Witch, Witch, You’re a Remastered Witch

Has anyone received their PDFs yet who would like to cast some light on the Witch for us?

Has anyone received their PDFs yet who would like to cast some light on the Witch for us?

There is a youtube preview about the Witch linked in the Youtubers Remaster previews thread.

Prince Setehrael wrote:

Has anyone received their PDFs yet who would like to cast some light on the Witch for us?

There is a youtube preview about the Witch linked in the Youtubers Remaster previews thread.

Ah Marvelous!

Looking over the changes, witch is STRONG now.

Patron's puppet, patron's claim, patron's presence, stitch familiar/spirit familiar, cackle, and the upgraded patron rules that give you a benefit when you sustain/cast a hex means that at higher level it has nightmarish action economy to deal with. Plus ceremonial knife means it gets more spell slots than you might expect.

I find myself quite pleased and quite willing to play one sometime in the future.

Sigh, looks like witches armaments doesn't have the bit eldritch nails had about putting runes directly on your body anymore. I loved that about it, was unique and flavorful, runes becoming part of your character.

Sigh, looks like witches armaments doesn't have the bit eldritch nails had about putting runes directly on your body anymore. I loved that about it, was unique and flavorful, runes becoming part of your character.

You can style your Handwraps this way and they apply to all your natural attacks.

Really that bit was odd and created strange rules interactions.

Hope this is not seen as spamming, but answers, hopefully fun-provoking, about the nature and capabilities of familiars - for my part particularly concerning exploration (cp. Question in sibling thread) - are of particular importance for all witches.

If someone knows more, your contribution is greatly appreciated. (It might even play a part in settling years of dispute. ;-))

Are witch's armaments... actually worth using now? I feel like under the old witch, those feats were basically never actually worth taking. Has that changed?

Did the Witch chassis change?

Armor?

Did the Witch chassis change?

Armor?

Nope.

Don't think the chassis is changing. Familiar abilities, hexes, and feats mostly, from what I've heard.

Sanity, we know the armaments get an upgrade. I'm not sure what that upgrade is.

But I really stopped by this thread to say hey Paizo! No Halloween Paizo Blog article on the Witch? Booooo. Booooo-ooooo! ;)

Are witch's armaments... actually worth using now? I feel like under the old witch, those feats were basically never actually worth taking. Has that changed?

I still see them as being more of a thematic choice - or something that is used sparingly. Not something that you would build the entire character concept around.

But with the change to how Armor Proficiency general feat scales, melee attacks aren't the worst idea. Basically, when an enemy charges past the front lines and attacks the Witch, the Witch can retaliate with one melee attack before spending their next two actions retreating/sustaining/whatever else.

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Are witch's armaments... actually worth using now? I feel like under the old witch, those feats were basically never actually worth taking. Has that changed?

I still see them as being more of a thematic choice - or something that is used sparingly. Not something that you would build the entire character concept around.

But with the change to how Armor Proficiency general feat scales, melee attacks aren't the worst idea. Basically, when an enemy charges past the front lines and attacks the Witch, the Witch can retaliate with one melee attack before spending their next two actions retreating/sustaining/whatever else.

Yeah, there's a few interesting things about a melee witch build now. A lot of upgraded hexes plus familiar abilities can make you a pseudo bard, stacking multiple buffs or debuffs on a specify enemy and/or ally, including yourself. And of course each spell list has unique buffs you can apply. I think turning a familiar into a tattoo can be a viable strategy for a melee witch, unless they want to use the Inscribed One flanking or have the familiar sponge some damage.

Keeping an enemy permanently frightened 1 and having everything being concealed to it is a pretty defensive measure, for example, especially if you use stealth hide at the end of the round.

The actual armaments themselves feel weaker than I would have hoped, especially given I only spotted finesse on the hair. Needing to take the feat multiple times to get each option is also disappointing. But I think maybe you could use ancestry unarmed attacks for damage and your armaments for landing sympathetic strikes instead.

Thematically, I also really like the shadow tattoo melee combo because the idea of this blurry witch having a tattoo that is secretly messing with your head while she simultaneously attacks you body, mind, and soul is a really fun picture.

Ya, Witch’s Armaments in and of itself doesn’t look like a great feat. But when looked at the Witch as a whole, you can see where it fits in.

I really like that Starless Shadow concept you shared. I didn’t think of that.

I’ve started a Wilding Steward and the “gishy” stuff works beautifully for a bestial/wild kind of Witch that is different from the norm. I kinda love how the Wilding Steward actually has a lot of different directions it can go.

It’s that kind of versatility and diversity that I want from all classes, ever since we’ve seen Thaumaturge and Kineticist. I’m really glad Paizo is loosening up to that.

I think there’s still some more tweaking to do, but overall it has felt a lot more fun.

What is this about tattoo familiar? Did I miss something? Does it only apply to the witch?

What is this about tattoo familiar? Did I miss something? Does it only apply to the witch?

There's a familiar ability which used to be tattoo familiar but has been renamed and broadened to allow flavors other than tattoo. It lets your familiar exist on your body, but it is immune to AoE and can only be targeted if creatures know it is a a separate creature, allowing allies to heal it.

My read is that because the familiar can still be effected as a tattoo, the patron specific abilities (which require certain proximity) can be used too. I'd expect some table variation there, but it lets you keep the familiar safe at the risk of your own skin, and I think enables some cool concepts like the aforementioned shadow melee witch and lets you focus on master centric abilities like the extra cantrip or focus point.

Did they remove or change the language that the familiar can’t act except to change to/from?

Because some of the master abilities get locked out by that clause. My understanding from what folks have said about patron familiar abilities (the general mechanic, not the specific unique ones) is that it doesn’t really specify the need for the familiar to be able to act or use action.

So, those effects would still go off and would also mean the Sanctuary spell shouldn’t break from the Occult familiar abilities (Ongoing Misery, Balanced Luck, and Night Stalker).

So if they cleared the language for that, it should allow some more tools to keep the familiar safe and to stay functional.

Still says "When transformed, the familiar can’t act except to turn back into a familiar."

And my read is that the familiar is not activating these abilities-- the patron is, and the familiar is just a relay. There's a lot of stuff in here suggesting that's basically the function of the familiar now.

In other overly generous interpretations, you still refocus by "communing" with your familiar, but I'm not actually sure the physical body of the familiar needs to be alive for that, as you can commune with spirits in Pathfinder. I'll throw it out there as a ruling to consider for GMs who feel bad about familiars dying-- the new witch loses a lot of their power budget for the day without taking away their focus points too.

Witch Armaments is striking in how conservative it is. The feat is written so cautiously like it isn't being designed for a class that wants to be as far away from martial combat as possible. Feats that are so incongruous with a class should be a little bit above the curve, but this was written like someone was really worried about how it could wreck the game.

... Resentment almost feels like they forgot to finish remastering it.

Witch Armaments is striking in how conservative it is. The feat is written so cautiously like it isn't being designed for a class that wants to be as far away from martial combat as possible. Feats that are so incongruous with a class should be a little bit above the curve, but this was written like someone was really worried about how it could wreck the game.

I'm hoping the loss of reach from hair is a mistake at least.

Anybody with the book already able to speak on possible phrasing updates to the Witch Archetype as it relates to the Familiar, the number of Abilities it grants and if it revives the next day?

Anybody with the book already able to speak on possible phrasing updates to the Witch Archetype as it relates to the Familiar, the number of Abilities it grants and if it revives the next day?

Don't have the books but apparently it gets 2 abilities and one more if you take basic withcraft.

No mention of reviving as far as I've heard.

Themetricsystem wrote:

Anybody with the book already able to speak on possible phrasing updates to the Witch Archetype as it relates to the Familiar, the number of Abilities it grants and if it revives the next day?

Don't have the books but apparently it gets 2 abilities and one more if you take basic withcraft.

No mention of reviving as far as I've heard.

If your familiar dies, your patron replaces it during your next daily preparations.

- Need not be the same familiar
- Does not impact spells known or prepared

For the Witch Archetype familiar revival, I am holding out hope that the wording makes it clear that it is a Witch Familiar with the standard benefits of being a Witch Familiar unless overridden - like every other class in the game that gives a limited version of a class feature in their archetype.

The ruling from YouTube that the Witch Familiar was a normal familiar in every way with the additional override of only having one familiar ability was a questionable ruling to begin with.

Blave wrote:

Themetricsystem wrote:

Anybody with the book already able to speak on possible phrasing updates to the Witch Archetype as it relates to the Familiar, the number of Abilities it grants and if it revives the next day?

Don't have the books but apparently it gets 2 abilities and one more if you take basic withcraft.

No mention of reviving as far as I've heard.

If your familiar dies, your patron replaces it during your next daily preparations.

- Need not be the same familiar
- Does not impact spells known or prepared

So my archetyped witch can finally use Final Sacrifice with impunity?! Doubly so with the death of the Evil trait?!?!

I did not see a change in the status quo for archetype familiars beyond getting another ability. Take that as you will.

So my archetyped witch can finally use Final Sacrifice with impunity?! Doubly so with the death of the Evil trait?!?!

Full class Witches can. Assuming that the Patron agreement allows for it. Meaning check with your GM first before trying it. Crippling all Witch Archetype characters because of the potential of abuse from a theoretical build seems unjustified.

Is Wilding Word the same except now it affects humanoids now?

Is Wilding Word the same except now it affects humanoids now?

IIRC it affects everybody. The original targets (animal, fungus and plant) take a -1 circumstance penalty to their save.

Blave wrote:

Themetricsystem wrote:

Anybody with the book already able to speak on possible phrasing updates to the Witch Archetype as it relates to the Familiar, the number of Abilities it grants and if it revives the next day?

Don't have the books but apparently it gets 2 abilities and one more if you take basic withcraft.

No mention of reviving as far as I've heard.

If your familiar dies, your patron replaces it during your next daily preparations.

- Need not be the same familiar
- Does not impact spells known or prepared

Apologies. I did not realize you were asking about the archetype. My previous answer was regarding a normal witch.

Here is a relevant excerpt from the Witch Dedication:
Choose a patron; you gain a familiar with two common cantrips of your choice from your chosen patron’s tradition, but aside from the tradition, you don’t gain any other effects the patron would usually grant. Your familiar gains the normal number of abilities for a familiar instead of those a witch familiar normally gets.

It looks to me like you get a witch's familiar, albeit one with a standard familiar's number of abilities. Whether or not the familiar's Undying ability (which is what brings it back) is included as part of a patron's tradition, seems debatable to me. Personally, I think not, as it's listed independently of the Patron Traditions. This leads me to believe that witch dedication familiars return each day, though there's plenty of room for disagreement.

EDIT: As they are in the same section, I don't see how a person could argue that a Dedicated Witch familiar doesn't get Undying without also stating that they lose out on Learning Spells. This further leads me to believe that Dedicated Witches DO get familiars with Spells, Learning Spells, and Undying. They simply don't function otherwise.

Two things: 1) You can prepare 2 cantrips instead of 1 cantrip now? That’s nice. The argument before was you have to use that 1 familiar ability for Cantrip Connection. Glad they changed that!

2) Oh, is the familiar revival now officially a familiar ability called Undying? That’s an interesting way to do it!

Two things: 1) You can prepare 2 cantrips instead of 1 cantrip now? That’s nice. The argument before was you have to use that 1 familiar ability for Cantrip Connection. Glad they changed that!

2) Oh, is the familiar revival now officially a familiar ability called Undying? That’s an interesting way to do it!

You're saying there's a familiar ability to revive at daily preparations?

Here is a relevant excerpt from the Witch Dedication:

Choose a patron; you gain a familiar with two common cantrips of your choice from your chosen patron’s tradition, but aside from the tradition, you don’t gain any other effects the patron would usually grant. Your familiar gains the normal number of abilities for a familiar instead of those a witch familiar normally gets.

Yeah, that sounds to me like you get a Witch familiar with an adjusted number of abilities, but everything else.

And you also get a Patron but with only the tradition, trained skill, and two cantrips known.

As they are in the same section, I don't see how a person could argue that a Dedicated Witch familiar doesn't get Undying without also stating that they lose out on Learning Spells. This further leads me to believe that Dedicated Witches DO get familiars with Spells, Learning Spells, and Undying. They simply don't function otherwise.

That has been my logic from the beginning, but many people still prefer to believe YouTube instead.

You're saying there's a familiar ability to revive at daily preparations?

My apologies, I was asking if they formalized it as a separate section in the Witch class feature or if it was formalized as a Witch only familiar ability (like their patron familiar abilities).

Tunu40 wrote:

Two things: 1) You can prepare 2 cantrips instead of 1 cantrip now? That’s nice. The argument before was you have to use that 1 familiar ability for Cantrip Connection. Glad they changed that!

2) Oh, is the familiar revival now officially a familiar ability called Undying? That’s an interesting way to do it!

You're saying there's a familiar ability to revive at daily preparations?

Now that would be an interesting way of doing it.

A standard familiar ability available only to Witch (and Witch Archetype) characters. You can still have your familiar revive the next morning if it dies, but it costs you a familiar ability for the privilege. In both cases.

Undying is a specific witch familiar ability, not a general ability available to other familiars.

Two things: 1) You can prepare 2 cantrips instead of 1 cantrip now? That’s nice. The argument before was you have to use that 1 familiar ability for Cantrip Connection. Glad they changed that!

No, you learn two cantrips but you can explicitly only prepare one with the dedication.

WWHsmackdown wrote:

You're saying there's a familiar ability to revive at daily preparations?

My apologies, I was asking if they formalized it as a separate section in the Witch class feature or if it was formalized as a Witch only familiar ability (like their patron familiar abilities).

Undying is a subheading in the familiar class feature for witches.

WWHsmackdown wrote:

You're saying there's a familiar ability to revive at daily preparations?

My apologies, I was asking if they formalized it as a separate section in the Witch class feature or if it was formalized as a Witch only familiar ability (like their patron familiar abilities).

It is an ability given to all witch familiars.

It is not one of the familiar abilities that you get to select from.

Two things: 1) You can prepare 2 cantrips instead of 1 cantrip now? That’s nice. The argument before was you have to use that 1 familiar ability for Cantrip Connection. Glad they changed that!

No, your familiar *knows* two cantrips, but you can only prepare one.

You cast spells like a witch. Choose a patron; you gain a familiar with two common cantrips of your choice from yourchosen patron’s tradition, but aside from the tradition, you don’t gain any other effects the patron would usually grant. Your familiar gains the normal number of abilities for a familiar instead of those a witch familiar normally gets. (See page 212 for more on familiars.)

You gain the Cast a Spell activity. You can prepare one cantrip each day from your familiar. You’re trained in the spell attack modifier and spell DC statistics. Your key spellcasting attribute for witch archetype spells is Intelligence, and they are witch spells of your patron’s tradition. You become trained in the skill associated with the patron’s tradition; if you were already trained in it, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice.

Ah thanks for sharing the 2nd section!

... Huh. Elemental Betrayal is interesting now. When you Cast this
Spell, choose air, earth, metal, fire, water, or wood. The target
gains weakness 2 to that trait.

I am not sure if this is intended, but I think metal or wood weapons might trigger this. I don't thiiiink a strike with a steal sword would have the metal trait, but the weakness rules say: "If you have a weakness to something that doesn’t normally deal damage, such as water, you take damage equal to the weakness value when touched or affected
by it.

I'm not sure if that would be busted when used for your allies... but it might be busted on an enemy in metal armor.

Squiggit wrote:

Witch Armaments is striking in how conservative it is. The feat is written so cautiously like it isn't being designed for a class that wants to be as far away from martial combat as possible. Feats that are so incongruous with a class should be a little bit above the curve, but this was written like someone was really worried about how it could wreck the game.

I'm hoping the loss of reach from hair is a mistake at least.

It's not a loss. Living Hair didn't have reach even before the remaster.

You gain a hair unarmed attack that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage; is in the brawling group; and has the agile, disarm, finesse, trip, and unarmed traits.

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Witch Armaments is striking in how conservative it is. The feat is written so cautiously like it isn't being designed for a class that wants to be as far away from martial combat as possible. Feats that are so incongruous with a class should be a little bit above the curve, but this was written like someone was really worried about how it could wreck the game.

I'm hoping the loss of reach from hair is a mistake at least.

It's not a loss. Living Hair didn't have reach even before the remaster.

Living Hair wrote:

You gain a hair unarmed attack that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage; is in the brawling group; and has the agile, disarm, finesse, trip, and unarmed traits.

They might be thinking of the backup feat for it, Syu Tak-Nwa's Hexed Locks, that gives living hair reach: "Your hair unarmed attack gains the reach trait."

Gisher wrote:

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Witch Armaments is striking in how conservative it is. The feat is written so cautiously like it isn't being designed for a class that wants to be as far away from martial combat as possible. Feats that are so incongruous with a class should be a little bit above the curve, but this was written like someone was really worried about how it could wreck the game.

I'm hoping the loss of reach from hair is a mistake at least.

It's not a loss. Living Hair didn't have reach even before the remaster.

Living Hair wrote:

You gain a hair unarmed attack that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage; is in the brawling group; and has the agile, disarm, finesse, trip, and unarmed traits.

They might be thinking of the backup feat for it, Syu Tak-Nwa's Hexed Locks, that gives living hair reach: "Your hair unarmed attack gains the reach trait."

That and Demon's Hair were exactly what I was thinking of. Thank you!

Tunu40 wrote:

WWHsmackdown wrote:

You're saying there's a familiar ability to revive at daily preparations?

My apologies, I was asking if they formalized it as a separate section in the Witch class feature or if it was formalized as a Witch only familiar ability (like their patron familiar abilities).

It is an ability given to all witch familiars.

It is not one of the familiar abilities that you get to select from.

Since the dedication seems to indeed give you a Witch familiar, it should have Undying, like all Witch familiars do.

With the new death and dying rules being what they are. I'm going to start a new campaign in which all of the player characters are going to possess the Undying ability.

They will make their characters normally, but will adventure as the ritually evolved familiars of a powerful hag coven. Forced to go out into a harsh and unforgiving world at the behest of vile masters who care nothing for them save for their usefulness as pawns and tools, they must appease their patrons whilst trying to find a way to break free and reclaim their lives.

... Huh. Elemental Betrayal is interesting now. When you Cast this

Spell, choose air, earth, metal, fire, water, or wood. The target
gains weakness 2 to that trait.

I am not sure if this is intended, but I think metal or wood weapons might trigger this. I don't thiiiink a strike with a steal sword would have the metal trait, but the weakness rules say: "If you have a weakness to something that doesn’t normally deal damage, such as water, you take damage equal to the weakness value when touched or affected
by it.

I'm not sure if that would be busted when used for your allies... but it might be busted on an enemy in metal armor.

Oh. Well then.

That's a thing alright. Oops.

... Huh. Elemental Betrayal is interesting now. When you Cast this

Spell, choose air, earth, metal, fire, water, or wood. The target
gains weakness 2 to that trait.

I am not sure if this is intended, but I think metal or wood weapons might trigger this. I don't thiiiink a strike with a steal sword would have the metal trait, but the weakness rules say: "If you have a weakness to something that doesn’t normally deal damage, such as water, you take damage equal to the weakness value when touched or affected
by it.

I'm not sure if that would be busted when used for your allies... but it might be busted on an enemy in metal armor.

Yeah, in the interests of game balance, I wouldn't expect that to work. Up to GM discretion at best.

I do note that neither Strike, Chain mail, or a Longsword have the Metal trait. That is something that the GM would have to rule needs added.

Captain Morgan wrote:

... Huh. Elemental Betrayal is interesting now. When you Cast this

Spell, choose air, earth, metal, fire, water, or wood. The target
gains weakness 2 to that trait.

I am not sure if this is intended, but I think metal or wood weapons might trigger this. I don't thiiiink a strike with a steal sword would have the metal trait, but the weakness rules say: "If you have a weakness to something that doesn’t normally deal damage, such as water, you take damage equal to the weakness value when touched or affected
by it.

I'm not sure if that would be busted when used for your allies... but it might be busted on an enemy in metal armor.

Yeah, in the interests of game balance, I wouldn't expect that to work. Up to GM discretion at best.

I do note that neither Strike, Chain mail, or a Longsword have the Metal trait. That is something that the GM would have to rule needs added.

Yeah, but at the same time I'm not sure sure if a cold iron sword explicitly gains the cold iron trait, but it still triggers weakness. Also, it isn't ludicrously powerful for a focus spell when you compare it to a focus cantrip like stoke the heart. The focus cantrip boosts one ally's damage by the same amount. The focus point boosts the whole party (if they use the appropriate material for their strikes.) I think I'd allow it?

Ravingdork wrote:

Tunu40 wrote:

WWHsmackdown wrote:

You're saying there's a familiar ability to revive at daily preparations?

My apologies, I was asking if they formalized it as a separate section in the Witch class feature or if it was formalized as a Witch only familiar ability (like their patron familiar abilities).

It is an ability given to all witch familiars.

It is not one of the familiar abilities that you get to select from.

Since the dedication seems to indeed give you a Witch familiar, it should have Undying, like all Witch familiars do.

Depends on if you consider the undying part an effect granted by the patron as the archetype version says it doesn't get any effects granted by it (effects specifically, not just the unique ability).