Sorcerer Class Preview

Monday, July 9, 2018

Their magical blood gives sorcerers their spellcasting power, and it's been a major part of the class since Pathfinder's inception. So for the Pathfinder Playtest, we're going all in: your character's bloodline determines her spell list!

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Bloodlines

You pick your bloodline at 1st level, which tells you which spell list you use: arcane, divine, primal, or occult (the last of the four magical traditions, which we'll cover in a future blog!). It also defines some of the spells you know. For instance, the demonic bloodline gives you the divine spell list and the fear spell at 1st level, in addition to two other spells that you choose yourself from the divine list. In some cases, the special spells from your bloodline come from other lists. For example, the demonic bloodline gives you slow when you learn 3rd-level spells (for the sin of sloth) and disintegrate when you learn 6th-level spells. There are a couple more. How about we look at that whole bloodline entry and you can make your own guesses about which ones are from other lists?

Demonic

The demons of the Abyss debase all they touch, and one of your ancestors fell victim to their corruption. You're burdened with dark thoughts and the desire for destruction. This urge can be overcome if you choose to fight it, but the beauty of sin calls to you always.

Spell List divine (Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook 200)

Signature Skills Athletics, Deception, Intimidation, Religion

Granted Spells Cantrip: detect magic; 1st: fear; 2nd: resist energy; 3rd: slow; 4th: divine wrath; 5th: banishment; 6th: disintegrate; 7th: divine decree; 8th: power word stun; 9th: meteor swarm

Bloodline Powers Initial Power: glutton's jaws; Advanced Power: swamp of sloth (2); Greater Power: abyssal wrath (2)

You can see that the bloodline also determines your most important skills and gives you some bloodline powers. We've talked about powers before (see the cleric preview. These are special spells you can get only from specific classes, and they are cast using Spell Points rather than spell slots. They also automatically heighten to the highest level of spell you can cast. You start out with a number of Spell Points per day equal to your Charisma modifier, and if you have the demonic bloodline, you gain the glutton's jaws power, which you can cast at a cost of 1 Spell Point.

Glutton's Jaws Power 1

Necromancy

Casting [[A]] Somatic Casting, [[A]] Verbal Casting

Duration 1 minute


Your mouth transforms into a shadowy maw bristling with pointed teeth. These jaws grant you an unarmed attack you're trained in, dealing 1d6 piercing damage. They have the finesse trait.

Attacks with your jaws have the following enhancement.

Enhancement If the target was living, gain 1d4 temporary HP.

Heightened (2nd) Your jaws gain the effects of a +1 weapon potency rune (a +1 item bonus to attack rolls and an additional damage die) and the temporary Hit Points increase to 2d4.

Heightened (4th) The jaws gain the effects of a +2 weapon potency rune and the temporary Hit Points increase to 3d4.

Heightened (6th) The jaws gain the effects of a +3 weapon potency rune and the temporary Hit Points increase to 4d4.

Heightened (8th) The jaws gain the effects of a +4 weapon potency rune and the temporary Hit Points increase to 5d4.

At higher levels, you'll get to make a swampy morass that makes creatures slothful or call forth the dangers of an Abyssal realm.

The number of bloodlines in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook is fairly small, since we want to see how people react to the new style of the class with just a subset of the bloodlines. In the book, you'll see the following bloodlines: aberrant (occult), angelic (divine), demonic (divine), draconic (arcane), fey (primal) and imperial (arcane). That last one comes from the magical traditions of ancient mortals and matches our iconic sorcerer, Seoni!

Spontaneous Spellcasting

This is our first preview of a spontaneous spellcaster! The sorcerer gets the same number of spells per day as a wizard, but she has a number of spells she knows permanently instead of preparing them from a spellbook every day. The spells she knows make up her spell repertoire. That means she can choose which spell to cast each time she casts a spell instead of needing to plan ahead. It's worth noting that the sorcerer now learns spells at the same character level as the wizard: 2nd-level spells at 3rd level, 3rd-level spells at 5th level, and so on.

As you level up, you learn new spells and can replace some of the spells you previously had with new ones. This lets you get rid of some spells that were great options when they were at your highest level but maybe aren't worth casting anymore.

The sorcerer's spellcasting is based on her inborn magical potency, so she uses her Charisma for her spell rolls and spell DCs. Because Charisma also adds to Resonance Points, the sorcerer can make up for some of her limited spell choice compared to the wizard's spellbook by supplementing her spell selection with more scrolls, staves, and wands.

Sorcerer Features

Many of the sorcerer's class features were explained under bloodline, as most of them tie back to that choice. The sorcerer gains her advanced power at 6th level and her greater bloodline power at 10th level. As with other spellcasters, her proficiency with spell rolls and spell DCs increases to expert at 12th level, master at 16th, and legendary at 19th.

The sorcerer gets one other class feature, called spontaneous heightening. As mentioned before, some spells in your lower-level spell slots get less useful as you go up in level. However, there are some spells you might want to cast with any of your slots. The spontaneous heightening feature lets you choose two spells at the start of each day that you can cast as their heightened versions using any of your spell slots. That means that if you want your angelic sorcerer to be able to cast 1st-level heal, 2nd-level heal, and 3rd-level heal, you can choose your 1st-level heal spell with spontaneous heightening rather than needing to learn the spell in your spell repertoire at all three spell levels. Then you can cast a 1st-level heal to top off someone's Hit Points when they're almost at full and still cast a 3rd-level heal in the middle of a fight to really save someone from the brink!

Sorcerer Feats

The sorcerer's feats primarily deal with her spells. Sorcerers get metamagic feats, many of which they share with other casters. One we haven't shown off yet is Overwhelming Spell at 8th level, which lets a spell that deals acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage ignore the first 10 points of a target's resistance.

If you want to make a blaster, you can pick up Dangerous Sorcery, which increases the damage of your spells by their spell level (with the exception of cantrips). You can also take Blood Magic at 8th level, which uses the magical potential in your blood to grant temporary Hit Points to you or a target of your spell if you're bleeding when you cast it.

One of my favorite cycles of feats are the evolution feats, which reinforce the themes of each magical tradition. Arcane Evolution makes your arcane sorcerer trained in a skill and lets you add a spell from a scroll to your spell repertoire for the day when you prepare each morning. Divine Evolution lets you channel energy like a cleric. Occult Evolution gives you a skill and lets you pick a spell with the mental trait to add to your repertoire each day. Finally, Primal Evolution lets you cast summon nature's ally as an innate spell once per day at the highest spell level you can cast.

How about a 20th-level feat? Sorcerers can take a feat to gain 10th-level spells of their tradition, but you might want to look at other options, like Wellspring Spell. This metamagic feat lets you cast a 5th-level or lower spell once per minute without expending the spell slot!

What sort of predictions do you have for the bloodlines? What spells will they get? Does this new scheme make you more or less likely to play a sorcerer? Do you want to try out a gnome fey sorcerer? How about an angelic sorcerer with the heal spell? Let us know in the comments, and start preparing for when you get the book!

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Seoni Sorcerers Wayne Reynolds
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TheFinish wrote:
Gyor wrote:
Has it occurred to anyone else, but Divine Sorcerers are going to be better at channel energy then clerics? Do Divine Sorcerers still have pick a God or does the Bloodline Dictate the form the ability takes?

I assume they don't have to pick a god, you just get the spell list. No anathema either.

As for being better at Channeling...no chance. A Cleric gets 3+CHA per day of either heal or harm automatically heightened to their highest spell level for free. For a sorcerer to match that they'd need to spend all (or at least, most) of their highest level slots on the spell (plus one of their two daily Spontaneous Heightening uses) just to match what the Cleric is doing for free.

They don't need to spend anymore slots than a cleric does.

blag wrote:
Divine Evolution lets you channel energy like a cleric.
blag wrote:
Remember channel energy from earlier? This feature lets you cast heal or harm an additional number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier!


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Man, that's what I get for going off memory and not re-reading the blog. I thought Divine Evolution was just auto-heightening heal without needing to spend one of your two daily slots, for whatever reason.

On second reading it does seem....incredibly more powerful than the other options. I mean, and entire class feature for a feat? Doesn't seem quite right.


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TheFinish wrote:

Man, that's what I get for going off memory and not re-reading the blog. I thought Divine Evolution was just auto-heightening heal without needing to spend one of your two daily slots, for whatever reason.

On second reading it does seem....incredibly more powerful than the other options. I mean, and entire class feature for a feat? Doesn't seem quite right.

If anything, it is even better for the Sorceror than it is for the Cleric because Sorc has the higher Charisma. Even before the game is released, I maybe want to call that feat a "must have" for divine sorcerors.

Really though, all 4 seem like solid options.


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I mean we don't know if "like a cleric" actually means "using charisma to channel like a cleric" or not. It's likely, but I wouldn't say that it's impossible for say, Divine Evolution to use Wisdom instead.


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Excaliburproxy wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

Man, that's what I get for going off memory and not re-reading the blog. I thought Divine Evolution was just auto-heightening heal without needing to spend one of your two daily slots, for whatever reason.

On second reading it does seem....incredibly more powerful than the other options. I mean, and entire class feature for a feat? Doesn't seem quite right.

If anything, it is even better for the Sorceror than it is for the Cleric because Sorc has the higher Charisma. Even before the game is released, I maybe want to call that feat a "must have" for divine sorcerors.

Really though, all 4 seem like solid options.

Solid, maybe, but Divine is by far the most powerful. I mean, it's literally a complete Class Feature. For a feat (or maybe feats, plural? Blog isn't very clear).

I mean:

Arcane: Trained in a Skill, add a spell from a Scroll to your repertoire. So you need to have a scroll, it adds one spell. Now, I assume you can then use one of your two Spontaneous Heightenings on it as well, but you're still spending spell slots and what not.

Occult: Same deal as Arcane, but instead of a scroll it limits the type of spell you add. At least I think it's the same as Arcane, gives you a skill is pretty vague.

Primal: 1/day highest level summon nature's ally. This doesn't take up your slots but it's 1/day.

Divine: (3+CHA)/Day highest level harm or heal. No need to use your slots either.

These....don't seem remotely balanced with each other. Maybe the balance comes from the spell lists themselves, or the bloodline powers, but we won't know until later.

And giving an entire Class Feature as a feat to another class just rankles. But it may be more than one feat required. In which case it still rankles, just a bit less.


Also, while it's mechanically inelegant. Depending on how it plays out with the spell selections, I kind of like spontaneous heightening after thinking about it a bit more.

It basically plays out as picking a pair of signature spells for that day, and I get the impression that the spells chosen will feel special or core to your strategy as a result.

Liberty's Edge

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Excaliburproxy wrote:
I can definitely see a sorceror taking a turn where they cast a 2 action spell and then bite an enemy at their full BAB (which will be around 2-7 behind a fight boys BAB in all likelihood). I feel like it may fall off in usefulness at higher levels if the sorceror never increases their unarmed proficiency. Maybe they can multiclass monk somehow?

If you keep your Dex maxed (a solid call) it's probably only 5 points behind an optimal Fighter, and more like 3 points behind most other martial characters most of the time. The Temp HP are also really awesome. Really, I see it as a very common option to pre-buff with prior to combat and then use as necessary. Using it as the mainstay of being a melee Sorcerer also seems a very solid option.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
I sincerely hope Seltyiel did not fall to the "cover thy flesh" imperative :-)
Yeah, he and Alahazra should stick with their life choices in this regard. Everyone else can cover up if they want (though Feiya and Crowe retaining their current looks, more or less, would also be solid...assuming Crowe even comes back, of course).
Why Alahazra? She's the other massive failure to communicate in Reynold's art gallery, she only looks the way she does because nobody told him she's supposed to be wearing medium armor.

Alahazra is from a warm climate, has Endure Elements on-list, and actually specified as actively using her sex appeal in her Background.

In PF2 she can also be using Bracers of Armor and be fine mechanically. She's the Iconic who, mechanical issues in PF1 (which no longer apply in PF2) aside, actually has the most justification to be dressed like that in-world.


I wonder if the Divine Evolution doesn't give you exactly the Cleric's Channel energy feature, but a version thereof. As in "cast auto-heightened harm or heal less a number of times/day less than 3+ChaMod."

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Removed stuff. Let's move on from the discussion of sex appeal and iconics.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I wonder if the Divine Evolution doesn't give you exactly the Cleric's Channel energy feature, but a version thereof. As in "cast auto-heightened harm or heal less a number of times/day less than 3+ChaMod."

We know some feats are repeatable. Do we know if this applies to class feats?

Liberty's Edge

Sara Marie wrote:
Removed stuff. Let's move on from the discussion of sex appeal and iconics.

Will do.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
If you keep your Dex maxed (a solid call) it's probably only 5 points behind an optimal Fighter, and more like 3 points behind most other martial characters most of the time. The Temp HP are also really awesome. Really, I see it as a very common option to pre-buff with prior to combat and then use as necessary. Using it as the mainstay of being a melee Sorcerer also seems a very solid option.

You know, as a perma-DM part of me is quite sad that I won't get to try out my adorable little amicably evil demon sorc gnome healer with some melee capability -bag full of mice and head opening up like the stranger things demogorgon.


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I feel your pain, I really want to play the playtest... but most likely I'll be gming it instead.


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Xenocrat wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
Gyor wrote:
Has it occurred to anyone else, but Divine Sorcerers are going to be better at channel energy then clerics? Do Divine Sorcerers still have pick a God or does the Bloodline Dictate the form the ability takes?

I assume they don't have to pick a god, you just get the spell list. No anathema either.

As for being better at Channeling...no chance. A Cleric gets 3+CHA per day of either heal or harm automatically heightened to their highest spell level for free. For a sorcerer to match that they'd need to spend all (or at least, most) of their highest level slots on the spell (plus one of their two daily Spontaneous Heightening uses) just to match what the Cleric is doing for free.

"Divine Evolution lets you channel energy like a cleric. "

Like a Cleric. The Sorcerer, unlike the Cleric, is CHA based, so they'll have more channels. Plus they can take Heal/Harm at 1st level and choose it for heightening if they want even more.

This is all true.

The cleric, however, probably has half a dozen class feats he can take that enhance channel. The sorcerer most likely doesn't. He might get one, but considering it is not a universal class ability, I don't think it likely. It remains a class feat available only to a small subset of sorcerers. That's all it will ever be.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I wonder if the Divine Evolution doesn't give you exactly the Cleric's Channel energy feature, but a version thereof. As in "cast auto-heightened harm or heal less a number of times/day less than 3+ChaMod."

Maybe. In PF1, a life-spirit shaman "can channel positive energy like a cleric", but gets two fewer uses per day with the same charisma.


TheFinish wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

Man, that's what I get for going off memory and not re-reading the blog. I thought Divine Evolution was just auto-heightening heal without needing to spend one of your two daily slots, for whatever reason.

On second reading it does seem....incredibly more powerful than the other options. I mean, and entire class feature for a feat? Doesn't seem quite right.

If anything, it is even better for the Sorceror than it is for the Cleric because Sorc has the higher Charisma. Even before the game is released, I maybe want to call that feat a "must have" for divine sorcerors.

Really though, all 4 seem like solid options.

Solid, maybe, but Divine is by far the most powerful. I mean, it's literally a complete Class Feature. For a feat (or maybe feats, plural? Blog isn't very clear).

I mean:

Arcane: Trained in a Skill, add a spell from a Scroll to your repertoire. So you need to have a scroll, it adds one spell. Now, I assume you can then use one of your two Spontaneous Heightenings on it as well, but you're still spending spell slots and what not.

Occult: Same deal as Arcane, but instead of a scroll it limits the type of spell you add. At least I think it's the same as Arcane, gives you a skill is pretty vague.

Primal: 1/day highest level summon nature's ally. This doesn't take up your slots but it's 1/day.

Divine: (3+CHA)/Day highest level harm or heal. No need to use your slots either.

These....don't seem remotely balanced with each other. Maybe the balance comes from the spell lists themselves, or the bloodline powers, but we won't know until later.

And giving an entire Class Feature as a feat to another class just rankles. But it may be more than one feat required. In which case it still rankles, just a bit less.

I am maybe guessing that the divine spell list is considered a little weaker than the other three given that a cleric gets so many toys at level 1. I make that statement without going back to the cleric and wizard blogs and staring really hard at them though.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
More overpowered? That implies it is overpowered now, when it just has 2 free heightens and it really isn't. Spontaneous casting is just getting shafted again.

Does your wizard or cleric somehow have perfect knowledge of what spells they need to prepare?

Sounds like there sorcerer is in a very strong place at the moment.


Shinigami02 wrote:
... I've never seen the mythical swarm of low-levels that AoE is supposed to be best used on. Now maybe I've just not played the *right* games for that, but I've played a lot of things. ...

It doesn't help premade adventure design, but I once had a party of 3 level 7s encounter 60 orcs and a spellcaster leader orc. It was one of the most intense encounters I've seen so far.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Excaliburproxy wrote:
I am maybe guessing that the divine spell list is considered a little weaker than the other three given that a cleric...

Clerics have traditionally had less offensive and more defensive magics available to them. From what I remember, Clerics also do NOT get bonus spells, not even bonus Domain spells, so they end up having fewer spells per day as a result. In theory Channel Energy "fixes" that problem but Clerics of old had Channel Energy and as many spells as Wizards and they were not considered overpowered compared to Wizards.

The Exchange

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Vlorax wrote:
NetoD20 wrote:
Quandary wrote:
About Heighten, it does fundamentally seem strange for a Wizard to be able to arbitrarily choose any # of spells to Heighten each day (limited by spell slots), but a Sorceror can't. Perhaps a compromise would be allowing the Sorceror to be able to prepare-as-Heightened similar to a Wizard AND have limited spontaneous-Heighten ability on the side. I feel like part of calculus is not letting low-level Spells Known freely "upgrade" to high-level Spells Known, although I feel that concern isn't as strong as it seems at first glance, considering the Wizard is being allowed to gain spells and later freely Heighten them at no cost.
I've always loved you, Paizo, but no, don't try to push this on me. State things plainly, "we are nerfing spellcasters", don't sugar-coat it.
It's not really a secret and it's welcomed.

You are half correct. It is no secret and it is entirely unwelcome. It adds unneeded complexity to the game. Do we really need 9 levels of invisibility or detect invisibility for that matter? Just make dispel easy. Paizo is fixing a problem that does not need fixing and doubling down on the God Mage concept by making save or die/suck spells more potent. This will cause hyper specialization and be a big problem.


Tangent101 wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
I am maybe guessing that the divine spell list is considered a little weaker than the other three given that a cleric...
Clerics have traditionally had less offensive and more defensive magics available to them. From what I remember, Clerics also do NOT get bonus spells, not even bonus Domain spells, so they end up having fewer spells per day as a result. In theory Channel Energy "fixes" that problem but Clerics of old had Channel Energy and as many spells as Wizards and they were not considered overpowered compared to Wizards.

True. The cleric also gets more health and armor proficiencies and what-have-you than the sorcerer and wizard. In PF1, the Wizard was almost certainly balanced around having he “better” spell list. It seems like that tradition may carry forward into PF2. I wonder if these various “Evolution” feats imply anything else w.r.t. the variable strengths of each spell list.


Talek & Luna wrote:
Vlorax wrote:
NetoD20 wrote:
Quandary wrote:
About Heighten, it does fundamentally seem strange for a Wizard to be able to arbitrarily choose any # of spells to Heighten each day (limited by spell slots), but a Sorceror can't. Perhaps a compromise would be allowing the Sorceror to be able to prepare-as-Heightened similar to a Wizard AND have limited spontaneous-Heighten ability on the side. I feel like part of calculus is not letting low-level Spells Known freely "upgrade" to high-level Spells Known, although I feel that concern isn't as strong as it seems at first glance, considering the Wizard is being allowed to gain spells and later freely Heighten them at no cost.
I've always loved you, Paizo, but no, don't try to push this on me. State things plainly, "we are nerfing spellcasters", don't sugar-coat it.
It's not really a secret and it's welcomed.
You are half correct. It is no secret and it is entirely unwelcome. It adds unneeded complexity to the game. Do we really need 9 levels of invisibility or detect invisibility for that matter? Just make dispel easy. Paizo is fixing a problem that does not need fixing and doubling down on the God Mage concept by making save or die/suck spells more potent. This will cause hyper specialization and be a big problem.

Please define "Entirely unwelcome". I for one welcome a spellcaster nerf. But I don't think Sorcerers need the nerf as much as Wizards, and for the particulars of this specific nerf (i.e. a sorcerer can't heighten any but two spells, but a wizard can) disproportionately impact the sorcerer more than Wizard. I can see that unlimited heightening could be also unbalancing, but I don't see this as the happy medium.

But as far as an unwelcome nerf, I'd much rather have the PF2e sorcerer, as is, than the Godcasters of 1e.


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So, keeping casters from blowing through challenges, obstacles, and narrative tension points by casting a spell and winning is in no way entirely unwelcome to a GM.

So like how level 0 detect magic no longer ruins high level illusions? Great, Illusions are suddenly usable again. Spell slots are precious so a caster is unwilling to ruin a murder mystery with magic when there is obviously a conventional solution available? Ace.


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I am definitely someone that leans towards spell casters. My favourite classes are sorcerer, paladin, druid, cleric, bard, oracle, rogue. In that order.

I absolutely welcome the caster nurf. It is entirely required at high levels.


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For the record, Mark has clarified in another thread that the Divine Evolution allows you to Channel like a Cleric 1/day, much like how Primal gives you 1/day summon nature's ally

So now it's much more balanced, and not eyebrow raising.


Now the Arcane and Occult versions, letting you choose an extra spell to count as a spell known, are a lot more competitive.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like a feat which allows a Wizard to prepare a spell in the middle of combat would be inappropriate. Faster than "1 hour"? Sure. 6 seconds? No.

It'd require Legendary proficiency in Arcane Magic to do, which both seems fair and appropriate for what Legendary spellcasters are capable of. So I'm not sure what the problem here is.


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Tholomyes wrote:
Talek & Luna wrote:
Vlorax wrote:
NetoD20 wrote:
Quandary wrote:
About Heighten, it does fundamentally seem strange for a Wizard to be able to arbitrarily choose any # of spells to Heighten each day (limited by spell slots), but a Sorceror can't. Perhaps a compromise would be allowing the Sorceror to be able to prepare-as-Heightened similar to a Wizard AND have limited spontaneous-Heighten ability on the side. I feel like part of calculus is not letting low-level Spells Known freely "upgrade" to high-level Spells Known, although I feel that concern isn't as strong as it seems at first glance, considering the Wizard is being allowed to gain spells and later freely Heighten them at no cost.
I've always loved you, Paizo, but no, don't try to push this on me. State things plainly, "we are nerfing spellcasters", don't sugar-coat it.
It's not really a secret and it's welcomed.
You are half correct. It is no secret and it is entirely unwelcome. It adds unneeded complexity to the game. Do we really need 9 levels of invisibility or detect invisibility for that matter? Just make dispel easy. Paizo is fixing a problem that does not need fixing and doubling down on the God Mage concept by making save or die/suck spells more potent. This will cause hyper specialization and be a big problem.

Please define "Entirely unwelcome". I for one welcome a spellcaster nerf. But I don't think Sorcerers need the nerf as much as Wizards, and for the particulars of this specific nerf (i.e. a sorcerer can't heighten any but two spells, but a wizard can) disproportionately impact the sorcerer more than Wizard. I can see that unlimited heightening could be also unbalancing, but I don't see this as the happy medium.

But as far as an unwelcome nerf, I'd much rather have the PF2e sorcerer, as is, than the Godcasters of 1e.

spontaneous heighten isn't a nerf, it's a strict upgrade. It doesn't matter that a wizard gets auto-heighten, they pretty much could anyway once they got hold of the scrolls and spellbooks that gave them the spells, but they are still stuck to what they prepare.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like a feat which allows a Wizard to prepare a spell in the middle of combat would be inappropriate. Faster than "1 hour"? Sure. 6 seconds? No.
It'd require Legendary proficiency in Arcane Magic to do, which both seems fair and appropriate for what Legendary spellcasters are capable of. So I'm not sure what the problem here is.

I guess as a thing you could take instead of 10th level spells, it would be fine.


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Malthraz wrote:

I am definitely someone that leans towards spell casters. My favourite classes are sorcerer, paladin, druid, cleric, bard, oracle, rogue. In that order.

I absolutely welcome the caster nurf. It is entirely required at high levels.

I personally like the Wizard and the Paladin above all classes, but spellscasters sure come first in general - except perhaps the Tome of Battle (3.5) classes and the Warlord (4e).

After dealing wit 3.X/PF for some time, let's face it, casters need a good amount of non-violent correction ^^

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TheFinish wrote:

For the record, Mark has clarified in another thread that the Divine Evolution allows you to Channel like a Cleric 1/day, much like how Primal gives you 1/day summon nature's ally

So now it's much more balanced, and not eyebrow raising.

"Balanced" in the sense that it's dissapointingly weak along with the other options. I like the idea of being able to build a healer with more than just a cleric, but if I have to devote most of my spells per day to healing to fill that role as a sorcerer, that basically means I'll never try to play a sorcerer healer.

In PF1 the 1/day ability options for things like oracle revelations or rogue tricks were among my least liked class options and I pretty much never chose them.


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I have to wonder if "Evolution" feats are available at low levels as part of a chain where you can evolve further if you want.


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TheFinish wrote:

For the record, Mark has clarified in another thread that the Divine Evolution allows you to Channel like a Cleric 1/day, much like how Primal gives you 1/day summon nature's ally

So now it's much more balanced, and not eyebrow raising.

I see more disappointing than balanced. I think a free spell known each day [or a free skill and spell known] look like a much better option IMO. It look to me that it swung from the strong side to the weak side completely missing the center.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
I have to wonder if "Evolution" feats are available at low levels as part of a chain where you can evolve further if you want.

That would make me feel better about the two 1/day feats.


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Cool.

I dig having base spell list determined by bloodline. (My caveat is that the Oracle remains separate from the Sorcerer. Oracles shouldn't de facto get Sorcerer proficiencies, etc.) The Evolution feats all look cool though for Primal Evolution once daily feels too limited, I'd rather pay spell points.

I don't feel simply using Charisma to boost magic item use via resonance is enough on its own to balance out the differences prepared vs. spontaneous casting. I'm not 100% sure how it would work in practice but I'd kind of like to see Sorcerers get to heighten every sorcerer spell the know instead of just "prepare" two heigtenable spells.

The Angelic, Draconic, Imperial bloodlines especially pique my interest though I'm eager to see them all.

The Demonic bloodline seems like it's trying to be all demons to all sinners. Mechanically, I see elements of blaster, control, and battle caster. Thematically, it needs to make a distinction between abyssal carnage and diabolic temptation. I'd rather see the 2e iterations of the Abyssal and Infernal bloodlines be separate even if I have to wait for one of them.

I'll also echo that there should be new bloodline features after 10th level.


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The Primal and Divine Evolution feats are still effectively an extra 9th level spell slot at the cost of 1 feat if they provide something you want.
That seems generous compared to PF1 feats for spellcasters.


Cantriped wrote:
The Primal and Divine Evolution feats are still effectively an extra 9th level spell slot at the cost of 1 feat if they provide something you want.

That's nifty if you get to a high enough to get 9th level spells: I can't tell you how many years it's been since I've cast one of those. ;)

Cantriped wrote:
That seems generous compared to PF1 feats for spellcasters.

Arcane Discoveries Are pretty good. Immortality has its perks. ;)


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graystone wrote:
Cantriped wrote:
The Primal and Divine Evolution feats are still effectively an extra 9th level spell slot at the cost of 1 feat if they provide something you want.
That's nifty if you get to a high enough to get 9th level spells: I can't tell you how many years it's been since I've cast one of those.

I feel like "one spell slot at your highest level, but it has to be used for a summon/heal/harm spell" is a pretty nice feat.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
graystone wrote:
Cantriped wrote:
The Primal and Divine Evolution feats are still effectively an extra 9th level spell slot at the cost of 1 feat if they provide something you want.
That's nifty if you get to a high enough to get 9th level spells: I can't tell you how many years it's been since I've cast one of those.
I feel like "one spell slot at your highest level, but it has to be used for a summon/heal/harm spell" is a pretty nice feat.

It's not the worst thing in the world but from my experience it's also not a free 9th level spell. My point here was the 9th level part.

So to its relative 'niceness', I much prefer the free known spell. It gives you opportunity to prepare spells you don't use all the time and can be heightened if you want to get multiple levels of the spell [if it has them]. IMO it's so much more useful that the set spells no matter how nice they are.

Plus, I'd rather not see more 1/day abilities that I thought we were moving away from. :(


graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
graystone wrote:
Cantriped wrote:
The Primal and Divine Evolution feats are still effectively an extra 9th level spell slot at the cost of 1 feat if they provide something you want.
That's nifty if you get to a high enough to get 9th level spells: I can't tell you how many years it's been since I've cast one of those.
I feel like "one spell slot at your highest level, but it has to be used for a summon/heal/harm spell" is a pretty nice feat.

It's not the worst thing in the world but from my experience it's also not a free 9th level spell. My point here was the 9th level part.

So to its relative 'niceness', I much prefer the free known spell. It gives you opportunity to prepare spells you don't use all the time and can be heightened if you want to get multiple levels of the spell [if it has them]. IMO it's so much more useful that the set spells no matter how nice they are.

Plus, I'd rather not see more 1/day abilities that I thought we were moving away from. :(

I'l give you that last part. It does make me question why they can't just be powers that use spell points. I guess the answer might be that these are heightened to your highest spell level which is too powerful for powers.

We do still have the channel pool on clerics, though.


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Hmm I guess if the ability is too good they could just cost multiple spell points instead of per day use. isn't it really just another spell slot? its is kind of odd.


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Well, Clerics have a good reason for Channel not costing spell points and instead having its own pool- they wanted to minimize the pressure to convert "stuff you want" into heals by giving a bunch of free heals.

It'd be weird if the sorcerer feat based on a cleric's channel works fundamentally differently. Plus if you're playing an Angelic Blooded Sorcerer specced for healing, then "heals" are "stuff you want" whereas "I picked Cleric" doesn't specify the same level of commitment to healing.

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Cheburn wrote:

@Darkorin, I missed your edits before I posted, and certainly don't want to put words in your mouth; however, I also don't agree that the devs are employing faulty logic here. I suspect, in fact, that they're speaking both from possibilities and from what they saw in internal playtests. That suggests to me that the starting assumptions of your logical chain may not be 100% accurate.

Darkorin wrote:
Thing is, you're ignoring the point that the sorcerer will become the default group-magic-item user of the group, which means that this is a burden he has to take for the whole group.

I see little reason for this to be the case. I expect that almost any group with a sorcerer could also get by with a wizard. That means they don't "need" the extra resonance that a sorcerer brings to the table. I don't expect that a sorcerer will have to act as a "Resonance battery" for other classes in PF2e any more than a wizard had to act as a "buff battery" for other classes in PF1e. If individual players choose to, then one could argue they're bringing a competitive advantage to their groups compared with a wizard.

Assuming that a sorcerer does not "need" to contribute more to communal uses of Resonance than a wizard does (which is dependent on the culture of the individual table), a sorcerer can invest in more items (probably using multiple lower cost items with different abilities) than a wizard. A sorcerer can use those items more times through the course of the day than a wizard. A sorcerer can invest Resonance in more staves than a wizard (potentially Investing in multiple lower level staves than a wizard). A sorcerer can use more scrolls when necessary than a wizard.

TLDR: You are assuming that all or most of a sorcerer's extra resonance will get dumped into the "party pool" and cannot be used for items. I think that while certain groups might want this, it is by no means a guarantee.

I will say, it's also unclear to me what the process for acquiring/purchasing new spells is in PF2e,...

The advantage for a group of having a charisma based spellcaster (not only the sorcerer), is similar to what you will get in PF1 when you have a character with high UMD in the group.

Both have an easier time using more resources than the standard party member, but that doesn't make them indispensable. That can be easily covered by sharing the burden of the extra resonance (PF2), or having the members of main classes in your group.

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Quandary wrote:
Cheburn wrote:
I don't expect that a sorcerer will have to act as a "Resonance battery" for other classes in PF2e any more than a wizard had to act as a "buff battery" for other classes in PF1e.

I think it would be helpful if people spoke it objective terms as to their expectations in this area. As far as I can tell, it's plausible a Sorceror would have around 3 more RP than a low-OK CHA character. With 4 stats/boost, anybody else who wants to can keep up. And CHA starting at 10-12 will advance at 2x the rate per boost up to 16 (or 18?) helping close initial gap, so it doesn't even need to use EVERY stat boost. I just don't see ~3 RP difference as being massive party role determinant. Yet somehow this is being discussed as if Sorceror is some God of Resonance to who entire party will grovel to beg RP from.

I think it is really relevant only at the low levels, but usually, you don't get tons of magic items at low level.

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Excaliburproxy wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Cheburn wrote:
I don't expect that a sorcerer will have to act as a "Resonance battery" for other classes in PF2e any more than a wizard had to act as a "buff battery" for other classes in PF1e.

I think it would be helpful if people spoke it objective terms as to their expectations in this area. As far as I can tell, it's plausible a Sorceror would have around 3 more RP than a low-OK CHA character. With 4 stats/boost, anybody else who wants to can keep up. And CHA starting at 10-12 will advance at 2x the rate per boost up to 16 (or 18?) helping close initial gap. I just don't see ~3 RP difference as being massive party role determinant.

UNRELATED... About the Glutton's Jaw power, I do have to say I didn't realize on my first reading that the +X enhancement / potency per Heighten tier also is increasing the damage dice (up to 5d6 max). It actually clarifies that in the first mention... I wonder if that will be standard style guideline, to clarify that +X potency increases damage dice also? Seems very useful, although Paizo seems inclined to cut back on boiler plate, so....?????

I can definitely see a sorceror taking a turn where they cast a 2 action spell and then bite an enemy at their full BAB (which will be around 2-7 behind a fight boys BAB in all likelihood). I feel like it may fall off in usefulness at higher levels if the sorceror never increases their unarmed proficiency. Maybe they can multiclass monk somehow?

How you calculate the difference in to hit?

Quote:

These jaws grant you an unarmed attack you're trained.

...
They have the finesse trait.

Trained, so 0 modifier at start against the main weapon of the Fighter that will be at expert level. There are good chances that the sorcerer will have a 14 in dexterity against 18 in the main stat for the Fighter.

That is a 3 point difference at first level.
The progression in power seems reasonably close to that of the enhancement of a main weapon, so we can disregard that aspect.
It is highly probable that the sorcerer will raise his dexterity every time at least until he reaches 18, so, actually, the stat gap will be lower until very high level when the rare +2 stat item will enter play.
The fighter proficiency will increase while the sorcerer proficiency will not (barring the existence of feat increasing the combat proficiency granted by spells).
So the difference seems to be 3-5 points, with it being 3-4 for most of the career of the characters (barring feats increasing the to hit of the fighter).

Liberty's Edge

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Darkorin wrote:
No Spontaneous Heightening feat: Any feat increasing the number of spontaneous heightening or permitting any effect similiar. Such feats will probably become tax feats that every sorcerer will take to increase their versatility. If they exist, that probably means that the class need some more work.

You think that making it a class feature (a la "at level x you get 1 extra heightened spell) will be better? I don't think so, because, at the end of the day, it cost exactly the same: 1 enhancement slot of the character.

It being a class ability of a feat make relatively little difference.
The real question is if it is necessary to get more heightened spells or not.

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Tangent101 wrote:

Actually it might be interesting if Sorcerers had a choice as to what abilities they can choose for Bloodline Powers. I mean, what if that Sorcerer doesn't want to have a bite attack? Why not give them something else like one minute of Dark Vision by using a Spell Point?

You can choose a different bloodline is a basic rule for the sorcerer. Do you dislike the bite attack? Chose a bloodline that hasn't it. Making bloodlines modular remove the reason to have them.

I don't want a eidolon like sorcerer that chose a bit of this, a point of that from the shelves.


Yeah a bite attack seems pretty demonic to me. I suppose claws would of also been acceptable.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Yeah a bite attack seems pretty demonic to me. I suppose claws would of also been acceptable.

Demonic seems like a gore attack to me. Give them a reason to have horns. ;)


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I would accept any of those 3 options.

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I'm pretty sure they went bite because it makes the most sense with the Temp HP, which the Sorcerer desperately needs to make a melee build.

Temp HP do an excellent job of making up for their low Base HP, though.

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