Natural Three's page

Natural Three wrote:

Gorum, huh? Wow, that was… unexpected. I was so sure it’d be Sarenrae, but I’m kind of happy it wasn’t. And with Gorum being an amoral god of battle and bloodshed (no matter the cause), it makes sense that whatever power he leaves behind could be used for any purpose – good or ill. Perfect for setting up mythic heroes and villains alike.

This seems like a really cool event, but did I understand correctly that there’ll be no mythic adventure path like Wrath of the Righteous to tie in with the Godsrain? Or might this be the as-yet-unannounced product coming in 2025?

None of the Adventure Paths in 2024 (all are now announced) will be built specifically for mythic characters. We (the developers) want to be sure we are comfortable with those rules before we develop them, and want to be able to supply our authors with the final rules as they'll appear in the book. None of that was available to us when we were working on Curtain Call (I finished developing that a few months ago, and it was done being written last year around Gen Con), and Triumph of the Tusk is just now being worked on.

Wrath of the Righteous taught us many valuable lessons about how and when and where to time something like a mythic Adventure Path.

But also... the whole War of Immortals meta-event is not just a one-and-done thing. It's going to continue to have us exploring new developments and stories from this point onward as things make sense.

Even better! Personally, I loved Wrath of the Righteous, mechanics and all, but establishing the new mythic aspects of the world in the background (via other adventures and media) before going all-out with an AP sounds great.

With so many of the large conflicts and plot hooks in the original setting canonically solved during 1e, I was kind of wondering where the setting would go next. It didn’t seem to have quite the same need for adventurers anymore, but this certainly seems to shake things up again.

I never liked the settings-wide metaphysical disasters that tended to hit the Forgotten Realms between every edition of D&D, but the Godsrain sounds like a meta-event apocalypse done right. :)

Gorum, huh? Wow, that was… unexpected. I was so sure it’d be Sarenrae, but I’m kind of happy it wasn’t. And with Gorum being an amoral god of battle and bloodshed (no matter the cause), it makes sense that whatever power he leaves behind could be used for any purpose – good or ill. Perfect for setting up mythic heroes and villains alike.

This seems like a really cool event, but did I understand correctly that there’ll be no mythic adventure path like Wrath of the Righteous to tie in with the Godsrain? Or might this be the as-yet-unannounced product coming in 2025?

thejeff wrote:

I'm just now curious if there's any connection between those being the last world's Rovagug targeted and the 3 worlds that developed humans.

The meta reason is that Androffa is the planet my homebrew is set on (although that's its ancient name—it's contemporary name has shortened to Droffa), Golarion is the planet that inherited a fair amount of lore from said homebrew, and Earth is where said homebrew was created.

There's certainly an in-world reason too about the deeper connection between those three, but it's not one we've explored much more than this blog post. Yet.

Wait... Are humans tiny spawn of Rovagug? :D

This does bring a question to mind, however. So many other properties use Dark Elves, purple or grey or even obsidian skinned elves that live in dark places and commit evil acts.

What about Pathfinder's 'drow' made them more subject to it than, say, the druchii from Warhammer? Purple and black armors, massive dark gothic structures, a matriarchal society, a heavy focus on slavery and dark evil magic... is it just the skin tone?

I'm not debating why Paizo needed to remove them. I just wonder why other properties get a pass. Elder Scrolls have dark elves, also, and Final Fantasy 14 has creatures called Mind Flayers (the last patch introduced a furnishing item based on one with their name as well, even). Is it the FORM of media, being a ttrpg, that makes Paizo exceptionally vulnerable?

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I suspect the reason why so many fantasy settings manage to include some form of drow-ish elves without getting in trouble with WOTC is - at least in part - because the idea of subterrenean elves with dark complexion goes all the way back to norse mythology. In the prose edda, døkkálfar (literally "dark elves") are described as elves who live underground and are "blacker than pitch". (Scandinavian folklore is full of supernatural beings that you can't see because they are either shapechangers, live underground, or blend into their surroundings.)

These beings weren't matrialchal, associated with spiders, or evil (at least not until the concept started to overlap with christian demons). Those are all WOTC's ideas, as is using the word "drow" to describe their subterranean elves, but I suppose the mythological dark elves make the border between WOTCs intellectual property and folklore more vague. Especially since there really isn't anything more to go on as far as the mythological dark elves are concerned. They might have been the same beings as dwarves, or possibly some form of deities on par with the aesir. Very few writings remain.

Apart from the name, I'm not sure if Pathfinder's drow violate WOTCs IP simply by filling the same niche of evil purplish cave elves (WOTCs orcs are pretty much lifted straight out of Lord of the Rings and that seems fine), but I'm no lawyer and even if Paizo could make the case that the concept falls under fair use, maybe it's not worth the potential legal troubles. I'm sure they've considered all possibilities and - as has previously been mentioned - Pathfinder's drow really were based on D&D. Maybe that makes it more difficult to argue that they are a separate thing, even after a namechange?

Personally, I won't really miss the drow. To me, they are very strongly associated with the Forgotten Realms, and I find Golarion's elves interesting enough without them. Since Pathfinder elves tend to slowly take on the appearance of their surroundings, I'm actually looking forward to seeing the design of the new cave elves when they are eventually revealed. Stone themed? Fungal? Bioluminescent? So many options. :)

PossibleCabbage wrote:

It's basically canon that Pharasma predate the current universe that contains Golarion, Hell, the First World, the Plane of Water, etc. She was specifically the lone survivor of the previous universe.

...

Not quite the lone survivor.

The Twilight Pitri Manasaputras are also from the previous multiverse.

Quote:

Similar to the highest caste of pitris, twilight pitris are manasaputras whose existence predates the current multiverse. Unlike the solar pitris, these creatures started their path to enlightenment in the preceding multiverse, not some more ancient one. During that indescribable existence, twilight pitris were mortals who ascended to the ranks of manus. Surviving the natural end of their native reality, they endured and were incarnated into the current multiverse as this higher caste of manasaputras.

The Solar Pitri Manasaputras have all survived the death of at least one previous multiverse.

Quote:

Each solar pitri is the embodiment of a soul that lived thousands— if not millions—of incarnations in at least one other multiverse that existed prior to the creation of the current one.

(All of that would seem to suggest that the Logos has also survived previous universes — perhaps all previous universes.)

The Windsong Testaments suggest that Yog-Sothoth is a kind of counterpart to Pharasma and so it might also be a survivor of one or more previous multiverses.

The manasaputras are… interesting. They seem to follow different rules altogether, compared to other reincarnating beings.

If I remember correctly, reincarnating souls either return to the Prime Material Plane on their own before ever entering the River of Souls, or they are sent back from the Boneyard by Pharasma or her courts. Either way, even reincarnating beings will eventually be properly judged and become petitioners just like everyone else. When that happens, they are subject to the normal process of dissolution, and the soulstuff eventually returns to the Positive Energy plane as unaligned quintessence.

However… Manasaputras are specifically described as being reborn in the positive energy plane, as a merger of new souls and “the potential of those who have learned from lifetimes of reincarnation”. Does that mean that their souls go through the entire cycle of life and death without completely breaking down? That might not actually be all that surprising since they can apparently survive the death of an entire multiverse.

The Logos entity that the Manasaputras are communicating with is strongly hinted to be the Monad, which is interesting since this entity also seems to have been involved in setting up the cycle of souls. At least it seems to have tasked the jyoti with their guardianship. Maybe it wasn’t all Pharasma’s idea after all (or maybe she was being manipulated somehow).

It doesn't quite add up, but I suspect this isn’t a canon conflict, so much as a hint that there is more to the River of Souls and the multiverse (multi-multiverse?) than the mortals (and possibly even the gods) of Golarion know.

I love digging into the rich lore of Pathfinder, but there is one thing I can’t quite wrap my head around. What is the relationship between the Monad and the cycle of souls?

How souls and the afterlife works has been described in detail. From what I understand, souls are formed from unaligned potentiality and when mortals die, they are judged by Pharasma, lose their memories and eventually (after some time as petitioners and/or outsiders) merge with the planes. Planar stuff is then eroded by the Maelstrom and once again becomes unaligned potentiality.

Seems simple enough. Mortal life is the way quintessence chooses how it is distributed among the planes, and eventually each soul’s journey comes full circle.

But then… How does the Monad fit into this? The Monad is said to exist both within and outside the Multiverse and represents the “transcendental undersoul of all life”. While it is most strongly connected to the aeons, mortal souls are also said to be emanations of the Monad. Concordance of Rivals even seems to hint that the Monad existed prior to the current iteration of reality and remembers what came before.

So… How does this work? On one hand, souls are described as temporary units of self-determining quintessence that are constantly created and destroyed, and on the other hand, they are described as manifestations of a greater (possibly timeless) entity with its own mysterious goals, almost akin to the Force in Star Wars.

Both are cool concepts, but they seem mutually exclusive, at least on the surface.

A great move, finally!

I seriously hope ORC freely allows related fanworks of multiple genres, be it novels or pantomimes(snort)...

Now, now... Can't have freelancers muscling in on that big RPG PANTOMIME MONEY, can they? ;)

Seriously, though, this is great news! Glad to see that Paizo and so many other publishers are fighting to keep the creative spirit of the original OGL alive. Thank you, everyone!

Very interesting!

I really like what I’m reading, but I’m not sure I understand how the conversion will be done. Is it entirely up to the players to construct their spells or will there be a list of example spells in the core book?

I like the freedom this system provides, and having played a lot of Pathfinder (but no Savage Worlds) I could probably recreate any existing caster character of mine using this toolset, but if I was entirely new to the setting I’d be interested to see a list of premade spells (like Cloudkill) just to get an idea of how the setting’s magic usually works.

Wow, I'm REALLY excited about this! I love Paizo's adventure paths, and I do play Pathfinder but I generally tend to prefer less crunchy systems. I've done some conversions myself, but... well... it's a lot of work.

I've never actually played Savage Worlds before, but what I've seen of the system looks very promising. I'll definitely be backing this!

I wonder what other adventure paths they might be looking to convert. Is Rise of the Runelords, Reign of Winter, and Mummy’s Mask the official list or just examples? (Personally, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Iron Gods.)