I understand these direct rules interpretations of these spell, but my question was more about how casual use of magic makes a difference in the world. Keftiu gets where I'm going with this, PF2 makes more low-level magic ordinary, like Eberron. Very ordinary, 0 level NPCs can cast spells and create alchemical objects.
Ideally, the theme of this question is less whether e.g. Chill Touch does negative or cold damage, rather it is how trivial magic interacts with the environment and setting.
No limit use cantrips were a thing in PF1, and not hard to get, but now pretty much any ancestry can grab a cantrip with no power or levelling, merely from being born. The system in general and Golarion in particular are very high-magic settings, how does this affect the ordinary person?
Heritages matter and are relevant to even the lowliest NPC, consider the Cavern or Desert Elf's Darkvision or heat protection for example. Similarly, an unlimited use cantrip is quite an ordinary thing for many otherwise ordinary folk.I'd like to explore how these might work in the game, and perhaps in the game's in-world society.
- STABILIZE is superb. That and profiency in medicine make a perfectly capable village nurse or the lay clergy for someone like Sarenrae.
- MESSAGE has many ordinary uses. Gossips, government officials, criminals - but also consider the uses in a high-magic, low-tech city. Have an NPC with this cantrip in the town's best inn and have links to the receptionist in the town hall. This is a basis for rudimentary telecommunications.
- PRESTIDIGITATION is fun, and I'd expect children's entertainers to spam it. It also has the tidy and cook capabilities - the head chef at Magnimar's best restaurant spams it. The ultra fast but expensive dry cleaner spams it.
- JOIN PASTS is for diplomats and marriage counsellers.
- LIGHT is for explorers and guides. Perhaps very lavish aristocrats employ Light casters instead of candles?
- PRODUCE FLAME has many practical uses. Lamplighters, firestarters etc. I can imagine a tundra guide with no fighting ability but some Survival skill and this cantrip being a very employable NPC.
- CHILL TOUCH. I have seen a reference in Curse of Plaguestone that this can be used to make ice from normal water. There you go. Chill Touch can make ice. useful for preservation and bartending.
- Most of the offensive cantrips are not much use for NPC jobs and may make the person unwelcome in their little society, but even then I can imgaine ACID SPLASH being useful in something like mining or cleaning work.
- GUIDANCE is extremely useful for PCs and no less for NPCs. It works in every walk of life - a quick boost to your Diplomacy as a beaurocrat, a help with your smithing, etc.
No published adventure I have seen has these minor tricks yet in a setting with access to such magic being trivial, wouldn't they be used? Would there not be a niche?
Ideas very welcome.
Data Lore wrote:
How often will a crit success come up though? I know its more than 5% of the time in this version but I dunno. Tickling an enemy's brain for 4 damage for the first 4 levels of play just hoping to take an action or two away from a foe maybe once every few combats is just not super dramatic (or super tactically sound, imo).
1e Daze had to be trained out or torn from the spellbook after level 4 or so. This 2e Daze might be useful. The damage is nothing, the spell is only useful on enemies we can crit success on. It's not for bossses, it's for the pet of a boss, it's for a dumb henchman. Played right, as Seifter says, they are vulnerable for a round as they don't get to use their violent and dangerous Reaction. The casting range is 60' - cutting away one of the three encounter actions can stop a charge or a second attack and a reaction.
It's a battlefield control spell - and you won't find many of that type in the cantrip list.
Hey RavingDork -can you make a good Battle Herald?
Always loved the concept, cannot make it work. In 2e we can make a LG Bard with Paladin Iomedae Dedication, but we don't need the armour, we only need the military, troop inspiring stuff. We won't even be first into battle, it's a commander, not a commando.
The Lastwall knight stuff looked inviting until I saw it was mostly undead fighting.
You know the Marshall Mythic path? THat sort of thing. A Bard who is also a field officer. A person who by 20th level is the general of her army, not only by Legndary Performance alone.
It's only for mooks, but it's ok and it's free, spammable. At low levels, it might be the knock-over punch. At higher levels it's not so bad to put on a big brute of a mook in the way of your Barbarian. Losing an action in a round is losing the combat, throwing a cantrip at an animal or Ogre to make them lose the round isn't a waste.
Captain Morgan wrote:
Seconded. It's a game with rules, and how we love our rules, but the number one rule is letting people play. It's a game for all. it's about imagination.
I love Paizo's hardline stance on inclusivity, it is not half-hearted, it is sincere and yes please.
What tf is this guy saying about not being able to build a creative character? Within the rules I can make a Halfling junkie katapeshi belly dancer transexual, and they will still get their 10th level Bard spells. If you must have some funny ideas about character constraints, there is nothing stopping you from making a Prophet of Kalistrade Hellknight, proclaiming Make Avistan Great Again.
In a party, damage dealing isn't everything.
In PF1, my Witch didn't cause a single hit point of direct damage until level 8 (eventually cast a lightning bolt, to be fair the baddies were in single file down a corridor, it would be rude not to). You on this board know that that did not make my Witch useless,you'll rightly suspect that she was vital to the party and shortened most battles by at least a round.
In PF2, I intend to play a Bard, and as a fan of support, i'm not sure I care about direct damage. A Bard can cast twice a round, buff and debuff. I'd be delighted if he never has to draw his rapier. Damage is what the Fighter and Rogue are in melee for. You won't see them complain about a pure support caster in the party. And that support Bard can go all day without proper spells. Focus points can be regained by writing a diary or admiring the nearest tree.
Another side effect is that Enchanters get a boost. In 1e, Enchanters were cool but very limited (there were odd cases like Kitsune Fey Sorcerer), but now...
Have you seen the Wiz Enchanter's Focus spells? Dread Aura lasts a minute, no save Frightened. In 2e this school is a powerful choice.
And now Sorshen can defend herself against the Tyrant.
Battle Herald to come back as an archetype.
Good for Fighters, Champions, Bards and more. We play a game which involves lots of fighting, professional military officer should be an archetype. The PF1 Prestige class was very weird, requiring obscure Monk or Cavalier Archetypes to work. a PF2 Battle Herald (or Military Officer, or Warlord, or Commander etc.) will allow for a more strategy-minded Paladin of Iomedae or a brave Bard barking orders.
I've been making a character inspired by a picture in the Core book, the Bard dancer.
I like the groovy clothes, her attractive complexion, that Mwangi clever magical hippie thing and that 2e Bards have been given the red carpet.
Now we have the Magaambya Academic archetype, just to fit my concept and it's a doozy, especially for a Bard. All killer, no filler. I'll be having that, thank you Paizo people.
The Ancestry stats are very useable. Let's have... a Venus Flytrap Leshy Barbarian with Frog Animal Instinct (for tongue and bite) and Herbalist Background, maybe a skill increase into Performance, for singing...
We have Audrey II from Little Shop Of Horrors.
The best bit is that this isn't wholly a joke build, it's a playable build.
The Pathfinder 1st edition with Arcane Duelist Bards, Sandman, Archaologist, Dervish Dancer, Celebrity, Buccaneer...
It's been a long long time since hey-nonny-no lutists, courtly love simperers have had to be a thing.
...I skimmed through as Bards aren't interesting to me. Even so, I would like to know what's going on with it in case one of my players wanted to be one in the future.
One of your players will play one, so best read up, OP. A Dancer Maestro Bard has a claim to be the best PC buffer in the game. That silly disco Halfling can use a bow or a sword and shield and... still waltz or bogle, and still cast, and still buff. Bards are no longer effete poets with feathers in hats*
*and when was that last a thing? the old Robin Hood movies?
I can imagine many Barbarians going the Intimidation route, Raging Intimidation gives you three feats for the price of one and Intimidating Prowess is just a good idea. Planets do not need to align for a modestly well-built Barbarian to become lethal at Demoralise.
Tangentially, given that boosting Cha is sensible for many Barbarians now, and the free level boosts, I do epect to see a lot of Sorc MCs, people going for a Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple thing. Cool, but I digress.
That's the thing, I don't think chat sabotaged it. Now, they didn't play as nice as some - the Sailor background for Storm Druid fits very happily into such a build for example, and everyone had at least one thing that was unused or deliberately silly, the Chameleon bit for that Druid for example. So even though all three of the other PCs had fun or flavour parts, they were all mechanically quite good builds, they all worked. A goblin who thinks he's a shark... fine. Silly, but works quite well, a viable melee PC.
I'm in agreement with you essentially, Chat and Mark Seifter didn't sabotage him. I just don't know what the alchemist was for. He was... ok at fort saves?
But maybe that's ok too. PF1 Core had some trash like original Rogues and Monks, now they are both pretty good.
Yes, the Sorcerer and Druid weren't badly built at all. The Sorc had good spell, background and skill choices, and Luis played him well. Could not roll dice worth a damn, but here we are.
Mutagen alchemist is awful though. I know the dice were bad, but it would have to be powergamed to be any use at all. Twitch had sympathy for most of the players, but not Cosmo. Dwarven Weapons feat? Unused, and wouldnt have been any good anyway. A familiar? Useless, maybe better had he been able to craft, but useless (and irritating).
The Barbarian was straight-up good, so some things have not changed from PF1, 1st level Barbarians do the business.
I'll join the call for a Commander/Warlord but I'm not sure it needs a class, a general Archetype might do.
In PF1 I loved the Battle Herald, but they were a bit of a pain to get going, generally requiring Standard Bearer Cavalier. In PF2, I want my Bard to be able to do it, be the absolute master of buffs. Huge Cha, stand there shouting Inspire Courage and various Tactics. If the Commander is a class, that's ok, I'm quite happy to take the dedication, but it can be used with so many other classes it might have to be more open. A Barbarian/Warlord or Champion/Knight or Fighter/Commander - I don't have to expand on these concepts for us to see the value in such a character.
There is a bit of a concern with the proposed Cavalier archetype. If Good on a mount and Tactician are both Archetype paths (either general or MC) then replicating the PF1 Cavalier might be difficult. I'd prefer Good on a horse just to be a couple of feats, then it works for Paladins or even a Ranger shooting from horseback.
Do you know what other Heritage is good? That Monkey Goblin.
In PF1 a Monkey Goblin Pirate rogue was a laugh and all, but not all that. In PF2 that pictured PC is very strong. Rogue is a good class, Sailor is a good Background and Monkey Goblin makes it all the sweeter. Grab Cat Fall as one of the Rogue's many Skill Feats and you are a v mobile and deadly striker pretty much out of the gate. Nice.
We're veering off-topic, and Mage Armour was always a bit rubbish, just something to spend a 1st level slot on. The price was very nice for the duration. A proper defensive spell is Mirror Image. Is that any good in this edition? In 1e it was the best defence for the investment, and it wasn't close.
Do need to know this as when my books arrive the first character I'll make will be a Bard, and this the only ranged attack Occult cantrip.
Can we throw knives? Acid flasks,alchemist fire? Put it this way, I want to hit someome with a handful of caltrops for the Telekenetic Projectile damage, then the caltrops fall and makes that enemy's space difficult terrain. Is this ok? A bit good for a cantrip, but ok?
Always down with weird bits of lore like this. Want to read it. I have to applaud any book which discusses the Prophet of Kalistrade.
That prestige class is bonkers. The character has to be rich, but explicitly not enjoy the wealth, unless looking at big numbers is your jam. In return they get... the worst PrC in the game, a semi-sorcerer an Adept would look down on. I can't think of a way to make one mechanically playable. Roleplay-playable is easy, we don't have to look far to see examples of blinding monetary greed.
Edit: One of the authors, Mr. Hillman, is very aware of this:
Mona supports the attempt.
Ha ha. Good luck with that, the class is hopeless. :)
Oh boy, it's really good. Cannot wait.
The Befriend a Local activity rule is a great idea and should be used in the wider game. It lets a PC interact with an NPC using mutual skills, rather than just Diplomacy. Thus a low-cha Wizard doesn't need to use Diplomacy to make friends at the university, he can use his Arcane skill, to talk to other nerds, that is their interest. Similarly, a gruff Ranger can go into the woods with a local guide, they can hug trees or whatever these types like to do and become friends based on the PC's Survival check. An excellent rule.
It seems a pity that two of the most obvious, least immediately interesting backgrounds are so mechanically good. Entertainer is not a particularly imaginative background for a Bard to take, but Fascinating Performance as a free feat is hard to ignore. It's so good. Similarly with Warrior. For an intimidation Barbarian (going on the route to get Scare to Death) that Intimidating Glare feat is gold, but a Warrior Barbarian isn't so inspiring.
On the other hand, both of those backgrounds are so broad that a decent back story can be made. Entertainer is anything from a jester to a playwright to a rapper. Warrior can be a guard or a gladiator or that village boy who must venture out for a trophy to become a man.
Edit- just seen the Age of Ashes players guide (gasp!) and for that barbarian, Dragon Scholar is just as good and much groovier. Get that. Dragons!
Wait, what's an enigma muse? New muse or a rename of a playtest muse?
I guess it is the Lore muse renamed.
Very odd feat though, especially as Enigma/Lore Bards will rinse most knowledge checks anyway. The wording doesn't help, does the GM just show the player the stat block, there, knock yourself out?
Not only does Kroft have a party of 17th level adenturers as allies, she does have cards to play, with them, at least. In CotCT, those PCs end up with their own Deck of Many Things!
How do NPCs work? Given that we no longer have Commoner, Aristocrat, Expert etc. what does an ordinary human person look like in the Bestiary? And how do we make her an expert (a sailor for instance)? Just give her Sailing Lore and Acrobatic proficiency? How are HP and other normally level-dependent attributes calculated?
Whoa there. I have bought them, not recieved them yet, nor do I expect them. The shop is totally legit. Bought and paid and now I can't wait for the postman come August. My dice might come quicker though, something to play with.
My coyness about the store is that Paizo shipping is v expensive outside the US and I'm not sure about advertising other resellers.
Anyway, roll on August, can't wait. I'll have rolled up 2e's baddest Bard within hours of feverish reading, 640 pages or not
IIRC the base assumption for a scoundrel rogue is a feint build, so 16 dex / 16 cha is probably what you want for them. More important for getting a +2 cha may be the potential to build an Arcane Trickster off of the Scoundrel Rogue chassis using a Sorcerer multiclass or being an ancestry with racial spells.
Arcane Trickster has so many possible builds now, expect to see loads of them. Your suggestion is very good, that chassis is also ideal for multiclass Bard.
In other news I have finally bought my books! Hooray!
I'm in the UK (so direct from Paizo is not ideal unfortunately) and I don't like Amazon so I shopped around and got a good deal, don't know if I can say where.
And even though I have to play online, I was so excited I bought a bunch of dice too
Pumpkinhead, Grognard, you are right we shouldn't derail the thread.
That chart is bizarre. Very happy to discuss it in a different thread. Only Humans and Drow are any good? Mountain Dwarfs have a Fighter limit?
I'm glad in PF2 that our boy Kaliban can become a Fighter 20 and he'll probably be casting 8th level Arcane spells. It does say something about the superhero power levels, Kaliban would astonish Gygax and Arneson but I like the ultra high-fantasy gonzo direction Pathfinder has become.
If Pathfinder 1 classes are eventually trickled back into second edition, which do you hope return first?
Nobody in their right mind doesn't love the concept of Swashbuckler, but I can't justify it as a class in PF2. As an Archetype (get good with rapiers, have a focus pool for Panache substitute), my goodness, yes please. There is too much crossover.
Fighter: We'll already get the Aldori Swordsman, and it's a fighter with a sword, no problems, more specialisation would be better.
Rogue: Again, we have a person who is handy at fencing. Merisiel herself is fond of a rapier, it's a thing.
Champion: A CG Liberator of Cayden Cailean wants a tankard in one hand and an epee in the other. This absolutely calls for a Swashbuckler archetype.
Alchemist: I'd like the Investigator to come back, but one can pull of a Sherlock Holmes type with this.
Bard: A flashing blade with quick wit and an eye for the ladies is a known trope with good reason, needs the archetype.
I could go on, but it's clear that many classes want to be able to swashbuckle, so many classes should be allowed to, thus make it an early-entry (and very good, please Paizo) Archetype. My one concern is combining it with other Archetypes, Pirate being an obvious example. How do you combine the two? A Fighter or Rogue with both the Swashbuckler and Pirate Archetypes makes a lot of thematic sense, but wouldn't have much of the build together until teenage levels. This is fine for a powerful enemy like a level 14 Pirate Queen, but tricky as a level 1 PC in a PF2 version of Skulls and Shackles. Minor problems though.
As for the others, I'm in broad agreement:
Witch: Hexes as focus spells/cantrips. Prepared Occult, with other spells from patron lists.
Oracle: Everyone loves them, the Curse/Revelation this was great, Divine Sorcer just doesn't cut it for me.
Kineticist: Can probably be done with Cantrip/Focus spells and Con stat in exchange for armour and weapon Expert/Master improvements.
Mesmerist: Superb and creepy class, can almost certainly be done as a level 1 Bard Archetype though.
Antipaladin/Tyrant: Not my cup of tea, but the rules are aready here for these baddies. The only discussion is the name of the NE version. MFer?
Shifter: Conceptually neccessary, but i wonder if it can be done with an Archetype? There are solid reasons why a Monk or Ranger or Fighter would want to be one. Barbarian can already do it a bit. Even Rogues should - a sneaky rogue who can turn into a bird or a cat is a solid PC.
Battle Herald/Tactitian: I know one was a PrC and 4e did a Marshall and the other was a Cavalier Archetype, but this please. We can probably do something with Bard/Champion multiclass, but It'd be nice to have a tough non-caster who hands out bonuses and coordinates the battlefield. I'd like to see clever generals with high Int or Cha who make those stats work. Bear in mind that in PF2 a PC gets a boost to four stats every few levels, by the end of a career it will be commonplace to have Int 18 Fighters and Wis 18 Rangers. May as well use it.
Brutish Shove looks very nice, especially with a Rogue in the party. Bop the enemy and it's a sitting duck for a Sneak Attack, every round (there won't be many rounds).
The power trajectory in PF2 looks steeper than PF1. At level 3, Kaliban has +7 Will (a good number in this edition), 44 HP and is ok at spells already. Compare that competence to a level 1 character.
Leaked photos of the multiclass pages of the new rulebook show Kaliban's pic on the Wizard multiclass page. And here he is, casting Shield before whaling on someone with his big hammer. He's named, he's built well and he looks cool. Good chap. I welcome our new iconic Kaliban!
I haven't seen a more boring and tangential discussion about a minor aspect of our game since the endless dross posted by fascists arguing for Paladins to be heartless cops.
Check this out:
I care a lot about our game and while I'm no cheerleader, I have been telling my friends and colleages on the down low that we play a good game. We play a game that is liberating for the mind. We play a game that brings friendship and imagination and a happy, inclusive environment.
I'd like to point newbies to this blog, but alas no. We can't get hype and spreading the word, we get folk who get upset about the definition of a 'week' in game time.
And they call us nerds.
the point about a 'prestige' class is that in PF1 one must be of a certain level, and in PF2, while that level limit may not be required, hoops must still be jumped through.
Thus in this case, your build for the class looks good, though I disagree with you about the Dedication feat and entry. The requirements to take the 'prestige archetype Arcane Archer' or whatever it will be called are more likely to be Trained in a bow (or crossbow) and Trained in a magic tradition, (even if just at cantrip level). It makes sense on a narrative level - if you want to be an Arcane Archer, you must already know how to cast a spell and draw a bow, but also it creates that level gate, for most people being able to do both ok will be about 6th level anyway.
There might be some early entries in the instance of Arcane Archer - Bards, Elves, Clerics of Erastil -but they are thematic anyway insofar as Pf1 is concerned. Similarly something like Mystic Theurge can be level gated simply by requiring Trained in two different traditions, Arcane and Divine the most obvious.
James Jacobs wrote:
Alderpash used to worship Baphomet. He doesn't any more. Gone off him recently (and not much there to worship). May even have converted to Iomedae if it gets him out.
Captain Morgan wrote:
It is indeed a feature. Here is a fun thing to do.
1. Be a Bard, borrow your Barbarian friend's Dread Blindfold.
2. Be Legendary in Performance, have Fascinating Performance and Legendary Performer. You are headlining Woodstock at this point, everyone loves you.
3. At the climax to one of your hit records you put on the Dread Blindfold
(Maybe not profit, it's possible someone might get hurt)
On the other hand, I do like how merely investing sufficiently in a skill can create superhuman effects. A Bard with Legendary Perofrmance and all the feats, like Fascinating Performance becomes world famous (if he wants) and can fill stadiums with fans both rapt and malleable. It's extrememly powerful, but only as gonzo as something like Scare to Death, with similar Intimidation investment (Combining the two however...)
Yes, that was awful, Reactionary, where every member of the party were bullied as a child. How did so many timid people all become adventurers? Entire parties of Scoobys and Shaggys, no Freds or Daphnes.
At least Reactionary can be roleplayed (poorly). There's that awesome one which boosts caster level but you have to have been raised in the woods by a weird monster or something.
Gladiatorial Lore is a funny one. Look at the crunch for the Gladiator Background:
"Choose two ability boosts. One must be to Strength or Charisma, and one is a free ability boost.
You gain the Fascinating Performance skill feat, and you’re trained in the Gladiatorial Lore skill."
+Cha and Facinating Performance. Perfect. Expect a lot of Bards to have come straight out of the fighting pits and know about weird weapons (which they can't use) and lions and tigers (which they can't fight).