Delve The Mountain Deep!

Quest for Highhelm!

A second read got me thinking. Koldukar is now the main orc city, right? So when Taargick writes "I have no fear of us ever losing them to our foes". This is kinda sad because that's exactly what happened. I need to read the world guide again.

A delightfully somber introduction; can't wait to read this book.

Do you like this format of pulling an intro and images directly from the book?

Do you like this format of pulling an intro and images directly for the book?

Absolutely!

I love the storytelling, rather than the rulestelling.

Is this that letter from Taagrick that Anong Arunak is keeping secret? The one that apologizes to the orcs and would split the Dwarven population were it ever to become public?

I'm really looking forward to digging through this and filling out my character's backstory.

Is this that letter from Taagrick that Anong Arunak is keeping secret? The one that apologizes to the orcs and would split the Dwarven population were it ever to become public?

This is indeed the letter. It lies in a special chamber, and the High King is the only person in Highhelm who knows about it.

I wonder what deep shameful secrets of the dwarven people lie hidden in the bowels of the sky citadel Koldukar, aka Urgir, main settlement and center of power of the Hold of Belkzen.

I adore this book. My physical copy arrived two days ago, the free poster map was a pleasant surprise. The lore and art is absolutely amazing.

I appreciated the confirmation that the old "10 Sky Citadels" number refers specifically to the Inner Sea.

Still waiting on my physical copy (but that's Can'tada Post for ya), so I've been going over the PDF constantly since I downloaded it.

Do you like this format of pulling an intro and images directly from the book?

I do. I'll admit that sometimes I'll skim over the introduction in the book proper, generally if the book has some rumored item or archetype or ancestry I'm really excited to read, so having it presented here front and center is a good way to make me read it, and also get hyped for the book.

I received my physical copy yesterday and I notice that the artwork in the printed book is a lot tonally darker than the digital artwork. The content is great but the something went wrong printing the artwork.

Am I understanding correctly that the Dwarves religious quest for sky led to them assaulting every enclave of Orcs above them, forcing them to move at axe point until they were forced into the Surface world?

Am I understanding correctly that the Dwarves religious quest for sky led to them assaulting every enclave of Orcs above them, forcing them to move at axe point until they were forced into the Surface world?

Yup. That's pretty much always been true in PF canon.

Am I understanding correctly that the Dwarves religious quest for sky led to them assaulting every enclave of Orcs above them, forcing them to move at axe point until they were forced into the Surface world?

We do not have all the details of the historical interactions, but the end result sounds like this. Especially when considering that AFAIK Orcs are not that common in the Darklands nowadays.

Am I understanding correctly that the Dwarves religious quest for sky led to them assaulting every enclave of Orcs above them, forcing them to move at axe point until they were forced into the Surface world?

That’s how Lost Omens: Legends basically describes it.

While Dwarves are probably largely to blame for the present issue of Orcs on the surface, Orcs are such a small portion of the "average" problems when you consider goblins, hobgoblins, fey, monstrous magical animals, etc.

While Dwarves are probably largely to blame for the present issue of Orcs on the surface, Orcs are such a small portion of the "average" problems when you consider goblins, hobgoblins, fey, monstrous magical animals, etc.

Why are we describing multiple playable Ancestries as "issues" and "problems," especially in a conversation about their present origin as victims of a genocide?

Hobgoblins and Orcs have been part of bloody wars in Avistan, but so too have Humans and Dwarves - it's weird to talk about some of them like they're vermin and others like they're people.

Well, because Orcs are generally presented as antagonist to players. And if someone was curious how Orcs came to be a problem, the answer would be because the Dwarves drove them to the surface.

You're reading for more into my words than I have actually written. Thanks for being rude about it.

I was saying that despite what has happened to the Orcs, and the characterization of Orcs as problems (and at least some, like Belkzen are) they only represent one of many threats.

In the blog above, this stood out to me:

"While **Highhelm wasn’t the first Sky Citadel,** it has proven itself arguably the most important and certainly the most influential."

Wasn't the first Sky Citadel?

I picked up the World Guide recently, reading about Five Kings Mountains the other night and, I see this on p.125, third sentence under the header "Five Kings Mountains,"

"Thus they built Highhelm, the **first** and greatest of their Sky Citadels..."

So - is this an intentional canon change, making Highhelm no longer the **first** sky citadel?

Since there are Sky Citadels on completely different continents, it's kind of impossible to verify whether or not which ones separated by tens of thousands of miles was "first".

"Impossible"? I doubt that.

Finally got my physical copy, though I don't notice any issues with the art that have been reported by some others. Happy to finally have the actual book instead of just a PDF.

Well, because Orcs are generally presented as antagonist to players.

In Pathfinder, since when?

Not being snarky, we had the first issue of Giantslayer and that one standalone adventure where they had infernal backing, but "generally presented as antagonist" hasn't been true for awhile, if it was even really true in P1 either.

Well, because Orcs are generally presented as antagonist to players. And if someone was curious how Orcs came to be a problem, the answer would be because the Dwarves drove them to the surface.

You're reading for more into my words than I have actually written. Thanks for being rude about it.

I was saying that despite what has happened to the Orcs, and the characterization of Orcs as problems (and at least some, like Belkzen are) they only represent one of many threats.

So I would just like point that the person who asked about Orcs didn't ask about them in context of them being a "problem."

And in just for confirmation that they are on the surface due to the dwarves aggression, and seeing how the general vibe of the blog, thread, and plot point is how the Dwarves were an aggressor in a genocide, and that their current location on the surface is as victims of said genocide. In that context it really does feel weird and concerning to see someone talking about them as a "problem."

Edit: i'm also not saying you intended for it to be read like that or anything. I'm just trying to hopefully provide some clarification.

It is possible for a group to be victims of an atrocity and to still be hostile toward most other people.

And for those who want to say Orcs haven't been painted as antagonists, these is the description of the book Orcs of Golarion (PF1):
"Feel the blood spray and bones crunch as the bestial children of the Darklands come roaring across the landscape, leaving only carnage and lamentation in their wake! Orcs are some of the oldest enemies of civilization, their howling hordes beaten back time and again by the forces of light. Yet in addition to being depraved raiders, orcs are also a civilization unto themselves, with a war-torn history stretching back before the Age of Darkness."

Even Paizo wrote the Orcs as a hostile group toward the larger world.

Now I will say, I don't know all lore surrounding Golarion and I believe Paizo has probably been building towards making the Orcs of Golarion less carnage causing brutes and providing a more nuanced representation.

But it doesn't help that the only primarily Orc society/city/culture that I know of is Belkzen, a chaotic evil nation.

And Belkzen is a bulwark against the Whispering Tyrant, that’s the exact opposite of antagonist.

OoG, which was one of the first write ups for Pathfinder 1st edition and is misnamed, it’s basically Orcs of Belkzen since it doesn’t cover any other Orcs and Belkzen is the smallest orc settlement/country/grouping on Golarion . Orcs are being added as Core Ancestry, we’ve had all of two adventures where they’re the main antagonist. Humans and Hobgoblins are more antagonistic than them.

So “generally presented as antagonist” doesn’t really apply.

When I say presented as antagonist to the players I don't mean that they are the primary subject of an AP.

I mean the setting sets them up generally speaking as enemies, not as allies, or even neutrals. Belkzen being a wall between the Whispering Tyrant and other places doesn't minimize their unfriendly nature toward others.

Perhaps I've missed new lore to the contrary. Can you help me out with some links to other primarily orc settlements/countries?

When I say presented as antagonist to the players I don't mean that they are the primary subject of an AP.

I mean the setting sets them up generally speaking as enemies, not as allies, or even neutrals. Belkzen being a wall between the Whispering Tyrant and other places doesn't minimize their unfriendly nature toward others.

Perhaps I've missed new lore to the contrary. Can you help me out with some links to other primarily orc settlements/countries?

The wiki doesn't have half the detail that the Mwangi Expanse book does, but the Matanji orcs of the Mwangi Expanse are probably the best example right now. They're a substantial force in the Expanse, get along well with the vast majority of their neighbours, and are primarily known for their demon-hunting activities. For a less fleshed-out example, we know the Arcadian orcs get along well with their dwarvern allies, who didn't commit a genocide as they attempted their own Quest for the Sky.

In addition to that, even the Belkzen orcs have always had an ongoing plotline about becoming less aggressive to the rest of the world - we had someone who was almost a reformer in power in PF1, trying to ensure trade was safely occurring with outside forces, and now in PF2 we have the leadership actively attempting to form alliances where required to help fight the Whispering Tyrant. Orcs of Golarion definitely presented them as savage, primitive, and aggressive - but it's a very old book, and Paizo has been moving away from that for some time.

Belkzen, Hold of the Orc Hordes has been out since 2015. IIRC it is where we found about the tribe worshipping Sarenrae (the Burning Sun).

Mwangi Orcs are brave demon-hunters highly sought after. See the LO : Mwangi expanse book (published in 2021) for more information on them.

Ninjaed.

Claxon wrote:

When I say presented as antagonist to the players I don't mean that they are the primary subject of an AP.

I mean the setting sets them up generally speaking as enemies, not as allies, or even neutrals. Belkzen being a wall between the Whispering Tyrant and other places doesn't minimize their unfriendly nature toward others.

Perhaps I've missed new lore to the contrary. Can you help me out with some links to other primarily orc settlements/countries?

The wiki doesn't have half the detail that the Mwangi Expanse book does, but the Matanji orcs of the Mwangi Expanse are probably the best example right now. They're a substantial force in the Expanse, get along well with the vast majority of their neighbours, and are primarily known for their demon-hunting activities. For a less fleshed-out example, we know the Arcadian orcs get along well with their dwarvern allies, who didn't commit a genocide as they attempted their own Quest for the Sky.

In addition to that, even the Belkzen orcs have always had an ongoing plotline about becoming less aggressive to the rest of the world - we had someone who was almost a reformer in power in PF1, trying to ensure trade was safely occurring with outside forces, and now in PF2 we have the leadership actively attempting to form alliances where required to help fight the Whispering Tyrant. Orcs of Golarion definitely presented them as savage, primitive, and aggressive - but it's a very old book, and Paizo has been moving away from that for some time.

That's some good info.

I was only familiar with Orcs of Golarion and completely unaware of the other Mantanji orcs. I suspected Paizo was likely trying to write them in a way that moves away from those origins because they have generally been trying to do that with all sapient races, making it such that there are no ancestries that are outright represented as evil brutes.

Now to be honest, for certain games and play styles I do prefer that groups of enemies exist that you don't have to question if they're evil or what their intentions are, and I don't always want it to be extraplanar creatures. However, I also like some groups to have more nuanced existences.

Apart from Fiends and Undead, most groups of Evil enemies are based on their actual values and methods (ie, organizations) rather than on their nature (ie, Orcs, Elves ...).

The only mortal exceptions I see, for the moment, are creatures like Sekmin, Urdhefans and Alghollthu.

Apart from Fiends and Undead, most groups of Evil enemies are based on their actual values and methods (ie, organizations) rather than on their nature (ie, Orcs, Elves ...).

The only mortal exceptions I see, for the moment, are creatures like Sekmin, Urdhefans and Alghollthu.

Right, Paizo has been moving towards this sort of representation of sapients for a while. So I'm not surprised to see it, but if someone (like myself) were most familiar with primarily PF1 materials and especially the earlier stuff it would be easy to miss these movements being codified in new lore.

Apart from Fiends and Undead, most groups of Evil enemies are based on their actual values and methods (ie, organizations) rather than on their nature (ie, Orcs, Elves ...).

The only mortal exceptions I see, for the moment, are creatures like Sekmin, Urdhefans and Alghollthu.

A kindly alghollthu would be fun to encounter. I imagine they'd also be considered incurably insane by the rest of their kind because they can see other creatures as more than grist and crude material for the alghollthu to reshape.

The friendly kindly Alghollthu would require some considerable backstory to explain, since they're all born with like "the entire collective memory of their species up until the point where they started existing" so they have a lot of identical preconceptions.

Not saying you can't do it or that it wouldn't potentially be a fun story, but you have to figure out how that entity started out believing all the same things all the other Algollthu did, but changed their mind for some reason.

Orcs and goblins are in the Bestiary while humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings are not. I am curious to see if this holds true for the Monster Core books.

The friendly kindly Alghollthu would require some considerable backstory to explain, since they're all born with like "the entire collective memory of their species up until the point where they started existing" so they have a lot of identical preconceptions.

Not saying you can't do it or that it wouldn't potentially be a fun story, but you have to figure out how that entity started out believing all the same things all the other Algollthu did, but changed their mind for some reason.

There is still enough individuality within the Alghollthu that one of the Veiled Masters has been threatened with excommunication/annihilation by the collective network for being too ambitious/obvious/impatient. So I can completely see one becoming less Evil than the rest.

Thankfully, memories and prejudices do not condemn a creature to Evil. We have RL examples of this every day.

Am I the only one who's confused as to what exactly a "ruinous hand cannon" is as per the Gray Prince entry?

Am I the only one who's confused as to what exactly a "ruinous hand cannon" is as per the Gray Prince entry?

A hand cannon is what it sounds like; a hand-portable firearm with quick a kick. “Ruinous hand cannon” should basically translate to “really, really, really big pistol.”

Ruinous might also be some heretofore unknown rune.

Yeah in the entry it seems like it's a rune that just doesn't exist (the full entry being +1 striking ruinous hand cannon (Guns & Gears 151) with that page just being where the hand cannon is)

Orcs and goblins are in the Bestiary while humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings are not. I am curious to see if this holds true for the Monster Core books.

Some humans are. And also lizardfolk, kobolds and catfolk. In Bestiary 1: