Player Core Preview: The Remastered Ranger

Wow. A level sixteen feat to reload when you cast a spell. Revealed far too late to be changed so people actually get to use it.

Hope this means adventure paths are gonna start reaching that level.

There have been a lot of adventure paths for PF2 that reach 20th level: five 1-20 APs, and two 11-20 (not counting Kingmaker as that's outside the regular APs). Playing long enough to finish them is a different matter.

From wikipedia: " A skilled arbalestier (arbalester) could loose two bolts per minute". That's one bolt every 5 combat rounds. Reload 12? :-)

This really doesn't seem like the right direction for crossbows, they should be getting stronger not weaker. Even with crossbow ace as it is crossbows deal less damage per turn than bows while also having fewer free actions due to needing to reload. Adding reload feats helps but even with them crossbow wielders have far fewer options on what they can do each turn.

While I initially didn't love the slight damage nerf compared to CRB crossbow ace vs remaster crossbow ace with arbelest, there's one really good benefit. The new crossbow ace looks pretty skippable to me. It looks like the sniper's covered reload but is generally worse because it lacks HideYou can snag it if you're interested, but can also skip it now if you don't feel like investing in deception or constantly taking cover.

And that frees you up to take other feats. I was initially thinking that would be Monster Hunter or Animal Companion to diversify your build, but then I noticed... gravity weapon is right there, and will likely put the Remaster Ranger ahead of the old Ranger. Old ranger could snag Gravity Weapon, too, technically, but then they are delaying Hunter's Aim at 2 or Running Reload at 4. And getting gravity bow early sounds like a nice choice given it sound like we have new warden spells coming, so growing your focus pool will likely be wise.

This change also means crossbow switch hitters can be a thing, which was basically just for bows pre-remaster. Overall, this change feels really good once you skip crossbow ace.

Dragonborn3 wrote:

Wow. A level sixteen feat to reload when you cast a spell. Revealed far too late to be changed so people actually get to use it.

Hope this means adventure paths are gonna start reaching that level.

There have been a lot of adventure paths for PF2 that reach 20th level: five 1-20 APs, and two 11-20 (not counting Kingmaker as that's outside the regular APs). Playing long enough to finish them is a different matter.

Unfortunately, those 1-20 APs include the first PF2 adventures which were poorly balanced, and Kingmaker which didn't get enough testing done on its sub systems. I like high levels but I'd rather deal with Abomination Vaults or Quest for the Frozen Flame than Age of Ashes or Extinction Curse.

That said, I don't get why people are so bummed out when a feat is high level. Possible Cabbage pointed out why this one is, but at the end of the day we still need high level feats to be a thing and there's already a massive improvement to the early game here now that Gravity Weapon can replace Crossbow Ace.

From wikipedia: " A skilled arbalestier (arbalester) could loose two bolts per minute". That's one bolt every 5 combat rounds. Reload 12? :-)

And they dealt a whole lot more damage, and ignored armor, and ignored tough hides.

While 1800s muskets (period accurate for golarion) were 1/minute and were even stronger than crossbows.

But yeah that aint happening in PF2.

I mean it's pretty simple, the higher level a feat is, the less time players have to utilize it.

So when a feat enables cool gameplay options, or solves a problem you've been dealing with for a long time, it can feel bad when it's really far out of reach.

Think I still prefer the sukgung for precision rangers but the arbalest is essentially a better repeating heavy crossbow now. Fills out the niche.

Looks like a nice refresh for an already solid class. I'm looking forward to more Remaster previews!

Lots of really cool stuff, especially the clean up of Warden Spell progression. I'm still really disappointed by the lack of Outwit buffs though. All it really needs is to apply its bonus to Athletics Checks against the target and it'd be excellent at frontline support.

While I initially didn't love the slight damage nerf compared to CRB crossbow ace vs remaster crossbow ace with arbelest, there's one really good benefit. The new crossbow ace looks pretty skippable to me. It looks like the sniper's covered reload but is generally worse because it lacks HideYou can snag it if you're interested, but can also skip it now if you don't feel like investing in deception or constantly taking cover.

And that frees you up to take other feats. I was initially thinking that would be Monster Hunter or Animal Companion to diversify your build, but then I noticed... gravity weapon is right there, and will likely put the Remaster Ranger ahead of the old Ranger. Old ranger could snag Gravity Weapon, too, technically, but then they are delaying Hunter's Aim at 2 or Running Reload at 4. And getting gravity bow early sounds like a nice choice given it sound like we have new warden spells coming, so growing your focus pool will likely be wise.

This change also means crossbow switch hitters can be a thing, which was basically just for bows pre-remaster. Overall, this change feels really good once you skip crossbow ace.

You got an interesting point, now Crossbow Ace isn't a must have feat anymore for crossbow rangers anymore. Yet this option also feels more weak than before when compared to the alternative (Flurry + Bow).

So I still don't see this see this being beneficial in general. I also wanted that this feat works with firearms too.

At last it can now combine with Crossbow Crack Shot so if you are making a remastered crossbow range you could consider to take Gunslinger dedication.

The thing that would set crossbows up to better compete at low levels would be to have something like risky reload. That's what makes firearms work for most gunslinger builds. Crossbows don't have that kind of action booster except hand crossbows in the drow shootist archetype.

Ed Reppert wrote:

From wikipedia: " A skilled arbalestier (arbalester) could loose two bolts per minute". That's one bolt every 5 combat rounds. Reload 12? :-)

And they dealt a whole lot more damage, and ignored armor, and ignored tough hides.

An arbalest would not deal more damage than a halberd or great club, both of which also deal d10s. They do get to add str, but the arbalest gets backstaber, and the average str for a soldier is probably around +2.

It also would not ignore armor or thick hides, arbalests have been used sense the 12th century, and plate mail was invented in the 14th century. Getting hit with an arbalest while in armor would not be a good time, but nor was getting hit with a great club or halberd

While 1800s muskets (period accurate for golarion) were 1/minute and were even stronger than crossbows.

But yeah that aint happening in PF2.

Yes, because due to differences in Golarions development, they favored paper cartridges, which are much weaker but fire much faster. For a cartridge based system, pathfinder has it fairly right.

I do hope we get muzzleloading guns in PF as a form of martial focus spell (can't be loaded in combat, but gives you one very powerful attack), but thats nether here nor there

Any changes to Hunt Prey? It's a massive action tax in fights with a lot of enemies (ie, the fun fights) and the benefit of doing it vs keeping the action doesn't really seem worth it, especially when Fighters don't have this kind of tax and tend to hit harder anyway.

Overall disappointing. Bad math on "single powerful attacks" strikes again (see Swashbuckler Finishers, most single target blasting spells, Power Attack, etc.). Flurry itself is a pretty bland trait and suffers by comparison to the accuracy-improving elephant in the room, so Precision continuing to be Flurry's less desirable cousin isn't helping Ranger's image.

Before the crossbow ace feat added +2 for all crossbows and increased damage dice for simple. So now +2 damage bonus is going away? That will make crossbow less competitive with bows and thrown weapons imo. Maybe consider giving ranger a class damage bonus like gunslinger?

Also not sure what is the point of arbalest when sukgung exists?

Captain Morgan wrote:

While I initially didn't love the slight damage nerf compared to CRB crossbow ace vs remaster crossbow ace with arbelest, there's one really good benefit. The new crossbow ace looks pretty skippable to me. It looks like the sniper's covered reload but is generally worse because it lacks HideYou can snag it if you're interested, but can also skip it now if you don't feel like investing in deception or constantly taking cover.

And that frees you up to take other feats. I was initially thinking that would be Monster Hunter or Animal Companion to diversify your build, but then I noticed... gravity weapon is right there, and will likely put the Remaster Ranger ahead of the old Ranger. Old ranger could snag Gravity Weapon, too, technically, but then they are delaying Hunter's Aim at 2 or Running Reload at 4. And getting gravity bow early sounds like a nice choice given it sound like we have new warden spells coming, so growing your focus pool will likely be wise.

This change also means crossbow switch hitters can be a thing, which was basically just for bows pre-remaster. Overall, this change feels really good once you skip crossbow ace.

You got an interesting point, now Crossbow Ace isn't a must have feat anymore for crossbow rangers anymore. Yet this option also feels more weak than before when compared to the alternative (Flurry + Bow).

So I still don't see this see this being beneficial in general. I also wanted that this feat works with firearms too.

At last it can now combine with Crossbow Crack Shot so if you are making a remastered crossbow range you could consider to take Gunslinger dedication.

I'm not sure what you mean. This feat does work with firearms, and I don't see how gravity weapon + arbelest is any worse than crossbow ace + crossbow was, and don't follow the logic to be worse relative to a flurry ranger with hunted show and a shortbow. Besides the one action to activate gravity weapon, but as the blog points alludes to you should really be aiming to prebuff on a ranger anyway.

Generally the "woe into the suffering crossbow ranger" doesn't seem to pan out when you look at damage numbers.

1d10+2+1d8 > CRB crossbow ace + crossbow = 12 damage on average.

1d10+2+1d8 > Remaster gravity weapon + arbalest= same 12 damage, with room to go higher thanks to backstabber and sniping duo now stacking, and better scaling once you get striking.

1d6 > flurry with shortbow = 3.5 damage. You may get more shots, but you need to actually land four (or get deadly from a lucky crit) to exceed one hit from the precision arbalest. And you have half the range, which matters more than you'd think in something like Kingmaker where the Ranger excels. Even if gravity weapon isn't in play, you still need 3 arrows to land to beat the one bolt.

You can get the damage higher by using a composite shortbow, but then you're having to invest in strength where the crossbow gets to invest in other ability scores. You can use a longbow, but then you need to deal with volley. You can try carrying a longbow and a shortbow but then rune costs add up and you'll want quick draw to keep the right option on hand, where the arbalest works fine at any distance within 220 feet.

Thematically I like the Ranger.

I prefer Snares over Warden spells so I don't like this change. I do agree though that Snares have some issues that are worth tweaking. Example why are we moving snares around?! Narratively it seems off, but it does make them more relevant tactically. I hope that is done in the archetype.

However a sidegrade on the crossbow, keeps an inferior option still inferior. The Ranger is still just underdone compared to its nearest rivals the Fighter, Monk, or the Rogue.

Before the crossbow ace feat added +2 for all crossbows and increased damage dice for simple. So now +2 damage bonus is going away? That will make crossbow less competitive with bows and thrown weapons imo. Maybe consider giving ranger a class damage bonus like gunslinger?

Also not sure what is the point of arbalest when sukgung exists?

Only if you actually take crossbow ace still. But you shouldn't, you should take Gravity Weapon if you want to chase damage or something like Monster Hunter if you don't.

And arbalest will likely be better than the sukung for rangers, where the sukang slaps the hardest on a gunslinger. The higher your accuracy, the more important fatal and deadly become. With standard martial accuracy, I think you generally want higher base damage dice. Also, backstabber is a nice addition to the arbalest.

I'm not sure what you mean. This feat does work with firearms

Its requirements is restricting to Crossbows.

, and I don't see how gravity weapon + arbelest is any worse than crossbow ace + crossbow was, and don't follow the logic to be worse relative to a flurry ranger with hunted show and a shortbow. Besides the one action to activate...

Nothing prevent you to get both starting from level 2. I'm not considering this as one or other. It's pretty common in the CRB+APG to get both to use with crossbows.

Temperans wrote:

Ed Reppert wrote:

From wikipedia: " A skilled arbalestier (arbalester) could loose two bolts per minute". That's one bolt every 5 combat rounds. Reload 12? :-)

And they dealt a whole lot more damage, and ignored armor, and ignored tough hides.

An arbalest would not deal more damage than a halberd or great club, both of which also deal d10s. They do get to add str, but the arbalest gets backstaber, and the average str for a soldier is probably around +2.

It also would not ignore armor or thick hides, arbalests have been used sense the 12th century, and plate mail was invented in the 14th century. Getting hit with an arbalest while in armor would not be a good time, but nor was getting hit with a great club or halberd

Temperans wrote:

While 1800s muskets (period accurate for golarion) were 1/minute and were even stronger than crossbows.

But yeah that aint happening in PF2.

Yes, because due to differences in Golarions development, they favored paper cartridges, which are much weaker but fire much faster. For a cartridge based system, pathfinder has it fairly right.

I do hope we get muzzleloading guns in PF as a form of martial focus spell (can't be loaded in combat, but gives you one very powerful attack), but thats nether here nor there

The comparison is versus a bow of low enough weight that you don't even need a str score to use. Why are you bringing in melee weapons?

Also I have no idea what you are talking about with the cartridges. Pathfinder guns are muzzleloaders and the real world has used paper cartridges for centuries. They were less used in war because they are a hassle and costly to maintain under those conditions. The reason why Pathfinder has guns fire quickly is because its more fun to make attacks every round and they certainly wont give players a realistic guns because they want bows to be the best ranged weapons.

Pathfinder guns are breach loaders with paper cartridges according to guns and gears

YuriP wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

While I initially didn't love the slight damage nerf compared to CRB crossbow ace vs remaster crossbow ace with arbelest, there's one really good benefit. The new crossbow ace looks pretty skippable to me. It looks like the sniper's covered reload but is generally worse because it lacks HideYou can snag it if you're interested, but can also skip it now if you don't feel like investing in deception or constantly taking cover.

And that frees you up to take other feats. I was initially thinking that would be Monster Hunter or Animal Companion to diversify your build, but then I noticed... gravity weapon is right there, and will likely put the Remaster Ranger ahead of the old Ranger. Old ranger could snag Gravity Weapon, too, technically, but then they are delaying Hunter's Aim at 2 or Running Reload at 4. And getting gravity bow early sounds like a nice choice given it sound like we have new warden spells coming, so growing your focus pool will likely be wise.

This change also means crossbow switch hitters can be a thing, which was basically just for bows pre-remaster. Overall, this change feels really good once you skip crossbow ace.

You got an interesting point, now Crossbow Ace isn't a must have feat anymore for crossbow rangers anymore. Yet this option also feels more weak than before when compared to the alternative (Flurry + Bow).

So I still don't see this see this being beneficial in general. I also wanted that this feat works with firearms too.

At last it can now combine with Crossbow Crack Shot so if you are making a remastered crossbow range you could consider to take Gunslinger dedication.

I'm not sure what you mean. This feat does work with firearms, and I don't see how gravity weapon + arbelest is any worse than crossbow ace + crossbow was, and don't follow the logic to be worse relative to a flurry ranger with hunted show and a shortbow. Besides the one action to activate...

Let me correct you a bit.

Post-remaster:
Crossbow deals 1d8 at 120ft.
With Gravity Weapon its 1d8+1 at 120ft.

Arbalest deals 1d10+Backstabber at 110ft.
With Gravity Weapon its 1d10+1+Backstabber+1d8 at 110ft on the first shot (assuming it hits).

If you have to get Gunslinger Archetype to get Crossbow Crack Shot that is 3 feats to do what you could previously do with 2.

So in short to do what you could do previously you now have to spend more feats. Or you have to keep making the enemy flat-footed on every round and use the new weapon (which cannot be gotten at level 1 and has a shorter range). The one good crossbow playstyle is now worse for the sake of making a new playstyle that is more inconsistent with no real benefit.

Edit: No, Temp, you don't need Crossbow Crackshot, which is a bad fear because you have to reload the same turn you shoot to get the bonus. You want the Sniping Duo dedication. which gives you a circumstance bonus that will eventually outscale the old crossbow ace, lets you ignore lesser cover, and still benefit from backstabber.

Captain Morgan wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean. This feat does work with firearms

Its requirements is restricting to Crossbows.

Captain Morgan wrote:

, and I don't see how gravity weapon + arbelest is any worse than crossbow ace + crossbow was, and don't follow the logic to be worse relative to a flurry ranger with hunted show and a shortbow. Besides the one action to activate...

Nothing prevent you to get both starting from level 2. I'm not considering this as one or other. It's pretty common in the CRB+APG to get both to use with crossbows.

Good call on the requirements. Oddly enough, a gauntlet bow would let you use the feat with guns, by a silly RAW reading.

But if we are bringing a second feat into it, remaster could instead take the sniping duo dedication, and now you have your circumstance bonus to damage back, and it will scale better with level too. Or Hunters Aim, which is a less obvious replacement but accuracy is damage.

Paizo's stated reasoning seems to bear out here. Crossbow Ace was a feat tax, and when you consider the value of what that feat could buy a remastered crossbow ranger can now do better damage without it. Though I will note the new Crossbow Ace does have some slick defensive benefits, particularly if you consider the Fleeing Diversion feat.

Of all the things I might want to see ahead of time, the Ranger was probably not one of them. I’ve almost never played one, but my brother loved them back in the day, and I’ve played alongside a good many. So….I’m buased but:

I’m not sure baking in more spellcasting is a universally populat approach. I often see calls for a Spell-less Ranger. I’m kinda on the fence seeing as the ADnD “original ranger” (*not* that “Ranger from the north”) had spellcasting. Which admittedly didn’t come online until later….

Speaking of later, I always bring this up, but others already have so I’ll just add to it. Why preview, let alone create, a 16th level Feat choice that is so lacklustre? Even if it does somehow do something, thematically it is incredibly boring. I just don’t understand how this a) is a thing, or b) noteworthy.

Crossbows. Why should a ranger needs so much work devoted to them? Is it because the name has range in it? And if they can use bows, why all the fuss for crossbows? I don’t really get the iconic “ranger with a…..crossbow” concept, at all. And I was actually wanting to see if crossbows were getting some improvement in the Remaster. Waaaaaay higher on my list than the ranger. Like actually on my list. For any character. I’ll be houseruling crossbows into the next aeon.

Snares. I agree, if they were subpar, improve them. I’m not sure a Snarecrafter archetype is going to excite me much. I get that moving them down the timeline is probably a better idea than eliminating them from the game. Just.

Overall, it’s a giant miss for me.

Pathfinder guns are breach loaders with paper cartridges according to guns and gears

Looked it up and I am not seeing that anywhere. Arquebuses are muzzle loaders, flintlocks are muzzle loaders, etc. The only ones that seem like breech loaders are the repeating weapons.

Captain Morgan wrote:

YuriP wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

While I initially didn't love the slight damage nerf compared to CRB crossbow ace vs remaster crossbow ace with arbelest, there's one really good benefit. The new crossbow ace looks pretty skippable to me. It looks like the sniper's covered reload but is generally worse because it lacks HideYou can snag it if you're interested, but can also skip it now if you don't feel like investing in deception or constantly taking cover.

And that frees you up to take other feats. I was initially thinking that would be Monster Hunter or Animal Companion to diversify your build, but then I noticed... gravity weapon is right there, and will likely put the Remaster Ranger ahead of the old Ranger. Old ranger could snag Gravity Weapon, too, technically, but then they are delaying Hunter's Aim at 2 or Running Reload at 4. And getting gravity bow early sounds like a nice choice given it sound like we have new warden spells coming, so growing your focus pool will likely be wise.

This change also means crossbow switch hitters can be a thing, which was basically just for bows pre-remaster. Overall, this change feels really good once you skip crossbow ace.

You got an interesting point, now Crossbow Ace isn't a must have feat anymore for crossbow rangers anymore. Yet this option also feels more weak than before when compared to the alternative (Flurry + Bow).

So I still don't see this see this being beneficial in general. I also wanted that this feat works with firearms too.

At last it can now combine with Crossbow Crack Shot so if you are making a remastered crossbow range you could consider to take Gunslinger dedication.

I'm not sure what you mean. This feat does work with firearms, and I don't see how gravity weapon + arbelest is any worse than crossbow ace + crossbow was, and don't follow the logic to be worse relative to a flurry ranger with hunted show and a shortbow.

...

About damage of Flurry + ShortBow vs Crossbows + Ace (both with gravity weapon starting from lvl 2).

I don't make a comparision with Remaster because we lack of deatails and the PF2Calculator still not prepared for it.

Ps.: I think that was well know that Flurry overshades Precision in highest levels (with the exception for Str rangers with two-handed d12 melee weapon with an Animal Companion once that both get the Precision damage basically doubling it)

I am glad they are addressing the Crossbow playstyle by making it more in-line with Bow gameplay and making Martial Crossbows a new standard, and giving it an innately better Critical Specialization is nice (especially since the 'pin' specialization is pretty terrible as it is). But I'm not entirely convinced that the whole "tracking" thing is to blame for Crossbow Ace being inconsistent, since it could easily be written to be consistent, such as it operating constantly while loaded (similar to how Crossbow Terror is for the Archer archetype, and it isn't difficult to implement a "Only works for Hunted Target" clause, either). There's also not benefitting from the +2 Circumstance Bonus to damage anymore as well, which is a let-down, even if it meant you were basically dealing D12+1 damage, this was easily tempered by Reload 1. (By the way, having more clarity on Reload rules in general would be awesome.)

I think I am also glad that they are making Ranger Focus Spells more appealing (since right now they are pretty bad), though I will reserve judgement until after the release in regards to this, but if it turns out I will actually want to invest in the Focus Spells instead of taking a dedication or something, then it's a win in my book.

Maybe having a Hunter's Edge (call it the Warden?) siloing more on their Focus Spells (or provide Wave Casting, maybe? Since they get scaling spellcasting proficiency,) would be nice as well, but I imagine it's far too late on that boat. Providing an initial Focus Spell that works with their Hunted Target and scales with level would be a good start in my opinion, perhaps when they make a new installment.

Pathfinder guns are breach loaders with paper cartridges according to guns and gears

This is correct.

Firearms on Modern Golarion
Today, firearms are still relatively uncommon across Golarion, and only available from less than a handful of sources in the Inner Sea. However, magic and clockwork technologies have advanced and evolved firearm innovations in unique and remarkable ways only possible on a world like Golarion. While many of the firearms currently produced in Golarion share names and basic functions with counterparts from Earth’s history, they often feature mechanisms that weren’t uncovered until later in our history and refinements that never happened or never proliferated. On Earth, such firearms were discarded predominantly in favor of more advanced technology that Golarion has not yet discovered how to reproduce or has had no need to replicate.

In Alkenstar, most firearms are crafted with a flintlock firing mechanism and folding breech, a hinged barrel that allows the weapon to be quickly opened and reloaded with new prepackaged paper cartridges of powder and shot. Alkenstar also hosts a thriving industry of smiths who focus their ingenuity and creativity on singular elements of firearms, such as specialized firing mechanisms and scopes both magical and scientific in nature and function.

Most of the guns in the Inner Sea are variations similar to the M1819 Hall rifle from our history, a flintlock breech-loader that fell out of use due to both expense and the advent of percussion ignition.

In Dongun Hold, the steady and methodical process of iteration and refinement continues, spurred on by a determination not to be shown up by their human neighbors in Alkenstar and to retain their reputation
as the preeminent gunsmiths on Golarion. The scatterguns produced in Dongun Hold are some of the most powerful and sought-after firearms in the Inner Sea, using a simple but ingenious clockwork system built directly into the weapon to eject a firing tray that wielders can load with powder and shot and then quickly prep to fire with minimal effort.

I’m not sure baking in more spellcasting is a universally populat approach. I often see calls for a Spell-less Ranger.

Rangers are inherently spell-less, just like monks. But now if you choose to take ranger spells, your proficiency actually scales (also like monks), instead of staying perpetually frozen at trained and making the warden spells that allow the target a save borderline traps that quickly fall out of usefulness.

aobst128 wrote:

Pathfinder guns are breach loaders with paper cartridges according to guns and gears

Looked it up and I am not seeing that anywhere. Arquebuses are muzzle loaders, flintlocks are muzzle loaders, etc. The only ones that seem like breech loaders are the repeating weapons.

Page 148. It's probably not on AON as it's a lore section but I've got the book in front of me.

"In Alkenstar, most firearms are crafted with a flintlock firing mechanism and folding breech, a hinged barrel that allows the weapon to be quickly opened and reloaded with new prepackaged paper cartridges of powder and shot."

As a side note, breech loaded flintlocks exist irl. They were just rare. Golarian gun history is just different from ours which this section of the book emphasizes. Also, the breech ejectors consumable suggest your flintlocks are breech loaded if you want mechanics.

Michael beat me to it lmao

I'm curious.

If spells are now "baked into" the class - does that mean the idea of a non-magical ranger is no longer available, or is it still a choice in character creation to pick or not pick having spells?

Not being a spell user was a main point of appeal for me for the PF2E ranger. My mental 'headspace' of the ranger is as a ranger. As in, a special forces type of combat unit. While that isn't everyone's ideal so it's good to have the variety, it's also good to have the variety. ;)

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

I’m not sure baking in more spellcasting is a universally populat approach. I often see calls for a Spell-less Ranger.

Rangers are inherently spell-less, just like monks. But now if you choose to take ranger spells, your proficiency actually scales (also like monks), instead of staying perpetually frozen at trained and making the warden spells that allow the target a save borderline traps that quickly fall out of usefulness.

Oh ok. That was bot clear in the blog post. Good to know. We get the choice.

Level 16 seems comically late for Warden Reload. That looks like the kind of basic functionality feat you'd see at level 4.

At 4th level you'd be competing against Advanced Warden for the next tier of warden spells and Running Reload. At 6th you'd be competing against Masterful Warden, Skirmish Strike, or Snap Shot. Then things like Deadly Aim and Peerless Warden, Warden's Focus, etc.

Where a class feat lands isn't just about the feat's power (though a free action reload that can append onto any of your warden spells regardless of how many actions they are is arguably notably more potent than most other action economy compressors, which are generally very specific), but also how it makes sense in various class builds available and where it fits to make building a character natural and intuitive in a way that helps guide new and less crunch-oriented players through the process of making effective characters.

People also have a deep aversion to choosing lower level options for their higher level feat slots, so the ranger has a variety of efficiency options available across the whole breadth of their level span to allow players to customize their routines. A precision or outwit ranger using a crossbow likely wants to use a variety of action economy compressors; it's not like you only take Running Reload, you have the option to take e.g Running Reload, Skirmish Strike, and Warden's Reload (or several other possible combinations of feats) so that every action you take is really multiple actions. Or maybe you don't take Running Reload at all because that's a level where you get your next tier of warden spells and you want to focus on gaining new spellcasting options at every level where it's available to you. The spread of feats at each level is designed to give you a variety of options for taking your build in different directions, without crowding the space with too many feats that are trying to do similar things by different vectors.

At 16th level (ignoring melee-oriented feats), you're choosing between Greater Distracting Shot, Legendary Monster Hunter, a companion upgrade, or a free action reload every time you cast a spell that essentially means you can cast and fire every turn for the average length of an entire combat, just like someone using a shortbow, but with a weapon that's two die sizes larger and has nearly twice the range. Combine that with the other action compressors available at lower levels and you're rarely going to take fewer than 4 distinct actions a turn, maybe as many as 6 (not including quickened), and generally all with multiple ways to deploy your action economy while controlling your engagement range and retaining a steady offense.

The new warden spells aught to be good if casting them for three rounds is a good idea. With master casting one level later, could be fun if there's good offensive spells.

The new warden spells aught to be good if casting them for three rounds is a good idea. With master casting one level later, could be fun if there's good offensive spells.

With books like Howl of the Wild on the schedule, I have a sneaking suspicion they might expand pretty quickly in the near future, too...

At 4th level you'd be competing against Advanced Warden for the next tier of warden spells and Running Reload. At 6th you'd be competing against Masterful Warden, Skirmish Strike, or Snap Shot. Then things like Deadly Aim and Peerless Warden, Warden's Focus, etc.

Snip

Is Advanced Warden a prerequisite for Masterful Warden? Is there any prequisites for higher level warden spells? Or can I pick and choose whatever slots of warden spells I want without needing others I don’t want?

Michael Sayre wrote:

At 4th level you'd be competing against Advanced Warden for the next tier of warden spells and Running Reload. At 6th you'd be competing against Masterful Warden, Skirmish Strike, or Snap Shot. Then things like Deadly Aim and Peerless Warden, Warden's Focus, etc.

Snip

Is Advanced Warden a prerequisite for Masterful Warden? Is there any prequisites for higher level warden spells? Or can I pick and choose whatever slots of warden spells I want without needing others I don’t want?

Advanced, Masterful, and Peerless Warden all only require Initiate Warden as a prereq, so you can skip over tiers of spells if there's nothing you want there, as long as you took that first feat to gain focus spells.

Sidenote as someone who is playing inventor with snarecrafter, snarecrafter archetype is REALLY powerful because it has versatility of allowing you to place snares in combat :'D

Like biggest problem with ranger's snare abilities was that they kinda assumed the normal hunting scenario of "you put down snares and lay ambush" which is problem when pcs are often expected to head to new locations and dungeons full of enemies...

But yeah so bit confused, heavy crossbow is still simple weapon, arbalest ins martial weapon, difference is that latter has 10 feet less range but has backstabber? Does backstabber really increase overall damage that much?

But yeah so bit confused, heavy crossbow is still simple weapon, arbalest ins martial weapon, difference is that latter has 10 feet less range but has backstabber? Does backstabber really increase overall damage that much?

Heavy crossbow is reload 2, arbalest is reload 1.

Ah thanks, thats something I missed :D

The comparison would be with the repeating heavy crossbow which the arbalest will come out on top in most encounters

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

I’m not sure baking in more spellcasting is a universally populat approach. I often see calls for a Spell-less Ranger.

Rangers are inherently spell-less, just like monks. But now if you choose to take ranger spells, your proficiency actually scales (also like monks), instead of staying perpetually frozen at trained and making the warden spells that allow the target a save borderline traps that quickly fall out of usefulness.

Ah. Yes I see now. Focus spells. I think I was thrown by this:

…we’ve baked the spellcasting progression directly into the ranger’s core chassis…

but this just means that the core chassis is ready and willing to support spellcasting if you choose focus spells. Right?

I see Rangers more with a bow than a crossbow. It's curious how PF wants the Ranger to use crossbows.

I feel kinda sad about the loss of snare support in the base ranger class, especially since i will no longer be able combine both the ranger class and the snarecrafter archetype...

Snares is the best part of being a ranger - Kaas, my kobold snarecrafter ranger

this just means that the core chassis is ready and willing to support spellcasting if you choose focus spells. Right?

I made this post earlier and Michael marked it as a favorite, so I think it is correct that you only get any spellcasting proficiency if you pick a focus spell.

I still say that Alkenstar using breechloaders does not mean Golarion only has breechloaders. But I'll drop that not need to argue about that.

Also thanks for answering Michael and aobst128.

Edit: No, Temp, you don't need Crossbow Crackshot, which is a bad fear because you have to reload the same turn you shoot to get the bonus. You want the Sniping Duo dedication. which gives you a circumstance bonus that will eventually outscale the old crossbow ace, lets you ignore lesser cover, and still benefit from backstabber.

Just going to say that still isn't quite the same. Sniping Duo locks you outnof other archetypes and require that the ally hits to get the benefit.

Yes it scales to +3 eventually. But Crossbow Ace was damage now and always.

Seems good overall. But mostly BIG thanks for making Snares a separate thing and for hopefully make them more useful as a combat tactic.

I hate the current snares, mostly due to my experience with a guy who really wanted to use these and we let him and we ended up feeling like we were fighting against both our enemies AND the snare guy.

From this bad and sad experience, I wish we will get a way or several for allies to avoid triggering snares.