Mastering Pathfinder

Cydeth wrote:

Jesikah Morning's Dew wrote:

Thanks. That's what I was afraid of. Long time to wait! I suppose I can get a good enough feel for it to just wing it until then, but I am really looking forward to having something to tinker with!

I completely agree, though I also agree with their reasoning. Making the first bestiary more expensive or have fewer monsters would be bad, as would them putting the monster creation rules in every bestiary down the line. I'd rather them put them where it makes sense, even if I'm champing at the bit to create some of my homebrew monsters.

Agree that I'd like to see the custom monster rules sooner, but I've been creating my own monsters for the Playtest for a few months now, and it's actually quite easy in the new system. I just choose a similar monster of the same CR, keep the AC and attack/damage bonuses the same, and swap out the special abilities. Everything seems to have shaken out OK so far, and everything's felt about the right level of challenge.

My only annoyance with the Bestiary is that all the humanoid creatures are very low level. I'd rather have seen some traditionally tougher humanoids, like Drow, to have examples higher than CR 5 or 6. It means that, until we get monster and NPC creation rules in the GMG, my party will only be fighting big monsters, rather than well trained humanoids.

You can also just follow the PC creation rules to make NPCs in the meantime. That method has been endorsed by Mark Seifter.

You can also just follow the PC creation rules to make NPCs in the meantime. That method has been endorsed by Mark Seifter.

And it's pretty easy to wing it when you need a check for an NPC on the fly. Pick a level. Pick a proficiency. Pick a stat bonus from 1-4. Bam, you've got a check that would stack up.

Or...just use the DC table.

AZATAS!!! I love them! Pretty much my all time favorite greater outsiders. I don't know if that's a term, but you know what I mean, the sorts of residents of the alignment planes that are the equivalent to Angels/Devils/Archons/ect.

The only other one I am really hoping for is Proteans. I want me my chaos otherworldly serpents!

I hope Mitflits/Mites have options so they can become less pathetic.

If not now, then I hope for options later.

Asgetrion wrote:

Heh, having lived most of my life close to the Arctic Circle I'd say that -11 C or even -20 C is hardly "severe cold" in my books. Then again I *love* cold, and +20-25 C is severe heat for me. :)

Here is a wonderful example. People from different regions of the world have different norms of comfort with regards to temperatures. 25+ C is passing out temperature for me, and many others, yet at -14 C is no hassle to be outdoors. There you go to other regions of the world 40 C is the normal and comfortable for those native to the region, yet are freezing (almost going into shock when temperature drop below 25 C).

Yeah, I was reading this whole conversation in Buenos Aires with 11 C while wearing 2 shirts, a sweatshirt and a jacket and freezing my ass off, just longing for the warm embrace of Asmodeus in hell.

Lunatic Barghest wrote:

I lived in Arizona for 26 years, and still have a few friends there.

Every single summer, I see a "meanwhile, in Arizona" meme, highlighting the people who are uncomfortable with 90 F summers an their complaints, while Arizonans are out in 115 F and are perfectly fine.

I mean, it IS a meme, but it's based in hard experience.

So, yeah, "hot" and "cold" are fairly relative, depending on the environment you're accustomed to.

And as the table suggests, how we experience heat is also highly dependant on humidity. I find 42 C (108 F) heat in a nice, dry place like Arizona to be fairly pleasant, but 26 degrees C (81 F) in an extremely humid place like Toronto can be absolutely brutal.

I lived in Mobile AL for a few years, and there you get the 108/42 temps with the 90-100% humidity. It's a joy to experience.

AZATAS!!! I love them! Pretty much my all time favorite greater outsiders. I don't know if that's a term, but you know what I mean, the sorts of residents of the alignment planes that are the equivalent to Angels/Devils/Archons/ect.

The only other one I am really hoping for is Proteans. I want me my chaos otherworldly serpents!

I'm a fan of Inevitables and Daemons, personally.

Jesikah Morning's Dew wrote:

So, are there good rules for creating custom monsters?

Nope. Those were explicitly going to be in a Game Mastery Guide, which is slated for January, I believe.

I think I am looking forward to the new Gamemastery Guide a lot more than I was the old one.

Cydeth wrote:

Jesikah Morning's Dew wrote:

So, are there good rules for creating custom monsters?

Nope. Those were explicitly going to be in a Game Mastery Guide, which is slated for January, I believe.

Thanks. That's what I was afraid of. Long time to wait! I suppose I can get a good enough feel for it to just wing it until then, but I am really looking forward to having something to tinker with!

Until then, I imagine it goes something like:

1) Choose a Level and "theme"
2) Choose a bunch of things the monster is trained at
3) Choose some thing(s) the monster is expert at (suggested level 3 or higher)
4) Choose some thing(s) the monster is master at (suggested level 7 or higher)
5) Create some thematic special abilities to use within the 3-act combat system

The rest seems to be simple math.

Hi all, this is my first post in these forums!

I see pages upon pages of discussion on the temperature table; I am surprised however that none addressed the very high Save bonuses the monsters have. The level 1 Naiad has a +8 in her Will save! How is that possible with such a low Wis modifier? The Legion Archon's saves are shockingly high as well, with a +17 Fort at Level 7. I heard several times that monster saves will be lowered in the final version but it seems this is not the case.

Me (as a GM) and my team were disappointed with the high DCs in the playtest rules, because effect-inflicting spells rarely took hold. This promotes the blaster type of caster (where even a failed save will result in some damage output) and makes fewer tactical options viable.

On a similar note I also see the skill modifiers being very high. The level 7 Archon has a +15 in Perception!

The bonuses on Saves, attacks, and Skills are not actually based directly on the monster's Ability Modifiers. Think of it as this edition's versions of Racial Bonuses to various stuff.

AS for the bonuses being high, remember that all Trained stuff adds Level +2, Expert stuff Level +4, and Master stuff Level +6.

So a 1st level Cleric with Wis 16 has a +8 Will Save as well (and DC 16 Save DCs...+9 will Save and DC 17 if they have Wis 18), and a 7th level PC might easily have +15 Perception if they're focused on it (+7 Level +4 Expert +4 Wis or alternately +6 Master and +2 Wis). Monsters are mostly well within PC numbers (sometimes assuming items, but not usually on more than a couple Skills), and the few exceptions are appropriate (a Lillend has a +20 Performance, when a PC probably maxes at +18 for the most part at 7th...but that's appropriate).

So...nobody's commented because those appear to be fine for the most part.

Hi all, this is my first post in these forums!

I see pages upon pages of discussion on the temperature table; I am surprised however that none addressed the very high Save bonuses the monsters have. The level 1 Naiad has a +8 in her Will save! How is that possible with such a low Wis modifier? The Legion Archon's saves are shockingly high as well, with a +17 Fort at Level 7. I heard several times that monster saves will be lowered in the final version but it seems this is not the case.

Me (as a GM) and my team were disappointed with the high DCs in the playtest rules, because effect-inflicting spells rarely took hold. This promotes the blaster type of caster (where even a failed save will result in some damage output) and makes fewer tactical options viable.

On a similar note I also see the skill modifiers being very high. The level 7 Archon has a +15 in Perception!

DC for a level 6 character (just before expert saves kick in), is something like base 10, +8 proficiency, +4 stat for a total of 22. That saves on a 5 for its good save, and an 11 for its bad save - and this is an enemy a level higher, at perhaps the worst point for a caster to compare. One level higher, and that becomes an 8/14/10 for its three saves at DC 25.

I think variations in heat/cold tolerance between regions are more about acclimatization than heritage. Like the reason you will see people in shorts in 0 degree weather in Minnesota or working in the sun in 106 degree weather in Arizona is pretty much because they've gotten used to the range of temperatures they live in. I've known people who moved from my arctic wonderland to the desert who can no longer really tolerate the cold when they come back, and I'm sure it works the other way too.

Yes, but:

DarkOne the Drow wrote:

People from different regions of the world have different norms of comfort

Its not just where you're from. When it is in the year matters a lot.

In the fall, when it gets down to <insert arbitrary temperature> then it feels COLD, people put on their sweaters and jackets, etc.

In the spring, when it gets UP to <identical arbitrary temperature as above> then it is WARM or even HOT, people go out in shorts and T shirts.

Same place, same people. The direction the temperature is moving makes a huge difference.

If you do that, you shoot yourself in the foot with respect to acclimation. I CAN'T find a decent jacket, so I harden myself to the cold by purposely not dressing warmly enough during the fall, so that when it down to industrial freezer temperatures I can be okay by just putting on my lousy jacket, and then I harden myself to the summer heat by purposely dressing too warmly and keeping the windows closed for too long in the spring, so that when we had the recent heat wave I was only a little bit overheated.

For the actual subject matter, I think my favorite thing is the simplest: monster descriptions come before the stat blocks. As someone who likes to read Bestiaries cover-to-cover, going straight from the name to the text flows so much smoother than skipping down or to the side past the stats. Helps make it feel more like an actual book without detracting from its use as an in-game reference.

I wasn't consciously aware of how much I liked that changed until you pointed out. It's a great design.

I hope Mitflits/Mites have options so they can become less pathetic.

If not now, then I hope for options later.

Uh, isn't that their whole shtick?

With undead steed, does it mean "undead can command the steed without making a check" and "allies of the steed can command the steed without making a check".

Or does it mean "undead can command the steed without making a check" and "allies of undead can command the steed without making a check".

The phrasing is unclear.

The latter.

"Undead and creatures allied with them can Command a skeletal steed without needing to attempt a skill check."

It doesn't say it, it uses them and then later uses "a" skeletal steed.

I hope Mitflits/Mites have options so they can become less pathetic.

If not now, then I hope for options later.

I think the whole point of their existence is to be the pathetic little buggers they are.

scary harpy wrote:

I hope Mitflits/Mites have options so they can become less pathetic.

If not now, then I hope for options later.

I think the whole point of their existence is to be the pathetic little buggers they are.

Some people aren't happy with that kind of marginalization. This is part of the path that led to us having goblin as a core ancestry.

Zaister wrote:

scary harpy wrote:

I hope Mitflits/Mites have options so they can become less pathetic.

If not now, then I hope for options later.

I think the whole point of their existence is to be the pathetic little buggers they are.

Some people aren't happy with that kind of marginalization. This is part of the path that led to us having goblin as a core ancestry.

Hmm, how so?

Kobolds will make core Next time!

Kobolds will make core Next time!

Plushies for core!

DarkOne the Drow wrote:

Asgetrion wrote:

Heh, having lived most of my life close to the Arctic Circle I'd say that -11 C or even -20 C is hardly "severe cold" in my books. Then again I *love* cold, and +20-25 C is severe heat for me. :)

Here is a wonderful example. People from different regions of the world have different norms of comfort with regards to temperatures. 25+ C is passing out temperature for me, and many others, yet at -14 C is no hassle to be outdoors. There you go to other regions of the world 40 C is the normal and comfortable for those native to the region, yet are freezing (almost going into shock when temperature drop below 25 C).

If the actual temperature is of no importance, why then include a temperature scale in the first place. Though if a temperature scale is to be included, include both scales. Players really don't want to be forced go to the internet during game play just to do conversions in order to under stand what the temperature condition actually means.

Because mechanically people who live in intense heat/cold are exceptions to the baseline assumption of the world and are best represented by Heritages like Desert Dwarf/Artic Elf which grant fire/cold resistance and the ability to ignore extreme heat or cold. It isn't significantly different than some people being better runners (Fleet) or hardier (Toughness.)

Meanwhile, they need a baseline assumption for how people without those Heritages withstand extreme weather. Id' guess the Inner Sea Region seems to be that baseline, and Varisia has weather comparable to the Seattle area.

This doesn't really address the Fahrenheit vs Celsius debate

Yeah, that's it; I mean, I'm probably more "warm-blooded" than most people, and the optimal t-shirt weather for me is around 13-14 C (55-57 F), but I guess many others would find that a bit chilly. On the other hand I'm sweating profusely if the temperature hits 70 F.

I think the table is just fine as is, I just found it funny that I'd be literally melting in 'mild heat' and yet consider 'mild cold' to be chilly at worst. But I guess I did pick up that Arctic Heritage when I was born! :)

That excerpt about adjudicating the rules is just brilliant; I love it too, Mark! :)

scary harpy wrote:

I hope Mitflits/Mites have options so they can become less pathetic.

If not now, then I hope for options later.

I think the whole point of their existence is to be the pathetic little buggers they are.

Exactly! They're supposed to be pathetic, vengeful little miscreants, and IMO that 2E Bestiary entry nails them perfectly!

BTW, does anyone know why dryads inflict 1d12+2 points of damage? Their Dex is +4 and Str +0, where does that +2 come from?

BTW, does anyone know why dryads inflict 1d12+2 points of damage? Their Dex is +4 and Str +0, where does that +2 come from?

Racial

BTW, does anyone know why dryads inflict 1d12+2 points of damage? Their Dex is +4 and Str +0, where does that +2 come from?

Probably the monster version of Weapon Specialization: ie whatever needs to happen to put the numbers where they should be.

With undead steed, does it mean "undead can command the steed without making a check" and "allies of the steed can command the steed without making a check".

Or does it mean "undead can command the steed without making a check" and "allies of undead can command the steed without making a check".

The phrasing is unclear.

I think the differences between the possible interpretations are very unlikely to matter in any game. If your GM has to make a ruling whether someone can order a skeletal horse around because they're an ally of undead generally or just that particular undead steed, I don't think your game will come to a screeching halt.

Asgetrion wrote:

BTW, does anyone know why dryads inflict 1d12+2 points of damage? Their Dex is +4 and Str +0, where does that +2 come from?

Probably the monster version of Weapon Specialization: ie whatever needs to happen to put the numbers where they should be.

Or half the level, rounded up? No, it's the same with dryad queen (3d12+8) and that would be 3d12+7. Hmmm. Well, even if it were due to "level-approbriate" damage that's fine.

It's a feature/bug of P2e that you can't actually reverse-engineer the stat blocks.

*sigh* yeah

Well, it's not a major issue for me; I'd rather have the math "right" than worry about an elf champion's exact damage bonus (and which stat it is derived from) with, say, spears. I never noted any errors in PF1 Bestiaries, and neither did it ever matter at the table if a monster was missing +1 from a skill or its saves. It definitely should not matter to players either. :)

It's a feature/bug of P2e that you can't actually reverse-engineer the stat blocks.

You probably can once you have the monster creation rules, but looking at their Ability scores is not very useful in this process, no.

Zaister wrote:

scary harpy wrote:

I hope Mitflits/Mites have options so they can become less pathetic.

If not now, then I hope for options later.

I think the whole point of their existence is to be the pathetic little buggers they are.

Exactly! They're supposed to be pathetic, vengeful little miscreants, and IMO that 2E Bestiary entry nails them perfectly!

There is no need for any race to be pathetic just so low-level PCs can have an easy victory.

All threats should be able to be scaled up and down.

Asgetrion wrote:

Zaister wrote:

scary harpy wrote:

I hope Mitflits/Mites have options so they can become less pathetic.

If not now, then I hope for options later.

I think the whole point of their existence is to be the pathetic little buggers they are.

Exactly! They're supposed to be pathetic, vengeful little miscreants, and IMO that 2E Bestiary entry nails them perfectly!

There is no need for any race to be pathetic just so low-level PCs can have an easy victory.

All threats should be able to be scaled up and down.

I think Asg was referring to how they are, not to their mechanical stats or combat effectiveness.

I think the thing unique to fae, is that become sufficiently powerful and you can just shape the (first) world to fit your whims. So the mites who become powerful most likely rework themselves to be something different entirely.

I am not an expert on pathfinder lore, but I was under the impression the malleability of the first world was because of its nature and not because of the fae. I could be mistaken.

I am not an expert on pathfinder lore, but I was under the impression the malleability of the first world was because of its nature and not because of the fae. I could be mistaken.

I mean, all of the fae are from the first world- they are made of first world stuff, and thus are malleable. Of course, even exiles from the first world retain some acumen at this (c.f. the gnome heritage that gives you chameleon powers.)

I am not an expert on pathfinder lore, but I was under the impression the malleability of the first world was because of its nature and not because of the fae. I could be mistaken.

I think it was kind of a balance, the fey are from first world stuff and come therefore in all sizes and shapes, partially depending on where they come into existance

on the other side the more powerfull fey are able to shape the first world in (somtimes large) areas around them, which in turn again makes it more likely that fey adjusted to the area come in existance

(And of course many fae do horizontal sports but please don't ask me to make a chart which combination makes which fey specific ;) )

scary harpy wrote:

Asgetrion wrote:

Zaister wrote:

scary harpy wrote:

I hope Mitflits/Mites have options so they can become less pathetic.

If not now, then I hope for options later.

I think the whole point of their existence is to be the pathetic little buggers they are.

Exactly! They're supposed to be pathetic, vengeful little miscreants, and IMO that 2E Bestiary entry nails them perfectly!

There is no need for any race to be pathetic just so low-level PCs can have an easy victory.

All threats should be able to be scaled up and down.

I think Asg was referring to how they are, not to their mechanical stats or combat effectiveness.

I mean how they are and their mechanical stats.

Many may have disliked the Advanced Race Guide, but I liked how I could easily customize by the numbers.

It's a feature/bug of P2e that you can't actually reverse-engineer the stat blocks.

It's presented as a feature but feels like a bug.

You will probably be able to reverse engineer them when the gmg is out

What items in 2E would you need to reverse engineer? Have they reduced the total down from 1E?

Joana wrote:

It's a feature/bug of P2e that you can't actually reverse-engineer the stat blocks.

It's presented as a feature but feels like a bug.

Not universally. I like the new design, for the most part.

sherlock1701 wrote:

Joana wrote:

It's a feature/bug of P2e that you can't actually reverse-engineer the stat blocks.

It's presented as a feature but feels like a bug.

Not universally. I like the new design, for the most part.

Yeah, I have no problems with it either. I can't count the number of times I've pulled a monster out of the book and been like "Ehh, the CR is a bit high. The defenses seem fine but that damage modifier is a bit too beefy, I'll cut it in half for now and see how it plays"

NPCs and big bads I built from scratch in Hero Lab, however, were where the numbers had to line up for my own practice building things by the rules. And since we can still do that... I don't see a problem.

The one thing that I REALLY don't like is that we no longer get the quick descriptive blurbs at the beginning of the stat block. Those really helped establish the flavor of the creature and give the players a picture of what they were facing.

sherlock1701 wrote:

Joana wrote:

It's a feature/bug of P2e that you can't actually reverse-engineer the stat blocks.

It's presented as a feature but feels like a bug.

Not universally. I like the new design, for the most part.

Guidelines are nice, but a lot of GMs I've played with (and myself when I've GM'd) have tweaked stat blocks to make them make sense if the existing rules for monsters produced something too strong or too weak and.. I'd kind of just rather have Paizo do that themselves if it makes for better monsters.

A monster that gets a bonus to damage that I can't reliably find a source for is better than a monster that follows a strict set of rules but ends up not hitting hard enough to be dangerous.

Reckless wrote:

Zaister wrote:

scary harpy wrote:

I hope Mitflits/Mites have options so they can become less pathetic.

If not now, then I hope for options later.

I think the whole point of their existence is to be the pathetic little buggers they are.

Some people aren't happy with that kind of marginalization. This is part of the path that led to us having goblin as a core ancestry.

Hmm, how so?

Goblins were the pathetic, monstrous, "naturally evil" foes for 1st level people to earn their steel against.

Paizo made them more interesting in PF1 but not less evil or pathetic. Crazy, easily distracted, weak, small, and cruel. These were among the defining traits of goblins.

Somewhere along the line, people who did not want goblins forced into these traits began to speak out. The interesting parts of goblins were emphasized and these characteristics de-emphasized.

When people wanted to start playing goblins, they wanted goblins to be on par with the core races instead of pathetic and weak.

In 3.5 they were -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma, in PF1 they mutated to +4 Dexterity, –2 Strength, –2 Charisma, and in PF2 they move to a net bonus instead of net penalty.

Over time, they moved from being things you stomp at first level to champions in their own rights. The story of that transformation is quite remarkably well demonstrated here..