Bard Class Preview

Monday, July 16, 2018

The bard—it's arguably the most iconic support character. For some reason, bards are often the butt of goofy jokes, even though they're powerful force multipliers who can contribute to just about every aspect of play. Bard is one of my favorite classes in Pathfinder, and it has some of the most exciting changes of any of the classes in the Pathfinder Playtest, but I'm going to start you with a big one first. Are you sitting down yet? OK, good:

Bards are full 10-level spellcasters.

Spellcasting

As before, bards are spontaneous spellcasters who make up for having not quite as many spells as the other spontaneous caster, the sorcerer, by having special bardic performances. But this time around, bards don't have a delayed spellcasting progression. Instead, they have one fewer spell in their repertoire and one fewer spell slot per day at each spell level, compared to the sorcerer. That's pretty awesome already, but here's the even cooler part: bards have collected all sorts of esoteric bardic knowledge since forever, right? With an offbeat spell list that combines mental magic, a handful of unique additions, and a little bit of healing, bards are the primary occult spellcasters, blending mental and spiritual essences. That brings bards, whose spell list has grown with far less than that of wizards, to the forefront among the other primary spellcasters. This has given us the opportunity to create a bunch of cool never-before-seen bard spells for the playtest. Also, as I mentioned in the spells blog, bards can replace the Somatic Casting and Verbal Casting components of spellcasting by playing a musical instrument, in case you want a bard who plays the violin to cast his spells! But what about their performances? How do those come into play?

Compositions

Compositions are a special type of spell that only bards gain. You might be thinking these are probably powers like other classes, right? Not so! In exchange for their slightly lower number of spells bards get, most of their compositions are cantrips, usable at will, meaning you no longer need to worry about running out of bardic performance rounds per day. Not only that, they're often cast with a single action. They start out with a composition that will likely look familiar.

Inspire Courage Cantrip

Cantrip, Composition, Emotion, Enchantment, Mental
Casting [[A]] Verbal Casting
Area 60-foot aura
Duration 1 round

You inspire your allies with words or tunes of encouragement. You and all allies in the aura gain a +1 conditional bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saves against fear.

Usually, a bard can cast only one composition per turn and have only one active at a time.

Bards have powers and Spell Points in addition to their compositions. Many bard powers allow you to manipulate and customize your performances as you desire, including increasing the duration, granting a more significant bonus (an extremely powerful benefit), or having multiple compositions active at a time. Typically, these extra benefits require a successful Performance check to activate and provide an even more powerful effect on a critical success. Take for example, lingering composition.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Lingering Composition Power 1

Enchantment, Power
Casting [[F]] Verbal Casting; Trigger You finish casting a cantrip composition with a duration of 1 round.

You attempt to add a flourish to your composition to extend its benefits. Attempt a Performance check. The DC is usually a high-difficulty DC of a level equal to the highest-level target of your composition, but the GM can assign a different DC based on the circumstances. The effect depends on the result of your check.

Success The composition lasts 2 rounds.
Critical Success The composition lasts 3 rounds.
Failure The composition lasts 1 round.

But altering your performances with special modifications like this is just one of several paths represented by a new bardic class feature…

Muses

A bard's inspiration comes from a unique place—his muse. There are three muses in the Pathfinder Playtest. The first is maestro, focused on powers that alter compositions. Next is lore, focused on Occultism, willpower, and unusual knowledge. The third is polymath, focused on being a jack of all trades with increased skills and ability to handle unexpected situations, including the ability to keep a spellbook to prepare a small number of new spells to add to your repertoire each day. As befits the individualistic nature of a performer's muse, none of the initial muse abilities are exclusive, so you can use your feats to traverse as deeply as you want into the abilities from each path; your muse merely represents a starting point on your bardic journey.

For example, if you select the maestro muse at 1st level, you gain the Lingering Composition bard feat (granting you the lingering composition power detailed above) and add soothe to your spell repertoire, but any bard can take this feat or learn this spell—selecting the maestro muse just grants them as a default.

Bard Features

As a bard, you gain spellcasting and occult spell proficiency at the same levels as the other spellcasters, new spell levels at every odd level except 19, expert proficiency in occult spells at 12th level, master proficiency at 16th level, and legendary proficiency at 19th level. You also have the most trained skills at 1st level except for rogues, just barely edging out rangers. Finally, you begin play at 1st level with two compositions, the inspire courage cantrip (which has been detailed above) and the counter performance power.

Counter Performance Power 1

Composition, Enchantment, Fortune, Mental, Power
Casting [[R]] Verbal Casting or [[R]] Somatic Casting; Trigger You or an ally within 60 feet must roll a saving throw against an auditory or visual effect.
Area 60-foot aura

You protect yourself and allies through performance. Choose an auditory performance if the trigger was auditory or a visual performance if it was visual, then roll a Performance check for the chosen performance. You and allies in the area can use the higher result of your Performance check or their saving throws.

Since you need to use only a reaction to cast counter performance, rather than needing to activate it ahead of time like in Pathfinder First Edition, creatures that rely on visual or auditory effects will have a really hard time messing with you!

Bard Feats

Bard feats tend to fall in two categories: feats associated that are loosely associated with one of the three muses, and those that grant you a new composition.

For instance, the Cantrip Expansion feat at 4th level allows you to add two cantrips from the occult spell list to your spell repertoire, which can come in handy for those bards with the lore or the polymath muses. The powerful 14th-level Allegro feat, on the other hand, grants you the following cantrip to add a spring to an ally's step.

Allegro Cantrip

Cantrip, Composition, Emotion, Enchantment, Mental
Casting [[A]] Verbal Casting
Range 30 feet; Targets one ally
Duration 1 round

You perform rapidly, speeding your ally. The ally is quick and can use the action to Strike, Stride, or Step.

There's plenty of favorites in there from among bardic masterpieces from Ultimate Magic too, like house of imaginary walls, which Cosmo used with his goblin bard to mime a box around my ranger, trapping me with a dangerous enemy while Cosmo remained safe and sound.

In a nutshell, bards now have a vast number of quality-of-life improvements, while fundamentally staying true to the way they worked before. Fellow bard fans, what do you think?

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Elleth wrote:
Any examples? You make it sound like a Nyarlathotep-tier qualia-affecting spell, which would be terrifying.

Actually, it's the non-qualia options that seemed scarier. You could make a group of people believe there's a dragon flying overhead, or you could make a group of people believe that if they don't live better lives, they'll be punished in the afterlife. People experience their new truth in different ways- if it runs counter to what they believed, it might be experienced as a sudden revelation, for instance.

Elleth wrote:
These sound quite good. I might have a hard time deciding between lore and polymath if it came to it.

As mentioned, you can mix and match to your heart's content!

Elleth wrote:
Kind of still expecting class feat substitution, not sure if I like that or not yet. Here's hoping it works out.

I'm excited. I was fond of nine tails builds in PF1, so getting a universal option for, say, making a Rogue that dabbles in the occult or can shapeshift is nice. It also sets a high standard for whatever that casting is in place of.

Elleth wrote:
So Druids might feel like the hammer of spellcasting. That's interesting and might give a pretty distinctive theme.

Arcane will also get those damaging spells, and divine will also get those healing spells- Druid's just the class that gets both sides.

Elleth wrote:
Thanks for all the info!

You're welcome!

Captain Morgan wrote:
Bravo, bravo! Thank you for your service.

Happy to help!


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QuidEst wrote:
Elleth wrote:
Any examples? You make it sound like a Nyarlathotep-tier qualia-affecting spell, which would be terrifying.
Actually, it's the non-qualia options that seemed scarier. You could make a group of people believe there's a dragon flying overhead, or you could make a group of people believe that if they don't live better lives, they'll be punished in the afterlife. People experience their new truth in different ways- if it runs counter to what they believed, it might be experienced as a sudden revelation, for instance.

This is terrifying. It's only permanent on a crit fail, right? Any idea how large the group is?

QuidEst wrote:
Elleth wrote:
Kind of still expecting class feat substitution, not sure if I like that or not yet. Here's hoping it works out.
I'm excited. I was fond of nine tails builds in PF1, so getting a universal option for, say, making a Rogue that dabbles in the occult or can shapeshift is nice. It also sets a high standard for whatever that casting is in place of.

I definitely agree from a design perspective, I'm just not sure how I'll feel about it yet. I suppose I'm cautious, but edging towards the impression I might appreciate it, even if it's only for rules reasons.

QuidEst wrote:
Elleth wrote:
So Druids might feel like the hammer of spellcasting. That's interesting and might give a pretty distinctive theme.
Arcane will also get those damaging spells, and divine will also get those healing spells- Druid's just the class that gets both sides.

Yeah, I was just finding it interesting that such a combo might make them the combat muscle of casting. Blow a dude up, undo wounds, turn into a dinosaur. It sort of feels like MtG Green to me? Solve problems through power and endurance.


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Brock Landers wrote:
Ever since 1st Ed AD&D the Druid has had some good blasting spells, better than the cleric. The balance lies with not letting it get out of control, like in 3rd Ed (Wild Shape casting feat, etc). A spellslinging bear, with a buffed bear sidekick, and summons more bears, can get unwieldy.

You mean it would be...

...

unbearable?


Brock Landers wrote:
Ever since 1st Ed AD&D the Druid has had some good blasting spells, better than the cleric. The balance lies with not letting it get out of control, like in 3rd Ed (Wild Shape casting feat, etc). A spellslinging bear, with a buffed bear sidekick, and summons more bears, can get unwieldy.

I think you mean unbearable. But thanks for laying your thoughts bear. I hope you'll continue to bear with us.

Edit: and ninja'd.


Elleth wrote:
This is terrifying. It's only permanent on a crit fail, right? Any idea how large the group is?

Yep! No idea what the duration is on a normal failure. No idea how large the group is, but you do hit multiple creatures with it.

Elleth wrote:
I definitely agree from a design perspective, I'm just not sure how I'll feel about it yet. I suppose I'm cautious, but edging towards the impression I might appreciate it, even if it's only for rules reasons.

At least for me, it'll take some pressure off of dipping. I can go full Rogue and pick up whatever couple spells are critical for the concept, rather than figuring out how much of a Rogue dip I need on my caster.

QuidEst wrote:
Yeah, I was just finding it interesting that such a combo might make them the combat muscle of casting. Blow a dude up, undo wounds, turn into a dinosaur. It sort of feels like MtG Green to me? Solve problems through power and endurance.

Yeah- really, full Naya (green, white, red)- you're a big stompy with healing and blasting. (Assuming we've still got some take on Natural Spell.)


Mark Seifter wrote:
Charon Onozuka wrote:
Darkorin wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Still doesn't help you though, I think. Sorry, which do you recommend we make suck?
Paladin, since it's the only class left with an alignment requirement... (That's half a joke by the way, I don't want the paladin to suck, but I wish it was more open xD)
Also Alchemist, because I'm still miffed they took the Witch's spot in Core ;P
I saw someone say that in another thread, but they've misquoted me (or another staffer). Witch was not even close to being the most popular new class; oracle was the other class that was close-ish to the alchemist, but it wasn't as popular, plus the alchemist benefits much more from being incorporated in the system from the get-go rather than as an add-on than oracle does.

Plus the Sorcerer basically absord the divine sorcerer concept.

Liberty's Edge

Gyor wrote:
Plus the Sorcerer basically absord the divine sorcerer concept.

As Bard (a Cha-based spontaneous Occult Caster) indicates, there's still room for an Oracle as Cha-based spontaneous Divine caster to exist, it'd just need to be mechanically distinct from Sorcerer, which seems possible.


QuidEst wrote:

Some more info! Mostly Bard stuff. From the Know Direction podcast. I only got some of the information.

Bard:
-Chill Touch and Telekinetic Projectile are most of or all of Bard's damaging cantrips (might have missed one). Daze makes enemies flat-footed, and can slow them down (?) on a crit-fail.
-Bard's special composition cantrips are much stronger than regular cantrips.
- Maestro-focused Bards improve performances. You can eventually improve not just the duration, but also things like the bonus. Improving the bonus is a difficult check, but a crit success can push Inspire Courage to +3

I'm a bit concerned about how cantrips may be all over the place in power level, utility, and scaling or not.


MysticYeti wrote:
It may be a result of these blogs focusing on the highlights, like much needed improvements to active resource management, or my recollection but I feel there have been little to know passive class and subclass features. I wouldn't blame Paizo one bit for parring down the frequency of passive features compared to Pathfinder 1 but, personally, I like having some degree of always-on features that don't require any activation management or resource management. I'd be curious to hear Paizo talk in more detail about this if they would.

Passive bonuses would widen the math curve between the haves and have nots, and narrowing that gap is one of the goals of PF2. If you focus on something you can get noticeably better than, but not outrageously so and you have to invest resources like ability scores, feats, and WBL into it, not just get it (beyond the proficiency -2 through +3 gap) as a result of your class choice.


First World Bard wrote:
Elleth wrote:
These sound quite good. I might have a hard time deciding between lore and polymath if it came to it.
Thankfully, you only need to decide which one you want first. If you want both, you should be able to spend class feats to pick up the second one fairly soon.

A human might be able to pick up a second muse ability at 1st level, assuming they didn't prerequisite lock that behind a later level.


Mark Seifter wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

*swoons*


Mark Seifter Super Fan wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
*swoons*

Woah, woah... Calm down...


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Gyor wrote:
Plus the Sorcerer basically absord the divine sorcerer concept.
As Bard (a Cha-based spontaneous Occult Caster) indicates, there's still room for an Oracle as Cha-based spontaneous Divine caster to exist, it'd just need to be mechanically distinct from Sorcerer, which seems possible.

I'm wondering if we get a dedicated *arcane* spontaneous caster eventually; it seems like this might be what the Arcanist is if we're going to have one. It seems like if you can have four spontaneous casting classes tied to one of the four lists that are mechanically and thematically as distinct from the sorcerer as the bard is, you should absolutely do it.

I personally like the Witch as a prepared caster who can pick any one of the four lists depending on who their patron is.

Liberty's Edge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I'm wondering if we get a dedicated *arcane* spontaneous caster eventually; it seems like this might be what the Arcanist is if we're going to have one. It seems like if you can have four spontaneous casting classes tied to one of the four lists that are mechanically and thematically as distinct from the sorcerer as the bard is, you should absolutely do it.

This seems very likely eventually, yeah, though I'm not sure it'll be Arcanist (someone suggested Magus, which'd probably be Int-based, but could easily be spontaneous). I'd expect maybe Shaman as a Primal spontaneous caster (though that'd likely be Wisdom-based) and then maybe Witch as a prepared Occult Caster.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
I personally like the Witch as a prepared caster who can pick any one of the four lists depending on who their patron is.

This is also very possible. In this case I guess Psychic or Occultist probably fills the role of Occult Prepared Caster (though both are spontaneous in PF1).


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Brock Landers wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
This is also very possible. In this case I guess Psychic or Occultist probably fills the role of Occult Prepared Caster.
Yeah, and it sounds like the Occultist class will be the master of Resonance, and be able to use their Int instead of Cha for it.

My guess is both stats, a la Silksworn.


QuidEst wrote:
Brock Landers wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
This is also very possible. In this case I guess Psychic or Occultist probably fills the role of Occult Prepared Caster.
Yeah, and it sounds like the Occultist class will be the master of Resonance, and be able to use their Int instead of Cha for it.
My guess is both stats, a la Silksworn.

Indeed, the Occultist is supposed to be "the best class at resonance" so they should have more than alchemists, whose Int-based resonance is there less for flavor and more to make the class work.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I personally like the Witch as a prepared caster who can pick any one of the four lists depending on who their patron is.
This is also very possible. In this case I guess Psychic or Occultist probably fills the role of Occult Prepared Caster (though both are spontaneous in PF1).

It just seems like "the witch's flavor of magic depends on who they learn it from makes too much sense to not do. Like if your Patron is the Green Mother, you're absolutely learning primal magic; if your Patron is a High ranking psychopomp in Pharasma's service, you're learning divine magic. If your patron is the soul of Black Heron of the 10 Magic Warriors, you're learning arcane magic.


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Brock Landers wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Brock Landers wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
This is also very possible. In this case I guess Psychic or Occultist probably fills the role of Occult Prepared Caster.
Yeah, and it sounds like the Occultist class will be the master of Resonance, and be able to use their Int instead of Cha for it.
My guess is both stats, a la Silksworn.
I am not familiar with Silksworn, what is that?

The Occultist archetype that makes you the castiest 6/9 caster in the game and gives you two stats for mental focus.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Brock Landers wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Brock Landers wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Brock Landers wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
This is also very possible. In this case I guess Psychic or Occultist probably fills the role of Occult Prepared Caster.
Yeah, and it sounds like the Occultist class will be the master of Resonance, and be able to use their Int instead of Cha for it.
My guess is both stats, a la Silksworn.
I am not familiar with Silksworn, what is that?
The Occultist archetype that makes you the castiest 6/9 caster in the game and gives you two stats for mental focus.
Ah, so you can stack Int and Cha, or something else?

Silksworn is Int and Cha, yeah.

Liberty's Edge

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Brock Landers wrote:
Juicy, I converted the Occultist to 5th Ed, I will check that out (possible subclass).

It basically gives up martial weapons and all armor and becomes Arcane in order to have better spellcasting and more Mental Focus. Plus gives up the circles stuff for social bonuses.

All while gaining your magic from dressing fabulously.


I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't want this many casters. Seems like overkill to me. But I'm not going to be a downer and, like, complain if they do it.

Liberty's Edge

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Mbertorch wrote:
I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't want this many casters. Seems like overkill to me. But I'm not going to be a downer and, like, complain if they do it.

I prefer for about half the classes in the game to be casters, maybe less. That matches the 7/5 split in the corebook pretty well.

But we're actually only talking about another 5-7 casting Classes added eventually to do everything we're talking about. If an equal number of non-caster Classes are added, which is very possible, the balance remains the same.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Here's another in the Aladdin-song-based playtest songs to go with the pair a few pages back.

Golarion Knights:
Oh, I game in a land, in a faraway place
Where the mammoths and shoggoths roam
Seelah’s got great defense
And Amiri’s intense
She’s barbaric, but hey, it's home
When the law is a sin and you just couldn't win
And the spin on the dice is right
Come on down, have a ball
Play a pally and fall
You’re another Golarion knight!
Golarion knights, marked by Golarion fey
More often than not
Found in woods as a tot
In a head-scratching way
Golarion knights, they’re Golarion infused
Having a default
Is not an assault
On all our homebrews


Mark Seifter wrote:

Here's another in the Aladdin-song-based playtest songs to go with the pair a few pages back.

** spoiler omitted **

*Wakes up, sees Mark singing, and swoons again*


Cole Deschain wrote:

*lights a candle to the idea of somehow getting a spell-free bard*

Kind of amused that they're Occult now, but when I DO like having Bards sling spells, it's always felt a bit odd to have them acting like Wizard-lite types (or mage-lite in my long-gone 2E days...)

Maybe people will be able to do "spell-less bards" through feat-based multiclassing? I'd really dig building something like a rogue or barbarian (*cough*skald*cough*) and being able to get the inspire courage cantrip (and be otherwise spell-free).

That said, I also like the design space of a completely mundane/martial leadery class (as I have discussed elsewhere).


Brock Landers wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
That said, I also like the design space of a completely mundane/martial leadery class (as I have discussed elsewhere).
The best implementation of that is the Noble class for d20 Star Wars Saga Edition, I find it vastly superior to the Marshal and Warlord of 3rd and 4th Ed, respectively.

I actually bring that up in my "Things We Never Got in 1E" thread. I really liked building Noble/Crimelord and really getting down to handing out actions/commanding the battle field. The envoy does that kind of stuff a little bit in Starfinder, but I think it takes too long to come online and I believe it is limited by your resolve which I think is way too harsh for how much of your build needs to go into making it work. I understand wanting to limit that kind of manipulation of the action economy in one way or another, though.


Brock Landers wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Brock Landers wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
That said, I also like the design space of a completely mundane/martial leadery class (as I have discussed elsewhere).
The best implementation of that is the Noble class for d20 Star Wars Saga Edition, I find it vastly superior to the Marshal and Warlord of 3rd and 4th Ed, respectively.
I actually bring that up in my "Things We Never Got in 1E" thread. I really liked building Noble/Crimelord and really getting down to handing out actions/commanding the battle field. The envoy does that kind of stuff a little bit in Starfinder, but I think it takes too long to come online and I believe it is limited by your resolve which I think is way too harsh for how much of your build needs to go into making it work. I understand wanting to limit that kind of manipulation of the action economy in one way or another, though.
Ah, yeah, I do not really like the Resolve mechanic, or the splitting of hit points, like Vitality/Wounds from the original d20 Star Wars edition.

I like resolve and the two hitpoint types quite bit and I have a lot to say about exact mechanics of its implementation that I won't go in to. That said, I think that the envoys should get additional resolve or a separate resource pool for their powers. As it stands, they end up having less resolve on average compared to other classes since they essentially need all the attributes of a fighter PLUS their key stat of charisma.


Given that Arcane=Material/Mental, Divine=Spiritual/Vital, Primal=Material/Vital, and Occult=Mental/Spiritual, I actually had the idea for a new power source for the Witch Class, Pact Magic, which would be Material/Spiritual. That just leaves Mental/Vital as a power source, perhaps Pyshic or Shadow or Biofeed Back.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Friendly Rogue wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Yep, that's definitely an issue when it comes two different flavours of classes are forced to use the same list. Tbh, I'd prefer if Occult List but cast as an Arcane caster just to keep the flavour consistent.
...What? They haven't even implied that Bards wouldn't be using Verbal/Somatic components for their spells - they're going to be casting just like every other spellcaster in the Playtest, so in essence it pretty much is just them casting off of the Occult list as an "arcane" caster, in the sense that they have Verbal and Somatic components. With how the way spellcasting classes seem to work in P2e, I actually wouldn't be surprised if the use of Thought and Emotion components become exclusive to just a few classes, like the Psychic and Mesmerist, when they eventually bring the Occult Adventures classes into P2e.
There is a difference between the spells and essences intrinsic to the occult tradition and the trappings of casting psychic magic. It's possible to make a bard a caster who follows the occult tradition and doesn't use psychic magic.

So Occult and Psychic are separate things? Can you have Psychics that use say the Arcane, Primal, or Divine Spell lists?


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Gyor wrote:
So Occult and Psychic are separate things? Can you have Psychics that use say the Arcane, Primal, or Divine Spell lists?

I think on the know direction podcast mark made the distinction that psychic was the casting style where you would replace Verbal and Somatic components with Thought and Emotion components. Similar to how a bard can replace Verbal and Somatic components with instrument components.


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Gyor wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Friendly Rogue wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Yep, that's definitely an issue when it comes two different flavours of classes are forced to use the same list. Tbh, I'd prefer if Occult List but cast as an Arcane caster just to keep the flavour consistent.
...What? They haven't even implied that Bards wouldn't be using Verbal/Somatic components for their spells - they're going to be casting just like every other spellcaster in the Playtest, so in essence it pretty much is just them casting off of the Occult list as an "arcane" caster, in the sense that they have Verbal and Somatic components. With how the way spellcasting classes seem to work in P2e, I actually wouldn't be surprised if the use of Thought and Emotion components become exclusive to just a few classes, like the Psychic and Mesmerist, when they eventually bring the Occult Adventures classes into P2e.
There is a difference between the spells and essences intrinsic to the occult tradition and the trappings of casting psychic magic. It's possible to make a bard a caster who follows the occult tradition and doesn't use psychic magic.
So Occult and Psychic are separate things? Can you have Psychics that use say the Arcane, Primal, or Divine Spell lists?

Yup; Occult and Psychic are two different things in P2e. I actually predicted in this thread that Psychic spellcasters will be a specific category of casting gained by specific classes, if not flat out going back to a non-vancian style of casting. While I predict that the Psychic and Mesmerist will stick with the Occult spell list, I also predicted that, if the Kineticist gains spellcasting, it will be from the Primal spell list.


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Gyor wrote:
So Occult and Psychic are separate things? Can you have Psychics that use say the Arcane, Primal, or Divine Spell lists?

I would guess that PF2 will maintain the distinction that Psychic magic uses Thought and Emotion components in lieu of Somatic and Verbal components.

I mean, your magic isn't really "psychic" if you have to chant magic words and wave your hands around; you should be able to do *psychic* magic while gagged with your hands tied behind your back.


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I think Kineticists will be Spell-Point based martials with a glut of Powers, and 'Wild Talents' (the previously Burn-free ones) will be Class-Locked Cantrips with the 'Wild Talent' tag.


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Cantriped wrote:
I think Kineticists will be Spell-Point based martials with a glut of Powers, and 'Wild Talents' (the previously Burn-free ones) will be Class-Locked Cantrips with the 'Wild Talent' tag.

I feel that we do a disservice to the Kineticist in PF2 if we don't make it a "you can do this stuff all day if you don't push yourself" class. A kineticist should be limited by "you can only push yourself so far" not by slots or spell-points, since that's what the class is.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Cantriped wrote:
I think Kineticists will be Spell-Point based martials with a glut of Powers, and 'Wild Talents' (the previously Burn-free ones) will be Class-Locked Cantrips with the 'Wild Talent' tag.
I feel that we do a disservice to the Kineticist in PF2 if we don't make it a "you can do this stuff all day if you don't push yourself" class. A kineticist should be limited by "you can only push yourself so far" not by slots or spell-points, since that's what the class is.

I'd say that you could maybe model that in a spell-point style system. You would just require the kineticist to take con damage or perhaps just increasing increments of nonhealable damage in exchange for restoring spell points.

Silver Crusade

Bardarok wrote:
Gyor wrote:
So Occult and Psychic are separate things? Can you have Psychics that use say the Arcane, Primal, or Divine Spell lists?
I think on the know direction podcast mark made the distinction that psychic was the casting style where you would replace Verbal and Somatic components with Thought and Emotion components. Similar to how a bard can replace Verbal and Somatic components with instrument components.

Link? I can't find this.


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I expect it will be done a 'disservice' then... Burn just wasn't an appropriate mechanic for Pathfinder, and it would be even harder to Implement in PF2.

The Kineticist plays too much like a poorly-built energy blaster from the Hero System/Champions. It looks good in cartoons and comics... but risking knocking yourself out in exchange for a few extra dice of damage is just a stupid tactic... Plus it generally isn't fun to be the character who falls over helpless in combat and misses all the social encounters and exploration, nor is it fun to be the party who has to carry their sad sack (and their stuff) around; all because they took a stray arrow while gathering power.


Joe M. wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
Gyor wrote:
So Occult and Psychic are separate things? Can you have Psychics that use say the Arcane, Primal, or Divine Spell lists?
I think on the know direction podcast mark made the distinction that psychic was the casting style where you would replace Verbal and Somatic components with Thought and Emotion components. Similar to how a bard can replace Verbal and Somatic components with instrument components.
Link? I can't find this.

They recorded it yesterday live on Twitch and I think you can still see it there the actual episode is Know Direction episode 182 and it should be released to day at some point though they were having some AV issues.

Liberty's Edge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Cantriped wrote:
I think Kineticists will be Spell-Point based martials with a glut of Powers, and 'Wild Talents' (the previously Burn-free ones) will be Class-Locked Cantrips with the 'Wild Talent' tag.
I feel that we do a disservice to the Kineticist in PF2 if we don't make it a "you can do this stuff all day if you don't push yourself" class. A kineticist should be limited by "you can only push yourself so far" not by slots or spell-points, since that's what the class is.

Cantrips that can be upgraded by taking Burn (or spending Con-based Spell Points) seem an excellent way to do this, and very consistent with PF2's system.


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The Sideromancer wrote:
Brock Landers wrote:
Ever since 1st Ed AD&D the Druid has had some good blasting spells, better than the cleric. The balance lies with not letting it get out of control, like in 3rd Ed (Wild Shape casting feat, etc). A spellslinging bear, with a buffed bear sidekick, and summons more bears, can get unwieldy.

I think you mean unbearable. But thanks for laying your thoughts bear. I hope you'll continue to bear with us.

Edit: and ninja'd.

Oh those puns where grizzly. the worst part is you were making them without me.

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