Field Test #3: That Cantina Feel

For that matter, what if I'm playing one of those vesk with built-in armor? Are PF2-style armor runes going to actually show up in the SF2 core rulebook?

That seems a little strange, yeah. Because I don't think runes will feature in the SF2 CRB at all. This is likely just a case of early design.

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As a sidenote, I really like it that you are continuing the idea of "you are not intended to win at character creation". Including minimizing the amount of things players can make themselves immune to. I used to not like that, but after getting used to the idea for a few years and sitting at the other side of the GM screen, I can appreciate the fact that players always have to interact with the game. Rather than checking out of a situation, because they are immune. You can always buff abilities to return that immunity when your table is into that, but coming up with your own more reasonable versions is a lot harder.

Though I definitely agree, that android level 9 breathing feat is major overkill on that front. All players get to completely ignore that part from the start of the game essentially for free, as long as they wear armor, which is presumably returning in SF2.

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Some more observations on feats:

It's kinda weird that Androids get Thievery with their lore feat, as they do in PF2. I suppose that is because of their history of having to escape slavery or similar circumstances?

Brutal Anatomy is cool. I'm really digging the claws, finally a reasonable unarmed attack that you don't have to jump through several hoops to get. And the jaws look like a direct downgrade, but then I realized that with the grapple trait on there, you can use them to grapple while you have your hands full. The tail is great for Trip in the same situation. Given that I expect a lot of vesk players to have their hands full of doshko, that sounds great!

Making it a versatile heritage would mean everyone but humans effectively lacks a heritage. The point is to give all players non-mono-culture non-stereotype options for their ancestries.

Human might suffer slightly as a result, but I'd prefer that then being restricted by ancestry so severely as PF2e.

...and I see what your'e advocating for here, and it seems like it's calling for making ancestries even more bland than they already were. I mean, at the moment, ancestry differences are barely vague suggestions that are there to fill out the fantasy some. I guess i can understand the position of "I hate that biological differences are a thing and I want them to be less of a thing" but for me it's just stripping out even more of what could be making these characters interesting.

If anything, I'd suggest some sort of "default to General feat" thing. Like, if your character wants to divorce themselves from their heritage to focus on other things that's cool and all, but make it an explicit stepping away from heritages in general, rather than just autopoaching humanity's

But there is more to Starfinder than just a name change from Path to Star, and those differences matter to some of us.

I'm reserving judgment until I see the playtest, but at the moment I'm not convinced that they matter to the folks writing it either.

CorvusMask wrote:

just to note though as automaton player in pathfinder 2e, it breaks the roleplaying fantasy when I have to make disease rolls and can't stuff myself in a box and etc fantastic construct flavored things :'D

Like... Its really boring there isn't any fun flavor to playing a construct

The Ancestry is built like that to prevent a percentage of GMs from banning the ancestry due to its advantages.

The good thing is, your GM does have an override power, as referenced by the Basic Undead Benefits from the Book of the Dead, and the natural Fly Speed rules from the Ancestry Guide. Both say the GM has the discretion to override these limiters if they think they can work with it. So it would be easy to override the limiter on the automaton with your GM's permission.

If your GM would still disallow the override, that means they probably would not have let you play an automaton in the first place if it was designed with construct immunities baked in.

Ye haven't run into GM who usually run things as written because they assume developers have balanced things correctly and they don't want to accidentally upset the balance :'D

Like yeah, lot of gms house rule small things in way they think make more sense, but lot of gms also kinda avoid tweaking things like that even outside of society unless there is explicit sidebar about it

Driftbourne wrote:

But there is more to Starfinder than just a name change from Path to Star, and those differences matter to some of us.

I'm reserving judgment until I see the playtest, but at the moment I'm not convinced that they matter to the folks writing it either.

Please don't ascribe motive to the people writing this game; you don't know us or our motivations. We care deeply about Starfinder, and several of us were involved in writing for the original launch of SF1E. Our motives are clear in that we want Starfinder to be the strongest game offering it can be and to attract a large number of new players to keep the game viable.

To address the concern more directly, our team is absolutely intent on making Starfinder a game that can stand on its own. However, we're also dedicated to making Starfinder a game that is fully compatible with PF2E, because that will increase the overall viability and interest in the game and setting.

Ye haven't run into GM who usually run things as written because they assume developers have balanced things correctly and they don't want to accidentally upset the balance :'D

Like yeah, lot of gms house rule small things in way they think make more sense, but lot of gms also kinda avoid tweaking things like that even outside of society unless there is explicit sidebar about it

The homerule is actually stated in the books for GM's to issue at their own risk. pg. 45 of book of the dead, and pg. 66 of Ancestry guide, respectively. The rules also state that these rules are in place, because the developers explicitly believe that those options are upsetting to the balance unless a GM has confidence they know how to deal with it.

So enabling higher-powered races would just fool the GM into allowing an ancestry that does upset balance thinking it won't until it's too late. A hard lesson I had to learn GMing PF1E, lol. That taught me why it's good practice to set up a banned race list when playing PF1E.

The nerfs are in place for a reason, and I appreciate having immunities and flight on an on/off switch. For example, I have flight on, but immunities off.

I'm not going to reply directly to this tone-policing but personally I don't think you can square the circle of "game that can stand on its own" and "100% compatible with Pathfinder 2e" without compromising something that will leave me saying "that's a great campaign setting splat, but it's missing what made Starfinder 1e unique".

Anyways, like I said, look forward to your playtest. Not really impressed by the SF hack for PF2e though. If that's all it is, I'll just keep my PF2e rules and use the SRD material.

I'm not going to reply directly to this tone-policing but personally I don't think you can square the circle of "game that can stand on its own" and "100% compatible with Pathfinder 2e" without compromising something that will leave me saying "that's a great campaign setting splat, but it's missing what made Starfinder 1e unique".

Anyways, like I said, look forward to your playtest. Not really impressed by the SF hack for PF2e though. If that's all it is, I'll just keep my PF2e rules and use the SRD material.

That's not tone policing, that was just you being incredibly rude. As for the rest, well you can't please everyone I guess. Certainly not someone with that attitude...

I noticed that the text 5th level android feat 'Machine Saboteur' only makes sense for melee attacks, but the feat works for any attack.

MACHINE SABOTEUR FEAT 5
ANDROID
You were created to fight other synthetic creatures, and your
attacks unleash destructive nanites that disrupt their systems.
When you roll a critical hit against a creature with the tech trait,
the target becomes glitching 1.

If its the android's nanites that are causing the glitching, then the feat shouldn't work if the android is using a ranged attack, because the nanites couldn't reach the target. For example, it is a pretty big stretch to come up with how this would work with a lasr rifle. The nanites are hitching a ride on the coherent light of the laser?

If instead the glitching is from the android's knowledge of other machines, then the effects of the feat make sense for any attack, but then text should be changed.

It would still be a good feat if it only worked on melee attacks.

Leon Aquilla wrote:

Driftbourne wrote:

But there is more to Starfinder than just a name change from Path to Star, and those differences matter to some of us.

I'm reserving judgment until I see the playtest, but at the moment I'm not convinced that they matter to the folks writing it either.

Please don't ascribe motive to the people writing this game; you don't know us or our motivations. We care deeply about Starfinder, and several of us were involved in writing for the original launch of SF1E. Our motives are clear in that we want Starfinder to be the strongest game offering it can be and to attract a large number of new players to keep the game viable.

To address the concern more directly, our team is absolutely intent on making Starfinder a game that can stand on its own. However, we're also dedicated to making Starfinder a game that is fully compatible with PF2E, because that will increase the overall viability and interest in the game and setting.

Just to be clear since I'm partially quoted in the middle of this out of context. My original quote was:

"I do play both Starfnder and PF2e, and I like both, I like the idea of them being compatible, and plan to mix them for homebrew. But there is more to Starfnder than just a name change from Path to Star, and those differences matter to some of us. I will go where the Stellifera are. How often do you get to play a Diminutive creature with a 5-foot land speed, and multiple ability flaws in Pathfinder2e?"

This was in response to a PF2e player not any of the developers. I see no reason we can't have Stellifera in SF2e it was just a reference to show how strange Strafinder can get. I think the Developers have been clear from the start that they care about Starfinder, but I'm not sure all PF2e-only players realize there is more to Starfinder than just being Pathfinder in space even if the rules are compatible.

I mean, the answer to "how often do you get to play a Diminutive creature... in Pathfinder2e" is "never, that size category no longer exists."

There is, however, an ancestry that is the smallest size category (Tiny) already. The primary impediment to playing that ancestry is that they have a reach of 0, not that they're especially slow (20') or they have a lot of stat flaws (just STR).

Generally you're not going to see PF2 ancestries balanced against "they have bad stat arrays" since I assume SF2 is going to preserve the change that PF2 made in the last update before the Remaster which carried through the remaster "Because of the wide variety of people within any ancestry, you can always choose to take two free boosts to represent your character, even if the ancestry normally has three boosts and a flaw." So you at level 1 you can play an Android Envoy with a +4 Cha, or a Vesk Mystic with +4 Wis.

To date we haven't seen a single PF2 ancestry that isn't either "three boosts and a flaw" or "two boosts and no flaw" and don't expect the stat array to maintain continuity with the previous edition. Goblins went from ++Dex, -Str,-Cha to +Dex,+Cha,-Wis; I assume Space Goblins will follow a similar trajectory.

I mean, the answer to "how often do you get to play a Diminutive creature... in Pathfinder2e" is "never, that size category no longer exists."

I am mostly in agreement, I have a minor nitpick to correct that while Diminutive and Fine Size categories are not available, the Sprite is still a Diminutive Creature height-wise. So you could still play a Diminutive-sized creature, you'd just be classified as Tiny. Like hypothetically, you could probably play an awakened cricket, a Fine creature, you'd just be Tiny statistically. Pest form even uses praying mantis as an example to show that fine creatures are Tiny.

So flavorfully, you could play a diminutive creature, you just would not get all of the buffs and penalties to the degree PF1E and SF1E would have granted. It all means a Sprite, a Quasit, and an awakened cricket will be treated as the same as far as size bonuses and penalties go.

I'm not going to reply directly to this tone-policing but personally I don't think you can square the circle of "game that can stand on its own" and "100% compatible with Pathfinder 2e" without compromising something that will leave me saying "that's a great campaign setting splat, but it's missing what made Starfinder 1e unique".

Anyways, like I said, look forward to your playtest. Not really impressed by the SF hack for PF2e though. If that's all it is, I'll just keep my PF2e rules and use the SRD material.

TIL that someone saying "Hey buddy, back up a bit and remember you're talking to human people that you're making weird assumptions about" is tone policing instead of just normal reminding not to be rude.

I mean, for the devs? I get it. I sympathize.

You want the game to actually thrive. In order to thrive, it needs to get money, so that it can pay for designers and writers to put out books to sell books to get more money and over time create this deep, rich RPG experience with lots of happy players.

Being 100% compatible with PF2 is a huge win for that dream - big enough that it's just not reasonable to leave it on the table. I get it. I mean, I myself am here because of the PF2 compatibility thing.

...but we look at the way that PF2's rules just dilute the hell out of any kind of rules support for awesome/weird species, and we can't come up with a way to fit into the PF2 paradigm without choking down that pill, and we notice that the devs keep making sort of general expressions of will and desire and intent but not actually anything that suggests hat they have those answers either and we look to the future and what we see being lost and we mourn.

Well, I mean, I mourn. I guess there are some folks out there who still think that raging against it enough might somehow create the magical perfect reality where this thing doesn't happen. I seem to recall that on the Pathfinder side, there were still folks like that for years after PF1 stopped publication and PF2 was rolling along. It is what it is.

Maybe... could we possibly get one of those "optional rules" pages? You know, like the one from PF2 about "what if flying ancestries just got full flight from level 1"? It might be nice to have some sort of official text somewhere that said things like "and if you want to run a campaign where androids don't get diseases and don't have to breathe, because you weren't planning on having disease or decompression be plot points anyway, then that's okay. That's a reasonable houserule to make." You could stack it next to "if you find the implementation of multi-arm races disappointing then" and "If you want your Selamid to actually act like an ooze" and so forth, and possibly something in there to give to the more normal ancestries in compensation so that a human and a selamid and a skittermander can adventure together and not have one of them be clearly worse.

Generally you're not going to see PF2 ancestries balanced against "they have bad stat arrays" since I assume SF2 is going to preserve the change that PF2 made in the last update before the Remaster which carried through the remaster "Because of the wide variety of people within any ancestry, you can always choose to take two free boosts to represent your character, even if the ancestry normally has three boosts and a flaw." So you at level 1 you can play an Android Envoy with a +4 Cha, or a Vesk Mystic with +4 Wis.

To date we haven't seen a single PF2 ancestry that isn't either "three boosts and a flaw" or "two boosts and no flaw" and don't expect the stat array to maintain continuity with the previous edition. Goblins went from ++Dex, -Str,-Cha to +Dex,+Cha,-Wis; I assume Space Goblins will follow a similar trajectory.

I'd even go so far as to argue that it was SF1E that led us to this paradigm of more tightly monitoring the boosts ancestries get. Orcs having a small ability bump turned out to be unbalancing to the game and got corrected, and the stellifera's interactions between their abilities and character arrays did some even wonkier things. I think this is one of those spots where the devs looked at weird interactions in SF1E and applied them to PF2E, and SF2E by extension.

I mean, for the devs? I get it. I sympathize.

You want the game to actually thrive. In order to thrive, it needs to get money, so that it can pay for designers and writers to put out books to sell books to get more money and over time create this deep, rich RPG experience with lots of happy players.

Being 100% compatible with PF2 is a huge win for that dream - big enough that it's just not reasonable to leave it on the table. I get it. I mean, I myself am here because of the PF2 compatibility thing.

...but we look at the way that PF2's rules just dilute the hell out of any kind of rules support for awesome/weird species, and we can't come up with a way to fit into the PF2 paradigm without choking down that pill, and we notice that the devs keep making sort of general expressions of will and desire and intent but not actually anything that suggests hat they have those answers either and we look to the future and what we see being lost and we mourn.

Well, I mean, I mourn. I guess there are some folks out there who still think that raging against it enough might somehow create the magical perfect reality where this thing doesn't happen. I seem to recall that on the Pathfinder side, there were still folks like that for years after PF1 stopped publication and PF2 was rolling along. It is what it is.

Maybe... could we possibly get one of those "optional rules" pages? You know, like the one from PF2 about "what if flying ancestries just got full flight from level 1"? It might be nice to have some sort of official text somewhere that said things like "and if you want to run a campaign where androids don't get diseases and don't have to breathe, because you weren't planning on having disease or decompression be plot points anyway, then that's okay. That's a reasonable houserule to make." You could stack it next to "if you find the implementation of multi-arm races disappointing then" and "If you want your Selamid to actually act like an ooze" and so forth,...

I would love, love, love this. I also have an unhealthy relationship with sidebars though; having little asides in the marginalia that lay out ways to tweak your game are great.

Maybe... could we possibly get one of those "optional rules" pages? You know, like the one from PF2 about "what if flying ancestries just got full flight from level 1"? It might be nice to have some sort of official text somewhere that said things like "and if you want to run a campaign where androids don't get diseases and don't have to breathe, because you weren't planning on having disease or decompression be plot points anyway, then that's okay. That's a reasonable houserule to make." You could stack it next to "if you find the implementation of multi-arm races disappointing then" and "If you want your Selamid to actually act like an ooze" and so forth,...

100% agree. Giving GM's the metaphorical console command table to turn on the full-blast ancestry capability, while giving them a valid reason to say no to their players if the GM so wishes, seems perfectly reasonable.

I mean, we already have Rule Zero. It's all but guaranteed to be in the SF2e CRB, like it is in PF2. It's a hammer, not a scalpel, but: we already have the tools and permission to change whatever we want. (And yes, I am aware of the usual repudiations to Rule Zero :D)

I'd rather have the final product be "something that feels like Starfinder" rather than "something that feels like PF2 (but here's a sidebar if you want six arms or whatever)" but, like Sanityfaerie said...it is what it is. If this is the cost of having any Starfinder at all, rather than no Starfinder, so be it.

we look to the future and what we see being lost and we mourn.

This is far from real feedback, just a couple things that make me wonder a bit.

Androids not being able to survive in a vacuum does bring up some questions. Is it this way because it was too strong in sf1e? Being able to bypass a chunk of hazards or effects, not having to worry about environmental protections in a bunch of situations, etc? Is the decision partially to keep sf2e in line with pf2e? Personally being able to survive in a vacuum was, to me, so useful that it made android feel almost like the optimal choice in sf1e, which I didn't like. In my ideal world, in sf2e having an early level, cheap augment giving the ability to survive indefinitely in vacuum would be ideal, making and ancestry able to fit into sf2e much easier.

The other thing I wonder about is the ancestry option of having a hollowed out arm. It's very cool, but I hope in the end product that will be something anyone can get as an augment? Having that as an ancestry feat makes me worry it won't be an equipment option.

As a freelancer who worked on a significant amount of Starfinder First Edition, this document actually reinforces the vibe I got playing the envoy at PAXU last month—Starfinder 2E feels WAY more like Starfinder 1E then Pathfinder 2E felt like Pathfinder 1E. Like, for starters every feat and heritage in this document is a thoughtful conversion of at least one of SF1's alternate racial traits. Great example is the android heritage that lets you pick a function your body was designed for and specialize in it; I wrote that alternate racial trait in SF1's Character Operations Manual. Contrast that to a lot of what's been going on in Pathfinder 2E where the design often feels like it goes out of its way to avoid legacy conversions, and this has me pretty excited.

I agree with some of the points that have been made about the conversion. Yeah, the system plays differently. My Starfinder 1E players can regularly take fights up to CR +4 with a lot of damage taken, but not too much difficulty, so the math is going to be pretty different there. And I definitely prefer everything about the PF1 Soldier to the PF2 Soldier we saw in the first Field Test, but the Developers have been pretty clear that their internal documents for the Playtest have changed substantially. I like the direction this team is going in, and I'm excited to see where they take Starfinder 2E.

This is far from real feedback, just a couple things that make me wonder a bit.

Androids not being able to survive in a vacuum does bring up some questions. Is it this way because it was too strong in sf1e? Being able to bypass a chunk of hazards or effects, not having to worry about environmental protections in a bunch of situations, etc? Is the decision partially to keep sf2e in line with pf2e? Personally being able to survive in a vacuum was, to me, so useful that it made android feel almost like the optimal choice in sf1e, which I didn't like. In my ideal world, in sf2e having an early level, cheap augment giving the ability to survive indefinitely in vacuum would be ideal, making and ancestry able to fit into sf2e much easier.

The other thing I wonder about is the ancestry option of having a hollowed out arm. It's very cool, but I hope in the end product that will be something anyone can get as an augment? Having that as an ancestry feat makes me worry it won't be an equipment option.

The whole, "Androids don't need to breathe" thing works fine in a game where everyone gets that blanket immunity via their armor. But honestly? That blanket immunity SUCKS like Thursty said several posts up. If you ask me, Armor is too important in Starfinder 1E; you basically have no ability to dodge or defend yourself against attacks on your own without it, and it literally renders entire chapters of the Core Rulebook into wastes of paper. Honestly, androids needing to breathe is fine in my opinion.

I do, however, think that both teams need to look at giving a better benefit than just, "You get +1 to saves against this specific thing that monsters with your trait are generally immune to!" I know that one of the Three Action System's mantras is that, "Every +1 is important!" but that doesn't change the fact that a +1 in a sea of +1s doesn't feel fun. I'd love to see it change to something like, "If you get a critical failure against a disease, you get a failure instead. If you get a success, you get a critical success instead." I think that would feel a lot more fun and impactful then a small numeric bonus, but that's just in my opinion.

I guess getting taking damage is going to let gas attacks penetrate armor for a round or something before the auto sealant kicks in if the devs are really this annoyed about it.

Looking forward to everyone getting the Deep Breath cantrip and just using whatever the equivalent of limited telepathy is to communicate so that straight breathing/suffocating concerns go away again.

I will say the SF1 rank 1 Life Bubble being so much more powerful than the (especially!) PF1 and PF2 equivalents was always pretty absurd, I won't miss that particular way out.

Gaulin wrote:

This is far from real feedback, just a couple things that make me wonder a bit.

Androids not being able to survive in a vacuum does bring up some questions. Is it this way because it was too strong in sf1e? Being able to bypass a chunk of hazards or effects, not having to worry about environmental protections in a bunch of situations, etc? Is the decision partially to keep sf2e in line with pf2e? Personally being able to survive in a vacuum was, to me, so useful that it made android feel almost like the optimal choice in sf1e, which I didn't like. In my ideal world, in sf2e having an early level, cheap augment giving the ability to survive indefinitely in vacuum would be ideal, making and ancestry able to fit into sf2e much easier.

The other thing I wonder about is the ancestry option of having a hollowed out arm. It's very cool, but I hope in the end product that will be something anyone can get as an augment? Having that as an ancestry feat makes me worry it won't be an equipment option.

The whole, "Androids don't need to breathe" thing works fine in a game where everyone gets that blanket immunity via their armor. But honestly? That blanket immunity SUCKS like Thursty said several posts up. If you ask me, Armor is too important in Starfinder 1E; you basically have no ability to dodge or defend yourself against attacks on your own without it, and it literally renders entire chapters of the Core Rulebook into wastes of paper. Honestly, androids needing to breathe is fine in my opinion.

I do, however, think that both teams need to look at giving a better benefit than just, "You get +1 to saves against this specific thing that monsters with your trait are generally immune to!" I know that one of the Three Action System's mantras is that, "Every +1 is important!" but that doesn't change the fact that a +1 in a sea of +1s doesn't feel fun. I'd love to see it change to something like, "If you get a critical failure against a disease, you get a failure instead. If you get a...

For sure. It's a tough spot to be in. I do hope that there are lot of options to safely be out in space, through suits, augments, or spells, but at the same time vacuum or other environmental hazards shouldn't be written off completely.

...and I see what your'e advocating for here, and it seems like it's calling for making ancestries even more bland than they already were. I mean, at the moment, ancestry differences are barely vague suggestions that are there to fill out the fantasy some. I guess i can understand the position of "I hate that biological differences are a thing and I want them to be less of a thing" but for me it's just stripping out even more of what could be making these characters interesting.

Except these aren't biological differences being discussed, these are primarily cultural. I simply desire more diversity in the cultural angle to not be highly restricted when I make a character.

Leon Aquilla wrote:

Driftbourne wrote:

But there is more to Starfinder than just a name change from Path to Star, and those differences matter to some of us.

I'm reserving judgment until I see the playtest, but at the moment I'm not convinced that they matter to the folks writing it either.

Please don't ascribe motive to the people writing this game; you don't know us or our motivations. We care deeply about Starfinder, and several of us were involved in writing for the original launch of SF1E. Our motives are clear in that we want Starfinder to be the strongest game offering it can be and to attract a large number of new players to keep the game viable.

To address the concern more directly, our team is absolutely intent on making Starfinder a game that can stand on its own. However, we're also dedicated to making Starfinder a game that is fully compatible with PF2E, because that will increase the overall viability and interest in the game and setting.

I just want to chime in and say that my table appreciates that heavily, the field tests so far have us extremely excited to mix them and everything we've seen looks great mechanically-- to have Tanuki Soldiers with Magitech rotolasers running around alongside Vesk-Nephilim Barbarians with flaming great axes and jetpacks, it looks like it's going to be amazing.

We're so excited I'm filling in major elements of the campaign world to be able to answer the question "ok, where do the spaceships come in" and revising certain expectations to make it all work together well, with encouragement from my players, who are looking forward to mixing and matching everything together... and separately doing some sci-fi specific stuff with it as well. A little work, due to different metagames or whatever is fine (I'm anticipating a need to add some more ranged to Pathfinder creatures, and making sure pathfinder PCs have better access to flight or whatever to match their counterparts in Starfinder.)

But we really like the course y'all are on right now on keeping it compatible, and it seems utterly unique in terms of what's being offered elsewhere in the space.

Like I would assume the SF2 version of the Stellifera would assume that the hydrobody is the default form for adventuring, but you could choose to leave for various reasons which would might you at a disadvantage outside of an aquatic environment. It's like how PF2 Anadi PCs are generally assumed to be in a form where they can take manipulate actions, even if it's possible (and indeed perhaps maximally comfortable) for them not to be.

In which case the Stellifera would just be a +Wis/+Cha/-Con ancestry with normal speeds and reach.

The Field Test was discussed during Paizo Live yesterday:

Androids having the ancestry setup we see right now doesn't seem to be as hard-locked to the PF2 version as it might seem. While I think that it is a good idea not to just create Androids 2.0, I also want to see what the SF2 team think would be more suitable for Starfinder. To that end, I think it would be a good idea to create variant ancestry stat blocks that GMs can allow a player to opt into.

Skittermanders weren't in the FT3 survey, because then it would have been a battle for second place. Fair enough XD. Also, shirren were very close to being in FT3, vesk had 24% and shirren 23% (or something like that). Humans were dead last, no surprise about that.

They showed a picture of a vesk with the borai (undead) versatile heritage (at about 01:07:30 in the stream). That's one angry boi!

The barathu sniper, wrapping their tentacles around the rifle, was a great picture as well (at about 01:09:00 in the vid).

Edit:

The vesk 20ft speed with no inherent way to ignore penalties is less of a problem in SF2, as you can just buy a jetpack (fair enough). And guns are primary, so many players will need to move less anyway.

It's kinda weird that Androids get Thievery with their lore feat, as they do in PF2. I suppose that is because of their history of having to escape slavery or similar circumstances?

Brutal Anatomy is cool. I'm really digging the claws, finally a reasonable unarmed attack that you don't have to jump through several hoops to get. And the jaws look like a direct downgrade, but then I...

Crafting and Thievery actually do still apply. One thing to keep in mind is that in the 2E system, Thievery is more than just pickpocketing and legerdemain. On the intellectual side, Thievery is about also about knowing about different locks and their equivalents (such as traps, obstructions, and even puzzles that cover mechanical, electronic, and magical mediums), and knowing how to breach or otherwise manipulate them, especially when you lack the key.

So an android's background in mechanics and technology would play well into this application. For example, using thievery to disable a device could be less manipulating it with Thieves' tools, and more giving it a knock in the right place, flashing a magnet over a certain space, or any other physical exploit to the system that simply works, which requires a good background knowledge in mechanics and electronics to accomplish, sometimes not even requiring dextrous hands. The android thus, with this knowledge, will just walk up to an locked actuating door in a space ship, and collectively have a good idea how the door is made, and how to breach the door without having to destroy it if they wanted to.

Basically you'd be looking at less of the thief side of Thievery, and more of the Trapsmith and Locksmith side of Thievery.

For a modern to futuristic context, look at The Lockpicking Lawyer, who applies Thievery to locks from both mechanical to technological.

Leon Aquilla wrote:

I'm not going to reply directly to this tone-policing but personally I don't think you can square the circle of "game that can stand on its own" and "100% compatible with Pathfinder 2e" without compromising something that will leave me saying "that's a great campaign setting splat, but it's missing what made Starfinder 1e unique".

Anyways, like I said, look forward to your playtest. Not really impressed by the SF hack for PF2e though. If that's all it is, I'll just keep my PF2e rules and use the SRD material.

That's not tone policing, that was just you being incredibly rude. As for the rest, well you can't please everyone I guess. Certainly not someone with that attitude...

Yeah why is he after verbally berating the same Paizo employee is he still around?

Also I'll make a controversial statement and say a lot of stuff in Starfinder 1e feels the same. It's just kind of boring mechanically.

Also I'll make a controversial statement and say a lot of stuff in Starfinder 1e feels the same. It's just kind of boring mechanically.

As far as being boring mechanically I certainly found many interesting uses for a wrench in Starfinder. On one mission, I even got to give a motivational speech on the use of wrenches to new members of the Starfinder Socity.

It does feel like there's a bit of an inherent conflict on the breathing thing even without getting to things like androids. It's a space game, so people need to be able to survive vacuum at low level, or else it doesn't feel like a space game. You can't survive vacuum if you need to breathe or have exposed skin. It's really hard to justify being affected by toxic gasses if you have no exposed skin and don't need to breathe it.

I like "being able to go for casual spacewalks without a space suit", and so my preferred solution is for "not breathing" to be cheap. If that means that toxic gas doesn't need to be breathed to work, or that toxic gasses just don't even get rules in SF2, those are compromises that let me do my fun character thing. Maybe some toxic gasses are archaic, and don't work around various protections.

But, because it's something that depends on how the armor rules are handling things, it'll be a lot more relevant to the full playtest than to the android sneak-peek.

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All the other stuff has me excited, and dang am I looking forward to new species more for SF2 because of the flexible customization! It's less pronounced with core ancestries, because the species versions had more alternates. Once we get to see things like barathu and the versatile heritages that didn't have the same support, and future books with even more ancestries? That'll be a really fun thing to look forward to in SF2 releases.

I definitely find the mention of "every product will have at least one new ancestry" interesting.

The whole toxic gas conversation also has this issue with it:

Isn't it also fun to have species which breath different gases than air and thus find air toxic and other gasses not toxic?

Like... Going for the "we can't have blanket immunity to gas!" basically says "everything in the galaxy is weak to same chemistry"

I definitely find the mention of "every product will have at least one new ancestry" interesting.

And having them have a tie-in to whatever publication they are in will be great for having a deeper understanding of how they fit in. I'm curious how many volumes of Interstellar Species we will end up getting.

On a side note:

One thing I find interesting is that some species could maybe have a heritage that could be used as a way to explore their past more. Veck seems like a culture that would have strong ties to past traditions.

Skittermanders should have a "helpful" heritage, maybe giving them a bonus to aid others.

Long-lived species might have some ancestry issues since their parents likely were directly affected by the Gap, which could lead to some interesting heritages.

I'm a bit concerned with shirren having ancestries. Heritage swarm component, would having playable swarm be a good idea. Doing so could turn your character into a pre-gen character with no options that the GM gets to run for you...

I am sure the developers of Starfinder 2E might have thought of this, but on the offchance they did not, I think I have a suggestion that I believe can smooth compatibility between Pathfinder and Starfinder while keeping meta specifications different.

We all know the Starfinder meta has a few different expectations. For example, due to the prominence of firearms, and going out into space, abilities that make it easier for you to fly or be in space, or really, any other misc. ability of a similar type, can safely be accessible at a lower level.

So I would like to suggest a simple modifier to the formatting of feats.

You know how entry titles go as: "Entry Name________Entry Level", (for example the Strix would have Fledgling Flight________Feat 5).

What if we adjusted only the problem feats to have a format such as "Entry Name________Entry Level (PF Level)" in Starfinder 2E, (so the same feat would read as: Fledgling Flight________Feat 1 [PF 5]). Thus, feats with no [PF Level] tab would have the same level between Pathfinder and Starfinder, while feats with a seperate Pathfinder and Starfinder Level will by default, be available at different times per game, additionally, a GM has the privilege of saying all players must use either the Pathfinder Level, or the Starfinder Level in a respective mixed game, depending on the intended tone.

Additionally, since the Strix and the Sprite are not in the PF2E Remaster, we can do the reverse for Pathfinder products, where Pathfinder versions of such problem feats can say "Entry Name________Entry Level (SF Level)", as Fledgling Flight________Feat 5 [SF 1]

As another suggestion, if the Starfinder Team wants flight to be unlocked, they can make a flight feat such as this (in the case of a Dragonkin or similar ancestry), these feats could additionally read as they would for pathfinder, but have an "Special" section that states that the starfinder version of the rules also automatically uses the automatic flight optional rule. That way when you take a Starfinder feat and convert it to Pathfinder, you just have to remove the automatic flight part of the rule (unless a PF2E GM chooses to keep it), and the feat still works without needing the GM to write a nerf.

So Fledgling Flight in the example, might also have the entry: "Special: Ancestries in Starfinder automatically use the Flying PCs optional rule, and this feat also grants you a 15-foot fly speed," or another similarly versed version of the same statement depending on the intended Starfinder balance, as Starfinder might just create it's own alternate version of the rule instead.

Just specifying that the feat would have one level in Starfinder, but another level in pathfinder, would likely assuage both GMs and players of these specific problem feats, as it would make for an easy conversion from one system to another on the GM side, while letting players feel they are getting the proper Starfinder benefits. To top it all off, your system of "Entry Name________Entry Level" is very versatile, that adding a small sub detail like a [PF Level] would rarely risk going over one text line, as entry names are rarely that long.

Well either way, if easy flight is accessible at level 1 just by buying jetpack, its kinda just given that ancestries with wings shouldn't wait until high levels to get permanent flight.

I do like the comment earlier about having generic ancestry feats to cut down on repeated feats (such as darkvision or flight) and just have a list of these generic feats with the level they are available to that particular ancestry.

I too feel that some of these feats don't seem to match the power level of SF vs PF, given the early flight expectations etc. It would have been nice to see one of the really strange ancestries rather than these two relatively normal ones, but ce la vie.

The whole toxic gas conversation also has this issue with it:

Isn't it also fun to have species which breath different gases than air and thus find air toxic and other gasses not toxic?

Like... Going for the "we can't have blanket immunity to gas!" basically says "everything in the galaxy is weak to same chemistry"

Considering the fact I know people who've worked on Starfinder no. No it is apparently not.

Not that they didn't enjoy the game but they definitely found the games imbalance hard to adjudicate fights for and this issue I remember being a thing.

It's the same thing as with undead PCs and immunity to negative/void damage. It sounds cool at first and is really cool a couple of times. But very quickly you run into the fundamental issue that in mixed parties, any encounter that has such elements is fundamentally different for the different players. One side largely checks out because they are not threatened, reducing engagement. The other gets all the attention once enemies realize they can actually hurt them, so for them the encounter is much, much harder. That's a clear lose-lose scenario.

At some point elements of realism have to take a backseat in favour of gameplay.

I think atmospheric threats (vacuum, thick/thin, gasses, smoke, etc) should be trivial in Starfinder. It's the far future, of course there would be readily available armour seals and/or reliable magic to counter atmospheric issues. Sure, "lol, Life Bubble wins dungeons" was a fun joke/meme for the first bit of Starfinder's existence, but once Paizo adventure creators got used to it, we stopped seeing encounters that were foiled by environmental seals (or, those threats were written cleverly to neutralize seals/Bubble, which is exactly what you'd expect modern threats would do; seal-piercing nanites, targeted dispel first, etc.) And that's fine. Honestly, has anyone ever heard the sentence "god, I miss gaseous threats being a big deal" at a Starfinder table? I know I sure haven't.

In short: easily overcoming atmospheric threats is another one of those "meta-states" things that Starfinder should keep. Just like sniper rifles make long-range encounters easier, and vehicles/starships make overland travel encounters easier, and universal translators make First Contact no-shared-languages encounters easier, and so on.

It's the far future, and this is another easy way Starfinder can differentiate itself. Let androids be breathless; it's fine. If that means there's a discrepancy between PF2's androids and SF2's androids, oh well. That's a (pretty easy) problem for GMs crossing the streams to solve. Or, heck, just say that Ancient heritage androids lack breathless, but other heritages don't.

(Maybe the edition chance is a good opportunity to introduce some downside to armour seals? Maybe the field that keeps out Bad Gasses also hinders mobility, and gives you a -1 Armour Check Penalty [is ACP still a thing in PF2?] or something. That could be interesting - like, imagine you're breaking into an AbadarCorp vault. What would you rather: be slightly more stealthy, or more impervious to gas attacks?)

Having to draft home ruled compatibility documents ourselves kind of defeats the purpose of making a game compatible.

Plus then we have to start dealing with THOSE players that are like, "No, the starfinder version is balanced, I should be allowed to use the Starfinder version. It's supposed to be compatible isn't it?" Feels like a repeat of those players that try to push questionably balanced 3rd party content on you insisting it's balanced enough.

Having to draft home ruled compatibility documents ourselves kind of defeats the purpose of making a game compatible.

It's ultimately the only way you can do it. What gets transferred and how will be so different from table to table that you can't make an "one size fits all" package on the dev side. Not to mention that some options are going to be literally impossible to balance. At most you can do a document with tons of recommendations what to do with certain options, e.g. flying ancestries in PF2 or that you should slightly beef up 6HP casters when making the transition to SF2.

What compatibility accomplishes is that the fundamental rules work together and the conversion process will be as quick and easy as possible. And that's all you can ask for imo.

Not to mention that some options are going to be literally impossible to balance.

That part I do agree. That's why I suggested making problem elements have a respective level, one for Pathfinder, and one for Starfinder, with a clear delineation. No need to make a list of what goes where, just a baseline, "We're using Pathfinder, versus we're using Starfinder" to determine common level availability.

But I think an android should be an android should be an android. In the end, even an Ancient android, is still an android that spawned from the Numerian ship, which was basically Starfinder tech. So there is no reason a Pathfinder Android would be less technologically advanced than a Starfinder Android, at least to the degree the androids of Androffa would not have such an ability. If anything, if Starfinder androids had, for example, the ability to breathe in a vacuum, Pathfinder ones should too in the Remaster version.

I'm all for seperating feats and stuff, but making two different race packages of core Ancestry Abilities is not what I would consider compatible. If you're messing with the Ancestry ABilities, which is for the most part core parts of the ancestry which should be universal, at that point you're making a new ancestry, like giving a human low-light vision by default would not be a human.

I think atmospheric threats (vacuum, thick/thin, gasses, smoke, etc) should be trivial in Starfinder. It's the far future, of course there would be readily available armour seals and/or reliable magic to counter atmospheric issues. Sure, "lol, Life Bubble wins dungeons" was a fun joke/meme for the first bit of Starfinder's existence, but once Paizo adventure creators got used to it, we stopped seeing encounters that were foiled by environmental seals (or, those threats were written cleverly to neutralize seals/Bubble, which is exactly what you'd expect modern threats would do; seal-piercing nanites, targeted dispel first, etc.) And that's fine. Honestly, has anyone ever heard the sentence "god, I miss gaseous threats being a big deal" at a Starfinder table? I know I sure haven't.

In short: easily overcoming atmospheric threats is another one of those "meta-states" things that Starfinder should keep. Just like sniper rifles make long-range encounters easier, and vehicles/starships make overland travel encounters easier, and universal translators make First Contact no-shared-languages encounters easier, and so on.

It's the far future, and this is another easy way Starfinder can differentiate itself. Let androids be breathless; it's fine. If that means there's a discrepancy between PF2's androids and SF2's androids, oh well. That's a (pretty easy) problem for GMs crossing the streams to solve. Or, heck, just say that Ancient heritage androids lack breathless, but other heritages don't.

(Maybe the edition chance is a good opportunity to introduce some downside to armour seals? Maybe the field that keeps out Bad Gasses also hinders mobility, and gives you a -1 Armour Check Penalty [is ACP still a thing in PF2?] or something. That could be interesting - like, imagine you're breaking into an AbadarCorp vault. What would you rather: be slightly more stealthy, or more impervious to gas attacks?)

This pretty much. Breathing related hazards should be trivial in starfinder to EVERYONE because of armor, because it allows the various species to be much more diverse than you could in pathfinder.

Having basic life support in your armor to allow for space adventures is fine. If anything, it is mandatory for such a setting.

But just eliminating all gas-based threats doesn't sound like a good idea to me. That would eliminate all gas grenades, a whole bunch of monster breath attacks, tons of options for traps (especially non-lethal ones and the classic "the room is slowly filling with gas" trope) and an entire delivery mechanism for weapons. I'm not particularly attached to the rest, but the gas grenades and traps are something I see no strong reason to eliminate.

That just creates the same situation as before, where authors really want those elements in their book and so they break they previously established rule with a plausible in-game explanation that nonetheless often causes discord in play. Better to not have that expectation in the first place.

Any immunity beyond the strictly necessary restricts adventure design, so I would need a much better reason to see that as worth it.

I feel like atmospheric hazards are something that should be eventually trivial in Starfinder, but you have to actually buy the item that solves the problem for it. The whole "the players encounter a problem, now they have the ability to buy something that avoids that problem in the future" is not a bad thing to have in your game, since it serves to train players to look at items that aren't just weapons and armor.

Like you can see this in PF2, since that game is different and flight is more valuable since most things want to fight in melee so the ability to stay out of range from your enemies is valuable. Eventually characters will be able to fly whenever they want, but fly as a spell is not available until 4th rank, and winged ancestries don't get reliable fly until level 9, but these thing have a cost. By the highest levels people can be flying all the time if they want at very little cost.

How atmospheric hazards work in Starfinder should work basically the same way. There is a range of levels where they should be absolutely no problem at all, there should be a level at which they are a problem that solving them has a cost, and there should be a level where they are actually a problem.

Like level 1 people probably can't afford the sorts of armor that let you walk around in a vacuum for as long as you want, level 1 people don't own very much at all. There should probably be levels where you can buy a mask that lets you survive the toxic gas, but the filter has to be changed regularly.

I'm excited for networked android, modded android, and the eventual SRO. I'm ready to be a ghost in the shell

I feel like atmospheric hazards are something that should be eventually trivial in Starfinder, but you have to actually buy the item that solves the problem for it. The whole "the players encounter a problem, now they have the ability to buy something that avoids that problem in the future" is not a bad thing to have in your game, since it serves to train players to look at items that aren't just weapons and armor.

Like you can see this in PF2, since that game is different and flight is more valuable since most things want to fight in melee so the ability to stay out of range from your enemies is valuable. Eventually characters will be able to fly whenever they want, but fly as a spell is not available until 4th rank, and winged ancestries don't get reliable fly until level 9, but these thing have a cost. By the highest levels people can be flying all the time if they want at very little cost.

How atmospheric hazards work in Starfinder should work basically the same way. There is a range of levels where they should be absolutely no problem at all, there should be a level at which they are a problem that solving them has a cost, and there should be a level where they are actually a problem.

Like level 1 people probably can't afford the sorts of armor that let you walk around in a vacuum for as long as you want, level 1 people don't own very much at all. There should probably be levels where you can buy a mask that lets you survive the toxic gas, but the filter has to be changed regularly.

This is a really good point. A space suit is still a space suit, and for a level 1 creature, a space suit might still be expensive. But looking at Starfinder suits, it seems to assume that all Starfinder armor has space protection.

I can see Paizo choosing to make this no longer the case, making space-walk grade suits more expensive and at a higher level (say level 3 or so), and assuming most Level 1 missions take place on terrestrial zones or in space stations instead. But I can see Starfinder players being justified in chafing at the thought, as it is a large departure from what they would be used to. Personally, I think it'd be the better approach to rip off the bandaid, and make it to where you need to be a higher level to afford such equipment, as having hazards trivialized by the lowest tier armor feels like it defeats the purpose of writing rules for such hazards in the first place, making such an endeavor a waste of time. Plus, I personally feel that wearing a space suit to your guard job on an earth-like planet in an adventure where you never need to leave that planet seems a bit... out of place. One would ask why they are paying extra for environmental protections if the suit is never expected to leave the atmosphere, and cheaper non-pressurized terrestrial military armor is just as effective.

I'm going to assume that if compatibility is the goal, Starfinder 2E will likely have a number crunch. Level 1 PCs will probably start with 150 credits (as 1 sp = 1 credit), fortified by the fact that the laser pistol went from 350 credits to 30.

Making a prediction, I would not be surprised if Level 0-1 armor was no longer environmentally protected, and was similar to modern day military gear, like battle dress uniform and ballistic plating, while the space-walk tier enclosed suits would sit at a higher level, having full environmental protections.

It'd be easy to justify such outfits being given at low levels, because the people that hired lower-level workers might provide the suit on loan for individual spacewalks. But an individual adventurer might have to wait until a higher level to be able to afford their own set.

I'm going to assume that if compatibility is the goal, Starfinder 2E will likely have a number crunch. Level 1 PCs will probably start with 150 credits (as 1 sp = 1 credit), fortified by the fact that the laser pistol went from 350 credits to 30.

The problem with that is Starfinder doesn't have a multi-level credit system (copper, silver, gold) things on the lower end would end up costing a fraction of a credit. Tracking credits is much easier than tracking copper, silver, and gold.

Also the price of an item in Starfinder would likely be worth more in Pathfinder. If I found a laser pistol on Mars and sold it on eBay I would expect to be rich. Likewise, if I dug up a 2000-year-old sword its value to a collector or museum would be much higher than buying a new sword. Unless your character time travels I think most items found between the 2 settings will likely be found items.

And if you time travel the value of a Starfinder credit on a credit stick in Pathfinder would be zero because there is no way to even transfer the credits. If you go from Pathfinder to Starfinder then you'll have to exchange your coins for credits or melt them down for UPBs.

Making a prediction, I would not be surprised if Level 0-1 armor was no longer environmentally protected, and was similar to modern day military gear, like battle dress uniform and ballistic plating, while the space-walk tier enclosed suits would sit at a higher level, having full environmental protections.

It'd be easy to justify such outfits being given at low levels, because the people that hired lower-level workers might provide the suit on loan for individual spacewalks. But an individual adventurer might have to wait until a higher level to be able to afford their own set.

It's assumed in Starfinder that the PCs have access to a spaceship at level one, so why wouldn't they have access to environmental protections at level one if going to space? In organized play, the PC has access to a ship from the Starfinder society, but in AP and homebrew games often the PCs are the owner of the ship they have at 1st level.

I'm all for the level of environmental protection your armor gives you is just basic environmental protection, and needs to be activated to apply. But it needs to be there so we can play species that don't breathe air or the other way around. On the other hand I don't think that beyond just serving in space, basic environmental protection is the same as having a dedicated space suite, or radiation protection or long-term cold or heat protection. Beyond basic environmental protection, Upgrades and higher-level armor, or dedicated environmental protection suites make sense.

In a Pathfinder setting anyone of any level having access to even 1st level Starfinder armor environmental protections would require a major plot reason that goes well beyond dealing with the cost of buying it.

The problem with that is Starfinder doesn't have a multi-level credit system (copper, silver, gold) things on the lower end would end up costing a fraction of a credit. Tracking credits is much easier than tracking copper, silver, and gold.

Also the price of an item in Starfinder would likely be worth more in Pathfinder. If I found a laser pistol on Mars and sold it on eBay I would expect to be rich. Likewise, if I dug up a 2000-year-old sword its value to a collector or museum would be much higher than buying a new sword. Unless your character time travels I think most items found between the 2 settings will likely be found items.

I agree, prices between items would likely be different between both systems. But even Pathfinder does that, where treasure-versions of normal weapons would cost more. But, mundane pathfinder items would be easier to acquire than you'd think. It might not be in vogue as the popular weapon of choice, but I find it hard to believe you would not find hobbyist companies that make and sell modern greatswords for 20 credits. They might not always be used by most adventurers, but if we followed that logic, we would not have craftsman making functional swords and armor today.

As for Starfinder items in Pathfinder, it's more difficult, but not impossible. Starfinder items are already available in Pathfinder, they are just rare, as you have to find a tradesman in particularly rare items from Numeria, or to go to Numeria yourself. Additionally, once you have interplanar travel capability, I find it hard to believe other aliens would not be visiting the major trade hubs of the inner and outer planes at the same time, Additionally, it is canon that countless civilized alien races already exist, and have even made contact with people on Golarion at this point, such as the Intellect Devourers, the Brain Collectors, Chyzaedu's, and so on and so forth, and it is possible to drop starfinder loot with them if you go to the innermost settlements potentially. You don't need time travel, just to know where to find a seller.

Old Mage Jatembe himself could reasonably have a plasma gattling gun sitting in the corner of his bedroom if he'd cared to pick one up by now. Not that he can't get one in the Lost Omens campaign setting, it's just he probably didn't care to. (And as a loosely related musing, Baba Yaga has probably seen Steamboat Willie as it first premiered on Earth last year in the Lost Omens campaign setting.)

Oh, and considering Mystics will be going up to Rank 10 magic, at least in their current draft, I am also pretty sure magic will be more prominent in Starfinder 2E than in Starfinder 1E. The Mystic alludes to Xenodruids as well, which I think can safely be assumed to just be a Druid mechanically, as it refers to the Animal, Elemental, and Plant Orders.

That Rank 10 casters aren't capable of making weapon runes is simply... Illogical.

I don't see why you would not be able to go to a Xenodruid of Erastil to get an enchanted bow to hunt wild aliens, where the bow would still be a valid weapon as such aliens would probably not have resistance to archaic weapons beyond normal resistances and immunities. (Though a space sheep deflecting a greatsword hit would be hilarious to imagine).