Witch, Witch, You’re a Remastered Witch

Xenocrat wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

No hex immunity confirmed. That is nice.

Mostly. A few, namely the arcane rune one, reportedly still have 1 minute immunity, cementing that patron in the basement.

Any particular reason for Discern Secrets to have been excluded or is it possibly a mistake?

Looking at the familiar ability Inscribed also gets, presumably spite.

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

No hex immunity confirmed. That is nice.

Mostly. A few, namely the arcane rune one, reportedly still have 1 minute immunity, cementing that patron in the basement.

Any particular reason for Discern Secrets to have been excluded or is it possibly a mistake?

Looking at the familiar ability Inscribed also gets, presumably spite.

They couldn't take the risk of witch being better than the wizard as an arcane prep caster so it got trash abilities.

So my guess is that people will pick up mostly Puppet just because it may be circumstantially usable at some point, but still use their actual focus points on actual good Focus powers rather than either of those two.

Hard disagree. I'll take Patron's Puppet because it's absolutely awesome and just pass on Basic Lesson that I find overall weak.

Familiars have a pair of blast feats based on your tradition. Arcane/primal is 6d6 slashing (scaling 2d6 at 9 and every two levels afterward) and immobilizes on a failed basic ref save. Divine/occult is the same amount of spirit damage but heals an ally for half the damage taken and is a will save. It's not the worst way to spend a focus point, given that it's free action damage and triggers your familiar ability. Resentment witch doing damage, minor healing and debuff extension for a free action at turn start is pretty loaded.

The blasts are on a 10 minute CD though so you'll only ever use it once a combat. There are others at a higher level but those are, quite frankly, not remotely worth taking.

I'm also assuming that Patron's Puppet would count as commanding your minion for the round. You wouldn't get to do it again manually in the same round.

Familiar's aren't that fast.

I missed that these feats had tradition requirements, I thought I could take both. Anyway, even one of them is excellent for this first round of the fight where I'll blast everything while laughing frantically (I'm a Witch after all).

Having Puppet doesnt change the blasting ability, it just gives 1 action for a focus point.

I find that hard to justify the expenditure of a full focus point that I could be using to do a stronger focus power instead.

You can still Cast+Blast+Extend on a single round even without Puppet, so, in the example given by SuperBidi for the "awesome turn 1", the only thing that the Focus point gave you was a free stride, which again, I don't think is worth a full focus point all by itself.

There might be a tiny amount of occasions where getting that 1 extra action is focus worthy, indeed, which is why I said that it can be circumstantial useful, but spending a focus point every fight for just a single free stride? I'm just not seeing it.

Furthermore, it being a Hex, means that using it to get the "free action" bars you from using a 1 action Hex, which are the goto 1 action fillers of a Witch. So you gained 1 action, but barred yourself from using yor strong 1 action abilities for that round, seems counterintuitive.

The witch may have went from bottom of the barrel to top tier. So much of this looks amazing. Now when I want to make a "wizard", I can make a witch or a sorcerer to feel powerful.

Having Puppet doesnt change the blasting ability, it just gives 1 action for a focus point.

I find that hard to justify the expenditure of a full focus point that I could be using to do a stronger focus power instead.

You can still Cast+Blast+Extend on a single round even without Puppet, so, in the example given by SuperBidi for the "awesome turn 1", the only thing that the Focus point gave you was a free stride, which again, I don't think is worth a full focus point all by itself.

There might be a tiny amount of occasions where getting that 1 extra action is focus worthy, indeed, which is why I said that it can be circumstantial useful, but spending a focus point every fight for just a single free stride? I'm just not seeing it.

Furthermore, it being a Hex, means that using it to get the "free action" bars you from using a 1 action Hex, which are the goto 1 action fillers of a Witch. So you gained 1 action, but barred yourself from using yor strong 1 action abilities for that round, seems counterintuitive.

The spirit familiar (1 action) + cast 2 action + sustain (1 action) combo only works if you have Cackle, which also costs a focus point but also a feat, or Effortless Concentration, which is a 14th level feat. Patron's Puppet feels pretty fine for a first level feature you only use when you need it.

Let's keep in mind that focus points aren't that precious anymore. Your witch should have 3 most combats, including ones that only last 1-3 rounds. And because you can only use one hex per turn and you're meant to sustain a single casting instead of recasting the same spell repeatedly, you'll often wind up with focus points left in shorter battles. If the spell lets you reposition the witch and/or familiar for a round and keep their powers going, it served its purpose.

Hexes aren't actually that strong, even in the remaster. I don't want to be casting any except life boost or elemental betrayal if the whole party is in on it. Maybe veil of dreams for the -1 status to attack rolls and will saves. Unfortunately, I just realized evil eye still does nothing on a successful save so it's back to being nearly unusable trash in my estimation.

So, with precious little worth using in combat, you may as well get some value if you've got nothing to sustain and still want to get your familiar effect off.

Hexes aren't actually that strong, even in the remaster. I don't want to be casting any except life boost or elemental betrayal if the whole party is in on it. Maybe veil of dreams for the -1 status to attack rolls and will saves. Unfortunately, I just realized evil eye still does nothing on a successful save so it's back to being nearly unusable trash in my estimation.

So, with precious little worth using in combat, you may as well get some value if you've got nothing to sustain and still want to get your familiar effect off.

Evil Eye is a one action cast that you can now use over and over and over again even if the target succeeds, next round he gets to try again. It makes it more flexible and useful in your action sequence. I think pretty far from trash. It's a free action ability with a quality effect if it lands given you don't have to sustain sicken. Sicken lasts until you spend an action to remove it.

Hexes aren't really fight winners on their own, but they are also only 1 action. Your slots should be the bulk of your contributions, while the hexes can provide some math extra damage or move rolls by a couple points.

I guess theoretically you could use use multiple hexes in subsequent rounds, since a certain amount of them stack. If you wanted a low cost way to tilt the odds in your party's favor, something like Nudge Fates and Veil of Dreams at the same time is something when you have a familiar ability in there too. But even that only costs you one focus point. I guess you could stack multiple damaging hexes on something, too.

You'll probably see a fair amount of psychic dips for the extra focus point and some of the juicier amps, but that seems like the optimal move for most characters these days.

Hexes aren't really fight winners on their own, but they are also only 1 action. Your slots should be the bulk of your contributions, while the hexes can provide some math extra damage or move rolls by a couple points.

I guess theoretically you could use use multiple hexes in subsequent rounds, since a certain amount of them stack. If you wanted a low cost way to tilt the odds in your party's favor, something like Nudge Fates and Veil of Dreams at the same time is something when you have a familiar ability in there too. But even that only costs you one focus point. I guess you could stack multiple damaging hexes on something, too.

It's weird, but I've never actually seen Nudge Fate pay off. My witch casts it every combat, but it's never had effect. But the new patron effect from casting or sustaining it (increasing or decreasing someone's AC by 1) looks like a nice little bonus.

Conversely, I've done a ridiculous amount of damage with Needle of Vengeance -- the damage looks too small to matter, but it adds up pretty quickly.

Guy who won't use Patron's Puppet because he's saving all his focus points to use Personal Blizzard three times per fight.

shroudb wrote:

Having Puppet doesnt change the blasting ability, it just gives 1 action for a focus point.

I find that hard to justify the expenditure of a full focus point that I could be using to do a stronger focus power instead.

You can still Cast+Blast+Extend on a single round even without Puppet, so, in the example given by SuperBidi for the "awesome turn 1", the only thing that the Focus point gave you was a free stride, which again, I don't think is worth a full focus point all by itself.

There might be a tiny amount of occasions where getting that 1 extra action is focus worthy, indeed, which is why I said that it can be circumstantial useful, but spending a focus point every fight for just a single free stride? I'm just not seeing it.

Furthermore, it being a Hex, means that using it to get the "free action" bars you from using a 1 action Hex, which are the goto 1 action fillers of a Witch. So you gained 1 action, but barred yourself from using yor strong 1 action abilities for that round, seems counterintuitive.

The spirit familiar (1 action) + cast 2 action + sustain (1 action) combo only works if you have Cackle, which also costs a focus point but also a feat, or Effortless Concentration, which is a 14th level feat. Patron's Puppet feels pretty fine for a first level feature you only use when you need it.

Let's keep in mind that focus points aren't that precious anymore. Your witch should have 3 most combats, including ones that only last 1-3 rounds. And because you can only use one hex per turn and you're meant to sustain a single casting instead of recasting the same spell repeatedly, you'll often wind up with focus points left in shorter battles. If the spell lets you reposition the witch and/or familiar for a round and keep their powers going, it served its purpose.

which is my definition of circumstantial.

if i had the option, i would always go for a stronger option for my focus points, but as I initially said, the reason people will (probably, and imo) pick it is because it offers that circumstantial ability to be useful sometimes (unlike the terrible reaction instead of it which does almost nothing for its cost), NOT because it enables some sort of core rotation that you can't do without and is so powerful.

Guy who won't use Patron's Puppet because he's saving all his focus points to use Personal Blizzard three times per fight.

Funny enough, snow patron's hex is a (rank)d4 ref save cantrip. Press it every turn for easy damage. Pity the patron ability is just a burst of difficult terrain around the familiar.

Having Puppet doesnt change the blasting ability, it just gives 1 action for a focus point.

I find that hard to justify the expenditure of a full focus point that I could be using to do a stronger focus power instead.

You can still Cast+Blast+Extend on a single round even without Puppet, so, in the example given by SuperBidi for the "awesome turn 1", the only thing that the Focus point gave you was a free stride, which again, I don't think is worth a full focus point all by itself.

There might be a tiny amount of occasions where getting that 1 extra action is focus worthy, indeed, which is why I said that it can be circumstantial useful, but spending a focus point every fight for just a single free stride? I'm just not seeing it.

Furthermore, it being a Hex, means that using it to get the "free action" bars you from using a 1 action Hex, which are the goto 1 action fillers of a Witch. So you gained 1 action, but barred yourself from using yor strong 1 action abilities for that round, seems counterintuitive.

I think that, as usual, we will have to agree to disagree. I find an extra action more powerful than a good third action. I won't actually take any Focus Power with my Witch (I could consider Psychic Dedication for Amp Guidance as I don't have any use of my reaction, but I don't really have the available feat) so I'll use it nearly every fight, which doesn't make it circumstantial to me.

With the way focus points work, circumstantial but useful is exactly where you want your second or third focus spell to be. Admittedly, witches start with a circumstantial focus spell already, but still.

So, Resentment patron. That familiar ability reads like 1e cackle nonsense, "oh hey you saved against my debuff. That didn't matter, you're never escaping anyways". Like, Slow is just insane with that, right? Anything other than a critical success on a save and you steal an action for the rest of the fight. Similar for basically any other debuffing spell that does 1 round on a success or longer on failures.

So, Resentment patron. That familiar ability reads like 1e cackle nonsense, "oh hey you saved against my debuff. That didn't matter, you're never escaping anyways". Like, Slow is just insane with that, right? Anything other than a critical success on a save and you steal an action for the rest of the fight. Similar for basically any other debuffing spell that does 1 round on a success or longer on failures.

Approximately, yes.

Is there a problem with that?

So, Resentment patron. That familiar ability reads like 1e cackle nonsense, "oh hey you saved against my debuff. That didn't matter, you're never escaping anyways". Like, Slow is just insane with that, right? Anything other than a critical success on a save and you steal an action for the rest of the fight. Similar for basically any other debuffing spell that does 1 round on a success or longer on failures.

Yes. The evil eye witch is very scary again.

Has to have something to compete with Dirge of Doom and Inspire Courage.

So, Resentment patron. That familiar ability reads like 1e cackle nonsense, "oh hey you saved against my debuff. That didn't matter, you're never escaping anyways". Like, Slow is just insane with that, right? Anything other than a critical success on a save and you steal an action for the rest of the fight. Similar for basically any other debuffing spell that does 1 round on a success or longer on failures.

My big 3 are slowed 1 off of whatever, clumsy 3 off of synesthesia and blinded off of phantasmal doorknob. Blinded especially should be comical to extend throughout a fight after setting up the local fighter.

Dubious Scholar wrote:

So, Resentment patron. That familiar ability reads like 1e cackle nonsense, "oh hey you saved against my debuff. That didn't matter, you're never escaping anyways". Like, Slow is just insane with that, right? Anything other than a critical success on a save and you steal an action for the rest of the fight. Similar for basically any other debuffing spell that does 1 round on a success or longer on failures.

Approximately, yes.

Is there a problem with that?

Not explicitly, but it is kind of wild putting basically no limits debuff extension next to 'scent until the start of your next turn' and 'your familiar can flank' as ostensibly comparable abilities.

Dubious Scholar wrote:

So, Resentment patron. That familiar ability reads like 1e cackle nonsense, "oh hey you saved against my debuff. That didn't matter, you're never escaping anyways". Like, Slow is just insane with that, right? Anything other than a critical success on a save and you steal an action for the rest of the fight. Similar for basically any other debuffing spell that does 1 round on a success or longer on failures.

Approximately, yes.

Is there a problem with that?

No. This makes me cackle with glee. I see nothing wrong with being able to build a witch around slowly piling up more and more debuffs on a target as the martials beat it down, it really captures one of the core concepts.

As a balance question... it seems fine to me anyways since it doesn't really increase the ceiling for debuffs so much as make it easier to get there. Well, in a vacuum. I won't deny it's one of the stronger such abilities. (It is, however, clearly specialized towards single strong opponents - it's a lot less potent on multiple targets, though it can still shore up AoE debuffs)

Witch has a nice power build now. I like it. Every class needs at least one power build.

'your familiar can flank' as ostensibly comparable abilities.

Yes, that one in particular does seem a bit below the baseline still.

I may need to consider that when updating myself to the new rules.

I feel like the strength of the witch has become so much more tied into the question "how fast will the DM kill the familiar each adventuring day", at least for the strong familiar abilities, for stuff like a 5 foot burst of difficult terrain that's less so

I feel like the strength of the witch has become so much more tied into the question "how fast will the DM kill the familiar each adventuring day", at least for the strong familiar abilities, for stuff like a 5 foot burst of difficult terrain that's less so

Depending on interpretation of the familiar ability to be a tattoo or otherwise inconspicuous and whether that impacts them using those abilities.

Karneios wrote:

I feel like the strength of the witch has become so much more tied into the question "how fast will the DM kill the familiar each adventuring day", at least for the strong familiar abilities, for stuff like a 5 foot burst of difficult terrain that's less so

Depending on interpretation of the familiar ability to be a tattoo or otherwise inconspicuous and whether that impacts them using those abilities.

for tattoo with the assumption that it does work that does mean you're a witch within 15ft of the enemy making it a riskier plan

I want to figure out how to make a witch who is 15' from danger who does not die instantly.

I want to figure out how to make a witch who is 15' from danger who does not die instantly.

Fervor Witch here. I do that.

I want to figure out how to make a witch who is 15' from danger who does not die instantly.

That's easy. Have juicier target(s) 5-10 feet away.

A party working together should manage it, save for the occasional devastating area effect.

Not explicitly, but it is kind of wild putting basically no limits debuff extension next to 'scent until the start of your next turn' and 'your familiar can flank' as ostensibly comparable abilities.

I also somewhat suspect that the Patrons are not completely balanced against each other in a vacuum, but also have some balance considerations of what they are competing against for spellcasters in their same tradition.

So Occult tradition Witch is not just competing against other Witch Patrons, but is competing against Bard and Psychic.

While Arcane tradition Witch is competing against other Witch patrons, and competing against Wizard instead.

Squiggit wrote:

Not explicitly, but it is kind of wild putting basically no limits debuff extension next to 'scent until the start of your next turn' and 'your familiar can flank' as ostensibly comparable abilities.

I also somewhat suspect that the Patrons are not completely balanced against each other in a vacuum, but also have some balance considerations of what they are competing against for spellcasters in their same tradition.

So Occult tradition Witch is not just competing against other Witch Patrons, but is competing against Bard and Psychic.

While Arcane tradition Witch is competing against other Witch patrons, and competing against Wizard instead.

That seems a weird way to balance things. It would meant paizo thinks the wizard is very weak compared to a psychic or bard.

Also, the arcane sorcerer bloodlines don't have similar low power budgets (and neither do arcane summoners).

I want to figure out how to make a witch who is 15' from danger who does not die instantly.

I take a lot of "you really don't want to hit me" spells.

Like Blood Vendetta and Needle of Vengeance.

But also False Life, Blur, and Sanctuary (yes, multi-classed cleric) to avoid damage.

I want to figure out how to make a witch who is 15' from danger who does not die instantly.

Human Witch can have scaling heavy armor by level 3 without spending a single class feat on it!

Ok, probably not worth the investment, but seriously, getting the armor proficiency general feat at least once for a cheap +1/+2 AC is definitely something I would consider as a remaster caster. You could leave your Dex at 16 or 18 and invest the boosts you saved into another mental attribute so you can multiclass and make better use of your universal spellcasting proficiency.

I want to figure out how to make a witch who is 15' from danger who does not die instantly.

Only needs to be your familiar within 15ft.

Not explicitly, but it is kind of wild putting basically no limits debuff extension next to 'scent until the start of your next turn' and 'your familiar can flank' as ostensibly comparable abilities.

I'd not criticize the Wild Witch, their ability is absolutely excellent while dungeon delving.

Also, if it's ok for a boss to fail a save against Slow then it's ok for a Resentment Witch to get the same effect near automatically but with a higher action cost. I don't see any balancing issue in here. But definitely, the Resentment Witch will become a nasty boss killer.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I want to figure out how to make a witch who is 15' from danger who does not die instantly.

Only needs to be your familiar within 15ft.

At 7hp per level with tough and matching your AC they're surprisingly durable as long as you cap your AC like you should be doing. Maybe throw a psi amped shield on it and use cackle to both trigger resentment and keep it protected with your reaction. And if they're close to dying just pop them with a final sacrifice or give them lifelink to use your (likely unused) hp as a resource. Survival shouldn't be an issue post the early levels where you have nothing to extend anyway.

Tempest Surge is a thing, and probably a more common thing now that clerics can use full spell casting proficiency with it. I feel like there's a slot spell which inflicts clumsy at low levels but I can't remember what it is.

Befuddle?

Eoran wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

So, Resentment patron. That familiar ability reads like 1e cackle nonsense, "oh hey you saved against my debuff. That didn't matter, you're never escaping anyways". Like, Slow is just insane with that, right? Anything other than a critical success on a save and you steal an action for the rest of the fight. Similar for basically any other debuffing spell that does 1 round on a success or longer on failures.

Approximately, yes.

Is there a problem with that?

No. This makes me cackle with glee. I see nothing wrong with being able to build a witch around slowly piling up more and more debuffs on a target as the martials beat it down, it really captures one of the core concepts.

People mentioned there's a day one errata for the remaster. Maybe it's too early to celebrate. You just wait... a day.

We've been running with a Resentment witch since we got the PDFs, 3-4 days a week, and the problem so far is that the balance for it being so powerful is blasting the familiar out of the sky as quickly as possible before there are there are too many debuffs on a particular monster, but that's leading the witch player to feel targeted. The argument for the Resentment familiar being so strong has been "well, magical effects are obvious and familiars are pretty fragile, so a reasonably intelligent creature can kill it or have their allies kill it." I try to let it shine by not having the familiar get killed, but 7/10 fights with anything other than a swarm of -3-4 level enemies starts with the familiar getting killed in the fist two turns. I do feel bad, but the response to Resentment being so strong has just been "lol just kill it."

We've been running with a Resentment witch since we got the PDFs, 3-4 days a week, and the problem so far is that the balance for it being so powerful is blasting the familiar out of the sky as quickly as possible before there are there are too many debuffs on a particular monster, but that's leading the witch player to feel targeted. The argument for the Resentment familiar being so strong has been "well, magical effects are obvious and familiars are pretty fragile, so a reasonably intelligent creature can kill it or have their allies kill it." I try to let it shine by not having the familiar get killed, but 7/10 fights with anything other than a swarm of -3-4 level enemies starts with the familiar getting killed in the fist two turns. I do feel bad, but the response to Resentment being so strong has just been "lol just kill it."

Sounds like the "Resentment familiar" is well-named.

We've been running with a Resentment witch since we got the PDFs, 3-4 days a week, and the problem so far is that the balance for it being so powerful is blasting the familiar out of the sky as quickly as possible before there are there are too many debuffs on a particular monster, but that's leading the witch player to feel targeted. The argument for the Resentment familiar being so strong has been "well, magical effects are obvious and familiars are pretty fragile, so a reasonably intelligent creature can kill it or have their allies kill it." I try to let it shine by not having the familiar get killed, but 7/10 fights with anything other than a swarm of -3-4 level enemies starts with the familiar getting killed in the fist two turns. I do feel bad, but the response to Resentment being so strong has just been "lol just kill it."

I guess Witches will have different tactics based on their Familiar's power / likelihood to be targeted.

Seeing the new level 1 warrior muse bard feat does make me think if the resentment ability should just be once per cast of the source of the condition in the same way (as an alternate thing to put in to balance the ability more than kill the familiar when you can)

Karneios wrote:

I feel like the strength of the witch has become so much more tied into the question "how fast will the DM kill the familiar each adventuring day", at least for the strong familiar abilities, for stuff like a 5 foot burst of difficult terrain that's less so

Depending on interpretation of the familiar ability to be a tattoo or otherwise inconspicuous and whether that impacts them using those abilities.

The premaster Tattoo Transformation familiar ability doesn't allow it to act while in tattoo form and requires 1 minute to transform back and forth between tattoo safety and embodied usefuleness.

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Karneios wrote:

I feel like the strength of the witch has become so much more tied into the question "how fast will the DM kill the familiar each adventuring day", at least for the strong familiar abilities, for stuff like a 5 foot burst of difficult terrain that's less so

Depending on interpretation of the familiar ability to be a tattoo or otherwise inconspicuous and whether that impacts them using those abilities.

The premaster Tattoo Transformation familiar ability doesn't allow it to act while in tattoo form and requires 1 minute to transform back and forth between tattoo safety and embodied usefuleness.

The Familiar Ability section only mentions positioning/distance as a factor, being within 15', and the choices are made are by the witch. As such, a knocked out or tattoo familiar fulfils the requirements as well as one sitting on your shoulder. As long as the tattoo is within 15', by RAW it should work. As some see this as a loophole, they are expecting pushback and houseruled solution [or errata] to 'fix' it.

The Familiar Ability section only mentions positioning/distance as a factor, being within 15', and the choices are made are by the witch. As such, a knocked out or tattoo familiar fulfils the requirements as well as one sitting on your shoulder. As long as the tattoo is within 15', by RAW it should work. As some see this as a loophole, they are expecting pushback and houseruled solution [or errata] to 'fix' it.

"When you Cast or Sustain a hex, your familiar can curse a creature within 15 feet of it"

It seems very much active to me. The Familiar needs to be able to act to "curse a creature".

Strictly speaking, because minions don't have reactions in the first place and can't act except on your turn, the rule seems to be worded in such a way as to allow it to happen even off a phase familiar reaction by just not interacting at all with action rules. Sure, logic dictates that the familiar should need to be able to act, but the rules were written specifically to sidestep at least one restriction on familiars acting, so why not push it further?