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Adventure Marches On

Monday, July 15, 2019

Wizard archetype. A dark-skinned man with a thin mustache holds his right hand out, casting an upside down teardrop-shaped glow of blue. In his left hand, he firmly holds a pointed staff upright. It stands taller than him and near the top it has a rectangular, almost hammer shaped section with a sitting green cat on the side. The man is dressed in pleated brown robes with wide complementary stripes, and wears steel shoes. A wide belt carries two buckled pouches on his left side, one smaller than the other. He wears a piece of shoulder armor secured by by a wide dark red sash with a silver disc attached to protect his joints and has a rolled headscarf that is topped by a conic, pointed hat with a green ball near the top of the point. He appears to be wearing a shoulder wrap that is white with pink flowers underneath his headscarf.

Illustration by Giorgio Baroni

You've created your character. You've tasted that first bite of toil and heroics, earned your first thousand Experience Points, and come back to town a hero. Is it time to hang up the sword, sidle into the local tavern, and get free drinks for years in return for spinning yarns of your youthful adventuring day?

Hell no. It's time to level up your character so you can do it all again!

This week we're going to examine how you advance your characters in Pathfinder. We are going to start with your young fighter who resists the urge to retire and sit on his laurels and instead decides that adventuring is his jam. Let's start by advancing the hero of our story—a human (skilled) fighter, with the nomad background. Let's call him Kaliban.

First Steps

Each time you gain a new level, there're a few things you're going to want to do first. First, you're going to increase your level by one and subtract 1,000 Experience Points (XP) for your XP total. Then you're going to increase your Hit Points by the amount determined by class and then add your Constitution modifier.

Kaliban is a fighter, so his Hit Points increase by 10 + his Constitution bonus (let's say he has Con 14) so his total Hit Points at 2nd level become 32.

Lastly, you're going to take a look at your class progression table and apply any class features that aren't feat choices, ability boosts, or skill increases. We'll take a closer look at that later, at 3rd level when Kaliban gains the bravery class feature, but at 2nd level, Kaliban gains a fighter feat and a skill feat as class features, so we are going to move on to the next step.

Table 3-12: FIGHTER ADVANCEMENT. Column 1: Your Level. Column 2: Class Features. 1 | Ancestry and background, initial proficiencies, attack of opportunity, fighter feat, shield block. 2 | Fighter feat, skill feat. 3| Bravery, general feat, skill increase.

Choose Your Feats

In terms of pure role and effectiveness oomph, choosing a new class feat is often the most exciting choice you can make when advancing your character. First off, let's assume that during character creation Kaliban had already taken Power Attack.

Power attack. Two actions. Feat 1. Fighter. Flourish. You unleash a particularly powerful attack that clobbers your foe but leaves you a bit unsteady. Make a melee Strike. This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty. If this Strike hits, you deal an extra die of weapon damage. If you’re at least 10th level, increase this to two extra dice, and if you’re at least 18th level, increase it to three extra dice.

Kaliban likes power. And Power Attack allows Kaliban to deal even more damage with his favorite weapon—a maul. At 2nd level, he could continue on this punishing path by taking the Brutish Shove fighter feat, which allows him to throw his enemies around the battlefield.

Brutish Shove. One action. Feat 2. Fighter. Press. Requirements: You are wielding a two-handed melee weapon. Description: Throwing your weight behind your attack, you hit your opponent hard enough to make it stumble back. Make a Strike with a two-handed melee weapon. If you have a target that is your size or smaller, that creature is flat-footed until the end of your current turn, and you can automatically Shove it, with the same benefits as the Shove action (including the critical success effect, if your Strike was a critical hit). If you move to follow the target, your movement doesn’t trigger reactions. This Strike has the following failure effect: The target becomes flat-footed until the end of your current turn.

This seems like the obvious choice, but let's imagine Kaliban is not your typical fighter. He's a particularly smart fellow (Intelligence 14). Let's also imagine that during his first adventure, he came across a frightfully competent gnoll evoker who gave Kaliban and his companions a tough time of it. And during that encounter, while taking the abuse that gnoll was dishing out, Kaliban wondered what it would be like to mix martial prowess with that kind of arcane might. Lucky for Kaliban, once he reaches 2nd level, the fighter has the opportunity to grow in a different direction. He can choose to multiclass.

Wizard Dedication. Feat 2. Archetype. Dedication. Multiclass. Prerequisites: Intelligence 14. Description: You cast spells like a wizard, gaining a spell book with four common arcane cantrips of your choice. You gain the Cast a Spell activity. You can prepare two cantrips each day from your spell book. You’re trained in arcane spell attack rolls and spell DCs.Your key spell casting ability for wizard archetype spells is Int, and they are arcane wizard spells. You become trained in Arcana; if you were already trained in Arcana, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. Special: You can’t select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the wizard archetype.

It's not a bad deal. A spellbook with four cantrips, the ability to prepare two of them a day, and training in Arcana strikes the fighter as more promising than just pushing around his enemies. Some fighters might scoff at such dalliance, but Kaliban decides to go the fighter/wizard route. Taking a quick look at the arcane cantrips, he chooses to scribble daze, mage hand, shield, and telekinetic projectile in his spellbook. Most adventuring days, he typically leans on shield and telekinetic projectile as his prepared cantrips.

After picking his class feat, Kaliban picks a skill feat. He has training in the following skills: Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Crafting, Desert Lore, Intimidation, Nature, Society, Stealth, and Survival, so he has a lot of choices. But let's say Kaliban has become enamored with his brief magical studies and chooses Arcane Sense.

Arcane Sense. Feat 1. General. Skill. Prerequisites: trained in Arcana. Description: Your study of magic allows you to instinctively sense its presence. You can cast 1st-level *detect magic* at will as an arcane innate spell. If you’re a master in Arcana, the spell is heightened to 3rd level; if you’re legendary, it is heightened to 4th level.

This way Kaliban can always be on the lookout for more magic to supplement his spellbook, equipment, and his split aspirations.

With his skill feat chosen, all he has to do is adjust his various skills, attack rolls, and DCs to reflect his increased level and new bonuses, and he is done. He has everything he needs to continue adventuring with more than a few new tricks up his sleeve.

Each New Level, Repeat

Each time you gain a level, the method by which you increase your level stays the same. Only the details and choices change. To make it easy for you to remember what you need to do each level, there's a bullet-point list on page 31 of the Pathfinder Second Edition Core Rulebook. Follow those directions each level, and you'll be set.

Leveling-up Checklist. Every time you gain a level, make sure you do each of the following: - Increase your level by 1 and subtract 1,000 XP from your XP total. - Increase your maximum Hit Points by the amount listed in your class entry in Chapter 3. Add class features from your class advancement table, including ability boosts and skill increases. - Select feats as indicated on your class advancement table. For ancestry feats, see Chapter 2. For class feats, see your class entry in Chapter 3. For general feats and skill feats, see Chapter 5. - Add spells and spell slots if your class grants spell casting. See Chapter 7 for spells. - Increase all of your proficiency bonuses by 1 from your new level, and make other increases to your proficiency bonuses as necessary from skill increases or other class features. - Increase any other statistics that changed as a result of ability boots or other abilities. - Adjust bonuses from feats and other abilities that are based on your level.

When Kaliban reaches 3rd level, even though he's multiclassed into wizard, he is still primarily a fighter, and he is going to advance as a 3rd-level fighter. He'll gain 12 more Hit Points (bringing his total to 44) and get the bravery class feature, along with a general feat and a skill increase. First, let's take a look at bravery.

Bravery. 3rd. Having faced countless foes and the chaos of battle, you have learned how to stand strong in the face of fear and keep on fighting. Your proficiency rank for Will saves increases to expert. When you roll a success at a Will save against a fear effect, you get a critical success instead. In addition, any time you gain the frightened condition, reduce its value by 1.

While Kaliban is trained in Will saving throws, during character creation he chose to boost Intelligence instead of Wisdom, so bravery is going to be a big help. At second level his Will saving throw was +4. Thanks to bravery it jumps up to a +7 while granting him some extra protection against fear effects.

The skill increase allows him to either become trained in a new skill or to become an expert in a skill he's already trained in. Kaliban has a pretty robust set of skills, especially for a fighter, so he is going to invest the skill increase in raising one of his skills to expert proficiency. Since he's been focusing many of his build resources into his magical training, this time he'll use his skill training to become an expert in Athletics.

What about that general feat? Well, it just so happens that Magical Crafting pops up at 2nd level, so maybe Kaliban can find a way to increase his power in the magical arts after all.

A female elf in studded dark red armor is shown in active battle in the woods, dark old trees looming in the background and thick vines up to her knees. She has long, flowing white hair and a dark green gem in the middle of her forehead. In her right hand she wields a dagger that looks deadly despite its ornate engraving on the blade, and in her left hand she is pointing a crooked short staff at her attacker and several glowing blue energy knives are bursting out of it from a circle of runes.

Illustration by Matteo Spirito

Only the Beginning

In the end, each level that you attain increases your ability to customize your character. We only completed two levels of Kaliban's advancement, and he has made many exciting and diverse choices, most of which were out of the ordinary. Not only does the fighter have an abundance of choice with just fighter class feats, but by taking dedication feats to multiclass or take on an archetype, the fighter increases the number and variety of choices available to him at each new level. Add to that further customization through skill advancement, general feats (skill and otherwise), and ancestry feats gained after 1st level, and at every level your adventurer becomes a unique legend sure to leave a mark on your campaign's story and the world of Pathfinder.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Using Power Attack as your second strike seems counter-synergistic with Brutish Shove, which must be your second strike. I guess it's a choice between more damage and more control.
Grand Lodge
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PFSocietyInitiate wrote:
To me it looks like power attack doesn't make your attack take a -5 penalty but it means your second attack is getting a -10 (-8 if agile). That makes it way better but I don't know if that's the correct interpretation. I hope someone from Paizo can chime in and tell us.

That's how I read it as well.

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ChibiNyan wrote:

Is it me or Brutish shove is awesome? Yeah, it is Press but you get a full strike + 2 riders on it for no cost. Even on a Failure it causes flat-footed? Will be spamming this every turn!

Also, can the guy from this blog cast Shield while holding his 2h Maul? Are "free hands" not needed for somatic components again?

Just checked the PT, and in there the Shield Cantrip only requires a Verbal Component; if this is true for the Final Print then yes, you should be able to use it with a 2h weapon.

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AnCap Dawg wrote:
It seems weird to me that it only takes 1000xp per level instead of an increasing amount each level.

Can you explain what seems weird to you?

Monsters no longer grant XP. Instead the amount of XP gained from a monster is relative to the difficulty it has against the PCs.

In PF1e the PCs in a 4-man level 3 party, a 4-man level 4 party and a 4-man level 5 party all get 400 XP (per PC) from a Level 5 (CR 5) monster.

In PF2e the PCs in a 4-man level 3 party get 80 XP from a Level 5 (CR 5) monster. The PCs in a 4-man level 4 party get 60 XP from a Level 5 (CR 5) monster. The PCs in a 4-man level 5 party get 40 XP from a Level 5 (CR 5) monster.

What all the above juggling means is that you don't need to reference the book to know how much XP each PC gets and refer to it to know when you've levelled.

Personally speaking, I would simplify it further and just say all challenges overcome grant XX XP regardless of difficulty. A well written adventure is going to have an even spread of challenges. So work out what the average challenge is and grant XP according to that average.

OR you can be even lazier (which is what I plan to do for Adventure Path campaigns) and just say that 50 XP is granted per challenge overcome and you need 800 XP to reach the new level. Now PCs get the reward of gaining XP when they do something (and I can provide an incentive for certain behaviour by granting XP rewards for that behaviour) and no-one needs to refer to any books. This would not be ideal in a sanbox or megadungeon, where PCs are thrown a collection of adventures (or levels) which span different levels and the PCs can choose an easier adventure for less reward or a more difficult adventure for greater reward.
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Arachnofiend wrote:
Using Power Attack as your second strike seems counter-synergistic with Brutish Shove, which must be your second strike. I guess it's a choice between more damage and more control.

Using power attack and brutish shove in the same turn just seems like a bad idea. If you power attack second you can't brutish shove. If you power attack first your brutish shove has a -10 modifier to it. Unless of course your going for the miss effect and don't really care if it hits (in which case just attack twice normally and then brutish shove).

Bardarok wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:

Assuming a 60% chance of hitting with his first attack, I just dont see how power attack is better than 2 normal strikes with -5 on the second strike. Given that, I'm confused why Kaliban would like Power Attack so much. He isnt dealing more damage with the same action economy. He's dealing, on average, the same.

Has the crit system fundamentally changed so much to change the calculations making power attack a good choice? Or is it assumed lots of enemies will have resistance 5 or greater with little chance for Kaliban to overcome it?

Brutish Strike is a but nicer. Although I'll be interested to see how well "effect on a miss" plays out with the community. This was one of the most lambasted features of 4th ed martial characters and I'm surprised to see Paizo has brought it back with PF2e.

It's nice to see Bravery actually does something worthwhile in this edition.

I just did some math for power attack and it looks like you are right at 60% chance to hit (hit on a 9) Most of the time striking twice is better. However if you have a lower chance to hit power attack is better, power attack is best if you only have a 25% chance to hit. So it's useful against 'boss' monsters and as a follow up strike (if you have a 60% chance to hit on Strike 1, PA is better than doing Strike 2 and Strike 3)

Math: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HWbZbKEKS0RE0rDcfntFyQM_9YCVOCgzVH3 HgnMdpR0/edit?usp=sharing

Things like weakness or bonus damage shift this in favor of two strikes. Resistance shifts this in favor of power attack.

Apparently that link doesn't work. Try This

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cozzymandias wrote:
AnCap Dawg wrote:
nohar wrote:
i still don't quite understand how xp works in the new system...the playtest rules didn't explain it well to me and since doomsday dawn didn't award xp i never got to see any examples in action...hopefully the final rules will do a better job of making me understand...

I'm a bit confused about it as well. I was hoping Stephen would go into more detail about that, but it got skipped for juicier parts that would be interesting to more players.

It seems weird to me that it only takes 1000xp per level instead of an increasing amount each level.

Assuming it works the same as the playtest, XP is now based not on the actual CR of the encounter but rather the encounters CR relative to APL. So for example a CR 5 encounter would give a level 3 party 400 XP (or whatever) while the same encounter would give a level 7 party 200 XP. this way, you get more XP for punching above your weight, but the amount needed to level up can stay at a nice neat 1000 XP/level.

Yeah, this. A goblin might be worth 40xp at level 1, 20xp at level 2, 10xp at level 3 and nothing for levels higher than that. It makes it easy to know how close characters are to leveling up, and the calculation for the GM when building encounters is not difficult.

Actually, for me, it makes building encounters easier, since I always know that I'm aiming for around 80-120xp per encounter to have something appropriately challenging for my party.
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The 1K XP set up makes it a lot easier to make judgement calls for bonus XP as well. Little festive bonuses stay the same across all levels. I really like that.
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1k XP/level as the baseline also makes it much easier to homebrew your own slow or fast (or fast then slow) progression tracks since 1000 is a really easy number to perform math on.

Plus, let's face it- putting "XP to next level" front and center instead of "total XP" is more or less the standard now anyway.
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Arachnofiend wrote:
Using Power Attack as your second strike seems counter-synergistic with Brutish Shove, which must be your second strike. I guess it's a choice between more damage and more control.

Well, he didn't choose Brutish Shove in the end, after all, so maybe it isn't meant to be the perfect pairing? After all, if he hadn't taken the wizard dedication there still would have been other fighter feats to pick from.

But the thing about Brutish Shove (and control options in general) is that they are situational. Making an enemy flat-footed is irrelevant if the enemy is already flat-footed (there are a lot of ways to make this happen) and Shoving them around the battle field is going to get varying results depending on the battle field. Brutish Shove is going to be very good indeed in certain situations, but when it isn't, having Strike > Power Attack as a fallback seems like a good way to maximize your damage.
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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:

Is it me or Brutish shove is awesome? Yeah, it is Press but you get a full strike + 2 riders on it for no cost. Even on a Failure it causes flat-footed? Will be spamming this every turn!

Also, can the guy from this blog cast Shield while holding his 2h Maul? Are "free hands" not needed for somatic components again?

Just checked the PT, and in there the Shield Cantrip only requires a Verbal Component; if this is true for the Final Print then yes, you should be able to use it with a 2h weapon.

This. And in addition, PT update 1.6 made Somatic Components usable without a free hand. Material still needs it. Hoping they keep that tho.

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Captain Morgan wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Using Power Attack as your second strike seems counter-synergistic with Brutish Shove, which must be your second strike. I guess it's a choice between more damage and more control.

Well, he didn't choose Brutish Shove in the end, after all, so maybe it isn't meant to be the perfect pairing? After all, if he hadn't taken the wizard dedication there still would have been other fighter feats to pick from.

But the thing about Brutish Shove (and control options in general) is that they are situational. Making an enemy flat-footed is irrelevant if the enemy is already flat-footed (there are a lot of ways to make this happen) and Shoving them around the battle field is going to get varying results depending on the battle field. Brutish Shove is going to be very good indeed in certain situations, but when it isn't, having Strike > Power Attack as a fallback seems like a good way to maximize your damage.

Picking a feat that you don't use often just... doesn't feel very good. I try to avoid it where possible. I likely would not take Brutish Shove if someone else in the party is already applying flat-footed; it and Power Attack not really working together and serving as alternative approaches to a 2h weapon isn't necessarily a bad thing for that reason.

Arachnofiend: Unless it’s changed dramatically from the PT I expect most fighter feats will be highly situational.
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Arachnofiend wrote:
Picking a feat that you don't use often just... doesn't feel very good. I try to avoid it where possible. I likely would not take Brutish Shove if someone else in the party is already applying flat-footed; it and Power Attack not really working together and serving as alternative approaches to a 2h weapon isn't necessarily a bad thing for that reason.

It's no worse than all the "X/day" feats/class features from P1. And it's loads better than all the "you'll never use this feat but it's step one in the 5 feat chain you have to take to actually have fun" feats.

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Unless I'm missing something, Brutish Shove is a strictly better option than a strike for your second or third attack, right? You're not forced to make the shove if you don't want to. I would use it often unless I had an even better press feat to make use of, which is fine by my standards (unless some of the feats end up so good, you'll never use any others).
Mechalibur wrote:
Unless I'm missing something, Brutish Shove is a strictly better option than a strike for your second or third attack, right? You're not forced to make the shove if you don't want to. I would use it often unless I had an even better press feat to make use of, which is fine by my standards (unless some of the feats end up so good, you'll never use any others).

Eh, depends. As a level 2 feat maybe? It depends on what the level 1 options end up being; but this only makes them flat-footed 1) after you hit them with what ends up being your second strike and 2) only until the end of your current turn. From seeing what the Fighter could do at later levels in the PT i’m sure this ends up being a very powerful tool, but as early as level 2? If you aren’t shoving them it’s not that great with what little info we currently have.

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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Eh, depends. As a level 2 feat maybe? It depends on what the level 1 options end up being; but this only makes them flat-footed 1) after you hit them with what ends up being your second strike and 2) only until the end of your current turn. From seeing what the Fighter could do at later levels in the PT i’m sure this ends up being a very powerful tool, but as early as level 2? If you aren’t shoving them it’s not that great with what little info we currently have.

Since they are flatfooted even if you miss, just missing can set up flatfooted for others that ready an action triggered by you using Brutish Shove: a rogue for instance, could attack with a ranged weapon, ready and then sneak attack the newly flatfooted foe [or reload, ready and sneak attack for a reload 1 weapon].

Dark Archive
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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm, abilities that allow for teamwork with other party members are nice to be honest.

Like I think people often focus on "one vs one" scenarios, but it does kinda suck when character's only good utility is dealing as much damage as possible.
Dark Archive
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Wow, 'Bravery' seems to be a lot better now [compared to 1E] and might actually do something for your fighter!

Hmmm... how do ability score boosts work in the final rules? Do you get bonuses to multiple abilities, or just one? And did I understand correctly that you gain +2 if the score is under 18, otherwise it's just +1 (e.g. 16->18, 19->20)?
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I think Brutish Shove is pretty nice, actually. It can push an enemy away from a vulnerable party member, allowing them to get to a save distance more easily. And since you can move along, the enemy might just risk an AoO if he tries to go after said party member (assuming the party member manages at least one Step back before the enemy's next turn).

I could see myself using it at least once per battle, which is pretty good in my book. I'd most likely use it in turn one (Stride to the enemy, attack once, Brutish Shove) before doing a "full-attack" on turn two (which might by Strike -> Power Attack).

There might also be feats that improve Brutish Shove at higher levels. I'm thinking along the lines of PF1's Shield Slam (if the target is shoved into a wall it falls prone).

Seeing how this fighter multiclassed to Wizard I also wonder if you have to use your spellcasting ability for spell attack rolls. Would probably be a good idea for this particular character, but a Dex 18/Int 14 rogue might want to use Dex for his spell attacks instead.
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Mechalibur wrote:
Unless I'm missing something, Brutish Shove is a strictly better option than a strike for your second or third attack, right?

I think all of the press options in the playtest were better than "standard strike" assuming the enhancement was something you would actually want so seeing that persist into the final game is not surprising.

Verdant Wheel
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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:

Is it me or Brutish shove is awesome? Yeah, it is Press but you get a full strike + 2 riders on it for no cost. Even on a Failure it causes flat-footed? Will be spamming this every turn!

Also, can the guy from this blog cast Shield while holding his 2h Maul? Are "free hands" not needed for somatic components again?

Just checked the PT, and in there the Shield Cantrip only requires a Verbal Component; if this is true for the Final Print then yes, you should be able to use it with a 2h weapon.

The verbal component is yelling "Shield!" while you swing that baseball bat.

Dark Archive

And is there an option (in the core rulebook) for random hit points, i.e. rolling for them? I know I can easily house-rule that, but I'm curious if it's a variant/core option in the book...
Silver Crusade
Asgetrion wrote:

Wow, 'Bravery' seems to be a lot better now [compared to 1E] and might actually do something for your fighter!

Hmmm... how do ability score boosts work in the final rules? Do you get bonuses to multiple abilities, or just one? And did I understand correctly that you gain +2 if the score is under 18, otherwise it's just +1 (e.g. 16->18, 19->20)?

I know at level one you boost 4 stats, and I've not heard anything to the contrary for later levels. 5, 10, 15, and 20 should all provide 4 boosts each time (+2 if the stat is lower than 18, +1 if it's higher). I don't know that we for sure have that confirmed as fact but I think it's been all but outright stated. Someone better informed/more awake may come in and correct me, which is fine, but that's my recollection!

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Asgetrion wrote:
And is there an option (in the core rulebook) for random hit points, i.e. rolling for them? I know I can easily house-rule that, but I'm curious if it's a variant/core option in the book...

I think most of the variant rules are going to wait for the GMG. Only one I would expect (and it wouldn't be wholly surprising if this gets punted to the GMG too) is "rolling for stats."

After all, both variants invite the GM to consider things like "intraparty balance" and "rebalancing encounters" (as the monsters would have more HP relative to the PCs compared to the normal situation).

But I can't imagine "can we roll for HP" to be a thing players actually ask for, since it sucks when the Barbarian rolls a 1 on the d12.
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It would be super easy to house rule. you character get 2 hp per level? d4 he get 4? d8 etc.
Dark Archive
Arrendis Lionheart wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:

Wow, 'Bravery' seems to be a lot better now [compared to 1E] and might actually do something for your fighter!

Hmmm... how do ability score boosts work in the final rules? Do you get bonuses to multiple abilities, or just one? And did I understand correctly that you gain +2 if the score is under 18, otherwise it's just +1 (e.g. 16->18, 19->20)?

I know at level one you boost 4 stats, and I've not heard anything to the contrary for later levels. 5, 10, 15, and 20 should all provide 4 boosts each time (+2 if the stat is lower than 18, +1 if it's higher). I don't know that we for sure have that confirmed as fact but I think it's been all but outright stated. Someone better informed/more awake may come in and correct me, which is fine, but that's my recollection!

That is how it worked in the playtest, right? It's fine if you can only boost 2 stats, but 4? That's a lot, maybe even too much. I think +1 to all stats at levels 5 and 15 would be cool to represent overall learning from your experiences, but in that case the boosts at levels 10 and 20 should (IMO) be just a single +1/+2 to one stat. Regardless, I like that it's harder to raise higher ability scores.

Silver Crusade
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
It would be super easy to house rule. you character get 2 hp per level? d4 he get 4? d8 etc.

Given that the average roll on d4 is 2,5 and on d8 it's 4,5 it's not as super easy, apparently ;)

Dark Archive
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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:
And is there an option (in the core rulebook) for random hit points, i.e. rolling for them? I know I can easily house-rule that, but I'm curious if it's a variant/core option in the book...

I think most of the variant rules are going to wait for the GMG. Only one I would expect (and it wouldn't be wholly surprising if this gets punted to the GMG too) is "rolling for stats."

After all, both variants invite the GM to consider things like "intraparty balance" and "rebalancing encounters" (as the monsters would have more HP relative to the PCs compared to the normal situation).

But I can't imagine "can we roll for HP" to be a thing players actually ask for, since it sucks when the Barbarian rolls a 1 on the d12.

Heh, although I'm a GM, I also play in many campaigns, and I've always preferred to roll my PCs' hit points. Always getting max. HP also downplays, I think, feats such as Toughness and others like it. I *do* prefer getting max. HP at 1st level, though.

That's how I and the people I game with feel, but then again we *are* grognards who started gaming back in the early days of our hobby. I just love the excitement and terror each time you level up and roll for hit points... and the utter feeling of triumph when you roll that 8 or 10 or 12!

Randomizing hit points is easy to house-rule, and it is not a major issue for me anyway. :)
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Gorbacz wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
It would be super easy to house rule. you character get 2 hp per level? d4 he get 4? d8 etc.
Given that the average roll on d4 is 2,5 and on d8 it's 4,5 it's not as super easy, apparently ;)

I mean if you want to be difficult I suppose you could order custom dice like d3,5,7,9 etc.

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Eh just give the result -1 every other level.

I feel like people are misunderstanding me a bit here - Brutish Shove is a great feat, and one that I would likely take if it works well enough with the rest of the party (obviously if the Rogue is making people flat-footed already you don't take it). I simply mean that, so long as other options are available, I would not take both Brutish Shove and Power Attack. Their benefits conflict to each other enough that surely there's gotta be something better to take with those feat slots.
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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Asgetrion wrote:
That is how it worked in the playtest, right? It's fine if you can only boost 2 stats, but 4? That's a lot, maybe even too much. I think +1 to all stats at levels 5 and 15 would be cool to represent overall learning from your experiences, but in that case the boosts at levels 10 and 20 should (IMO) be just a single +1/+2 to one stat. Regardless, I like that it's harder to raise higher ability scores.

Remember this is a new system, and attribute values may not scale along what we are used to from the old system. The new system is built around this kind of attribute increase, so I am not worried, that these boosts are "too much".

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Asgetrion wrote:
And is there an option (in the core rulebook) for random hit points, i.e. rolling for them? I know I can easily house-rule that, but I'm curious if it's a variant/core option in the book...

I doubt it. I haven't seen someone roll for HP in PF for 8 years? 10? Maybe it was 3.5 and not even PF that it was done.

4d4 would be an appropriate dice amount for 10 HP if you want complete parity. Otherwise 3d6 or 2d10 would be close enough.

Arachnofiend: I wouldn't be so sure. We will know in a few weeks though.
Dark Archive
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John Lynch 106 wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:
And is there an option (in the core rulebook) for random hit points, i.e. rolling for them? I know I can easily house-rule that, but I'm curious if it's a variant/core option in the book...

I doubt it. I haven't seen someone roll for HP in PF for 8 years? 10? Maybe it was 3.5 and not even PF that it was done.

4d4 would be an appropriate dice amount for 10 HP if you want complete parity. Otherwise 3d6 or 2d10 would be close enough.

Arachnofiend: I wouldn't be so sure. We will know in a few weeks though.

Heh, we've always rolled for hit points, although around 25-30 years ago we house-ruled that at 1st level you are allowed to roll until you get at least half of maximum (naturally rounded down; for example, 2 for wizards and 5 for fighters). But that applied only at 1st level, after that you rolled only once. When PF came out it became max. at 1st level and then you rolled. :)

I think I don't want that kind of weird parity; I'll stick with how it worked in PF 1E. And it's probably not that hard to adjust NPC and monster HPs accordingly, right?
Dark Archive
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Zaister wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:
That is how it worked in the playtest, right? It's fine if you can only boost 2 stats, but 4? That's a lot, maybe even too much. I think +1 to all stats at levels 5 and 15 would be cool to represent overall learning from your experiences, but in that case the boosts at levels 10 and 20 should (IMO) be just a single +1/+2 to one stat. Regardless, I like that it's harder to raise higher ability scores.
Remember this is a new system, and attribute values may not scale along what we are used to from the old system. The new system is built around this kind of attribute increase, so I am not worried, that these boosts are "too much".

Certainly, and this may have been done to compensate for PCs getting less stat boosts from magical items and buffs, so the game math is likely in balance. However, it may feel weird in the sense that 10th level PCs have gained 8 boosts to their stats (so 16 in total, +8 in bonuses), making them literally feel like mutants or proto-superheroes in the making. I personally prefer character growth that emphasizes skills, feats and abilities/talents, and subtle [permanent] raises to ability scores.

Silver Crusade
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Brutish Shove looks very nice, especially with a Rogue in the party. Bop the enemy and it's a sitting duck for a Sneak Attack, every round (there won't be many rounds).

The power trajectory in PF2 looks steeper than PF1. At level 3, Kaliban has +7 Will (a good number in this edition), 44 HP and is ok at spells already. Compare that competence to a level 1 character.

Leaked photos of the multiclass pages of the new rulebook show Kaliban's pic on the Wizard multiclass page. And here he is, casting Shield before whaling on someone with his big hammer. He's named, he's built well and he looks cool. Good chap. I welcome our new iconic Kaliban!
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Asgetrion wrote:
That's how I and the people I game with feel, but then again we *are* grognards who started gaming back in the early days of our hobby.

LOL You're not the only old codger around here: back when I started, your options for classes were fighting-man, magic-user and cleric! That said, I don't miss the days of rolling as I've seen too many inhuman creatures that should have never lived to see the light of day rolled up over the years...

Fighting man... well at least super hero's were an option back then. ( :D )
Dark Archive
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graystone wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:
That's how I and the people I game with feel, but then again we *are* grognards who started gaming back in the early days of our hobby.
LOL You're not the only old codger around here: back when I started, your options for classes were fighting-man, magic-user and cleric! That said, I don't miss the days of rolling as I've seen too many inhuman creatures that should have never lived to see the light of day rolled up over the years...

HAHA! Well said, graystone! :DDD

BTW, you just reminded me of one such "inhuman creature", an elven thief (my PC) who was 2nd level, had Con 2 and (not surprisingly) 2 HPs! ;)

(that one didn't have a long career, as you might have guessed!)
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Asgetrion wrote:
BTW, you just reminded me of one such "inhuman creature", an elven thief (my PC) who was 2nd level, had Con 2 and (not surprisingly) 2 HPs! ;)

I once saw someone roll a 5th level ad&d barbarian [1d12 hd] with a 16 con [+4 hp/level] and get 25 hp... Yes, 5 1's in a row on a 1d12. I think he lasted 2 rooms before a big lizard crit him for 30.

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I just wanted to add: I am excited for the new rules! And thank you for taking away the need of the GM to calculate power attack for almost every monster prior to play.
Asgetrion wrote:
I think I don't want that kind of weird parity; I'll stick with how it worked in PF 1E. And it's probably not that hard to adjust NPC and monster HPs accordingly, right?
Asgetrion wrote:
I personally prefer character growth that emphasizes skills, feats and abilities/talents, and subtle [permanent] raises to ability scores.

What edition did you start playing? Was it AD&D? Because it sounds like you've been playing the same game from the days of AD&D to 3.0 to 3.5 to PF1e. With each new edition simply being a software upgrade.

If that is the case then your going to be better off sticking with PF1e. Based on the playtest I expect PF2e to be a radical departure and not to be the software upgrade you've grown accustomed to with previous edition changes.

Asgetrion wrote:
That's how I and the people I game with feel, but then again we *are* grognards who started gaming back in the early days of our hobby.

Yeah. The days of gradual changes across editions are long gone. Each new edition is now a radical rebuild. Feel free to check out the books (I'd suggest the SRD myself) but I don't think your going to find what your looking for in PF2e.

Silver Crusade
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

AD&D to 3.0e was a massive, revolutionary change, in case your rose-tinted glasses got a bit foggy.

I have a weird understanding problem with the new wording of "Brutish Shove". Namely: Is it supposed to do damage and then shove or just shove instead of dealing damage? Oo

The playtest version had the shoving as an "enhancement" so it was clear that it was additional. But when I read the description in this blog entry... it sounds to me as if it just does the shoving.

Is that right?
Silver Crusade
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I believe since it doesn't say the target takes no damage from the Strike it would still indeed deal damage.
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Kelseus wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Picking a feat that you don't use often just... doesn't feel very good. I try to avoid it where possible. I likely would not take Brutish Shove if someone else in the party is already applying flat-footed; it and Power Attack not really working together and serving as alternative approaches to a 2h weapon isn't necessarily a bad thing for that reason.
It's no worse than all the "X/day" feats/class features from P1. And it's loads better than all the "you'll never use this feat but it's step one in the 5 feat chain you have to take to actually have fun" feats.

Both of those were bad, but not the only options.

On the other hand, 'Situational' is something strange and frustrating in the new system, since that is where the class's utility and power often lies.

-----
I'm puzzled by the new XP system. Having it as a spendable currency suggests there are other uses for it (otherwise I don't see the point in changing it from a running total), but this part of the level process got short shrift. What's going on?

I get that encounters are all now relative to party level and in theory keeping it at 1000 a level is 'simpler math,' but it read like an omission was happening for later reveal.
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Voss wrote:


I'm puzzled by the new XP system. Having it as a spendable currency suggests there are other uses for it (otherwise I don't see the point in changing it from a running total), but this part of the level process got short shrift. What's going on?

I think you may be reading too much into it... I see it as simply improving support for customised XP tracks. For example you could decide to skip the early levels faster, so maybe you needed 500xp to get to level 2 but 800 xp to level 3. So once your character would beat 13x40 XP encounters, they would be 2nd level with 20 XP on their way to next level. Saying "they have 520 XP" would not mean much on its own without also mentioning the XP track they're on.

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rainzax wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:

Is it me or Brutish shove is awesome? Yeah, it is Press but you get a full strike + 2 riders on it for no cost. Even on a Failure it causes flat-footed? Will be spamming this every turn!

Also, can the guy from this blog cast Shield while holding his 2h Maul? Are "free hands" not needed for somatic components again?

Just checked the PT, and in there the Shield Cantrip only requires a Verbal Component; if this is true for the Final Print then yes, you should be able to use it with a 2h weapon.
The verbal component is yelling "Shield!" while you swing that baseball bat.

If Shield Block is now a Fighter-baseline feature (and available as a general feat, but otherwise exclusive), I see no reason to believe the Shield spell will be similar to the playtest version.

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Secret Wizard wrote:
rainzax wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:

Is it me or Brutish shove is awesome? Yeah, it is Press but you get a full strike + 2 riders on it for no cost. Even on a Failure it causes flat-footed? Will be spamming this every turn!

Also, can the guy from this blog cast Shield while holding his 2h Maul? Are "free hands" not needed for somatic components again?

Just checked the PT, and in there the Shield Cantrip only requires a Verbal Component; if this is true for the Final Print then yes, you should be able to use it with a 2h weapon.
The verbal component is yelling "Shield!" while you swing that baseball bat.
If Shield Block is now a Fighter-baseline feature (and available as a general feat, but otherwise exclusive), I see no reason to believe the Shield spell will be similar to the playtest version.

Why not? They got rid of light shields, as far as I know. So having the Shield cantrip granting +1 AC while the physical item shield will grant +2 seems reasonable.

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