Report for Battlecry! Playtest Duty

The playtest ends on the Friday of Origins Game Fair. Is there any chance to extend it to the end of the weekend?

(GASP) ARE WE FINALLY GETTING A DHAMPIR ICONIC? :D

If so, I hope she's not in the armies of Geb.

Wait... Wayne Reynolds didn't do the art for the Iconics of Commander and Guardian?

This is a first, he has always done the artwork for every Pathfinder iconic.

I do like the character designs and can't wait to read more about them later.

Wait... Wayne Reynolds didn't do the art for the Iconics of Commander and Guardian?

This is a first, he has always done the artwork for every Pathfinder iconic.

I do like the character designs and can't wait to read more about them later.

They mentioned the Playtest is ahead of the art for this because they moved it up since the Starfinder team has the massive playtest at GenCon. The art is probably just not ready to be shown.

Yeah the Wayne Reynolds art is probably still cooking, both of these pieces and the ones from PDFs are from older books

[EDIT] other posts while I was typing answered my question about the iconics.
Looking through the playtest, is it weird that my first thought for a Commander isn't a knightly battle tactician, but a cackling, order-barking pirate captain waving a jolly roger? Either way love a lot of the mechanics.
Guardian's stats are all over the place; faster armor progression than the Champ, slower weapon progression than other martials. Lot of focus on reactions. I do want to play this one, just to see how it feels at the table. Kinda picturing a samurai just DETERMINED to self-sacrifice (second level feat lets you parry with a katana!)
Love the broadening martial options, especially heavy armor prof.

Incredibly glad this playtest is running longer than a month!

Does the term 'squadmate' include animal companions? The definition given would seem to imply not. Eidolons can benfit as they're intelligent and can participate in your 'briefing', but animal companions can't 'prepare tactics', being non-intelligent....

As it currently stands, animal companions would probably be a poor fit for squadmates anyways seeing as how they don't get reactions.(if I am remembering correctly)

Animal Companions don't get reactions unless they get a specific ability that provides or gives them a reaction. A general ability to use a reaction is not enough. However an ability that grants an extra reaction is enough.

So Drilled Reactions would work on an Animal Companion. However there is a limit to the number of squadmates you can have. There is no intelligence requirement and animals are smart enough to learn sequences anyway.

A harsh GM might try to rule a particular combat maneuver is too difficult for an animal to practice, but they are making up rules to do so.

Animal Companions don't get reactions unless they get a specific ability that provides or gives them a reaction. A general ability to use a reaction is not enough. However an ability that grants an extra reaction is enough.

So Drilled Reactions would work on an Animal Companion. However there is a limit to the number of squadmates you can have. There is no intelligence requirement and animals are smart enough to learn sequences anyway.

A harsh GM might try to rule a particular combat maneuver is too difficult for an animal to practice, but they are making up rules to do so.

I'm a little iffy on Drilled Reactions being able to give an "extra" reaction to a creature that doesn't have one, but even if it does, you're probably still limited to using it on your own companion as a Commander. A minion can't act when it's not its controller's turn, listed in addition to the "no reaction" restriction. All the familiar abilities are restricted to aiding you on your actions.

A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn, doesn't have reactions, and can't act when it's not your turn.

But that's the sort of thing where it'd be nice to bring it up in playtest so it can be made more clear one way or the other in the final version.

Guardian is not how I imagine how the class will go. I imagine a D12 CON Class that is so tanky that you can face tank a troll hit and laugh it off. not a "KEY ATTRIBUTE Strength" class that is 90% down all the time, at that point, why are playing as a bootleg champion when you could be playing an actual champion?.

like bro.

Wouldn't say no to 12HP on the guardian. It feels fitting for a class who is explicitly about getting hit, though I'll also need to see how their resistances work in practice first.
They kind of operate like barbarians on that axis, just trading out extra HP for higher AC.

I'm a little iffy on Drilled Reactions being able to give an "extra" reaction to a creature that doesn't have one

The word "extra" has no special meaning. Delete it.

but even if it does, you're probably still limited to using it on your own companion as a Commander.

You have to have trained with the minion that is all, so most companions are going to be fine as long as you can organise the time to train. Really all that is out from this criteria are summoned minions.

A minion can't act when it's not its controller's turn, listed in addition to the "no reaction" restriction. ...

Quote:

A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn, doesn't have reactions, and can't act when it's not your turn.

Yes here you have a real point. But as it turns out it is a bug in AON. page 301 of Player Core has updated text.

Gortle wrote:

Animal Companions don't get reactions unless they get a specific ability that provides or gives them a reaction. A general ability to use a reaction is not enough. However an ability that grants an extra reaction is enough.

So Drilled Reactions would work on an Animal Companion. However there is a limit to the number of squadmates you can have. There is no intelligence requirement and animals are smart enough to learn sequences anyway.

A harsh GM might try to rule a particular combat maneuver is too difficult for an animal to practice, but they are making up rules to do so.

I'm a little iffy on Drilled Reactions being able to give an "extra" reaction to a creature that doesn't have one, but even if it does, you're probably still limited to using it on your own companion as a Commander. A minion can't act when it's not its controller's turn, listed in addition to the "no reaction" restriction. All the familiar abilities are restricted to aiding you on your actions.

Quote:

A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn, doesn't have reactions, and can't act when it's not your turn.

But that's the sort of thing where it'd be nice to bring it up in playtest so it can be made more clear one way or the other in the final version.

The text on AoN is outdated. That's the Core Rulebook text.,. The Player Core definition of the Minion trait is different, and actually says "they gain 0 reactions", and doesn't mention that they can't act outside your turn anymore.

BTW, I have reported the error to AoN, so that will probably be fixed on next update.

Meanwhile, you can find the new Minion trait text here: Look at the "Other Spell Traits" box in there... Yes, that sidebar being there doesn't make sense, and yes, I already reported it. xD

A minion has only 2 actions and 0 reactions per turn, though certain conditions (such as slowed or quickened) or abilities might give them a reaction that they can use. Alterations to a minion's actions occur when they gain their actions for the round. A minion can't control other creatures.

QuidEst wrote:

Gortle wrote:

Animal Companions don't get reactions unless they get a specific ability that provides or gives them a reaction. A general ability to use a reaction is not enough. However an ability that grants an extra reaction is enough.

So Drilled Reactions would work on an Animal Companion. However there is a limit to the number of squadmates you can have. There is no intelligence requirement and animals are smart enough to learn sequences anyway.

A harsh GM might try to rule a particular combat maneuver is too difficult for an animal to practice, but they are making up rules to do so.

I'm a little iffy on Drilled Reactions being able to give an "extra" reaction to a creature that doesn't have one, but even if it does, you're probably still limited to using it on your own companion as a Commander. A minion can't act when it's not its controller's turn, listed in addition to the "no reaction" restriction. All the familiar abilities are restricted to aiding you on your actions.

Quote:

A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn, doesn't have reactions, and can't act when it's not your turn.

But that's the sort of thing where it'd be nice to bring it up in playtest so it can be made more clear one way or the other in the final version.

The text on AoN is outdated. That's the Core Rulebook text.,. The Player Core definition of the Minin trait is different, and actually says "They gain 0 reactions", and doesn't mention that they can't act outside your turn anymore.

BTW, I have reported the error to AoN, so that will probably be fixed on next update.

Thanks. I'll update my reply.

Is a tactician considered to be a squadmate for the purpose of his own tactics?

Have the rules for testing in Organized Play been published yet? I don't see it in the guide and I have interested players wanting to try these classes out. I'm especially interested in how we would test characters higher than level 1.

Is a tactician considered to be a squadmate for the purpose of his own tactics?

No, All tactics that the Commander can use themself mention "You and your Squadmates" or "You and X of your Squadmate". And Squadmates are defined as allies you choose during preparation, and we all know that nobody is their own ally.

Have the rules for testing in Organized Play been published yet? I don't see it in the guide and I have interested players wanting to try these classes out. I'm especially interested in how we would test characters higher than level 1.

Rules for playtesting in Organized Play have been out for a while. The Org Play rules for Playtesting can be found here.

The text on AoN is outdated. That's the Core Rulebook text.,. The Player Core definition of the Minion trait is different, and actually says "they gain 0 reactions", and doesn't mention that they can't act outside your turn anymore.

BTW, I have reported the error to AoN, so that will probably be fixed on next update.

Meanwhile, you can find the new Minion trait text here: Look at the "Other Spell Traits" box in there... Yes, that sidebar being there doesn't make sense, and yes, I already reported it. xD

Minion Trait definition in Other Spell Traits in Player Core page 301 wrote:

A minion has only 2 actions and 0 reactions per turn, though certain conditions (such as slowed or quickened) or abilities might give them a reaction that they can use. Alterations to a minion's actions occur when they gain their actions for the round. A minion can't control other creatures.

Awesome, thanks! Glad to be corrected on that. It also very conveniently addresses the "extra" issue, since they explicitly get 0 reactions. Love to see the Remaster heading off these issues in advance with clean, intentional writing benefiting from hindsight!

Guardian is not how I imagine how the class will go. I imagine a D12 CON Class that is so tanky that you can face tank a troll hit and laugh it off. not a "KEY ATTRIBUTE Strength" class that is 90% down all the time, at that point, why are playing as a bootleg champion when you could be playing an actual champion?.

like bro.

On one hand if the guardian is the last man standing then they have already failed in their job.

They very much remind me of the classes from The Tome of Battle.

Guardian is not how I imagine how the class will go. I imagine a D12 CON Class that is so tanky that you can face tank a troll hit and laugh it off. not a "KEY ATTRIBUTE Strength" class that is 90% down all the time, at that point, why are playing as a bootleg champion when you could be playing an actual champion?.

like bro.

I haven't seen anything on the remastered Champion. But my guess is they shaped the Guardian with some insight on how the Champion might change with the remaster. Overlap with how they both use reactions could be a concern, though.

Guardian is very interesting, but I'm curious, wouldn't you be able to facilitate most of what this class wants to do by creating a champion class archetype that provides the taunt ability?

Love how both of these classes are set up.

I find their mechanics are simple but subtle - how a Commander and a Defender use their class features to create incentives in either their allies' actions or those of their enemies is what is difficult to see at a topical glance.

Well done, design.

I have questions about what role the Guardian is supposed to fit, since it seems to hit a similar role to the Champion. Reading over the class, the major appeal of the class is the ability to gain the critical specialization at 1st level… which might be overpowered. Most of the feats and abilities of the class would be right at home with the Fighter or Champion.

I will be giving this one a play test this coming weekend and see what I think about it after some practical application.

mrkillwolf666 wrote:

Guardian is not how I imagine how the class will go. I imagine a D12 CON Class that is so tanky that you can face tank a troll hit and laugh it off. not a "KEY ATTRIBUTE Strength" class that is 90% down all the time, at that point, why are playing as a bootleg champion when you could be playing an actual champion?.

like bro.

On one hand if the guardian is the last man standing then they have already failed in their job.

On the other hand if they go down quickly then they also can't do much guarding.
Perhaps they could place their taunt debuff on the enemy that kills them as a reaction when they go down?
Or maybe a weaker version of Tough Cookie should just be a base class feature.

I guess so but when I think of a "Guardian", I think of a Wall of Iron that forces enemy to hit them, debuff them like hell, jumping to your team mate to save them from an attack. not "ARMOR BREAK" feat that break my armor which make no sense, why do I want to do?.

I just want an D12 "KEY ATTRIBUTE: CON" class that is expert in all armor at level 1, have feats to help my team, help me to heal off DMG, remove debuffs and/or put them onto bad guys, make my armor act like it's has thorns on it. that how I imagine (in my eyes) how a Guardian should be, a pure support classes that is there to keep you save... not what ever is going on in the playtest for the Guardian.

the playtest Guardian just make me sad and angry, so many questions of just "why?"

mrkillwolf666 wrote:

Guardian is not how I imagine how the class will go. I imagine a D12 CON Class that is so tanky that you can face tank a troll hit and laugh it off. not a "KEY ATTRIBUTE Strength" class that is 90% down all the time, at that point, why are playing as a bootleg champion when you could be playing an actual champion?.

like bro.

I haven't seen anything on the remastered Champion. But my guess is they shaped the Guardian with some insight on how the Champion might change with the remaster. Overlap with how they both use reactions could be a concern, though.

true

Wouldn't say no to 12HP on the guardian. It feels fitting for a class who is explicitly about getting hit, though I'll also need to see how their resistances work in practice first.

They kind of operate like barbarians on that axis, just trading out extra HP for higher AC.

that could be nice but as far I seen/read on the playtest Guardian, I don't like it.

I'm really hoping that this book gives a new feat; Combat Reflexes - You gain 1 additional reaction each turn. Or something like that. I have several characters that would benefit greatly from that. In 1E you got additional Attacks of Opportunity equal to your Dex mod. I'm just hoping for 1. Or 1 for each time you take the feat. Or there could be multiple levels of it at higher levels, and you can only take each level once.

I realize that these mechanics are supposed to represent things a person can do in a short amount of time. But I do medieval fighting re-enactments and I've seen some very quick individuals be able to take advantage of a lot of split-second opportunities. I myself have deflected or intercepted multiple attacks aimed at my shield-mates, or others behind me.

Anyway, that's my 3 coppers.

I have questions about what role the Guardian is supposed to fit, since it seems to hit a similar role to the Champion. Reading over the class, the major appeal of the class is the ability to gain the critical specialization at 1st level… which might be overpowered. Most of the feats and abilities of the class would be right at home with the Fighter or Champion.

I will be giving this one a play test this coming weekend and see what I think about it after some practical application.

I believe you meant Armor Specialization, not Critical Specialization. Armor Specialization at 1st level seems like it doesn't do too much, as it is very hard to afford the Heavy armors at 1st level with the standard 15 gp you receive at the start of the game. This means you get resistance 1 to one type of physical damage, or 4 resistance against a critical hit.

Additionally, resistances don't stack, as the playtest PDF reminds you, so the 1 resistance damage for Composite/Leather/Plate armors don't stack with your Intercept Strike. Composite only activates on a Critical Hit,so it will grant only 1 more resistance to damage against the hit than Intercept Strike would have.

I think the Armor Specialization is there to help the Guardian hold onto small amounts of HP when damaged normally, so you might be able to take one more Strike than a Fighter could over the course of an encounter.

Where is the dedicated forum for posting about the playtest?
I had a short Quest in PFS as a level 3 Commander and it was so much fun, I want to document my observations.

Where is the dedicated forum for posting about the playtest?

I had a short Quest in PFS as a level 3 Commander and it was so much fun, I want to document my observations.

Here the Battlecry! playtest forum section!

Cool to see the iconic Stalwart Defender prestige class get his own full class after all these years.

Additionally, resistances don't stack, as the playtest PDF reminds you, so the 1 resistance damage for Composite/Leather/Plate armors don't stack with your Intercept Strike. Composite only activates on a Critical Hit,so it will grant only 1 more resistance to damage against the hit than Intercept Strike would have.

Apologies, I meant to say Chain activates on a Critical Hit, not Composite.

Aspel wrote:

Where is the dedicated forum for posting about the playtest?

I had a short Quest in PFS as a level 3 Commander and it was so much fun, I want to document my observations.

Here the Battlecry! playtest forum section!

I’m hoping their might be subforums specifically dedicated to Playtest sessions to provide feedback from actual play…

Elfteiroh wrote:

Aspel wrote:

Where is the dedicated forum for posting about the playtest?

I had a short Quest in PFS as a level 3 Commander and it was so much fun, I want to document my observations.

Here the Battlecry! playtest forum section!

I’m hoping their might be subforums specifically dedicated to Playtest sessions to provide feedback from actual play…

There haven't been in the past. Mostly what folks do is start a special thread for their particular playtest experiences if they want to give more detailed feedback and then make sure the title of the thread is very clear so it's easier to find and doesn't get cluttered with other discussions.

I'm confused as to the comparisons between the Champion and Guardian being so similar. It's true that they're both tanky, but to me they seem to be tanky in different ways. The Champion uses reactions to give allies resistance to damage they are dealt, while either striking or debuffing the attacking enemy, or letting their ally move. They do get similar shield feats with the Guardian, so there's that. I don't remember if Paladin's Sacrifice or some variant of it exists in PF 2 but I guess that would be similar to what the Guardian does, though limited by the same focus pool you need for Lay On Hands and any other focus spell you might use.
The Guardian, meanwhile, is primarily focused on re-directing attacks to themself. The Taunt incentivises enemies to attack the Guardian, and if I'm remembering correctly it also penalizes them when attacking allies if you succeed at your role. The shield feats are similar to Champion but that's it. Honestly to me both the Commander and the Guardian feel like re-toolings of different aspects of the first edition Cavalier, The Commander is the Banner and Tactics features, although with a better mechanic than teamwork feats. The Guardian is the old Cavalier's Challenge mechanic. I'm glad that both are being playtested because I think they'll be better for it, but I really don't see how Guardian is so similar to Champion.

I guess so but when I think of a "Guardian", I think of a Wall of Iron that forces enemy to hit them, debuff them like hell, jumping to your team mate to save them from an attack. not "ARMOR BREAK" feat that break my armor which make no sense, why do I want to do?.

I just want an D12 "KEY ATTRIBUTE: CON" class that is expert in all armor at level 1, have feats to help my team, help me to heal off DMG, remove debuffs and/or put them onto bad guys, make my armor act like it's has thorns on it. that how I imagine (in my eyes) how a Guardian should be, a pure support classes that is there to keep you save... not what ever is going on in the playtest for the Guardian.

the playtest Guardian just make me sad and angry, so many questions of just "why?"

I agree with all of these points.

I played a Guardian today in a Pathfinder Society scenario. In the only combat, my character would have dropped in the first round if not for Orc Ferocity. I used a reaction to Intercept Strike from the enemy for the squishy witch, taking half of my HP before I even had a chance to act. Then, I drew my weapon, stepped into combat, and used Taunt. The creature focused all of his attacks on me (which IS the role of this class!), but would have dropped me if not for Orc Ferocity. I never got a chance to Raise Shield, so no Shield Block reaction.

The Taunt ability makes an enemy focus on you... but that +2 means an increased chance in critical hits, something the Guardian just doesn't have the hit points to absorb. And Armor Critical Specialization barely came into play; at 1st level, I could afford a chainmail shirt and shield at best (not that the shield did me much good). The ACS for chain only reduces damage from CRITICAL HITS, meaning it didn't do much for the two of three attacks that hit me. And Mitigate Harm barely helped, feeling too weak at this level to be effective.

As for suggestions, I would make the following:

1) Make this a CON-based class. It needs HP to be effective in the role it is supposed to fill. It isn't much of an attacker, and will fall behind the Fighter soon enough (which I am okay with). Focusing on CON means a more robust HP pool and Fortitude save.

2) Raise the HP. A viable argument can be made that this class needs HP more than any other. Raising the HP to 12 wouldn't make this class unstoppable; it will (likely) be taking a LOT of critical hits.

3) Change Taunt from a 1-action activity to a Stance. Having to Taunt every round to insure the enemy focuses on you is an action tax the class cannot afford. Having it as a Stance means it get entered once at the beginning of combat, only being reused if that combatant drops, much like the Ranger's Hunt Prey ability.

4) If you aren't going to change the HP, then the ability to mitigate damage needs a huge buff. As it is, it barely matters at low levels, meaning a player will get bored and abandon this class before it gets interesting.

5) This class relies a LOT on reactions. Without a Commander to grant additional ones, Intercept Strike falls flat very quickly. And making the player chose between that or Shield Block is even worse. IF anything, it feels like a Guardian should have one free extra reaction to do either of those each round. It would also free up a Guardian to potentially use Reactive Shield or potentially, Attack of Opportunity (not granted to the class, I know). Personally, I would NEVER choose Reactive Shield as a feat for this class, knowing the Guardian is based on having reactions to prevent damage to allies.

I know this comes across very critical of the class. I'm not gonna lie; I was skeptical of how this would act in actual play. Having played a few Champions, I was interested in seeing how this stacked up. But I decided to play it out, to see if my fears were unfounded. As written, I now have no fear that the Champion would still reign in the "tank" niche for PF2. I would also have no desire to play this class either, as currently written.