Reports from the Field Part 2

"But then, Michael got greedy. He fired again. He misfired. Goodbye, arquebus."
what does this mean? is there some different misfire mechanic being used than in 2e? or was this just referring to the gun being gone for that turn/rnd?

I have a philosophical question about the ringtone spell.

Why are you going to the effort of reinventing soothe? Wasnt the whole point of using P2s chassis to not need to do double work like that?

I'll be interested to see how Operative differs from the crit-fishing Gunslinger... seems fun!

It's neat how much the feel of a game can change when ranged attacks are the status quo. The gunslinger sounds like he had fun--good news for compatibility!--but man, I'm chomping at the bit for more SF-exclusive goodies.

Question for SF1 players: what was the operative's deal, exactly? I heard something about it being kind of a space rogue, but also a little OP? Also, what witchwarper do?

Isn't 2e misfire mechanic just "if you use ability that says you misfire on fail or if you forgot to clean your guns on previous day and roll crit fail"?

yep, then it's 1 action to clear it

Isn't 2e misfire mechanic just "if you use ability that says you misfire on fail or if you forgot to clean your guns on previous day and roll crit fail"?

Yeah its exceptionally rare, usually when you use risky reload.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1649

Misfires

Firearms that are improperly maintained or subjected to unusual strain can misfire. If you attempt to fire a firearm that was fired the previous day or earlier and hasn't been cleaned since then, roll a DC 5 flat check before making your attack roll. If you fail this misfire check, the weapon misfires and jams. The attack is an automatic critical failure, and you must use an Interact action to clear the jam before you can reload the weapon and fire again. Once you have spent at least an hour cleaning a weapon, you don't need to roll for a misfire until the next day unless an effect says otherwise. You can clean multiple firearms during this hour, up to a reasonable limit as determined by the GM (typically no more than five).

Some abilities cause a weapon to misfire as part of their effects. If such a misfire happens as a result of an attack (due to an action that causes a misfire on a failed attack, for example), it retroactively makes the attack a critical failure.

I have a philosophical question about the ringtone spell.

Why are you going to the effort of reinventing soothe? Wasnt the whole point of using P2s chassis to not need to do double work like that?

I have a feeling its "similar but different" - it also feels like it'll be less keyed to the occult. It might even be a focus spell, being that this mystic's connection seems to be akin to the Melophile mystic which is all about healing through song.

I have a philosophical question about the ringtone spell.

Why are you going to the effort of reinventing soothe? Wasnt the whole point of using P2s chassis to not need to do double work like that?

I'm assuming they meant that soothe was currently a placeholder and motivating ringtone was meant to be a slightly different spell that worked similar to soothe.

Question for SF1 players: what was the operative's deal, exactly? I heard something about it being kind of a space rogue, but also a little OP? Also, what witchwarper do?

A. Operative's deal was skill monkey everyman. James Bond. Agent 47. Ethan Hunt. Most Jason Statham characters that wouldn't be outright soldiers. They're good at many skills (like a rogue) but had a specific specialization that they focused on that catered their flavor. Evil Knievel daredevil? Secret agent spy man? Hackerboi? Street Thug? Vehicular murder driver? Acrobat? All different flavors of operative.

Instead of sneak attacks, their core combat look was a 1-trick pony trick attacks which were essentially a full-round (read: 3 action) skill check+attack roll that inflicted off-guard in addition to bonus damage (and a lasting debuff all turn after 5th level)

They're viewed as OP because despite being boring as sin, they're incredibly reliable at damage dealing and debuffing, and their universal skill bonuses outside of combat meant an operative that was Dex+Int focused likely rivaled or excelled at every skill in the game.

In truth, they're not OP, they were just good across the board at dang near everything, which allows the bad type of player to monopolize the table and let their main character syndrome run wild.

B. Witchwarper's whole thing is whacking out reality. In SF1e they got drastically nerfed after playtests and so I can't really say what their deal is in 2e, but think any of your precognitive types (as the precog class is folding in) or people like Dr. Strange, that's the thematic fit. Both WW and Precog were casters, precog with some interesting malleability of weapon proficiency and a top-of-day preroll dice pool that can be substutited for other rolls (paradoxes) while WW had the ability to burn spell slots to interpose intriguing environmental effects on the area (Infinte worlds) that was usually a worse option than just casting the spell itself.

I have a philosophical question about the ringtone spell.

Why are you going to the effort of reinventing soothe? Wasnt the whole point of using P2s chassis to not need to do double work like that?

Motivating Ringtone is different than soothe. We just used it as "Soothe-Adjacent" here. The current version we're working with since this playtest has evolved... but would still create the same hilarious moment we had in this playtest!

"But then, Michael got greedy. He fired again. He misfired. Goodbye, arquebus."

what does this mean? is there some different misfire mechanic being used than in 2e? or was this just referring to the gun being gone for that turn/rnd?

I was being cheeky and joking. It was still an action to unjam it, but it caused some action economy issues that the operative just didn't need to deal with in comparison. In fact, Mike Sayre dropped his gun and swapped to a backup thinking he couldn't possibly do worse... he did worse :D

"Oh no, the gunslinger doesn't have a cell phone!!!" is one of my favorite lines of in-game dialogue, no lie.

dharkus wrote:

"But then, Michael got greedy. He fired again. He misfired. Goodbye, arquebus."

what does this mean? is there some different misfire mechanic being used than in 2e? or was this just referring to the gun being gone for that turn/rnd?

I was being cheeky and joking. It was still an action to unjam it, but it caused some action economy issues that the operative just didn't need to deal with in comparison. In fact, Mike Sayre dropped his gun and swapped to a backup thinking he couldn't possibly do worse... he did worse :D

Rather than give up the action clearing the jam, I used Instant Backup to swap to my dragon mouth pistol; we were deep into the fight that I thought it would be more useful to keep shooting and pushing towards as swift an end as we could manage. Which made a ton of sense right up until I misfired on my first Risky Reload with the pistol...

"Oh no, the gunslinger doesn't have a cell phone!!!" is one of my favorite lines of in-game dialogue, no lie.

Who doesn’t give the primitive timetraveller here to fight space fascists a phone, or at least an ear-piece/comm unit? Sounds like inefficient use of available resources. Rookie error.

Rue Dickey wrote:

"Oh no, the gunslinger doesn't have a cell phone!!!" is one of my favorite lines of in-game dialogue, no lie.

Who doesn’t give the primitive timetraveller here to fight space fascists a phone, or at least an ear-piece/comm unit? Sounds like inefficient use of available resources. Rookie error.

You ever had to teach a grand parent how to use a phone? Now, imagine that, but they dont even know what a radio is. Also the phone is built with technology thousands of years in our future and is being used by people who for generations, literally cant remember the time when they didn't have hand held phones and have probably never had to teach anyone how to use one. Even spending time in Numeria would not prepare the time traveler for all this honestly.

eddv wrote:

I have a philosophical question about the ringtone spell.

Why are you going to the effort of reinventing soothe? Wasnt the whole point of using P2s chassis to not need to do double work like that?

Motivating Ringtone is different than soothe. We just used it as "Soothe-Adjacent" here. The current version we're working with since this playtest has evolved... but would still create the same hilarious moment we had in this playtest!

Somehow it made me think of another magic tradition, linked to technology and scifi-magic.

Yeah, Fatal is... well... fatal.

It seems like a lot of the balance was down to technology.

If Michael had been equipped with Jennys gun do you think you would have come to these same conclusions regarding the balance? Because it sounds like all the nrgatives for him boiled down to the single shot weapons.

Yeah, that was a very, very exceptional performance for the gunslinger, I wouldn't read too much into that. It could just as well have been: First turn, Risky Reload... miss and there goes the entire turn. Or he has to switch - as he did later - to an inferior weapon. He shoots a second time, maybe still hits, but does only minor damage. Likely with an even greater chance than that crit. That was some impressive luck and good thinking from Michael... followed by "karma" on a delay ^^. Even the dice roller knew that wasn't ok ;).

But the mobile cover aspect of the Soldier sounds like a great avenue to explore. Options to improve this aspect of helping your allies would be awesome.

AoE threats being more common and thus positioning being even more important sounds promising as well.

Good stuff!

It seems like a lot of the balance was down to technology.

If Michael had been equipped with Jennys gun do you think you would have come to these same conclusions regarding the balance? Because it sounds like all the nrgatives for him boiled down to the single shot weapons.

This is honestly one of the things that's going to make crossover PF2E characters interesting is seeing how those characters interact with a system that's much more gear dependent (assuming gear works anything like SF1E). Vice versa, how viable will SF2E characters be in lower-tech PF games? Sone classes like mystics or solarians might cross easily, but others won't.

Is there going to be a way for a gunslinger to become proficient with future space guns? How will those future space guns interact with their class features? This set of encounters is interesting to look at in isolation, but I wonder at long term viability of characters from either system crossing over.

eddv wrote:

It seems like a lot of the balance was down to technology.

If Michael had been equipped with Jennys gun do you think you would have come to these same conclusions regarding the balance? Because it sounds like all the nrgatives for him boiled down to the single shot weapons.

This is honestly one of the things that's going to make crossover PF2E characters interesting is seeing how those characters interact with a system that's much more gear dependent (assuming gear works anything like SF1E). Vice versa, how viable will SF2E characters be in lower-tech PF games? Sone classes like mystics or solarians might cross easily, but others won't.

Is there going to be a way for a gunslinger to become proficient with future space guns? How will those future space guns interact with their class features? This set of encounters is interesting to look at in isolation, but I wonder at long term viability of characters from either system crossing over.

[I have no idea how well you know PF2, so I'm answering so hopefully everybody can understand]

Some of these questions we can almost certainly answer already. The system only distinguishes between three types of weapon proficiency (from worst to best) - simple, martial and advanced. And as seen in the field test, all weapons fall into one of these categories, just as in PF2. So really the only thing that prevents a regular PF2 martial from picking up a stellar cannon is availability. And how far you can stretch what makes sense for your character, but that isn't part of the mechanics. It's the same game with armor expect maybe power armor. And other stuff doesn't usually function on proficiency, so that would translate well. Abilities might be a problem, as PF2 ranged Feats (think class tricks) aren't really designed with modern guns in mind.

It would work just the same the other way around (SF2 character in PF2), though I think the weapons will cause more problems. Bows make for a decent equivalent to SF2 assault rifles (minus automatic fire), so that might work. But certain weapon types just don't exist - there are no area weapons in PF2, so the Soldier will have a major problem. Some creative reflavoring might be required to make that work, but magic guns exist in PF2 already. When you have a weapon that eats and fires the souls of your enemies, one that shoots magic exploding balls isn't exactly a stretch.

The real clincher isn't gear, it is the different approaches to combat the two games will have. SF2 characters will be fine in PF2, as they just have to fill in for the ranged party member. A lot of PF2 classes are very focused on melee and aren't that inherently mobile, so they'll have more problems in that regard. Unless it's hallway fights like these, in which case they will just rip your face off like usual.

The Gunslinger is interesting in that it might be the class that translates the least well RAW, ironically. At least if you want to use SF2 gear. So much of it's class chassis and abilities are bound up in how PF2 guns work (or rather, don't work). Most notably is their proficiency - in addition to having the broad categories above, it is better at martial firearms and crossbows. Those are weapon groups (e.g. sword, spear, bow,...etc.), which is (usually) separate from proficiency. So far SF2 has the "laser" and "projectile" groups, which is different, so the Gunslinger isn't better at those. That, among other things, makes the Gunslinger basically pointless.

[Welp, as usual, this went on for way longer than intended, sry XD]

It seems like a lot of the balance was down to technology.

If Michael had been equipped with Jennys gun do you think you would have come to these same conclusions regarding the balance? Because it sounds like all the nrgatives for him boiled down to the single shot weapons.

Thing is, a lot of the gunslinger's Cool Stuff is built around mitigating the costs of those single-shot weapons. I'd expect that if you hand them a more Starfindery gun, they actually wouldn't do as well.

They're also very swingy. They get better proficiencies than anyone else (other than the fighter) and a lot of those archaic firearms come with traits that grant extra damage on crits. So when they roll particularly well they can do a lot of damage, but when they roll mediocre or poorly, the results tend to be a bit anemic.

Thing is, a lot of the gunslinger's Cool Stuff is built around mitigating the costs of those single-shot weapons. I'd expect that if you hand them a more Starfindery gun, they actually wouldn't do as well.

They're also very swingy. They get better proficiencies than anyone else (other than the fighter) and a lot of those archaic firearms come with traits that grant extra damage on crits. So when they roll particularly well they can do a lot of damage, but when they roll mediocre or poorly, the results tend to be a bit anemic.

Very much this. Of all the martial classes in PF2 except the Investigator, Gunslinger is probably the most feast-and-famine by far. Emphasis on the famine, unfortunately. As you would expect of a class that has to crit to get any meaningful damage in. Sorry, Michael :/

It'd be interesting to see how some of the more grounded PF2 options would work here. That would also give a more realistic comparison point.

To clarify a bit more: the idea here is that we wanted to test the Gunslinger Vs. the Operative in the sense of "do these classes feel different and have different vibes", which we feel like we succeeded at. The gunslinger being very swingy in terms of how it operates in combat is FINE, and in fact one of the Operative goals was to have it be a less swingy class (but one that still benefits if it gets off a headshot or the like). It wasn't to really just see an overall mesh of how PF2 classes operate in SF2, because that's not necessarily part of our overall design goals—we're making these games compatible, but want SF2 to be its own game and not just balanced entirely around existing PF2 options.

Gunslinger Vs. Operative is just a very basic question we knew we'd be asked, and wanted to get some play data to see how they worked in tandem and if there was a different play experience.

Thank you for these illuminating passages on the internal playtesting. I am really enjoying them.

Of all the martial classes in PF2 except the Investigator, Gunslinger is probably the most feast-and-famine by far. Emphasis on the famine, unfortunately.

*Shakes head*

Swashbuckler.

To clarify a bit more: the idea here is that we wanted to test the Gunslinger Vs. the Operative in the sense of "do these classes feel different and have different vibes", which we feel like we succeeded at. The gunslinger being very swingy in terms of how it operates in combat is FINE, and in fact one of the Operative goals was to have it be a less swingy class (but one that still benefits if it gets off a headshot or the like). It wasn't to really just see an overall mesh of how PF2 classes operate in SF2, because that's not necessarily part of our overall design goals—we're making these games compatible, but want SF2 to be its own game and not just balanced entirely around existing PF2 options.

Gunslinger Vs. Operative is just a very basic question we knew we'd be asked, and wanted to get some play data to see how they worked in tandem and if there was a different play experience.

Ah, that makes much more sense ^^

I thought archaic weapons like black-powder guns were supposed to take massive penalties against modern armor.

Any comments on when we might get to see some more playtest stuff for SF2?

I thought archaic weapons like black-powder guns were supposed to take massive penalties against modern armor.

We played the game with the assumption that magically-enhanced equipment would bypass the Resistance. Right now, the team is heavily considering just moving the archaic rules more into an optional thing for groups who want that realism.

thistledown wrote:

I thought archaic weapons like black-powder guns were supposed to take massive penalties against modern armor.

We played the game with the assumption that magically-enhanced equipment would bypass the Resistance. Right now, the team is heavily considering just moving the archaic rules more into an optional thing for groups who want that realism.

If I can offer some insight as someone running a game with a bunch of Starfinder 1e characters making their way through Pathfinder 1e adventures, this is exactly how I settled things. It does a good job of letting them feel like their fancy sci-if gear meant something at the lower levels against enemies wielding nonmagical archaic weapons while still allowing higher level threats to be serious threats.

So the cell phone healing won't work on PFS2 characters (unless they equip themselves accordingly when entering the SFS2 world) or Cognates who attempt to avoid tech solutions whenever possible. Got it.

Any comments on when we might get to see some more playtest stuff for SF2?

Early October is the current plan. The Operative Field Test, given the previous blog post.

retrogmray wrote:

Any comments on when we might get to see some more playtest stuff for SF2?

Early October is the current plan. The Operative Field Test, given the previous blog post.

It's not the operative.

Karmagator wrote:

retrogmray wrote:

Any comments on when we might get to see some more playtest stuff for SF2?

Early October is the current plan. The Operative Field Test, given the previous blog post.

It's not the operative.

Too bad, but I'm patient ^^. Any info is good info, as far as my greedy brain is concerned :D. Maybe something from the caster side, as we have already seen the martial one?

So the cell phone healing won't work on PFS2 characters (unless they equip themselves accordingly when entering the SFS2 world) or Cognates who attempt to avoid tech solutions whenever possible. Got it.

Not everything that the game developers run in their own personal games is going to become an official rule.

They get to play too.

Based on what we know, the next Field Test is almost certainly the Mystic. The original announcement said that they were still locking down specifics for the Envoy and the Solarian. There is of course room for things to have changed since then, but I'd put my money on the Mystic if I had to put money on anything.

Based on what we know, the next Field Test is almost certainly the Mystic. The original announcement said that they were still locking down specifics for the Envoy and the Solarian. There is of course room for things to have changed since then, but I'd put my money on the Mystic if I had to put money on anything.

Mystic seems like the best call, and it'd be a great opportunity to showcase some futuristic spells (like Harmonizing Ringtone, for example).

I'm waiting with bated breath for that Solarian, but the Mystic's apparent similarities to the old Vitalist have me terribly excited.

The number of people online who don't even allow Gunslingers in the pf2e game who have used this blog to 'prove' the intent to make both games the same in an endless crossover style fusion has been a lot. Thank you for clarifying.

So the cell phone healing won't work on PFS2 characters (unless they equip themselves accordingly when entering the SFS2 world) or Cognates who attempt to avoid tech solutions whenever possible. Got it.

"I carry extra datapads specifically to give to primiti..erm. technologically declined helpful aliens when I land on their planet. very few locals will follow you into the dungeon, but if they get to keep a datapad and a few terrabytes of off world music and a few seasons of The Necromancer they'll gladly translate for you, explain local customs, and let the other locals know you come in peace over Video. Can't cast share language on EVERY local you want to talk to... "

Based on what we know, the next Field Test is almost certainly the Mystic. The original announcement said that they were still locking down specifics for the Envoy and the Solarian. There is of course room for things to have changed since then, but I'd put my money on the Mystic if I had to put money on anything.

Based on what I saw Thursty saying on the Discord last week, I'm almost certain it's Solarion.

I just want to know if Starfinder 2e will have shotguns, l'm a big fan of them.

I just want to know if Starfinder 2e will have shotguns, l'm a big fan of them.

Oooh, yeah - ideally with both shells (area effect) and slugs (single-target) as ammo options on the same weapon... and there ought to be a reason to build a Soldier who uses one as her weapon of choice.

Evan Tarlton wrote:

Based on what we know, the next Field Test is almost certainly the Mystic. The original announcement said that they were still locking down specifics for the Envoy and the Solarian. There is of course room for things to have changed since then, but I'd put my money on the Mystic if I had to put money on anything.

Based on what I saw Thursty saying on the Discord last week, I'm almost certain it's Solarion.

Which Discord?

I just want to know if Starfinder 2e will have shotguns, l'm a big fan of them.

There were shotguns in the first Field Test document for starfinder 2e.

Simple weapon shotguns to boot! Here's hoping they have a cooler martial version on release... maybe with some kind of modular attack method to represent switching between shot and slugs.

Xenocrat wrote:

Evan Tarlton wrote:

Based on what we know, the next Field Test is almost certainly the Mystic. The original announcement said that they were still locking down specifics for the Envoy and the Solarian. There is of course room for things to have changed since then, but I'd put my money on the Mystic if I had to put money on anything.

Based on what I saw Thursty saying on the Discord last week, I'm almost certain it's Solarion.

Which Discord?

https://discord.gg/starfinder