Player Core Preview: The Remastered Ranger

Hopefully we can get an article on remastered animal companions.
Would be nice in the final version to see some of the ranger AC feats condensed, like merging camouflage and Stealthy companion, add some companion stuff onto other feats and/or make new AC feats to make ranger feel better then any class that just takes Beast Master.

I’m probably missing something, but doesn’t the propulsive trait of composite bows make up for the lower die? Then they still have Deadly and Reload 0 to race ahead. Why would anyone want an Arbalest?

A few reasons.

1. Composite bows are more expensive in terms of gold, ability boosts, and now probably feats You can't get composite at level 1, you have to spend a fair bit on strength to leverage propulsive. That second bit is especially relevant if your concept wants to invest in multiple mental stats like my kobold chef with the inventor dedication. (Or if you want charisma to use Wild Empathy and/or the new crossbow ace.) Hunted Shot also boosts your damage much more than the new crossbow ace, meaning it won't feel as bad to skip the latter.

2. Better range: twice the range of the shortbow with no volley. As evidenced in this thread, not everyone cares about that and not every campaign caters to it, but when it matters it matters quite a bit.

3. Avoid Notice virtually guarantees you start combat at least hidden, which means backstabber will usually apply to least your first shot.

4. Speaking of first shots, Rangers have a lot of ways to frontload their damage: precision edge, gravity weapon, hunter's aim, sniping duo dedication. If you miss your one shot a round, it sucks, but if you land one hit around for that much damage you don't care as much about landing more.

5. Running reload encourages you to actively run around the battlefield with tactical positioning, which is more interesting than being a stationary turret.

6. Penetrating Shot makes that one big hit do twice the damage, further encourages tactical movement, and alleviates some of the pressure to on Hunted Prey cycling.

7. Damage resistance. Piercing is the worst damage for triggering weakness so you rarely get the advantage of triggering more than once a round. It also doesn't bypass a lot of resistance, so the one big hit is nice. Also, special ammunition is expensive and I wouldn't strictly want burn that much money on MAP strikes.

I think if you want to max your damage above all else and want a very simple combat routine, composite bows are the way to go. But if you want a different build or play experience, crossbows offer it and are a lot of fun.

Not sure what you mean by negating its usefulness.

Action economy: at 1 action it has pros and cons vs casting a spell. At 2 actions, it's pretty much all con vs a cantrip. In what context do you see a 2 action crossbow attack useful outside the rare multi-football field ranges?

If we're talking about the heavy crossbow, it's likely it would be empty already.

If it's empty, no reason to carry it in most cases making it a moot point: who's spending 2 actions in combat reloading?

Your original assumption that it's disabling to casters is still wrong.

... I think I proved that it does indeed do so depending on the spell you want to cast. Again, saying you can cast spells while wielding a crossbow isn't any more correct than what I said: it depends on what you try to cast. It would have been better if I'd said 'you might not be able to cast with the crssbow in hand' though that would have likely provoked the same replies.

aobst128 wrote:

Not sure what you mean by negating its usefulness.

Action economy: at 1 action it has pros and cons vs casting a spell. At 2 actions, it's pretty much all con vs a cantrip. In what context do you see a 2 action crossbow attack useful outside the rare multi-football field ranges?

aobst128 wrote:

If we're talking about the heavy crossbow, it's likely it would be empty already.

If it's empty, no reason to carry it in most cases making it a moot point: who's spending 2 actions in combat reloading?

aobst128 wrote:

Your original assumption that it's disabling to casters is still wrong.

... I think I proved that it does indeed do so depending on the spell you want to cast. Again, saying you can cast spells while wielding a crossbow isn't any more correct than what I said: it depends on what you try to cast. It would have been better if I'd said 'you might not be able to cast with the crssbow in hand' though that would have likely provoked the same replies.

The purpose purposed for a heavy crossbow earlier was for fire and forget strategy. If you wanted to be accurate, you should have said it prevents material component spells. Only while holding it though, which is simple enough to deal with if you want to cast a material spell.

Your issues are ultimately easy to manage. There's better arguments against occupying your hands as a caster. Such as scrolls and staves. Early game, I can see the use before you can afford much caster gear.

The purpose purposed for a heavy crossbow earlier was for fire and forget strategy.

If you wanted to be accurate, you should have said it prevents material component spells. Only while holding it though, which is simple enough to deal with if you want to cast a material spell.

I think we've covered the accuracy: i thought it clear and clarified when people commented.

As to swapping hands, as you pointed out, many material spells are 3 actions and they are often ones you want to get out early. Also note what I clearly stated in that first post: "it is truly only useful to wield it at the start of combat, fire it with your first action, then drop it" so if we are ONLY talking about fire and forget, I'm not sure where the disagreement is.

Your issues are ultimately easy to manage. There's better arguments against occupying your hands as a caster. Such as scrolls and staves. Early game, I can see the use before you can afford much caster gear.

It's not an either/or situation: I was just pointing out one.

I think it's just that you said something that needed correction/clarification and you kept arguing about it afterwards. I just obliged. Still, casters are fine with 2 handed weapons. Not the best but they function.

I feel like I would still not go for a crossbow for any reason besides looks to be honest. Ranger has such a tedious action econom that getting a reload weapon feels like hampering your effectiveness on purpose. Wich I'm still going to do but still, would be nice to get some action economy out of hunt prey. A free reload per round IF I build the spell ranger is nothing for me to care about, expecially for a level 16 feat.
And no, Monster Hunter does not count, it basically is a dead feat for most rangers until level 10

I think the whole oof moment of forgetting that Material Components and Focuses existing is beside the point anyhow since the topic of discussion is the Ranger which has precisely zero Focus Spells that have a Material Component unless that is changing with the Remaster.

The conversation being in the context of the ranger is relevant, yes, as is the fact that the original statement that casters can't cast spells while using a two-handed weapon was also incorrect. "[...] can't cast a small number of specific premaster spells using certain components" would have been more accurate, but as we've already noted-

As we’ve mentioned in several places, we’ve removed spell components from spells for several reasons.

I really would have liked to see a hunt prey/reload action. Hunter's reload or something. That would give crossbows back the kind of edge that bows or dual wielding does for the ranger with their action compressors.

Themetricsystem wrote:

I think the whole oof moment of forgetting that Material Components and Focuses existing is beside the point anyhow since the topic of discussion is the Ranger which has precisely zero Focus Spells that have a Material Component unless that is changing with the Remaster.

The conversation being in the context of the ranger is relevant, yes, as is the fact that the original statement that casters can't cast spells while using a two-handed weapon was also incorrect. "[...] can't cast a small number of specific premaster spells using certain components" would have been more accurate, but as we've already noted-

Quote:

As we’ve mentioned in several places, we’ve removed spell components from spells for several reasons.

Does this mean that no spells will need hands going forward? If so, I'm all for it. The blog mentioned axing components but such things could be rolled in spellcasting itself much like component substitution is now.

Most spells will still have the manipulate trait I bet so as far as hands go, you just need to avoid being restrained to cast. Requirements and descriptions will vary though. Notably, slashing gust requires 2 free hands to get both attacks with it. 1 with one hand.

Previously, it was also mentioned that they were looking into removing the Hunt Prey requirement on some feats. Has anyone seen anything specific in the book?

Previously, it was also mentioned that they were looking into removing the Hunt Prey requirement on some feats. Has anyone seen anything specific in the book?

As far as I know it has only been removed from the Mature Animal Companion which can now use its frde action to Stride and Strike freely instead of being limited to your hunted Prey.

I really would have liked to see a hunt prey/reload action. Hunter's reload or something. That would give crossbows back the kind of edge that bows or dual wielding does for the ranger with their action compressors.

Same. There was a good idea for a ranger feat on the Roll for Combat stream that someone suggested; Sudden Charge, but instead of two Stride actions you could Stride, Hunt Prey, Strike.

I think what I'd like to see for Hunt Prey is a feat or default option that Hunting a new prey doesn't end your old one. If you're tracking a group of the same creatures, it is janky deciding which of them was your actual prey. So why not just do all of them?

Alternatively, you could make Hunt Prey apply to all statically identical creatures, but that's a bigger upgrade as it doesn't require pre-hunting and gets a little wonky when you start seeing variations of the same species, like different goblins from the bestiary.

I'll try one of these out as a house rule. Y'all might consider it too.

I think what I'd like to see for Hunt Prey is a feat or default option that Hunting a new prey doesn't end your old one. If you're tracking a group of the same creatures, it is janky deciding which of them was your actual prey. So why not just do all of them?

Like Double Prey?

It isn't quite what you are mentioning, but it is pretty close.

Captain Morgan wrote:

I think what I'd like to see for Hunt Prey is a feat or default option that Hunting a new prey doesn't end your old one. If you're tracking a group of the same creatures, it is janky deciding which of them was your actual prey. So why not just do all of them?

Like Double Prey?

It isn't quite what you are mentioning, but it is pretty close.

Double Prey certainly helps the action economy pain of higher level Rangers. So much so that I wonder why people who complain about Prey cycling at high levels don't use it. But it's less "let me hunt two prey for one actions" that I want than "let me take time to mark every target in exploration mode." While an actual hunter might only care about picking off one gazelle from the herd, a player character hunter needs to think about the whole pack of wolves. The ranger class is at its thematic and mechanical best when you can scout out enemies in advance, and I'd prefer to lean into that farther than rather than simply reduce in-combat action costs.

Alternatively, you could make Hunt Prey apply to all statically identical creatures, but that's a bigger upgrade as it doesn't require pre-hunting and gets a little wonky when you start seeing variations of the same species, like different goblins from the bestiary.

That'd bury Monster Hunter (plus Outwit combo). You must have an ability to make Recall knowledge on each individual creature. Even if they are identical.

Captain Morgan wrote:

Alternatively, you could make Hunt Prey apply to all statically identical creatures, but that's a bigger upgrade as it doesn't require pre-hunting and gets a little wonky when you start seeing variations of the same species, like different goblins from the bestiary.

That'd bury Monster Hunter (plus Outwit combo). You must have an ability to make Recall knowledge on each individual creature. Even if they are identical.

Or they could just improve Outwit and Monster Hunter combo. I honestly question the value of both Outwit and Monster Hunter.

Monster Hunter is nice - free recall knowledge as part of an action you want to do anyway is nice but most Rangers rarely have knowledge skills other than Nature. Ranger in my current campaign (AV) is finding it challenging as most of the enemies in that module are not identified by Nature.

Outwit just struggles in comparison to Precision and Flurry. Our ranger started as outwit but retrained out of it early as it wasn't really helping. I think outwit should just be a standard part of hunt prey for all rangers, its thematic and might help the class.

I would like to see Monster Hunter allow a ranger to make a recall knowledge with the option of using survival even it it limited the type of RK check to saves, speed, attacks based on the tracks or way the creature moved.

Yeah I was really shocked to see Outwit receive zero changes in remaster.

My outwit ranger is a beast at scaring the pelt off any creature or NPC he sees as prey. Definitely a big boon in social situations.

Errenor wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Alternatively, you could make Hunt Prey apply to all statically identical creatures, but that's a bigger upgrade as it doesn't require pre-hunting and gets a little wonky when you start seeing variations of the same species, like different goblins from the bestiary.

That'd bury Monster Hunter (plus Outwit combo). You must have an ability to make Recall knowledge on each individual creature. Even if they are identical.

Or they could just improve Outwit and Monster Hunter combo. I honestly question the value of both Outwit and Monster Hunter.

Monster Hunter is nice - free recall knowledge as part of an action you want to do anyway is nice but most Rangers rarely have knowledge skills other than Nature. Ranger in my current campaign (AV) is finding it challenging as most of the enemies in that module are not identified by Nature.

Outwit just struggles in comparison to Precision and Flurry. Our ranger started as outwit but retrained out of it early as it wasn't really helping. I think outwit should just be a standard part of hunt prey for all rangers, its thematic and might help the class.

I would like to see Monster Hunter allow a ranger to make a recall knowledge with the option of using survival even it it limited the type of RK check to saves, speed, attacks based on the tracks or way the creature moved.

I also like the idea of outwit skill bonuses being a standard class feature. Ranger is in a weird spot where much of its identity is tied to skills but the cost of actually being better with those skills is really high between the hunter's edge and class feat choices. Outwit can be one of the best builds for specific skills, but man do they pay for it.

I'd perhaps suggest that every ranger gets to choose a smaller subset of skills or skill actions they can apply the Hunt Prey circumstance bonus on. Aside from keeping their power budget in check, this also eases the problem of outwit rangers wanting to be good with every attribute and every skill.

Cyder wrote:

Errenor wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Alternatively, you could make Hunt Prey apply to all statically identical creatures, but that's a bigger upgrade as it doesn't require pre-hunting and gets a little wonky when you start seeing variations of the same species, like different goblins from the bestiary.

That'd bury Monster Hunter (plus Outwit combo). You must have an ability to make Recall knowledge on each individual creature. Even if they are identical.

Or they could just improve Outwit and Monster Hunter combo. I honestly question the value of both Outwit and Monster Hunter.

Monster Hunter is nice - free recall knowledge as part of an action you want to do anyway is nice but most Rangers rarely have knowledge skills other than Nature. Ranger in my current campaign (AV) is finding it challenging as most of the enemies in that module are not identified by Nature.

Outwit just struggles in comparison to Precision and Flurry. Our ranger started as outwit but retrained out of it early as it wasn't really helping. I think outwit should just be a standard part of hunt prey for all rangers, its thematic and might help the class.

I would like to see Monster Hunter allow a ranger to make a recall knowledge with the option of using survival even it it limited the type of RK check to saves, speed, attacks based on the tracks or way the creature moved.

I also like the idea of outwit skill bonuses being a standard class feature. Ranger is in a weird spot where much of its identity is tied to skills but the cost of actually being better with those skills is really high between the hunter's edge and class feat choices. Outwit can be one of the best builds for specific skills, but man do they pay for it.

I'd perhaps suggest that every ranger gets to choose a smaller subset of skills or skill actions they can apply the Hunt Prey circumstance bonus on. Aside from keeping their power budget in check, this also eases the problem of outwit rangers wanting...

Sounds very nice but I fear that it is a bit late for that. I have the sneaking suspicion that ranger will not be touched for a quite long time.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting these as official requests to Paizo. I'm pretty sure these pain points will just be part of the ranger for PF2. (I'd still play one 9/10 times over a fighter, but that's personal taste.) I'm only throwing these ideas out as house rules GMs could try.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting these as official requests to Paizo. I'm pretty sure these pain points will just be part of the ranger for PF2. (I'd still play one 9/10 times over a fighter, but that's personal taste.) I'm only throwing these ideas out as house rules GMs could try.

I mean duh, ranger is best class, always go for ranger

Don't get how you can think Wild Stride will come up more often than Nature's Edge, given Nature's Edge comes up earlier and is more relevant to ranged characters as well as melee. If there's difficult terrain for Wild Stride to matter, odds are there is difficult terrain for Nature's Edge to. It is also worth noting that I'm pretty sure spells like Cave Fangs or How long Blizzard trigger Nature's Edge but not Wild Stride,

Well you are in luck the new Ranger gets to exploit difficult terrain with Natures Edge and Wild Stride (renamed to Unimpeded Journey) changed to apply to all difficult terrain - even the terrain you generate yourself.

That is a good boost.

Captain Morgan wrote:

Don't get how you can think Wild Stride will come up more often than Nature's Edge, given Nature's Edge comes up earlier and is more relevant to ranged characters as well as melee. If there's difficult terrain for Wild Stride to matter, odds are there is difficult terrain for Nature's Edge to. It is also worth noting that I'm pretty sure spells like Cave Fangs or How long Blizzard trigger Nature's Edge but not Wild Stride,

Well you are in luck the new Ranger gets to exploit difficult terrain with Natures Edge and Wild Stride (renamed to Unimpeded Journey) changed to apply to all difficult terrain - even the terrain you generate yourself.

That is a good boost.

Agreed, loosing two class features in urban settings or dungeons felt really bad. Now, I do not know how much difficult terrains are a thing in other people campaigns but i can see magical effects that create them become very interesting

Gortle wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Don't get how you can think Wild Stride will come up more often than Nature's Edge, given Nature's Edge comes up earlier and is more relevant to ranged characters as well as melee. If there's difficult terrain for Wild Stride to matter, odds are there is difficult terrain for Nature's Edge to. It is also worth noting that I'm pretty sure spells like Cave Fangs or How long Blizzard trigger Nature's Edge but not Wild Stride,

Well you are in luck the new Ranger gets to exploit difficult terrain with Natures Edge and Wild Stride (renamed to Unimpeded Journey) changed to apply to all difficult terrain - even the terrain you generate yourself.

That is a good boost.

Agreed, loosing two class features in urban settings or dungeons felt really bad. Now, I do not know how much difficult terrains are a thing in other people campaigns but i can see magical effects that create them become very interesting

Yeah, ranger will pair very well with the druid now-- primal has a lot of difficult terrain spells. This + druid upgrades cements my opinions that if you're playing in a wilderness campaign and don't include those classes You're doing it wrong.

So I'm currently playing my first game as a dwarven hunter in abom vaults, focused on using a Crossbow with Precision, Crossbow ace and snares.

We're still only level 3, but about to hit 4 and I currently like being able to snipe at enemies down hallways and set up things like alarm and spike snares.

After reading the changes posted for the remaster it sounds like my character would end up being totally nerfed afterwards with the lower crossbow damage.

I'm still fairly new to all this so if there's anything that is actually good from these changes or other stuff in the remaster I'd love to know.

Just keep playing your non-remastered ranger. You'll be fine.

Yeah, Snares aren't out yet in the remaster (they're coming in Player Core 2 I believe) and the "Crossbow Ace doesn't up your damage" anymore thing is balanced out by there being a Martial Crossbow that already does that much damage that you could just buy instead.

Yeah, Snares aren't out yet in the remaster (they're coming in Player Core 2 I believe) and the "Crossbow Ace doesn't up your damage" anymore thing is balanced out by there being a Martial Crossbow that already does that much damage that you could just buy instead.

It actually does slightly less damage than CRB crossbow ace did, but if you skip the new crossbow ace and take gravity weapon and/or the Sniping Duo dedication you'll do more damage in the long run because the status and circumstance bonuses stack with backstabber.

You can also just take the Snarecrafter archetype for the snares, which in fact lets you get the free snares going earlier.