The Godsrain Prophecies Part Seven

MadScientistWorking wrote:

Benjamin Tait wrote:

MadScientistWorking wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I maintain my hope that Stolen Fate's mention of the sun is a fake-out, pointing to the deities of Mzali instead of Sarenrae... but I admit, I'm starting to sweat.

Wait you found who it was over a year ago???? o.O

It's a hint to something but not necessarily this, it could easily be a hint towards something else entirely.

Keftiu was the first person in the community to know about the event months before it was ever announced. Its not referring to the deity that dies in this event but the person who kills them off. Said person is a ** spoiler omitted **.

Huh? I've pointed to Mahja Firehair because Luis Loza wrote and highlighted the PFS scenario she's relevant in as a hint to the dead deity thing, somewhere on Reddit. I don't have any secret insight, I just read a lot!

I'm pretty sure you caught it before the announcement because I thought it was odd I heard about it before the announcement.

It's also funny too because I'm fairly certain this is building up to the a PFS scenario

I have a bit of a long-term prediction, that whoever dies, there will be a future event where they come back, but it'll be after years. Maybe the transition to 3E. Because if I recall correctly, they said the dead deity wasn't going to be brought back "at the end of the thing", nothing about them not pulling a Red Hood.

...which honestly I think would be really cool; the deity comes back, possibly changed, and the world's already moved on without them. No returning to where they had been, because that spot has been filled.

The whole problem with "killing off a character and then bringing them back to life" is the idea of doing something for shock value, but then undoing it so you can maintain the status quo. But if the status quo does NOT survive, then "the character's continued status as dead" becomes less important.

I was thinking the same thing. What if Iomedae pulled a Mr. Spock "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" and sacrifice herself only to return later.

keftiu wrote:

MadScientistWorking wrote:

Benjamin Tait wrote:

MadScientistWorking wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I maintain my hope that Stolen Fate's mention of the sun is a fake-out, pointing to the deities of Mzali instead of Sarenrae... but I admit, I'm starting to sweat.

Wait you found who it was over a year ago???? o.O

It's a hint to something but not necessarily this, it could easily be a hint towards something else entirely.

Keftiu was the first person in the community to know about the event months before it was ever announced. Its not referring to the deity that dies in this event but the person who kills them off. Said person is a ** spoiler omitted **.

Huh? I've pointed to Mahja Firehair because Luis Loza wrote and highlighted the PFS scenario she's relevant in as a hint to the dead deity thing, somewhere on Reddit. I don't have any secret insight, I just read a lot!

I'm pretty sure you caught it before the announcement because I thought it was odd I heard about it before the announcement.

It's also funny too because I'm fairly certain this is building up to the a PFS scenario

A scenario dealing with all the character's actions we're discussing already came out in June of 2023, so I don't think Keftiu has any secret knowledge! :)

Squiggit wrote:

Another thought. This is going to be the new Core 20 going forward, i.e. 19 of these gods + Arazni. So they're going to be the central, primary gods for Pathfinder as a game.

So imagine someone who's never played PF before getting introduced to the game post-WoI. Of the Core 20, which do you think (if they never existed) would make a reader think "Huh I wonder why there isn't a God of X" and which wouldn't?

Maybe that's not important. Maybe "Well we don't have X because..." is a good hook, but I also think that as a system and a game it's nice to have a wide variety of bases covered, and that might be an incentive to preserve certain deities (or leave others more vulnerable)

I think this is a really understated and critical point. We all love to talk about what would be a fun story development or an exciting twist, but Pathfinder isn't just for veteran players, it's for newcomers, too. That's why I think Lamashtu is safe--she is simply too valuable to the setting's core identity. It's also why I'd be, surprised, if it's Desna. I'd say she is the other "core" deity of the core deities. It literally all starts with those two.

The truth is, most "anyone can die" stories aren't really "anyone can die" stories. A story serves a purpose beyond shocking and exciting the audience. Likewise, a setting needs to remain accessible no matter when you're joining. If there was a cataclysm that obliterated Varisia, sure, that would be very exciting, but it would also eliminate one of the most important regions to Golarion's identity. New players would be left without that anchoring point. That matters.

A Golarion without Desna is simply less Golarion than it used to be. We could spare Pharasma, or Shelyn (awful as it'd be), or even Rovagug, but Desna? Honestly? I think killing her would be a mistake. It would represent the writers' priorities shifting too far from "let's make a great world to play in" to "let's tell a great story". And it will be a great story, and I'll...

Think this is the crux of it, really. However dies has to not only tell a good story, but also maintain a good setting to play a TTRPG in, and impact it in a fun way in the wake of their death and the divine war. Abadar would certainly be an impactful death, and could absolutely lead to a divine war... but would adventurers like to sort through a banking upheaval, shrinking of big cities, dissolution of the idea of civilization? Probably not. You can't really punch an economic crisis.

...Or I could be completely wrong about what killing him might entail, who knows? Urgathoa dying apparently caused more undead rather than less, so trying to predict that is difficult. But we do know that one of the effects of the upcoming divine war is an increase in the Exemplar class, so whoever dies has to rain asskicking juice down on some mortals. If it's also just Golarion it would loan more credence to the Gozreh theory, as I think they're pretty focused on that planet? At least they don't appear on Starfinder, separate universe or not. I also want to say it's probably a good guy, as that's more concerning, but I wouldn't stake on it either. I'd say my top picks currently for "possibly dying" are Gozreh, Gorum, Shelyn, Torag, and (reluctantly) Lamashtu and Rovagug.

Irori's blood would make a good ass-kicking juice too, just saying.
Also wasn't there a hint about three wovels, which disqualifies Torag/Gorum/Shelyn/Gozreh?

This needs to be a mega adventure path! I have been loving Godsrain!

Paizo has not explicitly *announced* it yet, but it is extremely, *EXTREMELY* likely that War of Immortals will be accompanied by an Adventure Path of at least four parts, and will be the second AP overall to use the Mythic rules in some form. (Especially since the currently announced APs go up to September of '24, and what will accompany War of Immortals has NOT been announced.) Possibly it will be two APs, linked or otherwise. It depends on how hard Paizo wants to go on this large a setting and rules expansion.

Irori's blood would make a good ass-kicking juice too, just saying.

Also wasn't there a hint about three wovels, which disqualifies Torag/Gorum/Shelyn/Gozreh?

I think the three vowels hint was just about which god would be confirmed safe on one of the weeks (It was Erastil I believe).

current thought is that either shelyn, desna, or abadar will be marked safe next week.

current thought is that either shelyn, desna, or abadar will be marked safe next week.

...and then row 5 and then row 1? That would make sense.

Squiggit wrote:

Another thought. This is going to be the new Core 20 going forward, i.e. 19 of these gods + Arazni. So they're going to be the central, primary gods for Pathfinder as a game.

So imagine someone who's never played PF before getting introduced to the game post-WoI. Of the Core 20, which do you think (if they never existed) would make a reader think "Huh I wonder why there isn't a God of X" and which wouldn't?

Maybe that's not important. Maybe "Well we don't have X because..." is a good hook, but I also think that as a system and a game it's nice to have a wide variety of bases covered, and that might be an incentive to preserve certain deities (or leave others more vulnerable)

I think this is a really understated and critical point. We all love to talk about what would be a fun story development or an exciting twist, but Pathfinder isn't just for veteran players, it's for newcomers, too. That's why I think Lamashtu is safe--she is simply too valuable to the setting's core identity. It's also why I'd be, surprised, if it's Desna. I'd say she is the other "core" deity of the core deities. It literally all starts with those two.

The truth is, most "anyone can die" stories aren't really "anyone can die" stories. A story serves a purpose beyond shocking and exciting the audience. Likewise, a setting needs to remain accessible no matter when you're joining. If there was a cataclysm that obliterated Varisia, sure, that would be very exciting, but it would also eliminate one of the most important regions to Golarion's identity. New players would be left without that anchoring point. That matters.

A Golarion without Desna is simply less Golarion than it used to be. We could spare Pharasma, or Shelyn (awful as it'd be), or even Rovagug, but Desna? Honestly? I think killing her would be a mistake. It would represent the writers' priorities shifting too far from "let's make a great world to play in" to "let's tell a great story". And it will be a great story, and I'll...

Golarion without Desna would be less Golarion for old players. Not for newcomers.

Cole Deschain wrote:

Calistria… …without causing too much real-life depression.

The problem is… she has a ton of really positive messages in there that people don’t see or skim over.

I really think that you have it backward, the majority of her themes are generally ones that push followers to what most people consider unethical behavior.

Two of her three edicts revolve around pursuing your own selfish desires and the third dictates that the follower seek out payback/vengeance when they're stopped from being selfish.

Her A features a requirement for devout worshipers act in a reactionary and petty way by never letting a slight go unanswered.

All of her Domain Spells are all about taking personal control away from others and forcing your own wishes over the free will of others.

She is a figurehead and model for liars and conmen while encouraging violent or humiliating retaliation for those who follow her guidance to exact a price from anyone who stands in their way from seeking pleasures of the body and hedonism.

The themes of being sure to tend to your wounds first is just about the ONLY positive thing about her and even then that is simply a dictation to ensure the survival of her followers. Nobody in their right mind should ever trust a sworn and loyal follower of hers with their coin or life because they will always seek out short lived thrills and personal gratification over the needs of others while lying, manipulating, and tricking anyone they believe opposes them.

I can't see how anyone can look at her and think that the directives and themes that she represents is even halfway good or encourages ethical behavior.

[ snip ]Fair enough. KC, I certainly respect you enough to take the advice so I've edited it out on your account. I still assert and think that my point stands that a lot of people are super hung up on the idea that sexuality is in itself a virtue and are misconstruing themes that involve it as imparting "goodness" onto big C. Beyond self-preservation and a subjective interpretation that sex=good there is very little else left in her lore that makes her complicated if anything he's a blunt tool and her main benefit to the setting is that she brings a kind of forbidden sex appeal to a game that is otherwise supposed to be mass market consumable and family-friendly.[ /snip ]

The death of Abadar leading to an unstoppable wave of bureaucracy across Golarion, with convoluted systems for measuring everything and even stricter predatory lending and credit systems being rolled out by Asmodeus would be terrifying, hilarious, and worthy of a prophecy.

Calistria is a wonderfully complex goddess with a wild mix of lessons to impart. That said, I honestly think your tone in that last paragraph is too condescending to really respond to in any productive way other than a Big Lebowski quote about opinions. Maybe check yourself a little? I'd rather you edit than it get moderated.

Anyways, personal interpretations are fun, but I don't think Calistria's followers are depicted half as harshly in the actual setting as in your readings. A certain Sandpoint vigilante comes to mind. She's a complicated goddess, that's all.

As far as Calistria goes... I like her (even if I think Arshea wears her more positive aspects a lot better than she does, as befits an Empyreal Lord being compared to a chaotic neutral deity who had custom antipaladins back in 1E).

That's why she's my current "what the hell, it's only money" bet for getting it in the neck. Because she'd be missed.

Offing a deity everyone's happy to see go, or nobody much cares about is... chump change.

(He says, moments before someone leaks that it's Irori)

The distinction is that Core 20 doesn't necessarily mean "most important gods in the universe" (unless you're Asmodeus' ego) but rather means "most important gods in this region" in which case its only natural that a Core 20 for somewhere beyond the Inner Sea doesn't include, for example, the Taldan humans who touched the Starstone.

The two continents do indeed share several deities in common, including Pharasma, Desna, and Lamashtu. Of course, a deity not appearing in the Core 20 of another continent doesn't mean they don't worship them there--just that the deity isn't as widespread. After all, even in the Inner Sea you don't find every deity equally represented in every nation. For that matter, I don't think the concept of the Core 20, by any name, is strictly diegetic.

The Core 20 is totally non-diegetic, but they are represented in-world in that they are the handful of gods that are well-known enough that you basically don't need to make a Lore check at all to be aware of them. So, like, no one in the Inner Sea region or Tian Xia needs to dig for answers on who Desna is (on a surface level, at least), but in the Inner Sea, someone might not be familiar with Tsukiyo.

The Core 20 was created in part so players and GMs could safely learn just a few gods and have them cover most niches that would arise in a campaign, either for players or enemies, and because originally it was far easier for the setting's creators to come up with a list of 20 brand new gods than 50. So there are very real real-world reasons the list exists, as well as the in-world conceit that they're the most well-known deities in a region, even if their worship isn't particularly common or overt (like worship of Rovagug or Lamashtu among the civilized peoples of the Inner Sea).

Wildly divergent opinions on deities from person to person makes this sort of story seem really difficult to tell. Like it's obvious that KC likes Calistria, but I haven't ever found her interesting enough to use her for anything even once. I think keftiu feels similarly about Torag, who I love.

I wonder if the planning meeting involves "what deity can we kill whose death and absence invokes a story that is going to be broadly interesting." Since like "Torag dies and the Dwarves need a moment" feels like a story that will bounce off people who have had their fill of Dwarfery. Irori dies wouldn't really do much for campaigns not set in Vudra (nothing wrong about a Vudran campaign, we just don't have the supporting materials to really run one yet.) Calistria bites it and it's sort of like the Torag thing but even more specific to Elves.

I mean, sure you can always have "the thing that killed whoever" be the driving engine for the plot, but for a hook you want people bought in for as many reasons as possible.

Still, I'm confident now that it's not going to be Shelyn since ZK's prophecy sort of underlines how her story is intertwined with her brother's, and you can't really end her story without resolving his. Like ZK dies and Shelyn is sad, but Shelyn dies and ZK hardly cares.

Eunaya Alumari wrote:

Cole Deschain wrote:

Calistria… …without causing too much real-life depression.

The problem is… she has a ton of really positive messages in there that people don’t see or skim over.

I really think that you have it backward, the majority of her themes are generally ones that push followers to what most people consider unethical behavior.

I think you're misunderstanding the argument here. It's not that Callistra is being held up as an ideal that we should all aspire to. It's that there are a lot of people who find that they are already in her domain to one degree or another, and having a goddess who's not inherently terrible who represents them matters in a "Yes, there is a place for me too" sort of way - just like Gozreh is intersex and the Prismatic Ray are poly lesbians and Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon are "there are really severe issues here but we're still family and that still matters"... and now Arazni is there for the abuse survivors and so forth.

Then, too, it's pretty clear that Callistra makes you personally break out in hives, and I can see how you get there, but she's not nearly as bad as your gut instinct is telling you she is. I'd try to explain it in more detail in a way that would make sense for you but, unfortunately, I just don't have those ergs right now. It's been a bit of a week, you know?

Side note: and now I'm putting together the idea of Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon being siblings who have a f!!@ed-up dynamic but who are honestly trying with my earlier idea of Zon-Kuthon pining after Vildeis from afar and I've suddenly got this image of Shelyn setting the two of them up on a blind date together as part of her ongoing "redeem my brother" efforts. "What? You're both Lawful. You're both into carving up your own bodies. You even share the pain domain. You really do have a lot in common. At least give it a try."

Then, too, it's pretty clear that Callistra makes you personally break out in hives

Let me dig up some of my decade-plus-old critiques of Cayden Cailean sometime :P

Safe to say every deity with any kind of impact is going to rub somebody the wrong way.

Still, I'm confident now that it's not going to be Shelyn since ZK's prophecy sort of underlines how her story is intertwined with her brother's, and you can't really end her story without resolving his. Like ZK dies and Shelyn is sad, but Shelyn dies and ZK hardly cares.

I really wound't expect Shelyn, but I'm not sure I agree with the "and Zon-Kuthon hardly cares" part. Like, these "prophecies" have been generating entirely new facts out of nowhere to tell their stories, and ZK does give the priests of Shelyn specific permission to hang around in Nidal and not get bothered. It's entirely possible that he really does care, it's just buried beneath a bunch of layers of deflective unpleasantness. If she died, though? I don't think we know how he'd react.

If anything, "god that everyone cares about" idea is more pushing the Rovagug theory in my mind than anything else. My only issue there is that it's unbalanced. Like, we already have one more "good" god int eh pantheon than "evil". Arazni is going to settle down into a sort of neutrality, but it's going to be a neutrality that's putting most of its effort into destroying evil things. Indeed, I feel like the neutral gods in general tend towards the "overall more helpful than harmful to people in general" side of things. In particular, Irori, Abadar, and Pharasma seem like they're pretty clearly "more helpful than harmful", and the only one I'd call more bad than good is Gorum.

Safe to say every deity with any kind of impact is going to rub somebody the wrong way.

Hmm. Fair... and probably just about everyone out there has some deity they particularly dislike, too.

I'd be tempted to start up a "talk about the deities you really don't like" thread, at leas in part because I suspect the answers would be interesting, but I have a suspicion that it would turn into a hell-hole of toxicity in relatively short order, and we just don't need that.

Hmm. Fair... and probably just about everyone out there has some deity they particularly dislike, too.

The ones that interest me aren't the ones we hate because we're kind of supposed to (Rovagug, Asmodeus, etc. are really not MEANT to be liked in most respects), but the ones we're meant to dig who manage to generate the exact opposite reaction...

I'd be tempted to start up a "talk about the deities you really don't like" thread, at leas in part because I suspect the answers would be interesting, but I have a suspicion that it would turn into a hell-hole of toxicity in relatively short order

That suspicion would be well-founded. Interesting as some discussion on the matter could be, threads for the haters invariably become calderas of seething negativity, even if nobody gets into any kind of fight over it.

We already have the "divine tier list" thread, and people are being polite-enough about their opinions there :)

We already have the "divine tier list" thread, and people are being polite-enough about their opinions there :)

Give me five minutes ;)

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Then, too, it's pretty clear that Callistra makes you personally break out in hives

Let me dig up some of my decade-plus-old critiques of Cayden Cailean sometime :P

Safe to say every deity with any kind of impact is going to rub somebody the wrong way.

Like the people who are twitchy about Iomedae. She is absolutely one of my favorite gods in the setting, and heavily incorporated into the 2E meta, but there are people who see her worship as the Christianity analogue of the setting, complete with inquisitions and divine wars against other gods' followers (note that this is discouraged in the actual text, but your table may vary). And that's a valid experience, even if it's not mine.

We already have the "divine tier list" thread, and people are being polite-enough about their opinions there :)

Ah? I think I missed that one. Do you have a link? Or at least an indicator of which sub-board it's on?

Both because I'm curious, and because if I *do* decide to start up a "Which gods do you particularly dislike and why" topic or something similar I suspect it will be informative on how to help it *not* fall into toxicity.

Gorum marches ever closer to his demise...

What's that, his armour is empty and filled with war as a concept?
Raining down upon lowly mortals and their tools to create Exemplars?
With an epic rule AP to collect the scraps of armour and trap that war essence before it spirals out of control

This entry needed to be about twice as long to have the emotional impact it deserved. All the right pieces are there, but it moved too fast to settle me in one mood before moving to another. I know you have word limits for good reason, but I think this one suffered.

I have a bit of a long-term prediction, that whoever dies, there will be a future event where they come back, but it'll be after years. Maybe the transition to 3E. Because if I recall correctly, they said the dead deity wasn't going to be brought back "at the end of the thing", nothing about them not pulling a Red Hood.

...which honestly I think would be really cool; the deity comes back, possibly changed, and the world's already moved on without them. No returning to where they had been, because that spot has been filled.

The whole problem with "killing off a character and then bringing them back to life" is the idea of doing something for shock value, but then undoing it so you can maintain the status quo. But if the status quo does NOT survive, then "the character's continued status as dead" becomes less important.

Whoever dies will echo in the setting for a long time. Aroden is still a big deal.

Rant about Red Hood

keftiu wrote:

We already have the "divine tier list" thread, and people are being polite-enough about their opinions there :)

Ah? I think I missed that one. Do you have a link? Or at least an indicator of which sub-board it's on?

Both because I'm curious, and because if I *do* decide to start up a "Which gods do you particularly dislike and why" topic or something similar I suspect it will be informative on how to help it *not* fall into toxicity.

This one has been making the rounds again.

Another thought. This is going to be the new Core 20 going forward, i.e. 19 of these gods + Arazni. So they're going to be the central, primary gods for Pathfinder as a game.

So imagine someone who's never played PF before getting introduced to the game post-WoI. Of the Core 20, which do you think (if they never existed) would make a reader think "Huh I wonder why there isn't a God of X" and which wouldn't?

Maybe that's not important. Maybe "Well we don't have X because..." is a good hook, but I also think that as a system and a game it's nice to have a wide variety of bases covered, and that might be an incentive to preserve certain deities (or leave others more vulnerable)

It is an interesting way of looking at it. So, what themes would be missing for each potential not-Safe Core 20 left ?

So :
Iomedae : we do not have a goddess of paladins anymore, but we have a goddess of the sun and redemption and killing those who cannot be redeemed. And if you like armors, we also have a war god who is an armor. Likely to work.

Torag : we do not have a god of dwarves and smiths anymore. Would you be interested in a goddess of love and beauty and art instead ? Unlikely to work.

Sarenrae : we do not have a goddess of the sun anymore, but we do have a goddess of paladins AND a goddess of death who hates undead. Likely to work.

Shelyn : we do not have a goddess of love, beauty and art anymore. Would you be interested in a goddess of lust and revenge ? Or maybe a god of perfection and knowledge ? Unlikely to work.

Desna : Sorry. No goddess of stars and luck and travelers anymore. Maybe a god of carousing and adventuring ? Or a god of trade, civilization and banks ? Unlikely to work.

Abadar : We do not have a god of trade and civilization and banks anymore. But we do have a god of home and community and a god of contracts and oppression. Likely to work.

Irori : We do not have a god of monks and self-discipline and knowledge anymore. Were you really that interested ? But we do have a god of order and civilization and also a god of tavern brawls and adventuring, and a goddess of fate and the cycle of souls. Also there is a god of discipline and pain. Might work. Not quite sure though. But then Irori is the deity I feel to be the blandest of the lot, so it shows.

Gozreh : our dual deity of Nature is not anymore. But we still have druids of course. We also have a butterfly goddess of stars and travel, a god of rural communities and hunting and even an elf goddess of wasps and revenge (and lust) if that is more your thing. Likely to work IMO.

Calistria : No goddess of elves, lust, revenge and wasps anymore. We do have a goddess of love and beauty, a god of carousing and having fun, a nice butterfly goddess of luck or a not-nice god of biting, burrowing and destroying. We also have a god of thieves, poisoners and murderers, and a god of hellish trickery. And new arrival, a goddess of reluctant undeath and relentless revenge. Likely to work actually.

Gorum : Sorry. Our god of war, armors and Barbarians is not here anymore. However, you might be interested in our goddess of knightly war, or our god of tavern brawls and adventuring. We also have a deity of Nature that can be quite violent, a goddess of lust, revenge and wasps and of course our terrifying god of utter destruction. Likely to work I think.

Norgorber : our god of secrets, murder, poison, thievery is gone, sorry. Would you like our god of hellish trickery and oppression maybe, or our elven goddess of lust and revenge, or our terror god of destruction, or maybe our god of sadism and pain ? Could work actually.

Lamashtu : no more goddess of monsters, deformity and cursed fertility available. What about a goddess of lust and revenge ? A god of darkness and pain ? A god of murderers and poisoners ? A god of terrible destruction and apocalyptic spawns ? Could be, but unlikely to work I think.

Rovagug : our god of terrifying destruction is not here anymore. Would you enjoy a god of war and violence ? A mother of monsters and madness ? Maybe a sadistic god of darkness ? Might be likely to work in the end.

It is an interesting way of looking at it. So, what themes would be missing for each potential not-Safe Core 20 left ?

Disagree on Abadar because his church is such a *societal* linchpin. Also, the fact that he's neutral is a big part of what he offers both from a story perspective as an NPC deity and from a character perspective as a PC deity. Abadar is the deity that you can follow who can work fairly well with others while not actually being part of whatever club they're in. You can have an Abadarite running Blood Lords with the LE in Geb just as easily as you can running Agents of Edgewatch with the LG in Absalom.

...but then, I like Abadar.

I think Rovagug is *more* replaceable than you're setting him here because basically no PCs were using him anyway, and the NPCs that were using him were all tiny apocalypse cults who can swap over from toiling feverishly for his release to toiling feverishly for his resurrection without really breaking stride. Really, from a storytelling standpoint, very little is lost there.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Still, I'm confident now that it's not going to be Shelyn since ZK's prophecy sort of underlines how her story is intertwined with her brother's, and you can't really end her story without resolving his. Like ZK dies and Shelyn is sad, but Shelyn dies and ZK hardly cares.

I really wound't expect Shelyn, but I'm not sure I agree with the "and Zon-Kuthon hardly cares" part. Like, these "prophecies" have been generating entirely new facts out of nowhere to tell their stories, and ZK does give the priests of Shelyn specific permission to hang around in Nidal and not get bothered. It's entirely possible that he really does care, it's just buried beneath a bunch of layers of deflective unpleasantness. If she died, though? I don't think we know how he'd react.

I'm pretty sure he would be devising his worst torments for whoever broke his favorite toy.

Only ZK is entitled to hurt his sister.

Here's the thing: I am pretty sure that whoever dies, the gods around them will change. If Shelyn dies, maybe the pieces of Dou-Bral catch fire, and he either gets a little bit better or a whole lot worse. Maybe the circumstances that kill Torag also lead to Shelyn becoming slightly more martial, with a greater focus on forging tools of protection and defense. "Someone must tend the forge." Etc, etc. It's worth considering that few gods may come out of this event wholly unscathed or unchanged.

I mean… I might have it backwards if we skip all the context. I listed a lot of good aspects there, not just the “tend to your wounds” thing. And while I understand that arshea has those aspects too, they are a Good, Heavinly, god. I don’t think love and sex should be unique to each other or made good or evil.

It's worth remembering that elves follow a very different version of Calistria from the version humans know.

I mean… I might have it backwards if we skip all the context. I listed a lot of good aspects there, not just the “tend to your wounds” thing. And while I understand that arshea has those aspects too, they are a Good, Heavinly, god. I don’t think love and sex should be unique to each other or made good or evil.

There's currently no evil sex/love deity with stats in pathfinder, actually. Socothbenoth exists but doesn't have a deity writeup.

I assume this is intentional, of course. But I'd agree that love is most definitely neutral and you can absolutely have an evil deity/character of love. Just look at Shakespeare's plays.

I'm pretty sure he would be devising his worst torments for whoever broke his favorite toy.

Only ZK is entitled to hurt his sister.

Yeah... that sounds about right... and at the same time, he doesn't hurt her in all of the ways he could hurt her. Like, she keeps reaching out to him, and he cherishes that (whether or not he'd admit it) and so he never hurts her in ways that would make her stop.

It's deeply messed up, and pretty badly toxic, bit it's not "doesn't care".

Naderi might become our newest villainous goddess of love if Urgathoa has her way with her. I'd certainly love it if she found her way back to Shelyn's arms, or maybe bonded with another undeath-themed trauma surviving goddess who may soon be gaining relevance.

That being said, alignment is slipping away fast in terms of relevance to all but the most blatant offenders. Naderi basically is pretty close to an "evil" goddess of love--in the same way Lamashtu is an "evil" goddess of motherhood. They're dangerous and destructive deities whose clerics may have a soft side if you play it the right way. Obviously, Naderi is on the other side of the "grey morality" river from Lamashtu, but they're both wading.

Urgathoa’s worshipers advocate for satiating all hungers. I am pretty sure that always included the sexual. It is just that her cults tend to go so far past the line of what Paizo wants to depict that we don’t usually get that aspect of her on the center stage. I am sure her followers would argue that she is the only true goddess of sex without limits.

Urgathoa’s worshipers advocate for satiating all hungers. I am pretty sure that always included the sexual. It is just that her cults tend to go so far past the line of what Paizo wants to depict that we don’t usually get that aspect of her on the center stage. I am sure her followers would argue that she is the only true goddess of sex without limits.

Sir Felix Einen, my PF1 RotRL Ranger who drunkenly married in sacred ceremony his Urgathoan very rich and very pretty wife (and now mother of his kid) before becoming a Paladin of Erastil cannot deny nor confirm such information.

The GM had lot of fun pulling a The Hangover side adventure on the whole party.

Torag : we do not have a god of dwarves and smiths anymore. Would you be interested in a goddess of love and beauty and art instead ? Unlikely to work.

My take is kind of the opposite here. Torag as a god of justice and family and industry and civilization kind of has a lot of overlapping coverage in the rest of the pantheon. There's no god just like him, but he's close enough to several others that his specific areas of interest are largely (though not entirely) covered.

I have some concern over Calistria, too, because there's some conceptual overlap between her revenge portfolio and Arazni's. Obviously very different flavors here, but maybe enough mutual coverage that Paizo would find her safer to shift off.

On the flip side, I think Abadar, Gozreh, and Gorum feel somewhat safer to me because their archetypes are broad and useful to the setting. I know all three have been called 'bland' but that also means they're open ended and cover a lot of territory, especially with alignment no longer existing and making things even fuzzier.

Desna I think is a somewhat interesting example too, in that while she's very unique, her combination of traits is somewhat eclectic enough that I think the Pantheon could survive without her... but at the same time she contributes very significantly to Golarion's product identity (along with other deities like Pharasma and Cayden) such that the setting would lose some of its definition without her.

I wouldn't say that Rovagug is conceptually a "god". Like, not in the sense of a "patron" even for villainous NPCs; he's more like an ideal or a goal or a madness, or a natural disaster. So in The Raven Black's post, I disagree with the bits that posit him as a potential replacement as a "god of destruction", because he really isn't.

...heck, I've just realized: I want him out of the Core 20 on that issue alone. He's more "existential threat" than god; not in terms of power, but "role". Like, literally any demon lord would be a better fit than him in that position, because THEY at least can be bargained with; they won't KEEP their bargains, but at least they CARE about SOMETHING so it's theoretically possible to have your desires align.
I don't need Rovagug to die, but his place in the main books should be roughly equivalent to "the Test of the Starstone". An important part of the setting, and something that all characters are assumed to know about in broad strokes, but not on the list of character options.

RE: "Regionally" based "Core" 20.

Ok, a conceit. As a tool for generic, Avistani/Garund based/centred games. Thanks all.

That was what I was thinking, just trying to work out why they are termed that, as opposed to previous works of real world and fantasy mythology that uses "pantheons". That some gods are a part of more than one of.

I also like the Midgard Campaign Setting that uses the concept of "Masks" whereby the same deity is presented as different species/genders/ancestries/ages etc by wildly different peoples around the world. They are worshipping the same god, just...differently.

I find the "Core 20" as a term...a conceit I don't particularly like, but understand why it is used.

That was what I was thinking, just trying to work out why they are termed that, as opposed to previous works of real world and fantasy mythology that uses "pantheons".

Bear in mind, Pathfinder in particular owes a lot of its DNA to 3rd edition D&D... which had a "core" pantheon of (IMO, insanely boring and forgettable) Greyhawk deities... but never used the words "Greyhawk" or "Oerth" anywhere in the text.

While PF2E baked more Golarion into the core rules, it's still a case where the rules and the setting aren't inherently a package deal, and a more technical/"gamey" term is going to have some longevity.

Jan Caltrop wrote:

I have a bit of a long-term prediction, that whoever dies, there will be a future event where they come back, but it'll be after years. Maybe the transition to 3E. Because if I recall correctly, they said the dead deity wasn't going to be brought back "at the end of the thing", nothing about them not pulling a Red Hood.

...which honestly I think would be really cool; the deity comes back, possibly changed, and the world's already moved on without them. No returning to where they had been, because that spot has been filled.

The whole problem with "killing off a character and then bringing them back to life" is the idea of doing something for shock value, but then undoing it so you can maintain the status quo. But if the status quo does NOT survive, then "the character's continued status as dead" becomes less important.

I was thinking the same thing. What if Iomedae pulled a Mr. Spock "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" and sacrifice herself only to return later.

It was stated that the deity that dies will not return, so whoever gets axed, is going to be axed permanently. It's a one-way trip.

Granted, Iomedae might still make this sacrifice, but I don't think they would do so with the expectation that they will return; even if they did, it will probably backfire in the end. As Paizo said, this would undermine the entire premise of axing the deity if there are no permanent repercussions behind it.

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

That was what I was thinking, just trying to work out why they are termed that, as opposed to previous works of real world and fantasy mythology that uses "pantheons".

Bear in mind, Pathfinder in particular owes a lot of its DNA to 3rd edition D&D... which had a "core" pantheon of (IMO, insanely boring and forgettable) Greyhawk deities... but never used the words "Greyhawk" or "Oerth" anywhere in the text.

While PF2E baked more Golarion into the core rules, it's still a case where the rules and the setting aren't inherently a package deal, and a more technical/"gamey" term is going to have some longevity.

Oh absolutely... I remember those, and the Core gods from PF1. Which to be honest always felt like they were serving the same boring/forgettable purpose, and thus weren't...very interesting.

It always bugs me that PF2 is Golarion by default, and even worse, so Avistan-centric.

I won't pick a fight, because I feel like any argument is likely to veer wildly off-topic, but I'll just say that Wee Jas is one of my very favorite deities of all time and *starts picking a fight and has to redact the rest of this post*

... That's one of those weird things that's never really been explored.

What does it mean when a deity is regional, compared to another that's got a much broader appeal?

It feels kind of odd, given that we're talking about cosmic beings with extraordinary power and influence. Doubly so when we see in these prophecies that their existence directly influences their portfolios.

Religion is so important to culture it makes a lot of sense to have regional variations and unique faiths, but it sort of chafes against them all being indisputably real people too.

Like what does "Urgathoa's death breaks the natural cycle of life and forces the dead to come back" mean in Osirion or Tian where she's not even a meaningfully significant deity?

... I feel like there isn't really a satisfying way to answer this though so it's probably best to just not think about it.

I think it's just a matter of culture. There are lots of Desna worshippers in Varisia, but far less in Cheliax. Grandmother Spider is just a more popular religion in the Mwangi Expanse, while the fact that she dunked on basically every other god that happens to be popular in Avistan may have slightly contributed to her being less popular up north.

Eunaya Alumari wrote:

I mean… I might have it backwards if we skip all the context. I listed a lot of good aspects there, not just the “tend to your wounds” thing. And while I understand that arshea has those aspects too, they are a Good, Heavinly, god. I don’t think love and sex should be unique to each other or made good or evil.

There's currently no evil sex/love deity with stats in pathfinder, actually. Socothbenoth exists but doesn't have a deity writeup.

I assume this is intentional, of course. But I'd agree that love is most definitely neutral and you can absolutely have an evil deity/character of love. Just look at Shakespeare's plays.

Urgathoa kind of has the evil part of sex going on though it is more about excess and gluttony. Lamashtu too since, mother of beasts and all the weird stuff that goes on there. Since all most people point out is how similar Urgathoa is to Calistria. Granted, Lust is more appropriate but, all that means to most, is Sex.

My point of that line was more that I like Calistria for her casual view of sex, and her churches non-traditional view of relationships.

And I am really tying not to ruffle feathers here. Calistria is a deity that when I started playing all those years ago, I knew nothing about. Sex god of elves. But the more I read about her, and took in all the context from the books and other sources, the more it clicked and the more I felt represented. As much as people may feel represented by the Prismatic Ray, I do feel represented by Calistria's view of sex, personal freedom, acceptance of yourself despite how others feel and non-traditional relationships. If all of the things about her still do not make any sense there is still two, positive, lines from Paizo's writing of her. "I devote myself to the pursuit of my passions" and "If you worship Calistria, you consider yourself a free spirit. Though you may be shackled by everyday life,
you yearn to break free." (From her old Anti-Paladin code, and Faiths of Balance respectively.)

I really do not mean to go on, but the "People may be less depressed" bit just rubbed me the wrong way since many have such a negative opinion of her. She may not be all good, but she is far from pure evil.

For what it's worth, I never really saw gluttony as being purely about food. There's nothing wrong with enjoying food. It's about excess and hedonism at the expense of others' basic needs. Urgathoa is absolutely a goddess of hedonism. The Dead don't need to eat, they just like to--and they sure don't need to eat people. And I'm positive there's other forms of selfish hedonism in her repertoire.

For what it's worth, I never really saw gluttony as being purely about food. There's nothing wrong with enjoying food. It's about excess and hedonism at the expense of others' basic needs. Urgathoa is absolutely a goddess of hedonism. The Dead don't need to eat, they just like to--and they sure don't need to eat people. And I'm positive there's other forms of selfish hedonism in her repertoire.

I think you're right. The Urgathoa prophecy called out the undead for eating and drinking so quickly that they barely tasted anything.