Forging the Heroes of Undarin

Nice to see the Wizard Dedication feat lose the skill prerequisite and Natural Medicine lets nature sub in for medicine. Oh, and a gnome can now start off with 2 cantrips without being a caster. ;)

Overall, fairly nifty.

Folks...

Just to make a thing clear. Just because we offer a revision, does not mean that it is the way it is going to be in the final. At the very least there will be more options and choices made available in each ancestry. What was presented here is more of a proof of concept. If folks like the direction, we will continue to explore its full implementation.

Hope that clears things up.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Fuzzypaws wrote:

I notice the ancestries are still hilariously imbalanced. Gnomes can get Darkvision with a heritage, while halflings can get low light with a heritage, and that halfling heritage doesn't give anything else on top of the low light.

This is because Gnomes already have Low Light Vision. Both Heritages upgrade the vision one category.

One category each, sure. Those categories aren't equal. Low-light barely even does anything under the current rules, while Darkvision is a 1000% or even 10000% upgrade from low light.

I tend to agree. Adding a dim light radius to light sources would go a long way in making low light more desirable.

* Not sure why Ancient Blood needs to penalize your Resonance, none of the other Heritages seem to have drawbacks.

* Keen-Eared Elf seems soooo fiddly with different modifiers at different ranges. Jungle Elf could just be called Wood Elf because all those abilities work just as well in temperate forests. And being good in forests seems like more of a "this is what a typical elf is like" ability than being really good in finding invisible creatures.

* Not sure why gnomes and halflings got the speed increase.. I know being slow is annoying, but differentiation is good, and the gap between humans and short 'uns had gotten smaller already. Now dwarves are the odd one out. Why are dwarves slower than halflings or gnomes now?

* Sharp-Nosed Gnome continues with the theme of the "standard" race having some really specific sensory ability while the odd races have broad, simple and strong abilities.

* Vivacious Conduit seems (depending on how other healing things develop) like such a much more powerful ability than all other racial feats.

The first Goblin Scuttle was indeed not supposed to be level 9 alongside the follow-up, as you guys guessed.

Folks...

Just to make a thing clear. Just because we offer a revision, does not mean that it is the way it is going to be in the final. At the very least there will be more options and choices made available in each ancestry. What was presented here is more of a proof of concept. If folks like the direction, we will continue to explore its full implementation.

Hope that clears things up.

It's actually a good first step. :) Just needs polish and a lot of rebalancing. The concept of choosing a heritage is fine, it's more the specific things (and names) assigned to each one. More of the base ancestries still need some love / abilities too.

(And I'll keep saying it, more ancestries, and iconics of those ancestries, so we have the same number of ancestries as classes!)

So a 10th level Elf Monk with Elf Step, Winding Path, Nimble, and Tiger Style can spend 3 actions for 2 consecutive 10' steps, a Flurry of Blows, then a 10' step and a 55' stride.

I figure that seems like a fun character.

* Not sure why Ancient Blood needs to penalize your Resonance, none of the other Heritages seem to have drawbacks.

* Keen-Eared Elf seems soooo fiddly with different modifiers at different ranges. Jungle Elf could just be called Wood Elf because all those abilities work just as well in temperate forests. And being good in forests seems like more of a "this is what a typical elf is like" ability than being really good in finding invisible creatures.

* Not sure why gnomes and halflings got the speed increase.. I know being slow is annoying, but differentiation is good, and the gap between humans and short 'uns had gotten smaller already. Now dwarves are the odd one out. Why are dwarves slower than halflings or gnomes now?

* Sharp-Nosed Gnome continues with the theme of the "standard" race having some really specific sensory ability while the odd races have broad, simple and strong abilities.

* Vivacious Conduit seems (depending on how other healing things develop) like such a much more powerful ability than all other racial feats.

Vivacious Conduit definitely seems quite strong It probably needs to heal like half its current amount and cost either resonance or spell points(giving you like 2 or 3 to utilize it with if it cost SP). At least if they wanted to move it more in line with the others at current.

Granted I'd kinda like to see the other get boosted up a bit since these are level 9 feats but even then it probably still needs some sort of limiter, else the all martial all gnome partys shall fight forever XD.

The first Goblin Scuttle was indeed not supposed to be level 9 alongside the follow-up, as you guys guessed.

Follow up Q: Was Goblin Scuttle, then supposed to also retain the bestiary goblins' requirement of a "Goblin ally"? Because, outside of "We Be Goblins" type campaigns, I don't see it as all that common a trigger.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Fuzzypaws wrote:

I notice the ancestries are still hilariously imbalanced. Gnomes can get Darkvision with a heritage, while halflings can get low light with a heritage, and that halfling heritage doesn't give anything else on top of the low light.

This is because Gnomes already have Low Light Vision. Both Heritages upgrade the vision one category.

One category each, sure. Those categories aren't equal. Low-light barely even does anything under the current rules, while Darkvision is a 1000% or even 10000% upgrade from low light.

I'd argue it's less than that, but it's definitely better. On the other hand, Halflings get a flat Perception bonus on seeing things that Gnomes can't match and is actually amazing.

You can get an item for Darkvision. What duplicates the Halfling bonus on sight-based stuff?

So a 10th level Elf Monk with Elf Step, Winding Path, Nimble, and Tiger Style can spend 3 actions for 2 consecutive 10' steps, a Flurry of Blows, then a 10' step and a 55' stride.

I figure that seems like a fun character.

Hmm...I wonder if Incredible Movement goes towards filling the Speed requirement...If so.. Nimble Goblin Monk in Tiger Stance with Elven Adopted Ancestry who can also Scuttle for 10 ft and Elf Step allover the place.

Mark Seifter wrote:

The first Goblin Scuttle was indeed not supposed to be level 9 alongside the follow-up, as you guys guessed.

Follow up Q: Was Goblin Scuttle, then supposed to also retain the bestiary goblins' requirement of a "Goblin ally"? Because, outside of "We Be Goblins" type campaigns, I don't see it as all that common a trigger.

I read "Goblin Ally" as "An Ally of the Goblin in question."

I think that these changes are an Elf Step in the right direction! Ancestries feel pretty awesome now, and all I can think about is being a high-Con Dwarf Barbarian with an insane pool of health. Yay for making dwarves feel stout as heck.

Yeah I do really like this change. Last week I mentioned starting off with 2 ancestry feats instead of 1, but I think I like this approach better. I agree with people here that additional changes would be good but that's why we're playtesting this.

First very happy that some simulationist options like Goblin Scuttle makes in, then disappointed that it's for some reason a level 9 feat, THEN relieved by official response that the level 9 prereq is a fluke. What a wild emotional ride... :)

Fuzzypaws wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Fuzzypaws wrote:

I notice the ancestries are still hilariously imbalanced. Gnomes can get Darkvision with a heritage, while halflings can get low light with a heritage, and that halfling heritage doesn't give anything else on top of the low light.

This is because Gnomes already have Low Light Vision. Both Heritages upgrade the vision one category.

One category each, sure. Those categories aren't equal. Low-light barely even does anything under the current rules, while Darkvision is a 1000% or even 10000% upgrade from low light.

I'd argue it's less than that, but it's definitely better. On the other hand, Halflings get a flat Perception bonus on seeing things that Gnomes can't match and is actually amazing.

You can get an item for Darkvision. What duplicates the Halfling bonus on sight-based stuff?

That halfling Perception bonus only applies when actively seeking a hidden or concealed creature, not to general perception, and it is also a circumstance bonus so doesn't stack with any buffs except an item. I'd actually rather have the +5 speed.

Eyes of the Eagle is the item, btw.

Tholomyes wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

The first Goblin Scuttle was indeed not supposed to be level 9 alongside the follow-up, as you guys guessed.

Follow up Q: Was Goblin Scuttle, then supposed to also retain the bestiary goblins' requirement of a "Goblin ally"? Because, outside of "We Be Goblins" type campaigns, I don't see it as all that common a trigger.

I read "Goblin Ally" as "An Ally of the Goblin in question."

Yeah, I read it as "Ally Who Is A Goblin", I think this feat might need some additional clarification.

This stacking stuff is a real headache. Racial stuff, at least, really should be untyped (like racial resistances already are). As should all the weapon property stuff (sweep, etc - that's a separate issue though).

I like all of this. There's some nitpicking I could do, but I'm really pleased with how responsive to community feedback these updates feel.

I do think that dwarves got a little funky, since several of their old feats have effectively become mutually exclusive. This sort of exacerbates an issue I already had with the dwarf feats just not being that interesting compared to other ancestries, because now we have less to choose from. Still, Stonewalker is pretty cool. Also, part of me thinks that Unburdened should get a buff since dwarves are now the slowest race. Would just ignoring armor speed reduction be too OP?

Names aside I'm happy with most of the rest of it. The generic ancestry options do feel a little overly specific though.

Yeah, I read it as "Ally Who Is A Goblin", I think this feat might need some additional clarification.

Hmm "Goblin Ally". Ya, it does read that way. That would make it considerably less useful. To read the other way, it should just say "Ally" or "the Goblin's Ally".

To be blunt, this change to Ancestries is a half measure.

It partially addresses some of the issues that many have been expressing.

You still start out as the least Dwarfiest Dwarf that ever Dwarfed and have to work your way up to what your people used to be.

The one innate feature that Dwarves had was removed even!

If it were up to me, I'd go with Cyrad's suggestion and give players 3 heritage features at level 1.

Then I would make sure all Ancestry Feats are either improvements to an existing feature or heritage so that they are effectively dependent on a character's biology or culture instead of appearing out of nowhere.

That would solve the dissonance many of us are having with an adult character gaining aspects of their culture or culture later in life.

---

An addendum to that is that I think the design team should consider folding the Ancestry feats into general feats and give them appropriate ancestry tags.

It has never sat right with me that General Feats don't start coming in until 3rd level.

Plus, this might be a good way to balance the now seemingly overpowered Human Ancestry.

---

EDIT:
I agree the Arctic and Desert heritages should be universal.

A person does not need to be from a certain ancestry to become acclimated to an extreme environment.
Once you move to a place that is cold, you get used to it within a few months.

It would probably be a good idea to make these into General Feats anyone can take at level 1.
And also either reduce the energy resistance down to just a flat 1, or do away with it entirely.

---

Hell, it might be worth creating a house rule where these feats can be granted to characters as a bonus feat after having spent a significant amount of time in these environments and are then lost with time away from them.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Tholomyes wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

The first Goblin Scuttle was indeed not supposed to be level 9 alongside the follow-up, as you guys guessed.

Follow up Q: Was Goblin Scuttle, then supposed to also retain the bestiary goblins' requirement of a "Goblin ally"? Because, outside of "We Be Goblins" type campaigns, I don't see it as all that common a trigger.

I read "Goblin Ally" as "An Ally of the Goblin in question."

Yeah, I read it as "Ally Who Is A Goblin", I think this feat might need some additional clarification.

I'm with you, given how it works for monsters and that they could have just said "ally," I think it restricts you to another goblin to trigger it.

Also, part of me thinks that Unburdened should get a buff since dwarves are now the slowest race. Would just ignoring armor speed reduction be too OP?

I agree. I don't think ignoring speed reduction from armor and encumbrance would be overpowered for the slowest ancestry.

I think the main problem with giving out the current desert and arctic themed ancestries to all at current they give elemental resistance, and I'm really not sure a normal human should have fire or cold resistance baseline.

Also the dwarf calls out IGNORING heat off up to 140 degrees which is in no way mundane heat acclimation

Looking at the elves and goblins they have -80 degrees which is even more extreme.

I think I'd like to see a more standard endure elements amount of reduction with some other notable bonus for the other races.

Captain Morgan wrote:

Also, part of me thinks that Unburdened should get a buff since dwarves are now the slowest race. Would just ignoring armor speed reduction be too OP?

I agree. I don't think ignoring speed reduction from armor and encumbrance would be overpowered for the slowest ancestry.

I like this. Remove speed penalty AND encumbrance.

If it were up to me, I'd go with Cyrad's suggestion and give players 3 heritage features at level 1.

That seems too extreme and misses the point of Heritage. Instead, I'd rather see all Ancestries (including Dwarf) continue to offer some innate traits and see the power level of Heritages increase.

Unburdened Dwarf is my favorite to complain about so I'll use that as an example. Unburdened Dwarf should be "unburdened" not "less burdened" - no speed reduction from armor or encumbrance. That's a reasonable power upgrade for the Heritage.

I agree the Arctic and Desert heritages should be universal. It would probably be a good idea to make these into General Feats anyone can take at level 1.

And also either reduce the energy resistance down to just a flat 1, or do away with it entirely.

Agreed. They're not very interesting thematically and they're quite powerful mechanically. Of the environmental variants only Jungle does anything interesting - the others are pretty flavorless. I'd be in favor of them being separated out into generic Hertiages though that leaves Half Elves and Half Orcs out.

Also the dwarf calls out IGNORING heat off up to 140 degrees which is in no way mundane heat acclimation

That's not Desert Dwarf, that's Volcano Dwarf. Which I actually like more.

That halfling Perception bonus only applies when actively seeking a hidden or concealed creature, not to general perception, and it is also a circumstance bonus so doesn't stack with any buffs except an item. I'd actually rather have the +5 speed.

Uh...they move at the same rate. Gnomes used to be slower, but they are now the same speed. The difference is the Halfing Perception thing to the Gnome's Low Light Vision (well, and Gnomes getting +2 HP).

And it's a Circumstance bonus, while buff spells give Conditional bonuses, so it actually stacks with most buffs.

Eyes of the Eagle is the item, btw.

Those stack with the Halfling bonus, so no they don't replace it. Also, they are the same price as the Darkvision granting item (which also grants a +2 to Perception).

That seems too extreme and misses the point of Heritage. Instead, I'd rather see all Ancestries (including Dwarf) continue to offer some innate traits and see the power level of Heritages increase.

It's only extreme if you don't adjust the current Heritages.

And you are still left with the least-Dwarfiest-Dwarf issue.
An adult Dwarf should be fully a Dwarf, not still be growing into one, nor having his lineage reduced to a single effect.

Right now, the game is telling me my character's ancestors can both have been hearty survivors and be part of a magically resistant lineage.
That makes no sense.

Alternatively, go back to the way Alternate Racial Traits worked and make each Heritage a kit.

Well, at least on earth when you get way deep down in the earth it gets really hot. Like the TauTona Mine in South Africa it gets to 140 degrees (60 C) in its depths, and Pathfinder Dwarves are from more than 2 miles deep initially. Golarion is still hot in a sense towards the core since there are still volcanoes right? Like the Darklands are weirder than "ball of molten rock" but there is magma and it comes from somewhere.

I do think it's weird to cast it as a "desert" thing though.

Folks...

Just to make a thing clear. Just because we offer a revision, does not mean that it is the way it is going to be in the final. At the very least there will be more options and choices made available in each ancestry. What was presented here is more of a proof of concept. If folks like the direction, we will continue to explore its full implementation.

Hope that clears things up.

Thanks~

I rather like the concept. and most of the bits inside.
So this is pretty neat.

I need to re read this as i read it on my break, but I still feel like lv 1 needs a general feat to avoid the "I GOTTA BE HUMAN" syndrome. as the previous versions (as I haven't read this version for the general feat idea) had.
having to be human to pick up a weapon profiency, shield, or in specific cases (my loved Alchemist) Bulk or res point boosters just to get close to a starting concept is rather problematic. and one that would be solved with lv 1 having 1 ancestry feat and 1 general feat. (then human could have another one or whatever). Just having that 1 general feat opens up far far too many character concepts

Do ignore this last chunk of the situation of lv 1 and general feats altered at all.
Homework comes first then more reading

Though part of what really gets me is that Dwarves get a desert heritage while Elves get an arctic one.

Because a race (Dwarf) that is typically portrayed as short & stout (less surface area to disperse heat) and rather hairy (helps retain heat) doesn't seem like one that would adjust well to the extreme heat of a desert. Similarly, a race (Elf) that is typically portrayed as tall with smooth skin (more surface area to lose heat, no hair to help retain it), seems like they would be miserable in the Arctic rather than adapting better than everyone else.

As has probably been mentioned, these choices are based on Golarion Lore. They are the Pahmet Dwarves and Snowcaster Elves. That's jus thow it is, I guess, but at least it's not arbitrary.

I will repeat my elsewhere-stated lament about the misuse of the term "forensics." Ah well, another thing we can add to the list to blame on CSI.

Goblin Song being a feat is both hilarious and terrifying.

I read that as "Goblin Snog" for some reason and spit my coffee. Hilarious and Terrifying INDEED!

These are changes in the good direction for the most part. This update does give a feeling that we aren't done with changing ancestries, and that's fine by me.

Some nitpicks:
- I don't like it that 6 ancestries out of 8 (counting the half-elf and half-orc as one each) now have the save movement speed. This reduces differentiation significantly (unburdened dwarf reduces it further, since obviously it will only be chosen by armor users, thus bringing them to parity with speed=25 ancestries using the same armor). This is a loss of diversity. If gnomes need a boost, I recommend something else than speed.
- I agree with the objections from some posters above regarding darkvision. It used to be something special, now 5 out of 8 ancestries get access to it, so we can probably expect about half the characters in an ordinary party will be dark-dwellers. Also, while I love the simplification of the vision and light rules, it does mean that low-light vision has lost most of its value.
- Halflings needed a boost, it comes in the form of Keen Eyes, a fairly strong ability: Their odds of missing due to concealment are cut in half. However, I don't get why the bonus to Seek is a circumstance bonus? It's innate, nothing to do with the circumstances of the roll (the same reasoning applies to the sharp-nosed gnome's bonus).
- Unfortunately, it seems the halfling heritage options are all rather weaker than most of the other ancestries'.
- Also unfortunately, the changes bring the gnome and halfling closer together. They now have the same speed and both can get an improvement to perception against unseen opponents. This one is a step in the wrong direction, in my view.

I'm with you, given how it works for monsters and that they could have just said "ally," I think it restricts you to another goblin to trigger it.

I feel like options which require somebody else in the party to be a specific class, ancestry, or to have taken a specific feat should be avoided in a core rulebook.

Like its fine to have feats that only function when there are other goblins around, but that's splatbook material for a goblin-centric book. Everything in the CRB should be functional even if everybody else at the table made their character building choices by throwing darts.

I like this change, I like every change that gives more options at first level what to pick :D

(now if we only got rid of level 13th and 17th ancestry feats and gave them to character earlier)

Xenocrat wrote:

I'm with you, given how it works for monsters and that they could have just said "ally," I think it restricts you to another goblin to trigger it.

I feel like options which require somebody else in the party to be a specific class, ancestry, or to have taken a specific feat should be avoided in a core rulebook.

Like its fine to have feats that only function when there are other goblins around, but that's splatbook material for a goblin-centric book. Everything in the CRB should be functional even if everybody else at the table made their character building choices by throwing darts.

I agree. Maybe they just did a copy/paste and forgot to edit it?

This definitely feels like a step in the right direction. Now that Half-Orcs and Half-Elves can get a proper ancestry feat at 1st level, should things like Orc Sight be available at level 1 instead of level 5? It still feels weird that a Half-Orc has to "grow into" their darkvision.

"A hard skill DC, the most common in the game, represents something that an average commoner might not try but that adventurers attempt frequently."

Does no one else see anything wrong with this conception of what your average skill check should be? Seriously?

Average while not the mean of something still should be around the middle of the curve, no matter how you've decided to set the probability of it. Therefore, "hard" is not average. Not even remotely. It is above average.

Also, the chart still bad in terms of making it easy. Stop trying to make people look s!@* up or have to glance at in a GM screen. Make it easy to remember. Start it with a number most people are going to think of for a level 1 "easy" skill check. 5 works incredibly well in this instance. That way each level you go up it can be increased by an increment, which would have the effect of something that can be calculated on the fly instead of being looked up.

Same goes for the <redacted> difficulty adjustment. Right now each jump reads as follows: For levels 0 thru 4 inclusive: +5, +2, +1, +2. For levels 5 & 6: +6, +2, +2, +1. And it goes no. There isn't any set pattern.

Set it to a pattern and forget it. That's all you need to do. Stop with this difficulty as a guessing game nonsense. It benefits no one playing. It gets in the way of play.

as a Golarion lore junky these seem a bit...odd. When I heard heritages, I sort of assumed more of a subrace or something equivalent. And some of them work that way. For instance I love the flavor of most of the gnome subraces (Bleachling, Fell, etc).

But others...Unburdened dwarves as a distinct heritage? Keen-eared Elf? Huh? I mean the environmental variants make sense at least, since we have desert dwelling and snow dwelling elf ethnicities.

I mean I would rather we have heritages, and just have some of these more generic things be either general ancestry feats, or feats you can only select at first level. It's and improvement but still rubs me the wrong way.

This definitely feels like a step in the right direction. Now that Half-Orcs and Half-Elves can get a proper ancestry feat at 1st level, should things like Orc Sight be available at level 1 instead of level 5? It still feels weird that a Half-Orc has to "grow into" their darkvision.

You know, I'm not playing golden age Clark Kent. Having to "grow into" a racial ability is backwards. Nor are we playing butterflies (unless that's also going to be a new base race) so it's not like children go through a pupa/metamorphosis phase in life to excuse why some have it and some don't.

I get that they want people to play custom but species don't vary that much in actual nature. Nor is it comparable to things like color blindness which effects a tiny portion of people. This is adding too much to character creation and I don't see it paying the dividends in game that the designers want it to.

It needs to be the simpler way it was before. If you're a this, then you get all these things. The end. On to the next part of the min-maxing battle.

Also, they are the same price as the Darkvision granting item (which also grants a +2 to Perception).

The thing to remember though is that Goggles of Night require 1 resonance each activation of Darkvision and it only lasts 10 minutes. Infini-Dark Vision is a good bit better than that. That may change with changes to Resonance, but right now its much better to have Darkvision as a racial trait.

I feel like with an additional pass from the setting team we will get different names for a lot of these things, but they aren't the most critical people to have in the room when it comes to hashing out rules updates.

More important than "Unburdened Dwarf sounds silly" is whether the current "choose something genetic and something cultural, obviously your genes do not change over time" system combined with "more meaty ancestry feats for higher levels" is a good system.

So Heritage... while there are some differences... Heritage just looks like a second Ancestry feat you choose at character generation only this "feat" comes from a small selection of "Heritage" feats. This change doesn't really do it for me. Its not really a change on the macro level. Just another "feat" choice.

I feel like Human Ethnicities should also be part of the Heritage system.

I fell like each Heritage should be more robust and flavorful to justify having to choose only one.

And I feel Ancestry Feats should be rolled into General Feats.

Otherwise, I think this setup is much better than before.

And thank you for the tweak to Ranger Animal Companions.
Now do a real fix for Hunt Target! :P

Bleachlings are an option! 10/10 fantastic update!
Humans can multiclass into anything! 10/10 will maybe break the game but hilariously fantastic!
Goblins get annoying songs! 10/10!