Announcing the War of Immortals

Called it.

. . . And Arazni sure seems to have de-lichified herself, at least on the outside . . . .

By the way: I have no idea who the awesome pale young lady with the rather large sword riding the bloody dagger-headed uniquorn is on the cover of War of Immortals, nor who the demure, rather well-dressed-if-dowdy lass is on the cover of Divine Mysteries. I think she's got the lil Nosoi Yivali on her finger? Could be wrong. Anyone help a chap out? It says "Arazni is prominently on the cover"....but I thought she was a lich? Or at least undead?

Szuriel, the Horseman of War and Azrani, cause she's ok now.

By the way: I have no idea who the awesome pale young lady with the rather large sword riding the bloody dagger-headed uniquorn is on the cover of War of Immortals, nor who the demure, rather well-dressed-if-dowdy lass is on the cover of Divine Mysteries. I think she's got the lil Nosoi Yivali on her finger? Could be wrong. Anyone help a chap out?

No idea who the character from Divine Mysteries is from that description, but the person on the cover of War of Immortals is Szuriel, Rider of War, one of the Apocalypse Riders, formerly Horsemen, big bosses of daemonkind.

Horsewoman then? I like her style. And nice sword. Thanks for the image WAR! (Wayne Reynolds...)

Not sure if they have explained how Azrani got better, but she's replacing Gorum as a core god.

Oh, is the Commander gonna be smth akin to the Cavalier but ON FOOT? Can't wait!

Not sure if they have explained how Azrani got better, but she's replacing Gorum as a core god.

She got sploded by a magical soul-nuke while fighting TB.

nor who the demure, rather well-dressed-if-dowdy lass is on the cover of Divine Mysteries. I think she's got the lil Nosoi Yivali on her finger? Could be wrong. Anyone help a chap out? It says "Arazni is prominently on the cover"....but I thought she was a lich? Or at least undead?

It is definitely Arazni. Her appearance seems to have taken several changes.

They are int based, so more strategy than inspiring.

Not a huge fan of the class being named Commander, cause that's a title used a lot in military organizations. We have npcs called Commander <insert name>.

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

nor who the demure, rather well-dressed-if-dowdy lass is on the cover of Divine Mysteries. I think she's got the lil Nosoi Yivali on her finger? Could be wrong. Anyone help a chap out? It says "Arazni is prominently on the cover"....but I thought she was a lich? Or at least undead?

It is definitely Arazni. Her appearance seems to have taken several changes.

She once looked like this.
Then she appeared like this.
And now we have her more humanish appearance. Wonder whether she's still an undead...

Thanks. Currently, on the cover of Divine Mysteries, she looks like she’s about to attend a tupperware party. “Arazni, God of Hygienically sealed foods, birdwatching and polite conversation”.

Arazni is not still undead and hasn't been for 2e! At the end of 1e the radiant fire severed her connection to her soul cage, freeing her from her lichdom and leading to her ascension to a full goddess!

The commander is a martial support class that can issue commands to her allies, granting them extra movement, actions, reactions, and more.

Aha! Has the commander iconic's gender been alluded to anywhere else? I hear tell that a designer may have said "her"

Arazni is not still undead and hasn't been for 2e! At the end of 1e the radiant fire severed her connection to her soul cage, freeing her from her lichdom and leading to her ascension to a full goddess!

Oh, so does this mean she has been fully true resurrected? Without any connection to undeath at all?

Looking forward to all of that, but most especially the releases coming out in the summer; I've been hoping for some beefy Red Mantis content for a while now! I also love the theme of Curtain Call. It's going to be hard to decide between that and Fists of the Ruby Phoenix when our AV campaign wraps up and I take turn as the GM for the 11-20 campaign.

Also, will Godsrain be available in audiobook format?

That last question, I really hope so! All this news is really cool, but I’m very excited to see the fiction line started again.

silversarcasm wrote:

Arazni is not still undead and hasn't been for 2e! At the end of 1e the radiant fire severed her connection to her soul cage, freeing her from her lichdom and leading to her ascension to a full goddess!

Oh, so does this mean she has been fully true resurrected? Without any connection to undeath at all?

she’s a deity.

Her statblock is: deity

Hello everybody. Will there be a preview of the deities included in the manual, including the pantheons (old and new)? There are several minor deities I care about.

Hello everybody. Will there be a preview of the deities included in the manual, including the pantheons (old and new)? There are several minor deities I care about.

in what "manual"?

It seems 6 modules AP (or 1 to 20 adventures to be clear) are gone? Am I missing something?

Excited! What is the expected duration of the Commander/Guardian playtest? A month? Couple weeks? I know we can keep using it, just trying to schedule a game within a useful time window. Thanks!

Asher Graysky wrote:

Hello everybody. Will there be a preview of the deities included in the manual, including the pantheons (old and new)? There are several minor deities I care about.

in what "manual"?

If you mean the upcoming Battlecry! playtest for commander and guardian? definitely no, that's a playtest for those classes which will appear in a 2025 book.
If you mean War of Immortals? It'd be probably not have any deity stats since it'd probably focus on the player mechanics first and foremost (and no deity stat block is mentioned in the product description.)
If you mean LO Divine Mystery, then yes. THat's the book that's bascially a combination of a remaster version of LO Gods & Magic and also to have some updated deity lore during the War of Immortal event.

I was actually referring to LO Divine Mystery. I thank you for the answer.

It seems 6 modules AP (or 1 to 20 adventures to be clear) are gone? Am I missing something?

See this thread.

silversarcasm wrote:

Arazni is not still undead and hasn't been for 2e! At the end of 1e the radiant fire severed her connection to her soul cage, freeing her from her lichdom and leading to her ascension to a full goddess!

Oh, so does this mean she has been fully true resurrected? Without any connection to undeath at all?

I'm pretty sure that she has an Undead domain at least, so "without any connection" is probably not accurate. She certainly is going to have a decent number of undead followers. She herself isn't undead anymore, though, as far as we can tell.

Arina Tikhonova wrote:

silversarcasm wrote:

Arazni is not still undead and hasn't been for 2e! At the end of 1e the radiant fire severed her connection to her soul cage, freeing her from her lichdom and leading to her ascension to a full goddess!

Oh, so does this mean she has been fully true resurrected? Without any connection to undeath at all?

I'm pretty sure that she has an Undead domain at least, so "without any connection" is probably not accurate. She certainly is going to have a decent number of undead followers. She herself isn't undead anymore, though, as far as we can tell.

Her only current connection with undeath is having unwilling undeath in her Areas of Concern.

Sigh. I'm still not sure if not doing a playtest for the mythic rules is a good idea.

What is the giant mushroom creature on the cover of Pathfinder Godsrain?

Is Battlecry the name of the book? Have it been announced before? I have never even heard it.

On the cover of Divine Mysteries, are the three deities behind Arazni Sarenrae, Pharasma, and Asmodeus?

I still have no idea when and how Arazni has become a deity. In Tyrant's Grasp, Arazni was not even a demigod, just a powerful mythic character. Now, Tar-Baphon is still a mortal (albeit very powerful), yet Arazni has become a full-fledged deity? Did she touch the Starstone?

I still have no idea when and how Arazni has become a deity. In Tyrant's Grasp, Arazni was not even a demigod, just a powerful mythic character. Now, Tar-Baphon is still a mortal (albeit very powerful), yet Arazni has become a full-fledged deity? Did she touch the Starstone?

Arazni was a goddess even before she was a lich. Then she died, which made her into a dead goddess. Then Geb stole the corpse and raised her from the dead, which made her into an undead goddess. In PF1, she had statblocks both as "deity you can worship and get cleric spells from" and "exceedingly murdery mythic lich". Then Tyrants Grasp happened which mean that she stopped being undead... but was still a goddess.

Is Battlecry the name of the book? Have it been announced before? I have never even heard it.

Battlecry is just the name of the playtest. The actual book they will be in is still unannounced (probably because the name would spoil something)

They are int based, so more strategy than inspiring.

Ooh. I wonder if we will see a version of the old 1st Edition trait, Bruising Intellect, return in some form or another.

I still have no idea when and how Arazni has become a deity. In Tyrant's Grasp, Arazni was not even a demigod, just a powerful mythic character. Now, Tar-Baphon is still a mortal (albeit very powerful), yet Arazni has become a full-fledged deity? Did she touch the Starstone?

Arazni was Iomedae's goddess and Aroden's herald until she died.

Aenigma wrote:

I still have no idea when and how Arazni has become a deity. In Tyrant's Grasp, Arazni was not even a demigod, just a powerful mythic character. Now, Tar-Baphon is still a mortal (albeit very powerful), yet Arazni has become a full-fledged deity? Did she touch the Starstone?

Arazni was a goddess even before she was a lich. Then she died, which made her into a dead goddess. Then Geb stole the corpse and raised her from the dead, which made her into an undead goddess. In PF1, she had statblocks both as "deity you can worship and get cleric spells from" and "exceedingly murdery mythic lich". Then Tyrants Grasp happened which mean that she stopped being undead... but was still a goddess.

Which is strange actually. The question is what is the primary quality, being alive/dead/undead or being a deity? Does alive/undead even make sense for an immortal and indeterminate entity like a deity? If it really does, deities actually seem to be much closer to mortals.

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Aenigma wrote:

I still have no idea when and how Arazni has become a deity. In Tyrant's Grasp, Arazni was not even a demigod, just a powerful mythic character. Now, Tar-Baphon is still a mortal (albeit very powerful), yet Arazni has become a full-fledged deity? Did she touch the Starstone?

Arazni was a goddess even before she was a lich. Then she died, which made her into a dead goddess. Then Geb stole the corpse and raised her from the dead, which made her into an undead goddess. In PF1, she had statblocks both as "deity you can worship and get cleric spells from" and "exceedingly murdery mythic lich". Then Tyrants Grasp happened which mean that she stopped being undead... but was still a goddess.

Which is strange actually. The question is what is the primary quality, being alive/dead/undead or being a deity? Does alive/undead even make sense for an immortal and indeterminate entity like a deity? If it really does, deities actually seem to be much closer to mortals.

I've been kicking around the idea that ALL gods are former mortals of one stripe or another. Maybe combined of one or more mortal souls. It is only over time that they become more alien and detached.

This is baseless speculation for funsies.

Aenigma wrote:

I still have no idea when and how Arazni has become a deity. In Tyrant's Grasp, Arazni was not even a demigod, just a powerful mythic character. Now, Tar-Baphon is still a mortal (albeit very powerful), yet Arazni has become a full-fledged deity? Did she touch the Starstone?

Arazni was Iomedae's goddess and Aroden's herald until she died.

And also punked hard by Iomedae's crew to get her to 'dying'.

'By accident', of course.

But it looks like she got some beach time and is recharged and in-charge.

Which is strange actually. The question is what is the primary quality, being alive/dead/undead or being a deity? Does alive/undead even make sense for an immortal and indeterminate entity like a deity? If it really does, deities actually seem to be much closer to mortals.

Right now, there are only a very small number of things we know For Sure about the nature of divinity. From *my* knowledge of those...

- Deities are able to support clerics. This is pretty much definitional. Things that can support clerics are deities and things that can't aren't.
- Deities have basic unaging immortality.
- Deities do not require worshippers. There's no particular evidence that they even get any meaningful resources from acts of worship. Having worshippers is neither necessary nor sufficient to be a deity.
- Deities can be based on almost anything. Gorum certainly wasn't ever a mortal. We've had a fair number of deities that started out as demons (ie, soul-tainted qlippoth). Gozreh is another one for the "not really ever a mortal" side of things. Vildeis started out as a Celestial - a creature that simply emerged from the stuff of the plane of Heaven.

I... think that's it? There might be something in there about having some direct influence over their domains. There might not be. I don't know. Other than that, though? Not a lot.

And the deity aspect was put in place specifically to prevent folks from going "Oh, we murdered Pharasma in one round so we're all immortal now" and trying to make the claim that it covered everyone (or inspire other tables to do the same).

By not giving the deities statblocks, if memory serves, it becomes solely up to the GM if that's the story they want to tell -- and it will only hold for that table.

So really curious to see how that is maintained while things are going down.

Note that Gorum's death is something that happens on-screen and is witnessed by PCs... but I doubt we'll get any sorts of mechanics for any of it.

Much like Cain's jokey sheet in OWoD, true dragons in L5R, and Cthulhu's "1d6 Investigators per turn" bits in CoC, I would say that deities are going to remain stat-free, their victories and defeats matters of narrative.

We know the Orc pantheon is going to get whomped on, and we know a couple of other inbound deific demises, but none of it sounds like dice are going to be rolled to see how it goes.

Just sayin'... "1d6 investigators are swept up into his flabby claws and perish" are rules mechanics.

Just sayin'... "1d6 investigators are swept up into his flabby claws and perish" are rules mechanics.

Just so whatever we get is more repeatable in polite company than Cain's sheet...

Doube-post for Great Justice: I really want to think that's Yivali on Arazni's finger, and I think a deity looking after those who are unwillingly undead might actually get some care and consideration from Pharasma and her followers.

Note that Gorum's death is something that happens on-screen and is witnessed by PCs... but I doubt we'll get any sorts of mechanics for any of it.

Much like Cain's jokey sheet in OWoD, true dragons in L5R, and Cthulhu's "1d6 Investigators per turn" bits in CoC, I would say that deities are going to remain stat-free, their victories and defeats matters of narrative.

We know the Orc pantheon is going to get whomped on, and we know a couple of other inbound deific demises, but none of it sounds like dice are going to be rolled to see how it goes.

I could see Gorum's death being statted as a series of ridiculously high-level hazards, similarly to how Mogaru was used previously. I also wouldn't be surprised if the party had to fight someone while that was going on, trying to do combat while shards of divine iron and rains of deific blood smash the battlefield around them.

Doube-post for Great Justice: I really want to think that's Yivali on Arazni's finger, and I think a deity looking after those who are unwillingly undead might actually get some care and consideration from Pharasma and her followers.

I think it's much simpler than that.

Pharasma hates people who create undead.
Arazni hates people who create undead nonconsensually.

That's really more than enough for a fruitful cooperation right there, as long as they stick to the bits that they agree on.

I mean, it might grow past that. It's true. I'm not saying that it couldn't. I'm just saying that it's not necessary.

Horsewoman then? I like her style. And nice sword. Thanks for the image WAR! (Wayne Reynolds...)

She's been around since 2008 or so.

Though technically they're called the "Riders of the Apocalypse" now.

I admit I'm looking forward to mythic. Mostly because the Wrath game made it very flavorful and cool, and because I think PF 2e, unlike 3.x and PF 1e, is much less prone to snapping in half in general. So I think it won't fall apart as readily as 1e mythic did. Not a high bar, but hey - I want rules for playing a demon.

Less rocket tag is something I more than trust Paizo to be able to pull off.

Less rocket tag is something I more than trust Paizo to be able to pull off.

Yeah that was a 3.x problem exacerbated by Mythic - it's not like it was something Mythic invented.

It was already a caster roulette, kill-them-before-they-can-blink playstyle well before Mythic showed up. Mythic was mostly just the icing on the cake.

Whereas 2e is more like a tactical wargame, and one that tries to prioritize balance over absurd "you just lose, no of course you don't get a saving throw, what do you think this is, a fair fight?" effects.

So, I had a thought, and I don't know whether it should go here or in the Starfinder forum, but: it said an Gorum's death is apparent on every world he's worshipped on, which I can see why they made sure to include that, but what might that mean for non-Golarion worlds? Do we have enough information about the religious practices of, uh, I'm blanking on the names of the other planets in that solar system, so just imagine I actually named one here, to tell if some of them worshipped Gorum, possibly under a different name, and if so, what effects his death might have THERE?

Was it ever mentioned how long the vesk have been worshipping Damoritosh? Because I can easily imagine "one war god dies, another war god -- one of conquest this time -- steps in, and begins to forge them into an empire". (If that contradicts with Starfinder canon, then I choose to believe an that same kind of thing still happens, just on a different planet, which might or might not have lasted to Starfinder times.)

And yes, I know "Starfinder isn't guaranteed to be in the same continuity as Pathfinder", but let's pretend it is, for the sake of having fun with speculation.

Gorum, huh? Wow, that was… unexpected. I was so sure it’d be Sarenrae, but I’m kind of happy it wasn’t. And with Gorum being an amoral god of battle and bloodshed (no matter the cause), it makes sense that whatever power he leaves behind could be used for any purpose – good or ill. Perfect for setting up mythic heroes and villains alike.

This seems like a really cool event, but did I understand correctly that there’ll be no mythic adventure path like Wrath of the Righteous to tie in with the Godsrain? Or might this be the as-yet-unannounced product coming in 2025?

Gorum, huh? Wow, that was… unexpected. I was so sure it’d be Sarenrae, but I’m kind of happy it wasn’t. And with Gorum being an amoral god of battle and bloodshed (no matter the cause), it makes sense that whatever power he leaves behind could be used for any purpose – good or ill. Perfect for setting up mythic heroes and villains alike.

This seems like a really cool event, but did I understand correctly that there’ll be no mythic adventure path like Wrath of the Righteous to tie in with the Godsrain? Or might this be the as-yet-unannounced product coming in 2025?

None of the Adventure Paths in 2024 (all are now announced) will be built specifically for mythic characters. We (the developers) want to be sure we are comfortable with those rules before we develop them, and want to be able to supply our authors with the final rules as they'll appear in the book. None of that was available to us when we were working on Curtain Call (I finished developing that a few months ago, and it was done being written last year around Gen Con), and Triumph of the Tusk is just now being worked on.

Wrath of the Righteous taught us many valuable lessons about how and when and where to time something like a mythic Adventure Path.

But also... the whole War of Immortals meta-event is not just a one-and-done thing. It's going to continue to have us exploring new developments and stories from this point onward as things make sense.

Natural Three wrote:

Gorum, huh? Wow, that was… unexpected. I was so sure it’d be Sarenrae, but I’m kind of happy it wasn’t. And with Gorum being an amoral god of battle and bloodshed (no matter the cause), it makes sense that whatever power he leaves behind could be used for any purpose – good or ill. Perfect for setting up mythic heroes and villains alike.

This seems like a really cool event, but did I understand correctly that there’ll be no mythic adventure path like Wrath of the Righteous to tie in with the Godsrain? Or might this be the as-yet-unannounced product coming in 2025?

None of the Adventure Paths in 2024 (all are now announced) will be built specifically for mythic characters. We (the developers) want to be sure we are comfortable with those rules before we develop them, and want to be able to supply our authors with the final rules as they'll appear in the book. None of that was available to us when we were working on Curtain Call (I finished developing that a few months ago, and it was done being written last year around Gen Con), and Triumph of the Tusk is just now being worked on.

Wrath of the Righteous taught us many valuable lessons about how and when and where to time something like a mythic Adventure Path.

But also... the whole War of Immortals meta-event is not just a one-and-done thing. It's going to continue to have us exploring new developments and stories from this point onward as things make sense.

Even better! Personally, I loved Wrath of the Righteous, mechanics and all, but establishing the new mythic aspects of the world in the background (via other adventures and media) before going all-out with an AP sounds great.

With so many of the large conflicts and plot hooks in the original setting canonically solved during 1e, I was kind of wondering where the setting would go next. It didn’t seem to have quite the same need for adventurers anymore, but this certainly seems to shake things up again.

I never liked the settings-wide metaphysical disasters that tended to hit the Forgotten Realms between every edition of D&D, but the Godsrain sounds like a meta-event apocalypse done right. :)

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

Horsewoman then? I like her style. And nice sword. Thanks for the image WAR! (Wayne Reynolds...)

She's been around since 2008 or so.

Though technically they're called the "Riders of the Apocalypse" now.

I admit I'm looking forward to mythic. Mostly because the Wrath game made it very flavorful and cool, and because I think PF 2e, unlike 3.x and PF 1e, is much less prone to snapping in half in general. So I think it won't fall apart as readily as 1e mythic did. Not a high bar, but hey - I want rules for playing a demon.

If you don't mind 3P material, Roll for Combat has a playable demon ancestry in one of their books, Classic Creatures, which is also going to get an archetype once the fully compiled release is, uh, released.

I'm really, really curious to see what form these mythic rules are going to take. Are they going to be a smattering of various feats that give you crazy actions, will they be themed by archetype--that's the narrative use of the term archetype--like they were in the WotR game?
I'm assuming they will, at minimum, not be so tied to each of the core six stats as they were previously, mostly because of the issues later on when classes, like the kineticist, didn't fit neatly into any of those spaces.

I'm guessing it's a free archetype-like tack that gives 10 extra feats that you spend exclusively in you're mythic destiny. Maybe it's less though, like 5 feats. Either way I'm guessing it'll be 9 beefy archetypes.....which, now that I'm typing it, sounds like a lot. Maybe a mythic destiny is separate track that gives fixed benefits at certain levels (basically getting a handful of new class features bolted onto your class at certain intervals). That would take much less page space. IDK it could be a number of things, but I'm sure we'll get a peek of one at paizocon or gencon

I'm guessing it's a free archetype-like tack that gives 10 extra feats that you spend exclusively in you're mythic destiny

That would be the most intuitive and straightforward way to do it, for sure. That's where I'm leaning too, though I keep envisioning a progression of fewer feats, say five, that are each chunkier and grant more benefits for the tier you have. They might even grant bonuses to your core numbers, allowing you to punch above your weight class level-wise.

Edit: Oh, oopse. Quoted you before you were totally finished, sorry.