatingly complex or as a class that made the player jump through hoops to unlock its potential. The Remastered oracle has been changed in ways both large and small to reduce its complexity and pain points, while still allowing players who want to risk fate to draw upon their curse to gain power.

The big change: instead of an oracle’s curse giving them a large suite of abilities, some of which are buffs, some of which are debuffs, and some of which might go either way, the oracle’s curse now just strictly debuffs the player. We’ve done it—no, no, no, come back; I promise this made the class stronger!

The iconic oracle, Korakai, fends off a giant squid with his Remastered magical power.

Art by Christoph Peters.


Because the classic oracle’s curses boosted some stats while lowering others, it could be unclear whether being cursed was a benefit you were trying to get ASAP or a price you had to strategically work around. In the Remaster, they’re always a price, which lets us significantly dial up the power that you get for paying it and keeps the trade-off simple to understand: “Cheat the rules of creation for power, and you get cursed.” The new oracle’s cursebound trait appears not on their focus spells, but instead on specific feats and other actions that have a notable advantage over similarly leveled feats, like cheating the action economy, letting you automatically learn about your target without a skill check, or other similar benefits. Each mystery grants a cursebound ability at level 1 to let them draw on this power, like Foretell Harm.

Foretell Harm [free-action] — Feat 1

Cursebound, Divine, Oracle
Frequency Once per round
Requirements Your previous action was to Cast a non-cantrip Spell that dealt damage.

Your magic echoes ominously as you glimpse injury in the target’s future. At the beginning of your target’s next turn, it takes damage equal to twice the triggering spell’s rank as a seemingly random and minor misfortune finds it. The damage and type of misfortune is of a type matching the spell; for instance, if you dealt fire damage, a flame might spontaneously ignite on them or they might burn a hand on their torch. The target is then temporarily immune to Foretell Harm for 24 hours.

However, whenever you use a cursebound ability, your cursebound condition increases in value. This is a unique condition that appears only in the oracle class. As your cursebound condition increases, the deleterious effects of your curse increase as well, like giving you a penalty to certain saving throws or a weakness to certain damage types. Like the classic oracle, the remastered oracle can tolerate higher and higher cursebound values as they increase in level, letting them use more cursebound abilities.

While most of these curse effects are relatively simple, we do know that a lot of oracle players enjoyed the more disruptive curse effects that could really throw variety into your battle. We’ve kept many of these as cursebound feats, like Meddling Futures (where sprits vie for control over your body) or Thousand Visions (where visions of the future grant you great perception within a short range, but overwhelm your senses beyond it), which are now selectable by any mystery. Now, oracle players who want to opt into this complexity can do so, and oracles who want more straightforward benefits can keep it simple.


Other Changes

We’ve also made several smaller changes throughout the oracle! In no particular order:

  • We’ve made it easier to tailor your oracle's spell list to your mystery. Each mystery now grants three thematic spells to an oracle’s repertoire, and all oracles automatically gain a divine access class feature about halfway through their career that lets them expand this list further.
  • We’ve doubled the number of available domains for oracles who want to harness domain magic. All mysteries now grant four related domains—now your battle oracle might gain the destruction domain, or your cosmos oracle the star domain!
  • We’ve added dashes of ominous, portentous, delirious flavor throughout the class to really make you feel like you’re channeling otherworldly powers.
  • With more streamlined mysteries and curses, we had room to add a greater number of unique oracle feats, a thing that was often cited as lacking in the classic oracle. Take a look at a unique feat for ancestors or battle oracles: The Dead Walk!

The Dead Walk [two-actions] — Feat 10

Cursebound, Divine, Oracle
Prerequisites ancestors or battle mystery

You beseech warrior spirits to come forth and aid you. Two ghostly warriors manifest within a 30-foot emanation of you and each attempt a Strike against an adjacent enemy, using your spell attack modifier, and then disappear. The warriors’ Strikes each deal 4d6 spirit damage, and the warriors can flank with one another and with you and your allies. If you are cursebound 2 when you use The Dead Walk, you instead summon three warriors, and if you are cursebound 3, you instead summon four warriors. The warriors disappear at the start of your next turn.

We’re getting close to the release of Player Core 2, with ancestries, archetypes, and more, so be sure to subscribe to the Rulebook line, pre-order the book, or make a note to swing by our booth at Gen Con to check things out—and keep an eye on the future for the last of our Remaster class previews!

James Case (he/him)
Lead Developer, Rules and Lore

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Tags: Pathfinder Pathfinder Remaster Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Second Edition
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YuriP wrote:
That's probably not what will happen.

If my memory serves me well, PFS1 never removed the pre Unchained classes, with the exception of the Summoner who got massively nerfed. So I don't see what the point would be to force a new chassis if you don't like it, especially when the class has been buffed.


_shredder_ wrote:

Legacy ancestors oracle was quite objectively one of the worst subclasses in the system, but it was also probably the mechanically most fun build I ever played here. I loved going all in on the curse and letting the ancestors decide how my character plays every turn. My big hope was that remaster would keep everything that was so incredibly cool and unique about ancestors oracle and its playstyle while making the passive benefits stronger.

From what it looks like the exact opposite happened - all the flavorful ancestor mechanics are gone, and ancestor will now play very similar to other oracles and divine sorcs, while still being not all that good due to getting one of more punishing curses.

While legacy ancestors oracle wasn't perfectly designed, it did an amazing job at making me actually feel like my character is possessed by their ancestors. Mechanics and flavor worked perfectly together. I don't care that the mystery is probably stronger on average now, having as many slots as a sorcerer and becoming clumsy after using a strong spell like ability has just nothing to do with what made ancestors oracle appealing to me in any way.

The old "roll 1d4 and see what you're this round" still exists but as a cursebound feat.

So, if you liked that flavour, you can still do it.

It's just that objectively it was bad to leave it as a chance what to do each round, so I don't think many will be picking said feat.


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shroudb wrote:
_shredder_ wrote:

Legacy ancestors oracle was quite objectively one of the worst subclasses in the system, but it was also probably the mechanically most fun build I ever played here. I loved going all in on the curse and letting the ancestors decide how my character plays every turn. My big hope was that remaster would keep everything that was so incredibly cool and unique about ancestors oracle and its playstyle while making the passive benefits stronger.

From what it looks like the exact opposite happened - all the flavorful ancestor mechanics are gone, and ancestor will now play very similar to other oracles and divine sorcs, while still being not all that good due to getting one of more punishing curses.

While legacy ancestors oracle wasn't perfectly designed, it did an amazing job at making me actually feel like my character is possessed by their ancestors. Mechanics and flavor worked perfectly together. I don't care that the mystery is probably stronger on average now, having as many slots as a sorcerer and becoming clumsy after using a strong spell like ability has just nothing to do with what made ancestors oracle appealing to me in any way.

The old "roll 1d4 and see what you're this round" still exists but as a cursebound feat.

So, if you liked that flavour, you can still do it.

It's just that objectively it was bad to leave it as a chance what to do each round, so I don't think many will be picking said feat.

The cursebound feat meddling futures is absolutely terrible (especially compared to other powerful cursebound feats) and even more punishing and less rewarding than the ancestors curse was, and you have to use it every turn if you want that flavorful mechanic instead of it just being an always on thing that gives you passive benefits, which is extremely restricting and makes the class way more repetitive. My previous ancestors oracle also used a bow to strike when possesed by a warrior ancestor, and becoming clumsier ever round completely kills that type of build - if you want to hit anything with strikes while cursed you need to use melee weapons and prioritize STR now (and enter melee combat with ridiculously bad AC due to clumsy).

An ancestors oracle that picks up one of the many good oracle feats instead of meddling futures, never makes weapon strikes, never interacts with the ancestors mechanic and mostly plays like a normal divine caster with a strong damage focus spell (ancestral touch got a big buff) is absolutely not weak and much stronger than the ancestor oracle I played, but that's just not very interesting to me.

An ancestors oracle who plays fully into the curse and rolls dice to decide which action to take this turn (like the oracle I loved playing) is even weaker than it was before and went from "really not good but you can kinda make it work if you try" to an absolutely awful option.


_shredder_ wrote:
shroudb wrote:
_shredder_ wrote:

Legacy ancestors oracle was quite objectively one of the worst subclasses in the system, but it was also probably the mechanically most fun build I ever played here. I loved going all in on the curse and letting the ancestors decide how my character plays every turn. My big hope was that remaster would keep everything that was so incredibly cool and unique about ancestors oracle and its playstyle while making the passive benefits stronger.

From what it looks like the exact opposite happened - all the flavorful ancestor mechanics are gone, and ancestor will now play very similar to other oracles and divine sorcs, while still being not all that good due to getting one of more punishing curses.

While legacy ancestors oracle wasn't perfectly designed, it did an amazing job at making me actually feel like my character is possessed by their ancestors. Mechanics and flavor worked perfectly together. I don't care that the mystery is probably stronger on average now, having as many slots as a sorcerer and becoming clumsy after using a strong spell like ability has just nothing to do with what made ancestors oracle appealing to me in any way.

The old "roll 1d4 and see what you're this round" still exists but as a cursebound feat.

So, if you liked that flavour, you can still do it.

It's just that objectively it was bad to leave it as a chance what to do each round, so I don't think many will be picking said feat.

The cursebound feat meddling futures is absolutely terrible (especially compared to other powerful cursebound feats) and even more punishing and less rewarding than the ancestors curse was, and you have to use it every turn if you want that flavorful mechanic instead of it just being an always on thing that gives you passive benefits, which is extremely restricting and makes the class way more repetitive. My previous ancestors oracle also used a bow to strike when possesed by a warrior ancestor, and becoming clumsier ever round completely...

I know it's bad, I even said so in the post you're quoating.

But it's not like it was good before.

The "flavor" part is unchainged though, that's why I said that if you just wanted it for flavor, it's there (but you should probably skip it for the other, actually strong, cursebound feats).

Scarab Sages

SuperBidi wrote:
YuriP wrote:
That's probably not what will happen.
If my memory serves me well, PFS1 never removed the pre Unchained classes, with the exception of the Summoner who got massively nerfed. So I don't see what the point would be to force a new chassis if you don't like it, especially when the class has been buffed.

The way things worked for PC1 was that you could keep your existing chassis, but you don’t get to rebuild. So a Wizard could stay a preremaster Wizard, but didn’t get to rebuild anything else. Specific spells or feats that were updated had to use the new text, but if the name was changed, you could keep the old version.

EDIT: They separately errata’s the old spells to change the damage and remove the attribute bonus. So while a Wizard can still use Ray of Frost, its damage did change.

Translating that to Oracle, you could remain a Battle Mystery Oracle. You would still get your Mystery Benefit and your Curse would still work the same, since those are part of the chassis. If you have any Oracle feats that were changed, you would have to use the new version.
I don’t know what it means for Call to Arms if that has the same name in the remaster.


Ferious Thune wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
YuriP wrote:
That's probably not what will happen.
If my memory serves me well, PFS1 never removed the pre Unchained classes, with the exception of the Summoner who got massively nerfed. So I don't see what the point would be to force a new chassis if you don't like it, especially when the class has been buffed.

The way things worked for PC1 was that you could keep your existing chassis, but you don’t get to rebuild. So a Wizard could stay a preremaster Wizard, but didn’t get to rebuild anything else. Specific spells or feats that were updated had to use the new text, but if the name was changed, you could keep the old version.

EDIT: They separately errata’s the old spells to change the damage and remove the attribute bonus. So while a Wizard can still use Ray of Frost, its damage did change.

Translating that to Oracle, you could remain a Battle Mystery Oracle. You would still get your Mystery Benefit and your Curse would still work the same, since those are part of the chassis. If you have any Oracle feats that were changed, you would have to use the new version.
I don’t know what it means for Call to Arms if that has the same name in the remaster.

The problem with that policy is many of the APG Oracle feats were printed under the same name with the new cursebound mechanics, which would be incompatible with the old chassis.


4 Spell slots = nice

Some of the feats also sound nice. RIP to Battle & Ancestors Mystery though. And in general, I feel like Oracle lost A LOT Of flavour all around. Very generic with boring curses for most cases right now.

And what do you guys think of the new Life Oracle? Currently playing a Life Oracle as the party's main healer / support, and those remastered changes sound... bad. Sure, it may be a buff on the long run - but no more extra HP? A cantrip that only works against undead / void healing targets? No more D12s for heals? I admit the new feat heals sound cool, but overall I feel like the flavour for Life Oracle got substantially nerfed.

Scarab Sages

Captain Morgan wrote:
The problem with that policy is many of the APG Oracle feats were printed under the same name with the new cursebound mechanics, which would be incompatible with the old chassis.

Yeah, they’ll probably have to add something specific for those situations, like they did for Wizard and Spell Schools. This is a bigger change than that, for sure. But I don’t think they are going to rule that for Oracle only you can’t keep playing your existing character.

I don’t know if I was clear in my post that all future characters need to be built on the new chassis. So it’s just a question of figuring out how to handle existing characters. They’ve seemed pretty committed to not requiring you to update if you don’t want to, so I’m confident they’ll figure something out.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
The problem with that policy is many of the APG Oracle feats were printed under the same name with the new cursebound mechanics, which would be incompatible with the old chassis.

The new Cursebound mechanics can be use as is with the old Cursebound mechanics. There are still 4 stages of curse. So that'll be easy to indicate.


SuperBidi wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
The problem with that policy is many of the APG Oracle feats were printed under the same name with the new cursebound mechanics, which would be incompatible with the old chassis.
The new Cursebound mechanics can be use as is with the old Cursebound mechanics. There are still 4 stages of curse. So that'll be easy to indicate.

That's a very interesting point.

Liberty's Edge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm not a fan of "curses are purely negative" either. Like this probably makes the class easier to understand, but it was fun when there was a push-pull within the curse.

Like Cassandra's curse was not that people would not believe her, it was that she could also actually see the future.

Seeing the future was a divine gift given to Cassandra.

And then she made the god angry and he cursed her that no one would believe her.

Radiant Oath

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm not a fan of "curses are purely negative" either. Like this probably makes the class easier to understand, but it was fun when there was a push-pull within the curse.

Like Cassandra's curse was not that people would not believe her, it was that she could also actually see the future.

Seeing the future was a divine gift given to Cassandra.

And then she made the god angry and he cursed her that no one would believe her.

Right, same with Tiresias (depending on which version of his/her story you read).


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
The problem with that policy is many of the APG Oracle feats were printed under the same name with the new cursebound mechanics, which would be incompatible with the old chassis.
The new Cursebound mechanics can be use as is with the old Cursebound mechanics. There are still 4 stages of curse. So that'll be easy to indicate.

Honestly, the old Ancestors Oracle combined with the new Cursebound Feats would be so fun. I really wish they had just kept the old mysteries and paired them with the new cursebound feat mechanics.


I've been playing an Oracle of Lore in PFS and I love getting to the point in the curse where he starts getting automatic knowledge checks every turn. When I can't get any more info on the creatures, I just start asking the GM about other random items in the room.

Do I understand correctly, that in PFS we will be forced to use the new mystery/curse rules because it is a character option that has the same name but new rules?

Scarab Sages

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I would wait for the information from PFS leadership. If it follows the pattern of other classes, you don’t have to update your class chassis, and the curse should be part of the class chassis. If there is a feat or a spell that has the same name, then you would need to use the new feat or spell. But things that are part of the class chassis only have to be used if you rebuild the character with the free remaster rebuild.

The changes to cursebound might require more specific rulings, but we don’t know what those are yet.

Grand Lodge

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We do now!


TriOmegaZero wrote:
We do now!

And it's awful...

RIP my Oracles.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
We do now!

Hm, "the magus class has not yet been remastered." Makes you wonder if a Player Core 3 will be somewhen in the future after all.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
We do now!

At least Time and Ashes are still available for the legacy oracle.

Scarab Sages

SuperBidi wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
We do now!

And it's awful...

RIP my Oracles.

Well, never mind, then. Sorry.

Liberty's Edge

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magnuskn wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
We do now!
Hm, "the magus class has not yet been remastered." Makes you wonder if a Player Core 3 will be somewhen in the future after all.

Don't read too much in it.

It is in red, meaning it was changed after PC2 came out. Likely in place of the class that was mentioned there originally (when we only had PC1) and that was Remastered in PC2 (maybe Sorcerer).

Also they are pretty clear that, with PC2, Core is complete for them and that they do not plan to add any other book to it.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
We do now!

Let it be known that anytime something like this happens again, that people saying "you can just use the original content" should be disregarded because clearly some people won't be able to do this. This exact situation happened when the new ability score option was added and the original Voluntary Flaws option was completely removed.

Verdant Wheel

I mean.

I got an Ancestors Oracle I leveled to 7th, built to suffer through the pain points.

Just rebuilt that character today, and looking forward to playing my Remastered Oracle, albeit with some changed mechanics, but capable of delivering on the same fantasy.

I'm cool with Paizo toning down some of the more broke-ish elements of their game without punishing players for dabbling in those corners.

Am I missing that the rebuild isn't free!?

=)

Scarab Sages

As long as you played 1 game with the character before November 15th, 2023 (or maybe 14th), then the rebuild is free for PFS. We’re being told if you made the character after that, you have to use the rebuild boon.

Re: Voluntary Flaws, PFS kept those, unless things changed again with the remaster, which is possible.

But, yes, I’ve learned my lesson about being optimistic when changes are coming.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It seems kind of odd to both refuse to grandfather a character in but also force them to pay for the rebuild if they were made in the last eight months. Is that normal?

That seems strikingly dumb. Especially since it sounds like an oracle that doesn't rebuild has their character somewhat sabotaged by the changes.

Shadow Lodge

It sounds like rebuilt Oracles also get sabotaged.

Verdant Wheel

Anyone can share if there are major changes to Eject Soul or Withering Grasp?

(I saw these domains with asterisks in the video...)

=)


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rainzax wrote:

Anyone can share if there are major changes to Eject Soul or Withering Grasp?

(I saw these domains with asterisks in the video...)

=)

All the domains with asterisks are the ones that will be reprinted in Lost Omens: Divine Mysteries, so it seems we'll have to wait to see all their changes.

Liberty's Edge

Squiggit wrote:

It seems kind of odd to both refuse to grandfather a character in but also force them to pay for the rebuild if they were made in the last eight months. Is that normal?

That seems strikingly dumb. Especially since it sounds like an oracle that doesn't rebuild has their character somewhat sabotaged by the changes.

IIRC the rules about the free rebuild were extremely clear from the start.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

It seems kind of odd to both refuse to grandfather a character in but also force them to pay for the rebuild if they were made in the last eight months. Is that normal?

That seems strikingly dumb. Especially since it sounds like an oracle that doesn't rebuild has their character somewhat sabotaged by the changes.

IIRC the rules about the free rebuild were extremely clear from the start.

Yeah I gather that. It's still a pretty bad decision.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

It seems kind of odd to both refuse to grandfather a character in but also force them to pay for the rebuild if they were made in the last eight months. Is that normal?

That seems strikingly dumb. Especially since it sounds like an oracle that doesn't rebuild has their character somewhat sabotaged by the changes.

IIRC the rules about the free rebuild were extremely clear from the start.

For certain definitions of "clear" that require you to be either hanging out here or fairly deep into the PFS rules to know it. It's not even remotely obvious to a newer or more casual PFS player that Paizo would alter things this fundamentally and then say "you have to use the new mystery/curse but you also don't get to rebuild the rest of your stuff to work around it."

My experience at con games around here is that PFS communication is not nearly as clear as people used to dealing with it might think it is. And even if you DID know about this, I don't think anyone expected the subclasses would be forcibly pushed onto the new rules as AFAIK that isn't how other classes were treated if the character already existed.

Scarab Sages

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It was not entirely clear to me, either. What was clear was that you couldn’t rebuild using the options from Player Core 1, and then rebuild again once PC2 came out. So if you wanted to see those options, then you needed to wait.

The language is that there wouldn’t be a second rebuild of this type. That doesn’t preclude providing a rebuild specific to the PC2 classes, or at least to the Alchemists and Oracles who don’t function anymore, given the ruling that, particularly for Oracles, they have to use some of the new options.

Another solution would be to just let Alchemists and Oracles function like they have been pre-remaster. A special accommodation was made for Wizards that don’t rebuild to allow Spell Schools to still work. Something could be done for Oracles as well. Then there doesn’t need to be another rebuild granted.

Doing either of those things doesn’t cost Paizo anything. The current ruling does, in the form of a lot of animosity from the players affected.


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It's a bit wild how they made Divine Access even more finnicky to use. It already required going through dozens of deities to find the right combination of granted spells. But now a significant portion of those deities will grant spells you already got from your mystery. (Deities with the fire domain tend to grant fireball, go figure.) Battle really feels the pain here too because so many war deities grant sure strike, including a few that grant the linchpin of any gish, haste.

Foundry got it's Player Core 2 update, so I've done a rebuild of my battle oracle. I found a flames mystery build I'm pretty happy with, but it uses ancestry + champion feats to get all its battle stuff. I didn't take champion before because the armor was redundant. I moved him into a half orc so I would have some more feat options to reclaim lost abilities. (My GM is much more generous than PFS with rebuilds, evidently.) Maybe I'll try a fighter instead of a champion, see how that feels.

I'd like to make battle work, but it has several black eyes for me. I'm salty about losing Call to Arms. Oracular Warning doesn't scale with level but cursebound value, and you never want to be going into a fight with your curse running high. Starting the fight with one of your limited cursebound actions already spent is rough when you could be using it for Debilitating Dichotomy, Vision of Weakness, or Foretell Harm. All the focus spells are bad. Weapon Trance is garbo. Battlefield Persistence feels worse than amped guidance, which you trigger only when it matters and works on all your allies instead of you. Greater looks good on paper until you realize you're spending an action and a focus point to get reactive strike when you could have taken a reactive strike feat from multiclassing at that level. I am leery of the second reaction and temp HP offsetting spending an action in the first place, especially on a build with such tight action economy. Feels hard to know how good it will be in practice. It at least offers a nice anticaster tech for when you don't want your curse value going up.

Gifted Power is really winning me over. I first thought of it the same as those sorcerer feats that you cast heal or summons in an extra top level slot. But then I realized you can use it for six different spells, almost like making them all signature. But it also adds to the pressure of Divine Access to pick spells which heighten. Flames gets a pretty solid set of options, but Battle struggles here. Although Battle has a LOT of gods to choose from now. I'm thinking Hei Fei to get chain lightning for DPS and Hyrdaulic Push for cliffs.


I went and updated an old Tempest Oracle build only to find out they removed the +electric on water/air spells, so now I have zero incentive to take any of those spells at all. Now my spelllist is back to all the standard cleric standouts, except I have electric arc and thunderstrike (heightened) as well I suppose. While it was challenging getting those spells onto my oracle, it felt worth it. Now it's just kinda ehhhh. Really wish they'd started the cursebound premise with copying the mystery benefits and making it unique to them, because I have a generically powerful but still generic as hell ability now.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
Foundry got it's Player Core 2 update, so I've done a rebuild of my battle oracle. I found a flames mystery build I'm pretty happy with, but it uses ancestry + champion feats to get all its battle stuff. I didn't take champion before because the armor was redundant. I moved him into a half orc so I would have some more feat options to reclaim lost abilities. (My GM is much more generous than PFS with rebuilds, evidently.) Maybe I'll try a fighter instead of a champion, see how that feels.

I'd be curious to see what it looks like when you've got it hammered out. I was initially thinking of converting my Ashes Oracle to a Champion with an Oracle dedication instead (my GM is granting us Free Archetype and Ancestral Paragon), but I'm wondering if I can still work with the Oracle chassis for an acceptably tanky Flame Oracle who can use swords, especially since the Chalice of Justice (the ORC's Remastered Holy Avenger) doesn't require you to be a Champion to use its special powers, just Holy!


After a more thorough lookover remaster Oracle now shares the dubious position with Wizard that you factually cannot do the same thing as premaster. Even with the Alchemist you still can make all the same things, you just might not have enough. But with Oracle entire chunks of the subclasses have flat out gone missing, which, like, what the heck?

Life, Battle, Lore and Tempest stands out the most that the devs couldn't find it in themselves to put their core combat loop into the class. Just kill those poor mysteries already. Did someone have a bad day, remaster the Flames, COsmos and Ancestor (lol) curses first then decided to take a loooong day off, realise they never wrote feats for the other mysteries, and generalised whatever feats they wrote instead?


Oracle looks like the new worst class in the game. It was a niche class prior you played if you had some idea with it, now it looks mostly unplayable and not worth the headache. The Cursebound feats don't look good enough to suffer the penalties. It should have been play-tested with this many changes as I'm pretty sure the badness would have been caught. Now it is released in remaster from and I'd just let the old oracles players play the old version.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Deriven Firelion wrote:
Oracle looks like the new worst class in the game.

Nope, still the Investigator by a mile.

Most of the core issues with the new Oracle are thematic. Even at its worst it's a 4 slot divine spontaneous caster with a decent chassis and good access to off-list spells.

Yeah, some of the cursebound feats aren't great, but if you can't find one you like you can entirely opt out of the mechanic with basically no downside. Though IMO that's another thematic red flag when there are good reasons to just entirely ignore a class' core mechanics.


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Squiggit wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
Oracle looks like the new worst class in the game.

Nope, still the Investigator by a mile.

Most of the core issues with the new Oracle are thematic. Even at its worst it's a 4 slot divine spontaneous caster with a decent chassis and good access to off-list spells.

Yeah, some of the cursebound feats aren't great, but if you can't find one you like you can entirely opt out of the mechanic with basically no downside. Though IMO that's another thematic red flag when there are good reasons to just entirely ignore a class' core mechanics.

Agreed. IMO, the oracle is looking MUCH better than it used to. I actually WANT to interact with its class features now. I can always inject a theme into my characters but mechanics are set and I'd much rather have these mechanics.

And, yeah, while Investigator is better than before, it's still fiddly and you have to have DM buy-in for a lot of its features so it's at the bottom for me.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
Oracle looks like the new worst class in the game. It was a niche class prior you played if you had some idea with it, now it looks mostly unplayable and not worth the headache. The Cursebound feats don't look good enough to suffer the penalties. It should have been play-tested with this many changes as I'm pretty sure the badness would have been caught. Now it is released in remaster from and I'd just let the old oracles players play the old version.

Nah. Oracle is extremely playable on the right mysteries. Certain ones are just awful and others are fine. Cosmos and Flames (after the first couple of levels) have very minimal penalties for using Cursebound stuff especially, and thats an extra pool of resource for some pretty handy effects. It's also a 4 slot divine caster.

I'm really disappointed in the remaster version's issues and especially its gutting of the mechanical uniqueness and flavor of the mysteries, though. Certain things you could do are just busted now, like it makes no sense whatsoever to even attempt to make a battle Oracle, a Cosmos Oracle investing in things like Nudge the Scales is probably a better healer than a Life Oracle since you can keep yourself alive too, and actually using your unique class abilities is a deathwish with Ancestors.

But it's still playable, and should be pretty good on some of the mysteries.

It's also a great archetype now. Sorcerer with Oracle for Foretell Harm is going to pack a real punch, and a lot of builds can benefit from things like Nudge the Scales because it's great action economy ranged healing that costs them very little. Course that doesn't say much for the class itself, I suppose.

(As for Investigator, maybe I'm one of the more permissive GMs on it but I've had multiple players use it and they've felt it was okay, though they really appreciate the improved range of options around Pursue a Lead. IMO Inventor is the worst class in the game.)


How good is the cursebound stuff? It didn't look too good to me.

Grand Archive

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It's pretty good. A good amount of them were previously focus spells with the same effects so oracles basically have 2 pools of focus powers if you choose to take the cursebound feats. Your cursebound value is an additional resource to use these effects. The turn randomiser is the only bad one really.


Maybe I have to read it closer. I parsed over the classes. Barb obviously looks better. Swashbuckler is better. Investigator better. Oracle not sure about. Sorc is maybe a wash, but maybe a little better. Champion is about the same, but maybe a little better as their aura widens things out a bit.


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Oracle became a stronger but more generic caster. Many of their best focus spells are now cursebound feats, which to be fair is a unique resource pool. But they lost a lot of their interesting but controversial double edge mechanics which created really specific play styles. For people like Archpaladin Zousha, this will give them more flexibility in build concepts. But to me it just feels like we got another sorcerer and we have sorcerer in the same book already.


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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Foundry got it's Player Core 2 update, so I've done a rebuild of my battle oracle. I found a flames mystery build I'm pretty happy with, but it uses ancestry + champion feats to get all its battle stuff. I didn't take champion before because the armor was redundant. I moved him into a half orc so I would have some more feat options to reclaim lost abilities. (My GM is much more generous than PFS with rebuilds, evidently.) Maybe I'll try a fighter instead of a champion, see how that feels.
I'd be curious to see what it looks like when you've got it hammered out. I was initially thinking of converting my Ashes Oracle to a Champion with an Oracle dedication instead (my GM is granting us Free Archetype and Ancestral Paragon), but I'm wondering if I can still work with the Oracle chassis for an acceptably tanky Flame Oracle who can use swords, especially since the Chalice of Justice (the ORC's Remastered Holy Avenger) doesn't require you to be a Champion to use its special powers, just Holy!

You can make it work. It is much harder without free archetype, but that's true for anything which blends concepts. It is also much easier to do at high levels, but you can get weapon proficiency at first level and champion dedication at 2nd, or get both on a human.

Flames Oracle, Half Orc bandit

Ancestry feat:
1 Orc Weapon Familiarity
3 (Ancestral Paragon) Orc Ferocity
5 Natural Ambition - Whispers of Weakness
9 Multitalented, Psychic dedication. (Amped Guidance is objectively correct but I'm going to explore synergy with amped ignition and the greater revelation)

Class Feats:
2 Meddling Futures (probably bad in practice but I like it, could be replaced with fire ray through domain feat)
4 Bespell Strikes
6 Gifted Power
8 Debilitating Dichotomy
10 Basic Psychic spell casting (only if your allies are too cowardly to let you use Trial by Sky Fire)
11 Divine Access: Ragethiel for sure strike/haste
12 Greater Revelation

Archetype feats
2 Champion dedication, Grandeur cause
4 Healing touch
6 Champ reaction
8 Dragon Disciple Dedication (Crystal Dragon)
10 Basic Devotion: Brilliant Flash
12 Reaction Striker

Skill feats
BG Group Coercion
2 Assurance (Athletics)
4 Terrifying Resistance
6 Intimidating Prowess
8 Battle Cry
10 Shameless Request
12 Too Angry to Die

General
3 Ancestral Paragon (see above)
7 toughness
11 fleet


Man, making battle oracle work with divine access would have been so much easier if they either gave it haste or took away sure strike.

Grand Archive

Captain Morgan wrote:
Man, making battle oracle work with divine access would have been so much easier if they either gave it haste or took away sure strike.

Yeah, the granted spells definitely could have been more suited towards the suggested play style. Haste and maybe something like blink charge would have been better than telekinetic maneuver and weapon storm.

Edit: I could have sworn blink charge was just arcane. It's also legacy unfortunately. What other weapon oriented spells could have been chosen?


Powers128 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Man, making battle oracle work with divine access would have been so much easier if they either gave it haste or took away sure strike.

Yeah, the granted spells definitely could have been more suited towards the suggested play style. Haste and maybe something like blink charge would have been better than telekinetic maneuver and weapon storm.

Edit: I could have sworn blink charge was just arcane. It's also legacy unfortunately. What other weapon oriented spells could have been chosen?

Warding Aggression springs to mind.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
How good is the cursebound stuff? It didn't look too good to me.

Well, Nudge the Scales is a 2+2*Level 1 action heal at 30' range, which is great action economy for a ranged heal. Whisper of Weakness is just "you know its weaknesses, its worst save, and get a +2 to an attack/skill against it" with no failure chance, which is multiple recall knowledge checks worth info in one action that always works. Foretell Harm is extra damage as a free action, which if you can hit a weakness again with it is definitely nice (and under the PFS clarification hits all targets the original spell did so works with AoE). Debilitating Dichotomy is a blast that scales well and doesn't use your spell slots or focus spells.

There's some stinkers in there (Meddling Futures), some meh stuff, and one that will make your GM hate you (4 on Roll the Bones of Fate), but there's plenty to like in the Cursebound stuff. Combine it with the focus spells AND being a 4 slot caster with some non-Divine spell access available, and the class is definitely usable.

The bigger issue with it is that the curses are so wildly imbalanced that there's ones you want to use Cursebound stuff as sparingly as possible (Ancestors) and others where you can just spam it with basically no consequence (Cosmos). Combine that with some of the old builds that people made being unplayable now and the general loss of the flavor and themes that used to be there, and the total package is a letdown, especially if you liked the class before. But in terms of "can I build one that will be effective?" Yes, absolutely.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Man, making battle oracle work with divine access would have been so much easier if they either gave it haste or took away sure strike.

Isn't it better to do it as Ancestor mystery? At least your revelation spells are useful then. Of course then your curse sucks. Flames?

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