Sorcerer Class Preview

If you choose Heal Heightened +2 (that is horrible to read but is the official name) as one of your Heightened spells for the day... does it also mean you can cast Heal and Heal Heightened +1? With that wording, Heal is NOT technically a heightened version of Heal Heightened +2, it's the base version of the spell, so you will not be able to cast it?

No, the "official" name is heal (level 3). The +1 in the spell description just tells you how to handle a spell heightened to a higher level.

A sorcerer knows the heal spell, and has heal (level 3) in her repertoire. If she chooses heal as her heightened spell, she can cast any heightened version of heal from any of her spell slots.

Do the 1/Day Evolution feats should also make the associated Spell a free Spontaneous Heightening. Obviously when you cast it using that 1 extra spell slot it does, but I mean the other times you cast it using your normal spells?

I would say, not unless you designated it as such in the morning.

I know what the blog post mean, but my point is that it's counter intuitive, does not respect the rest of the system, and it's just messy as hell. If such a system was in place, I would remove the Heightened (+X) in the spell description and just call the spell Heal X, with an entry for the effect at each level.

Exemple:

Heal X Spell X
insert regular description
Heal 1 (Spell 1): the healing effect of the spell is 1d8
Heal 2 (Spell 2): the healing effect of the spell is 3d8 for the...

That's SUPER nasty and awful, fireball (4th) is good enough for fireball at 4th level, and NO ONE wants them to waste that much space on every. single. scalable. spell.

If you have heal (3rd) known, I don't think there's an issue with saying you cannot undercast/deheighten the spell.

Now... about that Spontaneous Heightening ability...

Blog wrote:

The spontaneous heightening feature lets you choose two spells at the start of each day that you can cast as their heightened versions using any of your spell slots.

Don't parse the wording too closely, the writer wasn't quoting the class feature. They may have just been assuming you"d always heighten the base version of the spell.

Darkorin wrote:

If you choose Heal Heightened +2 (that is horrible to read but is the official name) as one of your Heightened spells for the day... does it also mean you can cast Heal and Heal Heightened +1? With that wording, Heal is NOT technically a heightened version of Heal Heightened +2, it's the base version of the spell, so you will not be able to cast it?

No, the "official" name is heal (level 3). The +1 in the spell description just tells you how to handle a spell heightened to a higher level.

A sorcerer knows the heal spell, and has heal (level 3) in her repertoire. If she chooses heal as her heightened spell, she can cast any heightened version of heal from her spell slots.

Name (level X) is still confusing.

Let's look at a spell you learn a at the 3rd spellcasting level, and have a Heightened available for each level.

Spell (Level 5) would thus make a reference to the heightened +2 ability, which requires you to do a level of the spell you are casting (5) - base level of the spell (3), to get the heightened entry you're supposed to read (5-3=2, please read Heightened +2).

Thus Spell (Heightened +2) is the way it should be referenced, since it references directly what you are supposed to read unlike Spell (Level 5) which requires some conversion to reference the correct entry.

Yes for most of us that's not a huge deal, but it shows that this reference system/naming is bad.

Darkorin wrote:

Now... about that Spontaneous Heightening ability...

Blog wrote:

The spontaneous heightening feature lets you choose two spells at the start of each day that you can cast as their heightened versions using any of your spell slots.

Don't parse the wording too closely, the writer wasn't quoting the class feature. They may have just been assuming you"d always heighten the base version of the spell.

I know, what I'm saying is that they should be very careful on the wording because the wording in the blog is quite bad and raises more question.

We all know rules rigid people and I'm sure that if the wording is that you can Heighten the spell, some of them will say that you can increase it's power but not decrease it with spontaneous heightening, and they should make it clear.

Can you undercast when Spontaneous Heightening a Heightened version of a spell?

Darkorin wrote:

Now... about that Spontaneous Heightening ability...

Blog wrote:

The spontaneous heightening feature lets you choose two spells at the start of each day that you can cast as their heightened versions using any of your spell slots.

Don't parse the wording too closely, the writer wasn't quoting the class feature. They may have just been assuming you"d always heighten the base version of the spell.

Well what if I don't know the base version of the spell? As someone brought up (don't remember who) Fly might work like in starfinder level 1 being featherfall 2 being levatate and 3 being fly. If that's the case do I get get to cast lower versions if I only know fly? Cause with the wording as is I don't but the difference in fly and featherfall might make me want to use both so i have to know fly 1 (featherfall) in that case and don't have the option to know a different level 1 spell.

Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Do the 1/Day Evolution feats should also make the associated Spell a free Spontaneous Heightening. Obviously when you cast it using that 1 extra spell slot it does, but I mean the other times you cast it using your normal spells?

I would say, not unless you designated it as such in the morning.

Let's say you are attacking a series of ice caverns; obviously fire spells are a good choice but you don't have any. What you do is you beg, borrow or steal a scroll of fireball, use you evolution to get it 1/day, then use spont. Heighten to get it in all your 3rd level+ spells as a spell known for the day. Now you can cast it at whatever level you feel appropriate. Fighting a swarm of ice mephits? Use a fireball iii or two. Fighting a white dragon? Cast it at your highest level, etc.

In another thread Mr. Seifter floated the possibility of a feat for "you get an extra spontaneous heighten spell, but it's always the same spell- you can't change it, short of retraining" which would be a good candidate for a feat for all those divine sorcerers looking to heal a lot.

KingOfAnything wrote:

Darkorin wrote:

If you choose Heal Heightened +2 (that is horrible to read but is the official name) as one of your Heightened spells for the day... does it also mean you can cast Heal and Heal Heightened +1? With that wording, Heal is NOT technically a heightened version of Heal Heightened +2, it's the base version of the spell, so you will not be able to cast it?

No, the "official" name is heal (level 3). The +1 in the spell description just tells you how to handle a spell heightened to a higher level.

A sorcerer knows the heal spell, and has heal (level 3) in her repertoire. If she chooses heal as her heightened spell, she can cast any heightened version of heal from her spell slots.

Name (level X) is still confusing.

Let's look at a spell you learn a at the 3rd spellcasting level, and have a Heightened available for each level.

Spell (Level 5) would thus make a reference to the heightened +2 ability, which requires you to do a level of the spell you are casting (5) - base level of the spell (3), to get the heightened entry you're supposed to read (5-3=2, please read Heightened +2).

Thus Spell (Heightened +2) is the way it should be referenced, since it references directly what you are supposed to read unlike Spell (Level 5) which requires some conversion to reference the correct entry.

Yes for most of us that's not a huge deal, but it shows that this reference system/naming is bad.

If the spell can be heightened to every level, you would apply the Heightened +1 entry twice. There is no Heightened +2 entry. If you reference the spell as Spell +2, you still have to do math.

If that spell only has a 3rd and 5th level, the entry is Heightened (5th). So, referencing the spell as Spell (level 5) requires no math.

We all know rules rigid people and I'm sure that if the wording is that you can Heighten the spell, some of them will say that you can increase it's power but not decrease it with spontaneous heightening, and they should make it clear.

Good thing these are blogs and not rules, then.

Cantriped wrote:

Darkorin wrote:

Now... about that Spontaneous Heightening ability...

Blog wrote:

The spontaneous heightening feature lets you choose two spells at the start of each day that you can cast as their heightened versions using any of your spell slots.

Don't parse the wording too closely, the writer wasn't quoting the class feature. They may have just been assuming you"d always heighten the base version of the spell.

I know, what I'm saying is that they should be very careful on the wording because the wording in the blog is quite bad and raises more question.

We all know rules rigid people and I'm sure that if the wording is that you can Heighten the spell, some of them will say that you can increase it's power but not decrease it with spontaneous heightening, and they should make it clear.

Can you undercast when Spontaneous Heightening a Heightened version of a spell?

Even that isn't 100% clear i think and i fear it's going to stay confusing as long as learning different versions of a spell is a thing.

It is pretty clear that as a Sorcerer, we can add whichever permutation of the spell we desire to our repertoire, but can only cast that specific permutation unless we select it with Spontaneous Heightening that day.

So you can learn "Chain Lightning" (as Lightning Bolt VI), and select it with spontaneous heightening when you need the extra ~8 Lightning Bolt IIIs doing so would let you cast. Same goes with "Delayed Blast Fireball" (Fireball VII) and "Fireball" (Fireball III) (except you get ~12 castings of Fireball III)... all of this is of course assuming you don't need those other slots for something else.

This is actually a weird one, because I don't think spontaneous heightening works backwards. It is, after all, Heightening, not Undercasting or whatever.

Especially since the blog says:

" That means that if you want your angelic sorcerer to be able to cast 1st-level heal, 2nd-level heal, and 3rd-level heal, you can choose your 1st-level heal spell with spontaneous heightening rather than needing to learn the spell in your spell repertoire at all three spell levels."

I think Spontaneous Heightening only allows you to go up, not down. If you get Fireball VII, then Spontaneous Heightening lets you get Fireball VIII and IX. If you get Lightning Bolt VI, then you also get VII, VIII, IX.

I mean, at least that's how I read it, since you can't Heighten downwards, only up.

Darkorin wrote:

We all know rules rigid people and I'm sure that if the wording is that you can Heighten the spell, some of them will say that you can increase it's power but not decrease it with spontaneous heightening, and they should make it clear.

Good thing these are blogs and not rules, then.

Yep, and my point is to the designers: "Please watch out, currently those things can be interpreted very badly and are in dire need of a clean version".

A few people were confused about a lot of things, and this makes me worried about the final product.

Darkorin wrote:

We all know rules rigid people and I'm sure that if the wording is that you can Heighten the spell, some of them will say that you can increase it's power but not decrease it with spontaneous heightening, and they should make it clear.

Good thing these are blogs and not rules, then.

Well it's the closesed thing we have to the rules. Also I think the printed versions are well... printed so they won't change if that's the case.

Cantriped wrote:

It is pretty clear that as a Sorcerer, we can add whichever permutation of the spell we desire to our repertoire, but can only cast that specific permutation unless we select it with Spontaneous Heightening that day.

So you can learn "Chain Lightning" (as Lightning Bolt VI), and select it with spontaneous heightening when you need the extra ~8 Lightning Bolt IIIs doing so would let you cast. Same goes with "Delayed Blast Fireball" (Fireball VII) and "Fireball" (Fireball III) (except you get ~12 castings of Fireball III)... all of this is of course assuming you don't need those other slots for something else.

This is actually a weird one, because I don't think spontaneous heightening works backwards. It is, after all, Heightening, not Undercasting or whatever.

Especially since the blog says:

" That means that if you want your angelic sorcerer to be able to cast 1st-level heal, 2nd-level heal, and 3rd-level heal, you can choose your 1st-level heal spell with spontaneous heightening rather than needing to learn the spell in your spell repertoire at all three spell levels."

I think Spontaneous Heightening only allows you to go up, not down. If you get Fireball VII, then Spontaneous Heightening lets you get Fireball VIII and IX. If you get Lightning Bolt VI, then you also get VII, VIII, IX.

I mean, at least that's how I read it, since you can't Heighten downwards, only up.

If that's the case, it means that it pushes the sorcerer to always keep the base version of the spell and never to unlearn it... which is a big limitation since a lot of low level spells will fight for attention, and higher level spells will be a lot easier to choose, since you should almost never want to learn Heightened versions.

TheFinish wrote:

Cantriped wrote:

It is pretty clear that as a Sorcerer, we can add whichever permutation of the spell we desire to our repertoire, but can only cast that specific permutation unless we select it with Spontaneous Heightening that day.

So you can learn "Chain Lightning" (as Lightning Bolt VI), and select it with spontaneous heightening when you need the extra ~8 Lightning Bolt IIIs doing so would let you cast. Same goes with "Delayed Blast Fireball" (Fireball VII) and "Fireball" (Fireball III) (except you get ~12 castings of Fireball III)... all of this is of course assuming you don't need those other slots for something else.

This is actually a weird one, because I don't think spontaneous heightening works backwards. It is, after all, Heightening, not Undercasting or whatever.

Especially since the blog says:

" That means that if you want your angelic sorcerer to be able to cast 1st-level heal, 2nd-level heal, and 3rd-level heal, you can choose your 1st-level heal spell with spontaneous heightening rather than needing to learn the spell in your spell repertoire at all three spell levels."

I think Spontaneous Heightening only allows you to go up, not down. If you get Fireball VII, then Spontaneous Heightening lets you get Fireball VIII and IX. If you get Lightning Bolt VI, then you also get VII, VIII, IX.

I mean, at least that's how I read it, since you can't Heighten downwards, only up.

If that's the case, it means that it pushes the sorcerer to always keep the base version of the spell and never to unlearn it... which is a big limitation since a lot of low level spells will fight for attention, and higher level spells will be a lot easier to choose, since you should almost never want to learn Heightened versions.

I agree, and there's always a good chance I'm wrong, but the fact that it's called Spontaneous Heightening and the specific wording of the blog leads me to think in that direction.

After all, Heightening only works up. Which isn't a problem with say, the Wizard, or the Cleric, because all they get is the base spell. But a Sorcerer can learn stuff in the middle of the chain, which just creates a lot of confusion.

Cantriped wrote:

It is pretty clear that as a Sorcerer, we can add whichever permutation of the spell we desire to our repertoire, but can only cast that specific permutation unless we select it with Spontaneous Heightening that day.

So you can learn "Chain Lightning" (as Lightning Bolt VI), and select it with spontaneous heightening when you need the extra ~8 Lightning Bolt IIIs doing so would let you cast. Same goes with "Delayed Blast Fireball" (Fireball VII) and "Fireball" (Fireball III) (except you get ~12 castings of Fireball III)... all of this is of course assuming you don't need those other slots for something else.

This is actually a weird one, because I don't think spontaneous heightening works backwards. It is, after all, Heightening, not Undercasting or whatever.

Especially since the blog says:

" That means that if you want your angelic sorcerer to be able to cast 1st-level heal, 2nd-level heal, and 3rd-level heal, you can choose your 1st-level heal spell with spontaneous heightening rather than needing to learn the spell in your spell repertoire at all three spell levels."

I think Spontaneous Heightening only allows you to go up, not down. If you get Fireball VII, then Spontaneous Heightening lets you get Fireball VIII and IX. If you get Lightning Bolt VI, then you also get VII, VIII, IX.

I mean, at least that's how I read it, since you can't Heighten downwards, only up.

Actually the blog uses the word "can…". If that was the only choice, it should have read "must choose your 1st level heal..."

The reason heal 1 is chosen is probably because it is the most logical; why choose to have known heal 2 and spont. heighten it when you can use a 1st level spell known and save your 2nd level slot?

Darkorin wrote:

TheFinish wrote:

Cantriped wrote:

It is pretty clear that as a Sorcerer, we can add whichever permutation of the spell we desire to our repertoire, but can only cast that specific permutation unless we select it with Spontaneous Heightening that day.

So you can learn "Chain Lightning" (as Lightning Bolt VI), and select it with spontaneous heightening when you need the extra ~8 Lightning Bolt IIIs doing so would let you cast. Same goes with "Delayed Blast Fireball" (Fireball VII) and "Fireball" (Fireball III) (except you get ~12 castings of Fireball III)... all of this is of course assuming you don't need those other slots for something else.

This is actually a weird one, because I don't think spontaneous heightening works backwards. It is, after all, Heightening, not Undercasting or whatever.

Especially since the blog says:

" That means that if you want your angelic sorcerer to be able to cast 1st-level heal, 2nd-level heal, and 3rd-level heal, you can choose your 1st-level heal spell with spontaneous heightening rather than needing to learn the spell in your spell repertoire at all three spell levels."

I think Spontaneous Heightening only allows you to go up, not down. If you get Fireball VII, then Spontaneous Heightening lets you get Fireball VIII and IX. If you get Lightning Bolt VI, then you also get VII, VIII, IX.

I mean, at least that's how I read it, since you can't Heighten downwards, only up.

If that's the case, it means that it pushes the sorcerer to always keep the base version of the spell and never to unlearn it... which is a big limitation since a lot of low level spells will fight for attention, and higher level spells will be a lot easier to choose, since you should almost never want to learn Heightened versions.

I agree, and there's always a good chance I'm wrong, but the fact that it's called Spontaneous Heightening and the specific wording of the blog leads me to think in that direction....

There's the alternative parsing as a shortened version of "Spontaneous [selection of the] Heightening [level of]" at present. So I don't think we can say much. Like. The way I'm reading this is more of "heightening" being a condition the spell is exposed to, rather than necessarily an increase. Still, we won't find out yet.

Actually the blog uses the word "can…". If that was the only choice, it should have read "must choose your 1st level heal..."

The reason heal 1 is chosen is probably because it is the most logical; why choose to have known heal 2 and spont. heighten it when you can use a 1st level spell known and save your 2nd level slot?

That's beside the point. It is possible that all of your 1st level spell known are occupied by other spell, and you took Heal 3 because it was the earliest you had a free spot.

What happens then? Yes you CAN choose heal 3 as your spontaneous heightening spell, but it's currently really confusing what that will do.

I'm fairly certain the actual rules will help us figure it out.

There is only so much we can read in to the simple example.

Yeah, I feel like of all the criticisms you can level at a game we don't actually have,"it is confusing" is one of the most eyebrow raising. Yeah, games tend to be confusing when you don't know the rules yet.

Yeah, I feel like of all the criticisms you can level at a game we don't actually have,"it is confusing" is one of the most eyebrow raising. Yeah, games tend to be confusing when you don't know the rules yet.

The pregen character sheet has really made some things fall into place, for me, not confusing (numbers, etc), at all.

Captain Morgan wrote:

Yeah, I feel like of all the criticisms you can level at a game we don't actually have,"it is confusing" is one of the most eyebrow raising. Yeah, games tend to be confusing when you don't know the rules yet.

The pregen character sheet has really made some things fall into place, for me, not confusing (numbers, etc), at all.

For me I can't really put much stock in the pregens: we don't see what it takes to get to those sheets behind the scenes and they likely picked abilities that are the easiest for them. I doubt they pick the most complex things for them.

It's not hard to make just about any 1st level class look easy if you try. It'll take getting in there and playing around with the options to see.

Captain Morgan: "it is confusing", this seems like a valid complaint for the preview posts. It might not be in play but causing confusion now is something to be concerned with.

Chest Rockwell wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Yeah, I feel like of all the criticisms you can level at a game we don't actually have,"it is confusing" is one of the most eyebrow raising. Yeah, games tend to be confusing when you don't know the rules yet.

The pregen character sheet has really made some things fall into place, for me, not confusing (numbers, etc), at all.

For me I can't really put much stock in the pregens: we don't see what it takes to get to those sheets behind the scenes and they likely picked abilities that are the easiest for them. I doubt they pick the most complex things for them.

It's not hard to make just about any 1st level class look easy if you try. It'll take getting in there and playing around with the options to see.

I can see what it takes to make those sheets, and I am sure many sheets will look simpler, all that alchemist crap (for me), I just glaze over.

If Divine Sorcerers replace Oracles, can they still wear armor and cast? I have really liked having melee combat Oracles.

They removed arcane spell failure for the play test, just need to grab a proficiency feet.

proficiency feet

Now you need proficiency in your feet!!! ;)

It's not hard to make just about any 1st level class look easy if you try. It'll take getting in there and playing around with the options to see.

We saw the whole list of Gnome Ancestry Feats, none seemed very complicated. I can't speak to Class Feats, of course, but I doubt they're a whole different level of complexity.

Captain Morgan: "it is confusing", this seems like a valid complaint for the preview posts. It might not be in play but causing confusion now is something to be concerned with.

Exactly, and pointing confusing things in the blog post gives the devs time to prepare FAQ and rules clarification to be published at the same time as the Playtest rules.

I know that these blog post aren't the rules but they do have a solid process to approve them, and if something is confusing in them, it might also be confusing in the playtest

Gavmania wrote:

Actually the blog uses the word "can…". If that was the only choice, it should have read "must choose your 1st level heal..."

The reason heal 1 is chosen is probably because it is the most logical; why choose to have known heal 2 and spont. heighten it when you can use a 1st level spell known and save your 2nd level slot?

That's beside the point. It is possible that all of your 1st level spell known are occupied by other spell, and you took Heal 3 because it was the earliest you had a free spot.

What happens then? Yes you CAN choose heal 3 as your spontaneous heightening spell, but it's currently really confusing what that will do.

Well, it specifically says to get heal 1, 2 and 3, you can...

Having followed the discussions, including Mark's responses, I feel pretty confident in saying that there was no intention to disallow heal 1 because you are heightening heal 3.

That said, I would have to wonder why you haven't got heal 1, as it is the most obvious candidate for spont. heighten. It makes no sense to dedicate a top level spell that will almost certainly become wasted because you are heightening that spell.

That said, I would have to wonder why you haven't got heal 1, as it is the most obvious candidate for spont. heighten. It makes no sense to dedicate a top level spell that will almost certainly become wasted because you are heightening that spell.

If Heal is always occupying a spontaneous heightening slot, Heal I is the most obvious candidate... but not necessarily the best one.

I would generally use my second highest level repertoire slots for the spells I prefer to spontaneously heighten. So that I can still cast a few potent versions of the spell if circumstances force me to pick something else that day.

Re: Can't heighten downwards

The spontaneous heightening feature lets you choose two spells at the start of each day that you can cast as their heightened versions using any of your spell slots.

It says spell, not heightened spell. Heal (level 3) is not heal the spell. Heal is the spell, that you are choosing to be able cast at any heightened level.

P.S. It also doesn't say you have to know the spell you're heightening.

[...]

P.S. It also doesn't say you have to know the spell you're heightening.

I think it's already been mentioned, but that's not the actual rules text, it's an informal description of what the ability does, so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from it.

It makes no sense to dedicate a top level spell that will almost certainly become wasted because you are heightening that spell.

It makes alot of sense... Yes, in a vacuum you want to avoid it, but if you actually want to use your daily Spontaneous Heighten choice in different ways on a daily basis, then a spell you select for Heightening one day isn't selected another day. On that day, you're stuck with the single version you know of it, so in that case it makes alot of sense to learn a mid-level version if you think that will be more useful to you. The SAME dynamic which drove Paizo to avoid downcasting in first place (max # Heighten tiers dictating top level slots) is still alive and well, in this case dictating your 1st level slots... rather than spells which could simply be nice 1st level slots for you. I actually was going to post on this precise topic, the necessity of also allowing downcasting (within limited SpontHeighten mechanic) before I even logged in today.

This is my issue with the system, it isn't actually getting away from dynamic it's designed to avoid... Regardless of whether 1st level or max level Spells Known slots are targetted, it's still pushing max Heighten tier spells. If you want to avoid those spells completely (personally I just don't like Summons, even if I concede their efficacy, some people just won't want to get into Dispel tactics, etc) that means direct loss of power (by the same assumptions of maximizing Spells Known which has dictated Paizo's design choice). IMHO, this is consequence of very low granular system, i.e. choose 2 'SPELL CHAINS' and you can get versions of them at every level... Instead of aiming for X number of Heighten Tiers.

Which is why I think it's better to aim for the latter, by having the ability choose specific Heighten Tiers at specific spell levels, rather than pick two big chains. Now, it's possible that such an approach could be powerful, since it allows covering more 'themes' of spells. Sure. But that implicitly concedes the "choose 2 spell chains" approach is NOT giving you full value for the # of "virtual Spells Known" (Heighten Tiers of existing Spells Known) it purportedly is granting you.

Thinking over my last proposal (2 Heightened "virtual spells known" per spell level, each spell level chosen independently), I realised I would be fine even if it had less "virtual Spells Known" than the "2 full chains" approach, because the granularity is valuable. It would probably be attractive even if it had HALF the "virtual spells known". But let's say, to allow for "full chains" to not be impeded, you could have your choice: choose 2 full chains OR replace one/both of them with 1/2 the number of Spells Known. 1/2 is hard to do with odd numbers of course, but since we want an equal spread of Spell Levels anyways, why don't we say when you replace a chain you can choose ALL EVEN or ALL ODD spell levels. One of those will always be slightly more than 1/2, but less than the full chain for sure. You can then select ANY of your spells known to Heighten/Lower into each spell level you are granted. This also has side effect of mitigating the high granularity of per-spell level designation with potential sub-optimality of EVEN or ODD not corresponding to the exact Heighten tier you want... forcing you to Heighten it to the next highest spell level which is mostly a waste. So, you would have choice of the same as now (2 chains), OR 1 chain + EVEN/ODD slots (~3/4 of virtual spell slots as 2 chain option) with potential Tier/level suboptimality, OR EVEN AND ODD slots (~1/2 virtual spell slots as 2 chain option).

There's also another benefit, namely, it's clear that the 'value' of being able to Spontaneously Heighten an entire spell chain is more than just being able to cast 1 specific Heighten tier. Any mechanics/items/etc adding the latter would be alot easier to properly gage and price (considering the entire Chain changes in value the more spell levels you get, while 1 specific spell known doesn't really, at least to same degree). While the base system using that paradigm isn't technically necessary for auxiliary mechanics to use that paradigm, IMHO it would work much more smoothly and supply if they both did, because players would already be engaging in dynamics and just adding one more SpontHeighten "Spell Known" of given level would be keying into what they already do.

That's all I time for now, but I want to repeat how I think any limited SpontHeighten system (this, or existing 2-chain approach) REALLY should allow for "ambidirectional" spell level variations, because otherwise puts all the pressure on low level spell slots... In a way that really is disfunctional given the "Daily" designation of SpontHeighten spells yet Spells Known are largely fixed on a Class-Level basis. If the "Daily' designation is to be flexible, then we want ALL the spells to be valuable even when not chosen for SpontHeighten. It really doesn't hurt anything to allow both, if a player is happy always selecting 1-level spells then they can do that. If they want to select one that is their max level spell (because they want the max level version even when they don't select that to SpontHeighten for a day) then I don't see the harm done.

Also: TERMINOLOGY. There's alot of concepts VERY closely habitating here. "Spontaneous Heighten" is a specific class mechanic (now limited via 2-chain mechanic). But what if I learn "5th Level Heighten Invisibility" as a spell known? Then I can cast that spontaneosly, which is spontaneous heighten spellcasting, just not the class ability. Of course, if we allow ambidirectional spell level shifting, then "Heighten" may not be best term in first place. I think the class ability name can change, especially since it isn't very "Spontaneous" itself, since it involves daily planning (which people seem to dislike as going against Spontaneous nature of Sorc, but I digress). I think finding a "flavor"/visualization for what this is in the game world will help, i.e. "Flux Attunement" with caster focusing more on certain parts of their repertoire to become adept at more variations of them. Maybe call the "virtual spells known" gained "Flux Spells". Just something off the top of my head, but current terminology seems like minefield IMHO.

willuwontu wrote:

[...]

P.S. It also doesn't say you have to know the spell you're heightening.

I think it's already been mentioned, but that's not the actual rules text, it's an informal description of what the ability does, so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from it.

Shhhh, let me bask in deliberate misreadings, just like the not able to cast at all levels of the spell only up. :P

On a serious note though, that'd actually be cool if you could use it to temporarily get access to spells you don't know.

Looks pretty good. I do have a few concerns:

The lower number of spells per day is something I'm not sure about. I can understand not giving the sorcerer more than everyone else anymore because now they're not behind in spell levels. But I'm concerned about how all of the caster classes have fewer spells. Seems a bit limiting.

Being able to cast from different lists depending on bloodline is rather cool. But there is the issue of some classic bloodlines not having the same list anymore which does cause a bit of a problem for updating modules, APs and PCs to the new edition. Also some concepts fit one bloodline but not that spell list (divine for demonic seems really off, although I think I get the reasoning). Perhaps bloodlines should have an option of spell lists? Like you can do either arcane or divine with one bloodline, divine or primal with another and occult or arcane with a third. Etc. Gives a bit more flexibility with the spell lists and bloodline while not completely separating them.

I was concerned that the ability to do other lists was going to replace the Oracle, but thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case. There is certainly still room for an oracle with their curses and mysteries separate from the sorcerer. Maybe the future oracle can have the spell list flexibility thing as well. Having arcane, primal and occult oracles could be cool for certain mysteries.

I'm still a bit skeptical of just having only 4 spell lists. I don't think any of the lists really fits the bard very well. Although I do wonder if bards are going to have this kind of casting replaced with spell point powers kind of like the paladin. And later when other classes are brought over I don't know how they're going to fit in with these lists.

Gavmania wrote:

That said, I would have to wonder why you haven't got heal 1, as it is the most obvious candidate for spont. heighten. It makes no sense to dedicate a top level spell that will almost certainly become wasted because you are heightening that spell.

If Heal is always occupying a spontaneous heightening slot, Heal I is the most obvious candidate... but not necessarily the best one.

Given that a spell like Heal, Summon Monster, or Magic Missile has so many permutations you could select, the best one is usually going to be the permutation that has the fewest competitors for it's repertoire slot.
You might need the extra 1st-3rd level repertoire slot more.

I would generally use my second highest level repertoire slots for the spells I prefer to spontaneously heighten. So that I can still cast a few potent versions of the spell if circumstances force me to pick something else that day.

What the sorcerer really needs is a way to add a spell to his repertoire for the day so that he can heighten it, like say if there was a feat that enabled you to add the spell from a scroll to your repertoire. Wait, there is...

Honestly, with the way all casters are getting less spells per day and limited resonance, I fear that Paizo is doubling down on the 15 minute adventuring day, instead of trying to alleviate that problem, even with scaling damage cantrips.

graystone wrote:

It's not hard to make just about any 1st level class look easy if you try. It'll take getting in there and playing around with the options to see.

We saw the whole list of Gnome Ancestry Feats, none seemed very complicated. I can't speak to Class Feats, of course, but I doubt they're a whole different level of complexity.

My point was that a simple to read character sheet doesn't mean that the behind the scenes work to make it is also simple or that every character made will be as easy to use: It may be, but the sheets aren't going to give us enough info to say one way or the other.

Honestly, with the way all casters are getting less spells per day and limited resonance, I fear that Paizo is doubling down on the 15 minute adventuring day, instead of trying to alleviate that problem, even with scaling damage cantrips.

I feel like the goal is to encourage casters to save their spells for meaningful obstacles and fights instead of simply magicking away whatever problem which could have been solved with a skill check or roleplaying. Like if you need to get someone on the top of the building for whatever reason, let the monk roll acrobatics before you burn a spell slot. If we need to convince someone we're friendly- diplomacy before mind control. One of the ways we make skills important is by doing away with or limiting situations where magic obviates skills.

With Cantrips being viable combat options now, without limiting spell slots you'd run the risk of every random challenge being able to be spelled away.

Honestly, with the way all casters are getting less spells per day and limited resonance, I fear that Paizo is doubling down on the 15 minute adventuring day, instead of trying to alleviate that problem, even with scaling damage cantrips.

I sort of worry about that too. Like: I totally see some chump blowing both of their top level spells in the first fight of the day and then complaining about how the party needs to rest. That was only not a problem in 1e because fights only lasted like 2 turns, though.

magnuskn wrote:

Honestly, with the way all casters are getting less spells per day and limited resonance, I fear that Paizo is doubling down on the 15 minute adventuring day, instead of trying to alleviate that problem, even with scaling damage cantrips.

I sort of worry about that too. Like: I totally see some chump blowing both of their top level spells in the first fight of the day and then complaining about how the party needs to rest. That was only not a problem in 1e because fights only lasted like 2 turns, though.

You DO forget one thing though: Clerics and Wizards (and Sorcerers) have Orisons and Cantrips which scale upward and are "infinite" in being reusable over and over again. So really the thing that will determine the end of the combat day is when the healing runs dry. And depending on the Rituals for Healing, it may be more you do several encounters, hole up, do a Ritual to heal up, and then continue fighting again.

Wizards and Clerics would use actual leveled spells against bigger foes... and may start off doing a Magical Girl system of using their lowest level (and Cantrip/Orison) spells against foes initially and then escalating to powerful attacks against foes who are actually a real threat.

It means Wizard/Sorcerer and Cleric players will have to change HOW they fight... but really, smarter players tend to hold off on using their heavy-hitting spells unless facing larger numbers of foes or something they know is a clear threat.

Amusingly enough, the fact we have Scaling Cantrips means that Wizards and Clerics may very well be the ones pushing past the time when their more potent talents are used up... because they can STILL do something useful in a fight.

Xelaaredn wrote:

To be fair, with the example given, I'm pretty sure primal magic is nature stuff. Like, Druidic stuff.

Personally I'd love to see the kineticist make a move over once things get rolling.

I think that would be a cool thing. Kineticists are clearly inspired, at least in part, by benders (á la Avatar: The Last Airbender), and the benders' powers have a spiritual origin even though they mostly aren't linked to particular spirits. That'd fit well with primal magic, at least on paper.

Kineticists were inspired by movies such as The Fury and Scanners, where using your power caused you to suffer horrible injuries.

Excaliburproxy wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Honestly, with the way all casters are getting less spells per day and limited resonance, I fear that Paizo is doubling down on the 15 minute adventuring day, instead of trying to alleviate that problem, even with scaling damage cantrips.

I sort of worry about that too. Like: I totally see some chump blowing both of their top level spells in the first fight of the day and then complaining about how the party needs to rest. That was only not a problem in 1e because fights only lasted like 2 turns, though.

You DO forget one thing though: Clerics and Wizards (and Sorcerers) have Orisons and Cantrips which scale upward and are "infinite" in being reusable over and over again. So really the thing that will determine the end of the combat day is when the healing runs dry. And depending on the Rituals for Healing, it may be more you do several encounters, hole up, do a Ritual to heal up, and then continue fighting again.

Wizards and Clerics would use actual leveled spells against bigger foes... and may start off doing a Magical Girl system of using their lowest level (and Cantrip/Orison) spells against foes initially and then escalating to powerful attacks against foes who are actually a real threat.

It means Wizard/Sorcerer and Cleric players will have to change HOW they fight... but really, smarter players tend to hold off on using their heavy-hitting spells unless facing larger numbers of foes or something they know is a clear threat.

Amusingly enough, the fact we have Scaling Cantrips means that Wizards and Clerics may very well be the ones pushing past the time when their more potent talents are used up... because they can STILL do something useful in a fight.

I did not forget that at all. I merely think that chumps will want to hit the breaks after blowing all their cool tricks. Hopefully, DMs will punish players who try such tactics, though? I dunno. It is not something that has an easy solution. Games aren't ever gona be entirely chump-proof.

Also, neo vancian carries a whole host of problems which are probably beyond the scope of this thread, but I think how bad the 5e sorcerer feels compared to the 5e wizard illustrates some of them.

A lil late coming back to the party, but this is nonsense.

I don't want to repost my whole spiel on this but the 15 minute work day concern has very little to do with the size of the resource pool and everything to do with specific things which keep people from being able to rest whenever it is convenient.

Shrinking the resource pool makes it so that you can conceivably wear a party down without using a boring and impractical number of encounters. This is especially important if you have some class with finite resources to burn and other classes who don't but are supposed to have a.stronger baseline. This is part of why fighters being "all day" didn't mean much past a certain level. There were so many spell slots a caster rarely had to worry about running out.

Also, to continue on from Captain Morgan's point, one of the things having each individual resource pool be on the small side, is that when you have multiplie resource pools it makes you have to balance their use.

A sorcerer has basically three resources: spell slots, spell points, and resonance. If you run out of one of these well before either of the other two, you have likely made poor choices. When you're out of slots, points, and resonance then it's time to rest. Who knows if this takes 15 minutes or not.

Captain Morgan wrote:

Also, neo vancian carries a whole host of problems which are probably beyond the scope of this thread, but I think how bad the 5e sorcerer feels compared to the 5e wizard illustrates some of them.

A lil late coming back to the party, but this is nonsense.

Sorcerer problems in 5E are entirely about not having enough of their given resources (spell points, spells, etc) and have absolutely nothing at all to do with *how* their spells are cast.
The fact that a 5E Bard knows more spells than a 5E Sorcerer is a Sorcerer problem. Neo-vancian casting is not.

The issue isn't how the sorcerer spells are cast, it is that everyone else casts the same way but gets more. A Wizard prepare more spells than a sorcerer even knows.

If the sorcerer got free heightening and the wizard didn't we might see an actual trade off. Alternatively, as you point out giving them more spells known or spell points might fix it. But that largely feels like speculation. Even if you've done some housekeeping to that effect with positive results, Paizo's internal play testing has almost certainly been more rigorous and relevant to pathfinder.

I guess my point is that while it might be possible to make 5e casting mechanics satisfying for all classes involved, with everyone getting neo vancian and free heightening, I have yet to actually see it,executed in a fun and balanced manner. Pointing to a system that really dropped the ball with the sorcerer feels really weird when making suggestions to improve the sorcerer.

Your mileage may vary!

I essentially agree with you two (cabbage and Cap’n). However, I do think the smaller resource pool and the restructuring of spells to essentially make lower level spells less relevant does mean that the “15 minute adventure day” will come up more often. That does not mean INCREASED spell resources is the solution, though. I think either the game or the GM needs to either make clear how many encounters are expected to go on in an adventuring day so that players can make informed decisions about their resource use. I know that might rub some people the wrong way since it maybe does not make sense for people to have that information. Alternately, you could just make the whole game work off of encounter based resources or the DM can just systematically punish players who blow all of their resources in one or two fights (as I alluded to before).

I essentially agree with you two (cabbage and Cap’n). However, I do think the smaller resource pool and the restructuring of spells to essentially make lower level spells less relevant does mean that the “15 minute adventure day” will come up more often. That does not mean INCREASED spell resources is the solution, though. I think either the game or the GM needs to either make clear how many encounters are expected to go on in an adventuring day so that players can make informed decisions about their resource use. I know that might rub some people the wrong way since it maybe does not make sense for people to have that information. Alternately, you could just make the whole game work off of encounter based resources or the DM can just systematically punish players who blow all of their resources in one or two fights (as I alluded to before).

I feel like when you say encounter based resources there is going to be a knee jerk 4e outcry. Starfinder seems to have something akin to this though where 10 minutes rest and a stamina point can restore a lot of stuff. But I haven't played Starfinder so I can't comment on how fun it is.

I feel like it is very difficult for the game to make it clear how many encounters are expected because I'm not sure there is a one sized fits all number here. A GM can certainly create this expectation but we GMs love surprising players too.

I feel like the trick to managing spell slots and other resources is to pick the moment where the spell will have the most possible impact. Recognizing that moment is a big part of the game's tactical challenge, and I don't think PF2 is trying to make those decisions easier TBH. There is a big focus on providing a lot of different things you can do with your 3 actions and each having trade offs with each other.

I mean at low levels, 3 1st level slots, 3 2nd level slots, and viable cantrips is a heck of a lot better than "6 1st level slots, 3 2nd level slots, and your cantrips are worse than a crossbow".