Sanctioning Update: Adventure Paths

Hmmm, given that most villains are not trans and the fact that they are cis is not associated with or a cause of their villainess, I don’t understand why changing the villain to trans which would provide more examples of inclusion in the narrative would suddenly be associated with the cause of their villainess. To each their own, but it seems like an over-reaction to me. If we want fair and equal representation, we have to accept the representations appearing throughout character demographics not just ones perceived as “good.”

It think it might be a matter of the population and perceived population.

An RPG being a radio drama (not a visual medium to start with) by an untrained voice actor (AN, one, singular, untrained voice actor at that) makes a subtle and nuanced depiction of a 3 dimensional person who's trans that's visible as such to the players rather difficult. (See The Solstice Scar)

The villain however gets more screen time than anyone else (including some of the PCs probably). So it won't matter if the actual population of your NPC world is 999 cis townsfolk and 99 cis villians 9 trans townspeople and 1 trans villain, the perception will be that all the trans people are villains because all the trans people you've noticed were villains.

I'm not sure how you'd avoid that without running into claims of erasure, short of a scenario where you're in someones mind/soul like the many minds of historia , the blighted path or Between the lines

My question is if the main villain was homosexual, would that be an automatic example of being homophobic or just one aspect of their life?

My question is if the main villain was homosexual, would that be an automatic example of being homophobic or just one aspect of their life?

Used to, yes. For the longest time plenty of villains were queer coded to further enhance their villainy and degenerateness, to provoke revulsion.

Now, how much of it factors into the character.

Trans folk don’t have that “used to”, they’re still living it.

Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

GM Sasha wrote:

So, for clarification, the story of the scenario in and of itself is not transphobic, it is external context?

Pretty much. I mean there is a lot more to unpack about that context and why this particular representation is worse than some other variations on this theme. But yeah, basically. (That said, there are also far *worse* variations on this theme. This isn't an either / or, it is part of a wide range.)

Sorry. The story in and of itself *is* a toxic stereotype of trans people behavior.

It's not just "external context" that makes it damaging.

That was why I said there is a lot to unpack here. I realize I expressed that badly.

What I meant to convey was that everything else aside, the context alone would make it sufficiently problematic to retire the content.

There is everything else people pointed out, which has already been explained many times in this thread, but the people still arguing simply lack the context themselves to understand those explanations.

(Some of which gets into legitimate discussion about where the line between internal and external gets drawn. But all of which is going to require *far* more context and immersion in the issues than can possibly be conveyed in a Paizo forum thread.)

My question is if the main villain was homosexual, would that be an automatic example of being homophobic or just one aspect of their life?

The answer would vary by observer and the specific presentation

Got a question... what is a cis?

I am unfamiliar with this term and have seen it here and there recently to denote some sort of... well, I am not exactly sure.

As far as the subject of The Golemworks, I wonder if the movie Psycho was a source of influence for the character. Anyone know?

Trying to be succinct, Cisgender is someone who's sense of identity and gender corresponds to their sex assigned at birth.

Got a question... what is a cis?

A person who's not trans.

Probably dervies From chemistry configurations

I was genuine with my questions and desire for clarity. Thank you to those who meaningfully conversed and clarified things for me. I am no longer interested in where this conversation has taken.

Crossdressing is not the same as being transgender, but negative, stereotyping depictions of crossdressing contribute to transphobic perceptions.

That's more than enough reason to step away from that content.

Well for the record and Pyscho is supposed to be based off an actual person. That's why I conflated the two because movies like Pyscho are an overt reference to someone. And if you add in that context you get the creepy transphobic obsession.

And then to answer the question as to why it matters well second wave feminism/terfs basically think that being transgender is no different than what happens in the movie Psycho. Can't go into much more than that because it reads like idle claptrap but yeah.

Probably dervies From chemistry configurations

More likely the chemical usage and the identity usage are derived from a common source, in this case, Latin.

I'd be really surprised if someone who wasn't a chemist thought of chemistry while discussing gender identity.

Noven wrote:

My question is if the main villain was homosexual, would that be an automatic example of being homophobic or just one aspect of their life?

Used to, yes. For the longest time plenty of villains were queer coded to further enhance their villainy and degenerateness, to provoke revulsion.

Now, how much of it factors into the character.

Trans folk don’t have that “used to”, they’re still living it.

As Rysky says. 30, even 20 years ago, that would have been a definite yes. I grew up gay at a time when even our own stories, written by and for our own communities, had every main character as suicidally depressed. Or if they weren't, they were just straight up evil. Usually the love interest either died or beat the main character's face in. I wrote stuff like this as a 16 year old in 2000. When talking with other authors about story decisions, it barely occurred to any of us to even question how screwed up that all was.

It was a lot.

Last 10 years or so, especially the last 5, it has been vastly improved. It's a meme that Netflix requires every TV show to have a Gay or Lesbian character, but the numbers of LGBT characters have definitely increased to the point that a single or even a couple dozen gay villains running around isn't cause for alarm. The queer coding Rysky has also mostly dropped, and both queer baiting and the "bury your gays" trope (which is an artifact of a time when it was literally not allowed to have a happily ever after for a lesbian couple) have entered conversations about what makes for good representation.

So yeah. This is one area where having a gay man doing something is setting a different tone than having someone trans (either actually or just in presentation).

Touché. I stand corrected.

Removed several heated and/or antagonistic posts. We encourage respectful discussions around gender to provide a chance for learning and growth. Argumentation and hate do not belong on our forums.

Also removed several posts regarding the original topic of sanctioning Adventure Paths. While I appreciate listening to community opinion, our decision to sanction Agents of Edgewatch is not open for discussion. Regardless of intent, anything sanctioned for OP finds its way into public events and we do not feel the themes in this AP appropriate for public play. We do feel this AP handles well in home groups of familiar players and encourage players who want to experience this AP to look for such a group.

It's worth noting that Paizo has several product lines and products aren't all written specifically for the OP environment. When we don't sanction products, we aren't saying something is bad. We are looking at how it supports and encourages play in public spaces, how much GM adjudication it needs (since GMs must run as written to preserve the same experience aspect of OP, length, and other such topics.

Yelling and or berating the OP team for this decision is not going to change our opinion and just makes us reluctant to engage in future discussions. We aren't stifling discussion but would ask the community to look at their tone and word choice before hitting the submit post button. In the end, we are all members of the Paizo community and should seek to foster a positive environment for everyone.

I'm sure I saw it in 'Official Paizo Voice'(TM)... I'll dig around, see what I find...

~
{EDIT}

Sanctioning Adventure Paths for Pathfinder Society" blog, 6th paragraph wrote:

Alternatively, if you are participating in a Pathfinder Adventure Path with an ongoing home group undertaking the entire campaign, you may receive credit for playing the sanctioned portions of the adventure as if you had played a pregenerated character. In this case, GMs running the Adventure Path are not bound to the rules of the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign when running the campaign or the sanctioned portion of the adventure. Pathfinder Society characters and characters from an ongoing Adventure Path campaign may not play in the same adventure.

Sanctioning Adventure Paths for Pathfinder Society blog

I knew I had seen it 'officially' somewhere... So, from its inception, 'Campaign' mode was SPECIFICALLY intended for Home Games.

Note... this is not intended to restart the debate...

Pulling up language from 2012 and prior campaign leadership to make your allegations of bad faith stick to current leadership is inappropriate. The program grew and evolved since the blog you cited, as have our organizational documents. Campaign mode, as listed in the Guide for Organized Play: Pathfinder Society (second edition), the program under which Agents of Edgewatch would be sanctioned deliberately calls out campaign mode as a mode that doesn't use PFS rules. It does not state it is a home game. The relevant section of the guide.

Are there any other relevant mass media examples aside from Psycho? Extrapolating from that as a source to establish a stereotype is quite the stretch. Certainly representation itself is quite low, but jumping in with labels and shaming even when personally aggrieved is at best off putting to those not in the 'know' [insert hearsay disclaimer in addition to matching my own experience a similar sentiment has been shared with me from a parent of a transgender child] . We all face limits to our knowledge and experience which is why we make generalizations (which can of course turn into stereotypes), frustrating or not the extent of human diversity does mean we also have to accept that others can't be completely in the know about our experiences. In my case I don't go around telling people that because of multiple hospitalizations and bad asthma and allergic reactions to cats and dogs as a child I have an instinctual revulsion towards animals. Luckily my sensitivity abated overtime, but I could have never done public play if it existed in the 80's with someone with a service dog for example. It's just not fair or productive to expect others to acknowledge the negative emotions (rooted in my disability) their incessant chatter about pets causes.

Are there any other relevant mass media examples aside from Psycho? Extrapolating from that as a source to establish a stereotype is quite the stretch.

Yes there are a great many. Which is why the LGBTQ community has such a negative reaction. That said you are welcome to look into this, the information is widely available, But I don't have the energy for giving an educational course on gender studies. (Nor am I at all interested in any attempt to make me "prove" that negative gay and Trans representation exists and is widespread.)

I have an instinctual revulsion towards animals.... Luckily my sensitivity abated overtime, but I could have never done public play if it existed in the 80's with someone with a service dog for example. It's just not fair or productive to expect others to acknowledge the negative emotions (rooted in my disability) their incessant chatter about pets causes.

Actually, this is an excellent example of something that *should* be accomadated.

You should be able to say "I am sorry, can you save that conversation for later? I had some bad experiences and even hearing about pets is upsetting for me." And that should be the end of the matter. People may ask, but you should be able to say "It is really upsetting. I am not ready to talk about it." And make it stick.

Service dogs are more complicated, as it becomes a case of balancing your needs against someone else's needs. But even there you should be able to go to an organizer and say "I have had some very bad experiences with animals, and I cannot stand to be close to them. I see that someone over there has a service animal. Is it possible to put our tables as far apart as possible?"

Welcoming Enviroment is not reserved just for specific groups. It means accommodating as wide a field of people as possible.

Are there any other relevant mass media examples aside from Psycho?

Everything that borrowed from/was inspired by or referenced psyco? Which would be a lot...

It seems to be fairly common in police procedural to reveal to pull on the audience because its fairly reasonable to be looking for a woman the whole time but gasp, a costume change later and they're male. And the male the police were talking to for some other reason at that. It's one of the few twists you can show the audience with the right camera angle.

But yes. There is fairly often a push to see things in a larger context that some people may not have the information to reach, and even if you do have that information may not make out the same pattern. (Both false positives and false negatives are possible)

Are there any other relevant mass media examples aside from Psycho?

Mentioned above, this doc is really a great overview of trans representation in media, for those interested:

Davor Firetusk wrote:

Welcoming Enviroment is not reserved just for specific groups. It means accommodating as wide a field of people as possible.

Yeah I completely with you on this. I'm never going to question if someone has an issue with something outside of making sure that I'm not being a jerk.

For some clarity I completely agree that negative gay stereotypes are widespread. Its why the I've always found Miss Feathers to be an extremely problematic character to me it immediately came off as a poor attempt to make a gay cross-dresser. Others seem to have interpreted the character as Trans, which only sows confusion at best over these different categories.

-Jared I appreciate the willingness to be accommodating, but it really is the definition of a me problem. The emotions are both perfectly explainable and utterly irrational all at the same time. People are fairly responsive because I keep the asks pretty small. But given the amount of happiness most derive from their pets, at best leading with my distaste is socially isolating and at worst guilting others and rather selfish.

Well the thing is that she is transgender. There's no subtext or anything because she uses she/her pronouns. It's very much the same PFS is doing in December except that NPC doesn't have toxic stereotypes associated with their initial introduction.

Stephen Meadows Jr wrote:

I'm sure I saw it in 'Official Paizo Voice'(TM)... I'll dig around, see what I find...

~
{EDIT}

Sanctioning Adventure Paths for Pathfinder Society" blog, 6th paragraph wrote:

Alternatively, if you are participating in a Pathfinder Adventure Path with an ongoing home group undertaking the entire campaign, you may receive credit for playing the sanctioned portions of the adventure as if you had played a pregenerated character. In this case, GMs running the Adventure Path are not bound to the rules of the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign when running the campaign or the sanctioned portion of the adventure. Pathfinder Society characters and characters from an ongoing Adventure Path campaign may not play in the same adventure.

Sanctioning Adventure Paths for Pathfinder Society blog

I knew I had seen it 'officially' somewhere... So, from its inception, 'Campaign' mode was SPECIFICALLY intended for Home Games.

Note... this is not intended to restart the debate...

Pulling up language from 2012 and prior campaign leadership to make your allegations of bad faith stick to current leadership is inappropriate.

...

That was specifically disproving that the statement that Campaign Mode never meant Home Game was a False statement.

We have never had an official statement rescinding that intent... at least that I have seen... according to long standing Society Rules, unless specifically contradicted by newer rulings, all old rulings are still true.

~

That said, PF2 doesn't have the grandfathered statement, so I concede the Bad Faith statement.

-Jared I appreciate the willingness to be accommodating, but it really is the definition of a me problem. The emotions are both perfectly explainable and utterly irrational all at the same time. People are fairly responsive because I keep the asks pretty small. But given the amount of happiness most derive from their pets, at best leading with my distaste is socially isolating and at worst guilting others and rather selfish.

I respect your choice and willingness to make accommodations for others. :)

But if you ever need a safe space so that you can relax, jump on the Sacramento online servers, and we will make sure you have it.

I just ran most of the last bit of Book 1 of the Agents of Edgewatch AP.

There is some SERIOUSLY adult only themed material in this.

I would NOT want to see this run in any open gaming venue where people could overhear the game.

I absolutely would NOT want to see this AP run with groups of strangers.

This AP is for mature gamers only. Preferably for gamers who have some idea of each others "hot buttons". Because, man there are lots of potential hot buttons to trigger.

Man, did Paizo do the right thing in NOT sanctioning this for general PFS play.

Don't get me wrong. Its fine for groups who have taken the disclaimers seriously, for mature people who know what they're getting into.

But it really, really, really is a bad fit for the open to all public environment that is the mainstay of PFS.

For some clarity I completely agree that negative gay stereotypes are widespread. Its why the I've always found Miss Feathers to be an extremely problematic character to me it immediately came off as a poor attempt to make a gay cross-dresser. Others seem to have interpreted the character as Trans, which only sows confusion at best over these different categories.

Oh Miss Feathers. The first two appearances (City of Strangers Parts 1 and 2) were in a list of possible information sources. Very brief description. One sentence fragment and two sentences. Including the phrase "Miss Feathers, despite the name, is a hulking, muscular man." Miss Feathers was explicitly male.

When Miss Feathers appeared again some 3 years later (Feast of Sigils) she was explicitly female.

It comes down to the fact that the character wasn't given much canonical detail. Not enough to push towards positive stereotypes. Miss Feathers became whatever the local group played him/her as. The scenarios didn't introduce Miss Feathers with negative stereotypes, the GMs did.

I would NOT want to see this run in any open gaming venue where people could overhear the game.

This is somewhat tangential, but are there Paizo policies about running such games like this as PbP on paizo.com? If it's bad enough so that PFS wouldn't want to run it in public, can it be run without modification on the public paizo.com forums?

Is this a retcon, or did Miss Feathers save up enough for an Elixir of Sex Shift between the scenarios?

Or was identity recognized as more important than plumbing?

There's a lot of ways that could be read. Probably one of the reasons reactions to the character vary so wildly.

If it matters to your character, its probably not going to matter for your character.

Kevin WIllis wrote:

Is this a retcon, or did Miss Feathers save up enough for an Elixir of Sex Shift between the scenarios?

Or was identity recognized as more important than plumbing?

There's a lot of ways that could be read. Probably one of the reasons reactions to the character vary so wildly.

If it matters to your character, its probably not going to matter for your character.

I had just assumed that there are multiple ways to achieve the end goal of becoming a woman in the setting and that Miss Feathers took a cheaper but slower approach than a spell or elixir. Feathers showed up in 4 scenarios and from what I recall was more feminine in each scenario.

Thank you, Kevin, for the explanation for Ms Feathers.

We had a local guy here play her as the character from Mrs Doubtfire (that made Robin Williams into the famous nanny), with the voice and all. I was not there myself, but heard about it, it was one of the best times to be had at that table.

There was another that played her off as a Bearded Lady that you see in Carnivals, specifically one from a movie that I have not seen.

The update seemed... off, but the character is remembered for more than just the overall two sentence blurb in the first scenario she was in.

TOZ wrote:

The Skinsaw Murders hasn't been unsanctioned, so I'm sure it's not that.

But I don't know of any product that has been "unsanctioned" at all, do you?

I think Paizo going forward will handle certain content differently than they had in the past. While I disagree with their decision not to sanction AoE, I now expect them not to sanction the upcoming Malevolence adventure.

I have been running the AP, assuming it would be sanctioned. I really like it. I love urban adventures, and playing guards is an excellent role playing opportunity. Now that the announcement has been made, I am really angry. I am very tempted to throw out all the books I've bought or burn them. I will certainly not buy AP in the future, nor run them until sanctioning is published. I am livid.

As you should be.

I have been running the AP, assuming it would be sanctioned. I really like it. I love urban adventures, and playing guards is an excellent role playing opportunity. Now that the announcement has been made, I am really angry. I am very tempted to throw out all the books I've bought or burn them. I will certainly not buy AP in the future, nor run them until sanctioning is published. I am livid.

I understand that, but the announcement was made 2020-10-31. Why are you surprised now? And is getting 6 levels of credit for PFS that make-or-break for you?

Speaking of Agents of Edgewatch:

After careful consideration, we’ve decided against sanctioning the Agents of Edgewatch Adventure Path for Pathfinder Society play. Agents of Edgewatch contains themes and content that are best explored in a home group setting, among players who are comfortable engaging with them together. We will, however, be adding a curated selection of player-facing rules from the adventure path to the list of rewards you can purchase with Achievement Points.

Any news on the last part? Will we be getting this curated list of rewards before or after Abomination Vaults gets sanctioned?

Hopefully after Devastation Ark.

I've been waiting 6 months to play an Operative with the new Mysticism-focused Specialization.

Been very busy with work and found out about the non-sanctioning of Edgewatch. Very disappointing to hear that and more disappointing to hear that items in it will be achievement point purchase gated.

Speaking of Agents of Edgewatch:

Quote:

After careful consideration, we’ve decided against sanctioning the Agents of Edgewatch Adventure Path for Pathfinder Society play. Agents of Edgewatch contains themes and content that are best explored in a home group setting, among players who are comfortable engaging with them together. We will, however, be adding a curated selection of player-facing rules from the adventure path to the list of rewards you can purchase with Achievement Points.

Any news on the last part? Will we be getting this curated list of rewards before or after Abomination Vaults gets sanctioned?

We now have a project for it and it is on the radar for those staff involved in sanctioning. We've got a heavy lift over the next few months (Dev Ark, Fly Free or Die, LO: Mwangi, Tech Revolution, Malevolence, 2 One-Shots, Galaxy Exploration Manual, and Fists of the Ruby Phoenix) so expect it after the last of that batch.

Tommi Ketonen wrote:

Speaking of Agents of Edgewatch:

Quote:

After careful consideration, we’ve decided against sanctioning the Agents of Edgewatch Adventure Path for Pathfinder Society play. Agents of Edgewatch contains themes and content that are best explored in a home group setting, among players who are comfortable engaging with them together. We will, however, be adding a curated selection of player-facing rules from the adventure path to the list of rewards you can purchase with Achievement Points.

Any news on the last part? Will we be getting this curated list of rewards before or after Abomination Vaults gets sanctioned?

We now have a project for it and it is on the radar for those staff involved in sanctioning. We've got a heavy lift over the next few months (Dev Ark, Fly Free or Die, LO: Mwangi, Tech Revolution, Malevolence, 2 One-Shots, Galaxy Exploration Manual, and Fists of the Ruby Phoenix) so expect it after the last of that batch.

I'm guessing the last of the 1e APs are also on the list.

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

Tommi Ketonen wrote:

Speaking of Agents of Edgewatch:

Quote:

After careful consideration, we’ve decided against sanctioning the Agents of Edgewatch Adventure Path for Pathfinder Society play. Agents of Edgewatch contains themes and content that are best explored in a home group setting, among players who are comfortable engaging with them together. We will, however, be adding a curated selection of player-facing rules from the adventure path to the list of rewards you can purchase with Achievement Points.

Any news on the last part? Will we be getting this curated list of rewards before or after Abomination Vaults gets sanctioned?

We now have a project for it and it is on the radar for those staff involved in sanctioning. We've got a heavy lift over the next few months (Dev Ark, Fly Free or Die, LO: Mwangi, Tech Revolution, Malevolence, 2 One-Shots, Galaxy Exploration Manual, and Fists of the Ruby Phoenix) so expect it after the last of that batch.

I'm guessing the last of the 1e APs are also on the list.

I think they are on a separate list labeled "Soon™"