Trinkets and Treasures

Monday, June 25, 2018

Wayfinder. Bag of holding. Ring of the ram. Staff of power. Holy avenger.

The magic items you find during your adventures become a part of your story and let you do things beyond the techniques you've mastered and the spells you know. So how do these essentials of the game work in the Pathfinder Playtest?

Magic items are used in three major ways: by investing them, by activating them, or automatically. Invested items are ones you wear that you have to prepare as you don them, after which they work continuously. Activating items follows a system similar to that used for spells. Just as casting a spell requires you to spend actions to supply the somatic, verbal, and material components of the spell, activated items require you to use the Command Activation, Focus Activation, or Operate Activation action, or a combination of multiple actions. A potion requires you to spend an Operate Activation action to drink it. A necklace of fireballs requires you to spend 2 Operate Activation actions to unbind a bead and throw it. Activating a luck blade to reroll an attack just takes a mental nudge with a Focus Activation reaction (though you get to do that only once per day). Automatic activation happens with a small category of items that give their benefit whenever they're used for their normal purpose. A prime example is a sword with the frost property rune, which is always coated with frost and needs only hit a foe to deal extra cold damage.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Resonance

Activating or investing an item costs 1 Resonance Point (RP). You might have heard a bit about this on the Glass Cannon podcast! Resonance is a new resource all characters have that can be used to activate items. Your innate magic item resonance is represented by a number of Resonance Points equal to your level plus your Charisma modifier. This ties back to the Pathfinder First Edition concept of Charisma as the main ability score tied to innate magic, as seen in the Use Magic Device skill and the fact that Charisma is used for spell-like abilities, oracles, sorcerers, and so forth. However, in Pathfinder Second Edition, true scholars of itemcraft *cough*alchemists*cough* might get to use their Intelligence instead.

The idea of resonance stems from the Pathfinder First Edition occultist, who was able to tap into the magical potential of items, and even before that to the idea of resonance between creatures and various magic items, as seen with the resonant powers of wayfinders. We've expanded that concept to apply to everyone. In practical terms, you're really unlikely to run out of Resonance Points unless you're using an absurd number of items, and you're at the greatest risk at low levels. You still have a chance even if your pool is empty, though. You can overspend Resonance Points! If you're at 0 RP, you can attempt to activate or invest an item anyway. You need to attempt a flat check (a d20 roll with no modifiers) against a DC equal to 10 + the number of points you've overspent today. So the first item has a 50% chance of working, and it gets more risky from there.

We expect Resonance Points to be a contentious topic, and we're really curious to see how it plays at your tables. It's one of the more experimental changes to the game, and the playtest process gives us a chance to see it in the wild before committing to it. Here are the advantages we see from a design perspective:

  1. Using items is clear and consistent. Spend the required actions and 1 RP, and you activate or invest your item. If someone else wants to use the same item, you can remove it and let them put it on and invest it themselves.
  2. You have less to track. We get to remove some of the sub-pools that individual items have (such as "10 rounds per day which need not be consecutive" or "5 charges") because we know you have an overall limited resource. There are still some items that can't be used without limit, but they get to be special exceptions rather than being common out of necessity.
  3. It puts the focus on the strongest items. Because you can't activate items indefinitely, your best bet is to use the most RP-efficient item, not the most gp-efficient item. You want a high-level healing wand because you get more healing for your Resonance Point rather than getting a bunch of low-level wands because they're cheap.
  4. Investiture limits what you can wear. That means we don't need to rely heavily on an item slot system, creating more flexibility in what kind of worn items are useful. You'll read more about this on the blog on Friday, when we talk about removing the magic item Christmas tree!

Will those benefits be compelling? Will people prefer this system over the Pathfinder First Edition system? We look forward to finding out!

Want to look at an item to see how this works in practice?

Cloak of Elvenkind Item 10+

Illusion, Invested, Magical

Method of Use worn, cloak; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Focus Activation, [[A]] Operate Activation


This cloak is deep green with a voluminous hood, and is embroidered with gold trim and symbols of significance to the elves. The cloak allows you to cast the ghost sound cantrip as an innate arcane spell. When you draw the hood up over your head (an Interact action), the cloak transforms to match the environment around you and muffles your sounds, giving you an item bonus to Stealth checks. If you activate the cloak, you pull the hood up and are affected by invisibility for 1 minute or until you pull the hood back down, whichever comes first.

Type standard; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

The cloak grants a +3 bonus.

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp

The cloak grants a +5 bonus, and invisibility is 4th level. If you're also wearing greater boots of elvenkind, the greater cloak of elvenkind allows you to Sneak in forest environments even when creatures are currently observing you.

Here's a fairly complex item to show multiple parts of the system at once. The cloak of elvenkind is level 10, and there's also a greater cloak of elvenkind with an item level of 18. In case you missed it in the crafting blog, items have levels now, which indicate the point at which you can craft them (as well as being handy for the GM when making treasure hoards). Method of use indicates that this item is worn and that it's a cloak. A few items have this two-part listing because they're hard to wear multiples of. Multiple cloaks, multiple boots... not practical. Multiple rings or amulets? No problem.

This item is both invested (note the invested trait) and activated (as you can see by the activation entry). Investing the cloak lets you cast ghost sound. You get this benefit as long as the cloak is invested, which means you can cast the spell whenever you want without activating the cloak and therefore without spending more Resonance Points. You can also get an item bonus to Stealth checks from the cloak (+3 or +5 for a greater cloak). Finally, you can activate the cloak as you raise the hood, spending 1 Resonance Point to turn invisible! Certainly not every item has as much going on as a cloak of elvenkind, but several classic items seemed like they needed a little extra special treatment! What do you think? Too much?

How about something simpler?

Floating Shield Item 13

Magical

Price 2,800 gp

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This master-quality light wooden shield (Hardness 6) protects you without requiring you to spend actions each round. When you activate this shield, you can release it from your grip as a part of that action. The shield floats in the air next to you, granting you its bonus automatically, as if you Raised the Shield. Because you're not wielding the shield, you can't use reactions such as Shield Block with the shield.

After 1 minute, the shield drops to the ground, ending its floating effect. While the shield is adjacent to you, you can grasp it with an Interact action, ending its floating effect.

You can hold this and use it just like any other shield. Activating it lets you free up a hand to cause the shield to float, where it protects you without you spending an action! While the floating shield offers far less Hardness than many magic shields of a similar level (some have Hardness up to 18!), it's not meant for Shield Block, and its abilities allow you to use it even with a character who needs both hands for other things.

Now let's look at two special types of items: one revamped classic and one brand-new category!

Staves

We went through several different iterations of staves. They needed to remain a powerful tool for spellcasters, but we also wanted them to appear earlier in the game so you didn't have to wait for most staves to appear at higher levels. Let's see the staff of healing!

Staff of Healing Item 3+

Invested, Magical, Necromancy, Staff

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk 1

Activation Cast a Spell (1 RP)


Made of smooth white wood, this staff is capped at each end with a golden cross adorned with a multitude of ruby cabochons. A staff of healing adds an item bonus to the Hit Points you restore any time you cast the heal spell using your own spell slots, using charges from the staff, or from channel energy.

Type minor; Level 3; Price 60 gp; Maximum Charges 3

The item bonus to heal spells is +1.

  • stabilize (cantrip)
  • heal (level 1)

I've included only the level 3 minor staff of healing here. There are also versions at levels 7, 11, and 15, and they add higher-level heal spells, plus restoration, remove disease, restore senses, and more! A staff is tied to you, which means you have to invest it, unlike most held items. This investiture has two extra benefits. First off, it links the staff to you, preventing anyone else from investing the staff for 24 hours. More importantly, it restores charges to the staff equal to the highest level of spell you can cast. You don't have to expend any spells to do this; it's all part of using your Resonance Points. You'll notice this also means that if you find one of these as a 1st-level character, it will take you longer to recharge it than if you're a higher-level spellcaster. You also get the item bonus to healing as long as you hold the invested staff.

Now how do you cast these spells? Well, you activate the staff as part of casting one of the spells in it (spending 1 RP as usual). Then you have two options: You can either expend charges from the staff equal to the spell's level (1 charge for heal here) or expend one of your own spells of that level or higher. Yeah, your staff essentially lets you spontaneously cast the spells in it!

Trinkets

How about something completely different? One thing we wanted to add was a type of item that was like scrolls for martial characters. Spellcasters use scrolls and everyone uses potions, but how about something special that relies on nonmagical skills? Trinkets were the answer! Our first example was designed specifically for fighters.

Fear Gem Item 4

Consumable, Enchantment, Fear, Magical, Mental, Trinket

Price 11 gp

Method of Use affixed, weapon; Bulk

Activation [[F]] Focus Activation; Trigger You use Intimidating Strike, but haven't rolled for the attack yet.


Dark smoke seems to writhe within this obsidian gem. When you activate the gem, if your Intimidating Strike hits, the target is frightened 2 and flat-footed against your attacks until the end of your next turn. If the attack roll is a critical success, the target is flat-footed against your attacks for 1 minute.

Trinkets all have the consumable trait, meaning they're used up after being activated once. They have the "affixed" method of use, and as this one indicates, it has to be affixed to a weapon. You can activate it with a Focus Activation as a free action when you use the Intimidating Strike action from the fighter feat of the same name. This makes the Intimidating Strike more severe, increasing its effect to frightened 2 instead of frightened 1 and making it especially strong on a critical success.

Now how about a trinket that's less specific?

Vanishing Coin Item 9

Consumable, Illusion, Magical, Trinket

Price 85 gp

Method of Use affixed, armor; Bulk

Activation [[F]] Focus Activation; Trigger You attempt a Stealth check for initiative, but haven't rolled yet.

Requirements You are a master in Stealth.


This copper coin dangles from a leather strip strung through a hole drilled into the coin's center. It's usually tied just below the throat on a suit of armor. Until it is activated, the coin becomes invisible for a few seconds every few minutes, but always at random intervals. When you activate the coin, you gain the benefits of a 2nd-level invisibility spell until the end of your next turn.

Anyone with master proficiency in Stealth can use this trinket by affixing it to her armor. She can turn invisible by activating the coin when she rolls a Stealth check for initiative. Pretty useful in the first round of a fight!

Well, there's a lot to say about magic items, and we'll have more to say on Friday. For now, I'm going to leave you with a short list of some of the new items appearing in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook in addition to the classics.

  • Anklets of alacrity
  • Feather step stone
  • Forge warden
  • Grim trophy
  • Handwraps of mighty fists
  • Oil of weightlessness
  • Persona mask
  • Potency crystal
  • Runestone
  • Spell duelist's wand
  • Third eye
  • Virtuoso's instrument

Tell us what sorts of items you'd like to see in the final rulebook!

Logan Bonner
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Liberty's Edge

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I mostly like the RP mechanics that replace both slots (mostly) and several times/day clauses though these will still exist for class features BTW

I do not like that they restrict the use of consumables, especially at low levels where these are basically a poor character's equivalent to permanent items

I think using consumables should not require spending RP. Wands having charges should suffice IMO

There is apparently a problem with cheap healing items used out of combat. IMO putting the RP clause on all consumables is too restrictive a solution to tackle just this ultra-specific issue


Hmm, i feel like not having a limit on how often you can use the wands and staffs might have lead to other issues, and fully basing everything on the "spell points" seems to be a mess already in conception as we already have exceptions.

On how things got introduced we were given information that we had spell points tied to charisma as a form of resonance... why did you call it "spell points" and not just outright "resonance" and just add "point" after it if it was confusing? Now we have technically two names for the same attribute already. With HP we had just Con mod + class = HP, while spell points is: Cha + Level = Resonance = Spell points, why not stop at Resonance?

In the event of the wand we have now to think about 4 attributes: Your Resonance, your Spell Points (Which is given by Resonance), Item charges, and the Item level. Would it been easier to cut that down to two by just saying Resonance is your pool, and the level is the number of uses? Then we get into the problem that low level wands have too few uses, and late game wands just scale out or propotions. And just basing wand usage on Resonance we fall into the latter event where characters just scale out of propotions and spell slots is not even needed because you just "auto-attack" with your wand of fireballs.

If you play Cleric you have to tally these: HP, Spell-points, Heal/Harm uses, Wand Charges (Up to multiple), Consumables (Up to multiple) and maybe ammo, as i consider that as a important difference to merely "consumable", and Spell Slots.

From its PF1 counterpart it remove: Channeling uses, Domain power uses (up to 4), and magic item x/day uses. However the Heal/Harm uses is technically channels... so we only remove the domain uses and the optional items?

I might be unfair using the Cleric here as its a class of exceptions, and i understand why they would have a pool of heals as to not waste precious spell-slots to be a healbot. Tying heals/harms to spell-points would just come around to the problem at high level where a cleric could in essence just burn his entire pool just on heals later on at max heighten it would just move the CLW issue from a item to a class. Now the spell points is tied to Items and Domain abilities, and can use these abilities freely without holding back to save for heals, or allowing heals to scale too highly in the end.

TL;DR - Resonance is a mess, but i see what they are trying and its not easy.


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Kalindlara wrote:
OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
I don't want to have to have my characters have a relationship with their magical items.
I vehemently disagree. In fact, if the first PF2 APs don't feature an intelligent holy avenger with which my paladin can share a tender, chaste romance, this entire exercise will have all been for naught.

Sure, you can, but I'm against it being a necessity for all characters with certain items. You have to invest some of them. I don't want to have to. Sure, if I'm an Occultist or playing FrodoExpy in Miggle Earp, but most of the time, mostly I just want to play my character and not get extra involved in my items. Mostly.

I like items. Plenty of my characters name their mundane weapons. I wrote the Gauntlet Witch archetype for Kobold Quarterly and a score of racial variants each with their own relationship to their semi-sentient handwear. I love Wayne Reynolds over encumbered illustration style. But I don't want it for everyone.


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Malk_Content wrote:
OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:


I don't want to have to have my characters have a relationship with their magical items.
What?

See my comment in my previous post for an explanation.

Liberty's Edge

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OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
Sure, you can, but I'm against it being a necessity for all characters with certain items.

Nothing about the Resonance system necessitates any such relationship beyond the fact that you own the item and want to use it.


MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like "how does a party with or without a cleric, manage to keep not-dead or incapacitated throughout their career" is going to be a major question worth considering throughout the playtest since there are multiple systems at play here, not just resonance (which one's alchemical items and skill feats will not interact with.)
Honestly, I think managing your resources to make that happen is a lot more fun. It also makes the healing you get as a cleric more useful and cool since you don't get it for free after every fight.

I dislike having to manage 1 thing into about 5 different things. You don't split up your HP into your arms and legs do you?

You could also actually make a cleric and... Not get CLW wands?

That's crazy talk. The math and community says to always pick them up, horde them, never actually DO anything in combat that is actually WORTH more than CLW wand charges because you're just wasting resources at that point.

Yeah no, I'm done arguing here. This line of thinking is why every Familiar guide reads "GET one that uses WANDS", every spell list the same bloody collection, and dumping CHA to 6 if NOT lower seems to a given.

I'll see how to break this system, turn around to write up the playtest info, and then just remove it. Because I can do that. Much like DM's can remove Leadership, CLW wands, Spells, and Summoners.

Wait one of these things is not like the other. One of these things never got touched by the community for some reason even though it was COMPLAINED to heck and back it seems.

I thought you were done arguing when you made this same post yesterday?

Liberty's Edge

I now want to try and recreate my PFS character that mostly went by thanks to an immoderate use of wands and other consumables

He was fun to play and had a wide variety of possible actions even if he had neither good damage output nor any mastery of the mystical arts :-P

I hope PF2 still allows for this kind of unoptimized build and does not automatically turn all characters into ultra-efficient heroes


Malk_Content wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like "how does a party with or without a cleric, manage to keep not-dead or incapacitated throughout their career" is going to be a major question worth considering throughout the playtest since there are multiple systems at play here, not just resonance (which one's alchemical items and skill feats will not interact with.)
Honestly, I think managing your resources to make that happen is a lot more fun. It also makes the healing you get as a cleric more useful and cool since you don't get it for free after every fight.

I dislike having to manage 1 thing into about 5 different things. You don't split up your HP into your arms and legs do you?

You could also actually make a cleric and... Not get CLW wands?

That's crazy talk. The math and community says to always pick them up, horde them, never actually DO anything in combat that is actually WORTH more than CLW wand charges because you're just wasting resources at that point.

Yeah no, I'm done arguing here. This line of thinking is why every Familiar guide reads "GET one that uses WANDS", every spell list the same bloody collection, and dumping CHA to 6 if NOT lower seems to a given.

I'll see how to break this system, turn around to write up the playtest info, and then just remove it. Because I can do that. Much like DM's can remove Leadership, CLW wands, Spells, and Summoners.

Wait one of these things is not like the other. One of these things never got touched by the community for some reason even though it was COMPLAINED to heck and back it seems.

I thought you were done arguing when you made this same post yesterday?

Different thread, same topic and people. I suppose I was mad to think I could continue the idea here then.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
Sure, you can, but I'm against it being a necessity for all characters with certain items.
Nothing about the Resonance system necessitates any such relationship beyond the fact that you own the item and want to use it.

Well, let's clarify what I mean by how I understand the system and what I'm characterising as a relationship.

If I want certain items to work for me throughout the coming day, I need to invest them in the morning - each game morning I need to take time to invest those items I want to use. Choose, dedicate, use. I need to work out which invested items are using Resonance Points. Choose, dedicate, mark off points, calculate remaining points, use.

Seems like a relationship of more than just: "I'm wearing this and this and using this. Currently."

* Is tacit ownership a thing? More as a thought exercise than anything else. Can you invest an item you stole/came by yesterday. After sleeping with it/resting/24 hrs have passed - is it "yours"? Doesn't sound like the basis for defining healthy relationships.


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Investing in this context is little more than laying out your magic items and selecting which ones you want to use for the day. It's the montage before a great battle where the hero stands before his warchest and chooses which weapon to use for the upcoming battle, his hand lingering over the automatic rifle/waraxe before reaching for the revolver/longsword.

You don't need to name your sword Bessy or write sonnets to it (although some do).

I'm no fan of resonance or the investing mechanic. I would hope that investing can happen multiple times a day so you can actually disarm an enemy of his weapon and then use it against him.

But trying to say it enforces some sort of roleplay onto you seems a bit of a stretch.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:

Well, let's clarify what I mean by how I understand the system and what I'm characterising as a relationship.

If I want certain items to work for me throughout the coming day, I need to invest them in the morning - each game morning I need to take time to invest those items I want to use. Choose, dedicate, use. I need to work out which invested items are using Resonance Points. Choose, dedicate, mark off points, calculate remaining points, use.

I don't think it takes even an action to spend the Resonance, and it certainly doesn't take more than a round, so if by 'time' you mean 'less than a minute for all my items', then yes, this is all more or less true, or at least a valid way to do things.

Though you certainly don't have to do it at the beginning of the day or anything. You can do it whenever you like. Including with new items the instant you acquire them and put them on.

OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
Seems like a relationship of more than just: "I'm wearing this and this and using this. Currently."

No more than the 'You must wear this 24 hours before the bonus becomes permanent' stuff, which it replaces. Indeed, less than that since you can more easily swap out items or attune to them instantly if you like.

OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
* Is tacit ownership a thing? More as a thought exercise than anything else. Can you invest an item you stole/came by yesterday. After sleeping with it/resting/24 hrs have passed - is it "yours"? Doesn't sound like the basis for defining healthy relationships.

You can invest in an item as soon as you put it on. That's been made very explicit. Multiple people can probably be invested in the same item at the same time, too, there's just no cost break and only the one wearing it gets bonuses/can use it (making this usually not a great strategy). That last is a tad speculative, but consistent with all rules and implications we've heard talked about.

It's not a 'relationship' in any meaningful sense. It's a decision to invest some of your attention/focus/mystical energy into using this item today.

Liberty's Edge

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John Lynch 106 wrote:
I'm no fan of resonance or the investing mechanic. I would hope that investing can happen multiple times a day so you can actually disarm an enemy of his weapon and then use it against him.

I'm pretty sure you can do this with an Invested Item, but I'm positive you can do it with a weapon since they aren't Invested. They're a Wielded item, and those cost no Resonance to simply pick up and use.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
I'm no fan of resonance or the investing mechanic. I would hope that investing can happen multiple times a day so you can actually disarm an enemy of his weapon and then use it against him.
I'm pretty sure you can do this with an Invested Item, but I'm positive you can do it with a weapon since they aren't Invested. They're a Wielded item, and those cost no Resonance to simply pick up and use.

Don't they cost Resonance to actully Activate though? Like sure that flaming sword you can pick up and use but if it can shoot a fire ball that takes a point? Or is this old info I'm working with?

Feel like we need a full fledged Magic weapon/armor Blog rather than it mixed in elsewhere. Wait did we get one already and I'm too tired to recall?


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I'm not worried about enforced roleplay, though now you mention it it does become irritating. I don't want to have my character forced to invedt/focus/pour mystical energy into magic items. That is a specific trope. And Charisma shouldn't be the only font of that energy. I'm sure it won't be, but even as the generic source it feels forced and arbitrary. Some design decisions sound elegant, but are feeling like they are being shoehorned to fit ideas and voncepts.

I'm just not wanting to have to do anything to get my items to work for me. It isn't a big deal, but it is an added amount of thought and a subsystem I'm completely uninterested in.

If it's popular, and seems to work - fine. I'll come around if it is a requirement. I'd just rather it not be for all characters. Except the itemless I guess.

Thanks for the blarification on Weapons/wielding DMW, though that feels illogical and arbitrary - all or nothing doesn't seem to apply. I'm sure these are all finely granulated design decisions based around non-slots, WBL, armor/wearing vs weapons/wielding and other factors that have gone through internal playtests before we even heard about PF2. Which is a good thing.

Liberty's Edge

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MerlinCross wrote:
Don't they cost Resonance to actully Activate though? Like sure that flaming sword you can pick up and use but if it can shoot a fire ball that takes a point? Or is this old info I'm working with?

The extra fire damage from flaming wouldn't cost Resonance, but shooting a fireball would, yes. But it'd be one Resonance per fireball, no need to attune anything.

MerlinCross wrote:
Feel like we need a full fledged Magic weapon/armor Blog rather than it mixed in elsewhere. Wait did we get one already and I'm too tired to recall?

There hasn't been one as of yet. The Friday Blog might scratch that itch somewhat, though.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Don't they cost Resonance to actully Activate though? Like sure that flaming sword you can pick up and use but if it can shoot a fire ball that takes a point? Or is this old info I'm working with?

The extra fire damage from flaming wouldn't cost Resonance, but shooting a fireball would, yes. But it'd be one Resonance per fireball, no need to attune anything.

MerlinCross wrote:
Feel like we need a full fledged Magic weapon/armor Blog rather than it mixed in elsewhere. Wait did we get one already and I'm too tired to recall?
There hasn't been one as of yet. The Friday Blog might scratch that itch somewhat, though.

It still feels werid to say that the characters of the setting have to attune to the energies of an item in order to bring for the magic/enchantments woven to them.

Oh Flaming sword? That's fiiiiiiine.

Probably balance so you aren't charged so much but that seems odd to me. And this is coming from someone that dislikes the system. Feels odd to have exceptions.

I will say I do look forward to seeing what the Friday blog is. Even if it's not that day, getting more info about both would be nice.

Liberty's Edge

OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
I'm not worried about enforced roleplay, though now you mention it it does become irritating. I don't want to have my character forced to invedt/focus/pour mystical energy into magic items. That is a specific trope.

So is having lots of different magical items at all. Indeed, the two almost always go together in fiction, IME. I can think of almost no fictional characters with more than one or two magic items who don't 'pour energy into them' in some form (even just a simple 'I can't keep an unlimited number of these prepared at once').

OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
And Charisma shouldn't be the only font of that energy. I'm sure it won't be, but even as the generic source it feels forced and arbitrary. Some design decisions sound elegant, but are feeling like they are being shoehorned to fit ideas and voncepts.

IMO, this decision makes perfect sense. Charisma has always been the stat for using magic items and innate magic (UMD used it, spell like abilities from race used it, all that stuff).

Having it be anything else for most people would actually be a much bigger lore change than putting it in Charisma is.

OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
I'm just not wanting to have to do anything to get my items to work for me. It isn't a big deal, but it is an added amount of thought and a subsystem I'm completely uninterested in.

I don't think you are doing anything IC. As far as I can tell, spending Resonance is not an action, nor is Investing an item. It's something the character decides and it just happens.

OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
If it's popular, and seems to work - fine. I'll come around if it is a requirement. I'd just rather it not be for all characters. Except the itemless I guess.

We actually don't know it applies to Armor either (and indications are it doesn't). And Magic Weapons and Armor are the only two really necessary items. So most people don't have to interact with this system all that much except for consumables.

OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
Thanks for the blarification on Weapons/wielding DMW, though that feels illogical and arbitrary - all or nothing doesn't seem to apply. I'm sure these are all finely granulated design decisions based around non-slots, WBL, armor/wearing vs weapons/wielding and other factors that have gone through internal playtests before we even heard about PF2. Which is a good thing.

It is. I'm interested in seeing how the system works in play.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can do this with an Invested Item, but I'm positive you can do it with a weapon since they aren't Invested. They're a Wielded item, and those cost no Resonance to simply pick up and use.

That's right. I keep forgetting weapons are exempt from resonance. I understand the logic is they're exempt because ????? I don't actually get why they are except martials would be too crippled if they weren't (which is kind of a strong indicator that the system aint so great to begin with). But regardless, replace disarming a foe's sword to taking his shield from his still warm corpse.

MerlinCross wrote:
Oh Flaming sword? That's fiiiiiiine.

Except when it's not of course. Between this and the runes thingy that they're reflavouring magical enchantments to become (or is that just for armor?) I'm not really a fan of the magic item system we seem to be getting lumped with in PF2. And that's me not being a fan. I'm not representing my group's concerns, I'm speaking personally this time.

I also disliked Unchained's stab at inherent bonuses (despite loving the concept of inherent bonuses) because it required investing in specific magic items. I guess we can see where they got the idea from or what the idea evolved into. Still not a fan though.


I feel the 'Activation' entry on the magic item is a waste of space (at least where it is). I think I'd rather see the actions required listed directly with the effect that spending that action does. For instance, if the various effects the item might provide are placed directly with the method of obtaining or triggering that effect, it makes parsing the item in actual play a bit quicker.

Quote:

----------------------------------------------------------

CLOAK OF ELVENKIND --- ITEM 10+
llusion, Invested, Magical

Method of Use worn, cloak; Bulk L

This cloak is deep green with a voluminous hood, and is embroidered with gold trim and symbols of significance to the elves.

Invested You can cast the ghost sound cantrip as an innate arcane spell.

[[A]] Interact You draw the hood up over your head, the cloak transforms to match the environment around you and muffles your sounds, giving you an +3 item bonus to Stealth checks.

[[A]] Focus Activation + [[A]] Operate Activation If you activate the cloak, you pull the hood up and are affected by invisibility for 1 minute or until you pull the hood back down, whichever comes first.

Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

Variant greater

The stealth bonus is +5, and invisibility is 4th level. If you're also wearing greater boots of elvenkind, the greater cloak of elvenkind allows you to Sneak in forest environments even when creatures are currently observing you.

Level 18; Price 24,000 gp
----------------------------------------------------------

I do think that the development of icons for action types will end up streamlining this presentation further.

I've also included the +3 stealth in the description for the 'standard' item above, and make the 'greater' variant just that - a variant, listing what is different from standard.


A tone of sarcasm is lost in text.

The "Flaming sword? That fiiiiiine" was more a stab at the system when combined with the other part.

Cloak made by elves to improve ones abilities at stealth and scouting? 1 Resonance.

Sword that either emits flames all the time or is engulfed in fire when swung? No that's free.

To me that just feels off. But that's some kind of balance work around I suppose.


i don't know I can see it. you pick up the flaming sword and attack things with firey steel sure buts its a very external effect. The cloak has more of an effect on you personally. You wear it so its closer. It makes you invisible and give you bonuses on stealth which makes me feel like the item is a bit more internal.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Issues and comments about Resonance:

1) I see the desire to make Charisma not a dump stat by tying it to Resonance and I agree with the ends, but not the means.

A better way to make players not dump Charisma would be to make it more useful via in choices and game effects that expand player agency. What about adding a social combat system to Pathfinder that is as flexible and nuanced as the mundane combat system? With different attacks, defenses and options with varying resource costs, such a social combat system would be rewarding to play.

2) I agree that there needs to be some boundaries on how much magic a player can use to rein in the absurdity of 12 cloaks, 11 helms, 10 belts ... and a Phoenix in a Treant sort of equipment loadouts and the monstrous complexity and degenerate emergent effects that much swag brings to combat.

Players do deserve options, but when the game table is sagging under the weight of their amended character sheets and everyone suffers from analysis paralysis, it's too much. Yes, the complexity pain point here is very player and table dependent so there should be some guideline in the GM Handbook allowing for house rule Resonance calibration, like the ability score starting point buy limits can be adjusted game reasons.

3) I like the idea of some sort of mechanical limit to the magic equipment and gold piece limits are not getting the job done. However, Resonance is very Gamist in feel which I don't like -- I prefer Simulationism respecting Narrativism as long as Gamism doesn't suffer. But the Resonance Limit will need a boatload of game play, analysis and feedback to dial in, so please don't deploy it half-baked.

To that end, because it will take considerable effort to calibrate Resonance, I hope the designers have understudy game rules to deploy if the new starring rules flub it.

4) But the thing that really irritates me as a Purple Prose encrusted Wordsmith of Lovecraftian non-Euclidian perspective is that the word Resonance is a semantically bad word choice to describe the magic item limit. Resonance means positively reinforcing, but the rule concept is inherently a negative feedback loop! A better word would be Dissonance.


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I think flavor wise I'd have a flaming sword extinguish when dropped, and picking it up to use makes one invest in it to cause it to reignite... definitely see it requiring resonance to do so. I would recommend that once invested in an item that day, it can be dropped and picked up and 'reinvested' as a free action for no RP, otherwise disarming would burn through RP.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
i don't know I can see it. you pick up the flaming sword and attack things with firey steel sure buts its a very external effect. The cloak has more of an effect on you personally. You wear it so its closer. It makes you invisible and give you bonuses on stealth which makes me feel like the item is a bit more internal.

I suppose but we could get into arguments about what is external and internal/personal pretty quick.

I will however say this is less complaint/argument than other issues. More a metal/image hang up.

Liberty's Edge

John Lynch 106 wrote:
That's right. I keep forgetting weapons are exempt from resonance. I understand the logic is they're exempt because ????? I don't actually get why they are except martials would be too crippled if they weren't (which is kind of a strong indicator that the system aint so great to begin with). But regardless, replace disarming a foe's sword to taking his shield from his still warm corpse.

Actually, evidence suggests shields are not Invested either (the one in the Blog above above certainly isn't). Armor also probably isn't.

Really, Investment is looking like it's for worn items only (and apparently Staffs). Rings, Amulets, Belts, Gloves...that sort of thing. It's pretty specific in some ways.


Rather than making weapons, shields and armour free, why not instead give more martial characters bonus resonance? - generally in line with when 9th level casters gain a new level of spells.

The thematic reasoning being that everyone is gaining resonance as they gain experience, but that spell casters permanently invest it in learning more powerful spells.

Spells then are effectively the weapons, armours and other items that the spell casters are spending resonance on wielding.

This would even work for gishes and half casters; they'd gain a mixture of spell levels and resonance.

Edit: I did consider suggesting giving everyone bonus resonance and that casters spend resonance on spell slots, but in my experience people enjoy gaining things more than they enjoy loosing things.


Ramanujan wrote:

Rather than making weapons, shields and armour free, why not instead give more martial characters bonus resonance? - generally in line with when 9th level casters gain a new level of spells.

The thematic reasoning being that everyone is gaining resonance as they gain experience, but that spell casters permanently invest it in learning more powerful spells.

Spells then are effectively the weapons, armours and other items that the spell casters are spending resonance on wielding.

This would even work for gishes and half casters; they'd gain a mixture of spell levels and resonance.

Hmm Eh its not terrible. In fact only down side I see is if your want to carry and use multiple weapons.


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Quandary wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
I'm pretty sure any attempt at overspending Resonance increase the DC by 1, not just succesful ones...
Thanks for adding to the topic, I basically am going off what I read on the Blog and Forum here, since I don't "do" podcasts (certainly not to learn tidbits of RPG rules, fortunately I don't think Paizo is planning to release 2nd Edition Core Rules as a Books on Tape/Podcast). I read the blog as "you try to "overspend" to activate item -> you fail roll, so you don't overspend and activate item, so DC doesn't change" but anyways... Still strange basically nobody has discussed this so far, but thanks for the update.

No problem. To be honest the stuff about what happens when you fumble a check to overspend Resonance should be in the blog, since it's the primary reason you wouldn't want to do it. Maybe it got changed, which is why it isn't here. Or maybe they thought it wasn't important even though it is extremely important.

It also doesn't mention that consumables are consumed regardless of success. So the potion/scroll/wand charge is expended even if you fail. Now, for a wand charge this isn't as much of a problem but for the other two it's terrible. But, again, this might have been changed, but we won't know until the books hit (or a Dev comes in here to confirm).


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Ramanujan wrote:

Rather than making weapons, shields and armour free, why not instead give more martial characters bonus resonance? - generally in line with when 9th level casters gain a new level of spells.

The thematic reasoning being that everyone is gaining resonance as they gain experience, but that spell casters permanently invest it in learning more powerful spells.

Spells then are effectively the weapons, armours and other items that the spell casters are spending resonance on wielding.

This would even work for gishes and half casters; they'd gain a mixture of spell levels and resonance.

Hmm Eh its not terrible. In fact only down side I see is if your want to carry and use multiple weapons.

Good point.

Might be able to fix that by allowing characters to regain invested resonance if they want to swap to a different item?

E.g. [edited] characters can de-invest in items as a free action to regain the resonance, but the items become effectively non-magical or less-magical versions of themselves.

Alternatively, given how powerful spells are, gaining more than one point of resonance per spell level might be fair. I think I prefer the ability to regain resonance though.


I think the fact that some people might want to use multiple weapons is probably the main reason it doesn't cost resonance to use them. I think staff do just because you get a passive bonus from having the staff that +1 to healing which I imagine will be a thing we see in a lot if not all staffs. (not all healing of course)


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I think the fact that some people might want to use multiple weapons is probably the main reason it doesn't cost resonance to use them. I think staff do just because you get a passive bonus from having the staff that +1 to healing which I imagine will be a thing we see in a lot if not all staffs. (not all healing of course)

Or ... how about making weapons/armour/shields costing no resonance an ability provided as part of the benefits of trained proficiency in those items?

This then would make that lack of cost a function of that characters abilities and expertise, rather than something innately different about weapons.

Edit: Eh, maybe that's just too much to remember, for those rare occasions you use a magical weapon you aren't proficient in.

Edit 2: Unless you could also become trained in using magical devices of certain types...[this would only allow characters to invest for free, not alter activated costs]

For example, investing in a divine symbol that provided some protective benefits could be free for someone trained in the divine skill, but any of the item's activated costs would still apply.

Liberty's Edge

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I hope there is some way my PC can convince the Coin that he is a master in Stealth, like UMD did :-D


Ramanujan wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
I think the fact that some people might want to use multiple weapons is probably the main reason it doesn't cost resonance to use them. I think staff do just because you get a passive bonus from having the staff that +1 to healing which I imagine will be a thing we see in a lot if not all staffs. (not all healing of course)

Or ... how about making weapons/armour/shields costing no resonance an ability provided as part of the benefits of trained proficiency in those items?

This then would make that lack of cost a function of that characters abilities and expertise, rather than something innately different about weapons.

Edit: Eh, maybe that's just too much to remember, for those rare occasions you use a magical weapon you aren't proficient in.

Edit 2: Unless you could also become trained in using magical devices of certain types...[this would only allow characters to invest for free, not alter activated costs]

For example, investing in a divine symbol that provided some protective benefits could be free for someone trained in the divine skill, but any of the item's activated costs would still apply.

That is interesting but I feel like Its becoming more and more complicated.

From what I read the people that have a problem with weapons not costing Res thinks its a problem for RP descriptor reasons so my thought is just handle it in the descriptions of how it works. I mean where talking magic it wouldn't be the first time D&D has said it works that way because that's how the magic works.

Its hard to explain but the way I'm thinking of it is if the item is giving you some sort of magical bonus its giving you a boon for some of its magic while with a weapon its all the sword being sharp and increasing the impact of its swing etc. Its not necessarily bestowing better combat abilities to you as much as just being a sharper meaner beat stick, but really That is really all about the description of the magic in use

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
That's right. I keep forgetting weapons are exempt from resonance. I understand the logic is they're exempt because ????? I don't actually get why they are except martials would be too crippled if they weren't (which is kind of a strong indicator that the system aint so great to begin with). But regardless, replace disarming a foe's sword to taking his shield from his still warm corpse.

Actually, evidence suggests shields are not Invested either (the one in the Blog above above certainly isn't). Armor also probably isn't.

Really, Investment is looking like it's for worn items only (and apparently Staffs). Rings, Amulets, Belts, Gloves...that sort of thing. It's pretty specific in some ways.

I’m pretty sure armor is invested, DMW.


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Has it occurred to anyone before now that wearing an item for 24 hours straight is a very difficult (and sometimes unsanitary) thing to do?

I don't know why it never occurred to me before now, but I have this ludicrous image of a cleric wearing their headband to bed, or to eat breakfast, or in the bathtub, or while having sex, NEVER taking it off because they're afraid of waiting another 24 hours to get their permanent bonuses back. :)


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I will playtest these rules - I may even come to like the system, but from all evidence presented this really seems like a whole lot of rules and system for something that could be solved by simply saying 'you can no longer buy magic items'.


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Ckorik wrote:

I will playtest these rules - I may even come to like the system, but from all evidence presented this really seems like a whole lot of rules and system for something that could be solved by simply saying 'you can no longer buy magic items'.

I think you would also have to say you can no longer craft magic items as well. Which a lot of people like to do.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The more and more I think about it, the more I like my proposal to eliminate all Resonance costs from consumables, but double down on permanent items by having them scale up their effects based on resonance invested. If you don't want to decouple powerful items so entirely from wealth, there could also be a system in place of upgrading an item's *capacity* to be invested with Resonance. Again, less that last clause, this is how Occultist 'Focus' worked. You'd have passive abilities that worked based on how much Resonance had been invested, and remained active as long as any Resonance remained invested, and then active ability which required spending Resonance. It probably increases the front end of work on designing magic items, admittedly, with a need to balance how many points causes the scaling effects to kick in and what, if anything, 'in-between' points can be spent on. But among other things, done right, it gives a nice design space for letting players have a powerful item early on without being able to use it to an unbalanced potential.

Meanwhile, with perhaps some necessary rejiggering of costs, most consumables should be perfectly balanced on the fact that they have inherently limited usages. Staves may actually work pretty well as written up here, though maybe eliminate the resonance cost after they're invested--or keep it, but only for people who don't have actual spell levels for their resonance to add charges to the staff. Wands though, probably need to be something entirely different from '50 scrolls in one' to balance out right.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ramanujan wrote:

Rather than making weapons, shields and armour free, why not instead give more martial characters bonus resonance? - generally in line with when 9th level casters gain a new level of spells.

The thematic reasoning being that everyone is gaining resonance as they gain experience, but that spell casters permanently invest it in learning more powerful spells.

Spells then are effectively the weapons, armours and other items that the spell casters are spending resonance on wielding.

This would even work for gishes and half casters; they'd gain a mixture of spell levels and resonance.

Edit: I did consider suggesting giving everyone bonus resonance and that casters spend resonance on spell slots, but in my experience people enjoy gaining things more than they enjoy loosing things.

This is an interesting consideration.

Why do different classes get different quantities of skill proficiencies? Because some classes prioritize Int and some classes prioritize using skills.

Why not apply the same development to resonance?

Does it make sense for the Sorcerer to be much better at using magical items than a Wizard? Why not have each class have a "Resonance: X+Cha mod+level."

This way fighters and rogues (who will need more resonance than paladins) can get it with minimal fuss. If this is the case then it would be easier to be more consistent with having all magical items use resonance to wear.

There really isn't stat dumping in the new attribute system and a character should be investing in charisma because they want their character to be socially competent, not to be able to drink one more potion a day.


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WatersLethe wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

Here's an idea for the gm whos are worried that it's harder for parties to heal back up after combat now and that this worsens the 15 minute adventuring day.

If you automatically heal up your party after a fight to full health, that way there's real danger in combat but the day can continue, would that help out instead.

Maybe reduce their resonance by a bit in exchange instead or leave it as is?

I'm genuinely curious how this would work out.

Personally, I'd be fine with a healing methodology that directly converts gold into HP.

Using up medkit supplies, charges on wands, scrolls, or whatever.

With wands of CLW that worked out to 15 gp per 5.5 hp, or ~3 gp per HP. I don't care if this is trivial at high levels. It's not important to me that the cost of getting bandaged up scales with your personal power. In fact, if the cost per HP of healing goes up as you level without an adequate reason, I would be annoyed.

At low levels, taking a beating can put a hurt on your coin purse, but at high levels, when kingdoms and planets are at stake, it's not a big concern. I'm okay with that.

To me the issue with clw, being used at all levels is it seems kind of silly for high level characters with access to more powerful healing spells, use the most frugal things ever. It'd be like a millionaire not tipping at a restaurant to save money.

In pf1 with the way the magic item economy was it made sense because it was a ridiculous price for such things, but in pf2 I'm hoping it's more reasonably priced so that it's viable. As for an adequate reason, your using more advanced healing services, thus it costs more money.

I'm not saying it should be a significant portion of wbl, I'm saying using clw from 1-20 kinda ruins the setting.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

One thing that I would love to see clarified from the devs, if you crit fail a resonance check to exceed your limit, do your invested items turn off? Several posters have been assuming that. I've been assuming they keep working (but you wouldn't be able to attempt activations of them). If you lose your "permanent" bonuses from pushing your luck on a consumable that seem especially punitive.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
willuwontu wrote:


To me the issue with clw, being used at all levels is it seems kind of silly for high level characters with access to more powerful healing spells, use the most frugal things ever. It'd be like a millionaire not tipping at a restaurant to save money.

In pf1 with the way the magic item economy was it made sense because it was a ridiculous price for such things, but in pf2 I'm hoping it's more reasonably priced so that it's viable. As for an adequate reason, your using more advanced healing services, thus it costs more money.

I'm not saying it should be a significant portion of wbl, I'm saying using clw from 1-20 kinda ruins the setting.

Wouldn't it be more like a millionaire tipping the same amount they tipped when they were a thousandaire? Even real life millionaire's don't always tip 100%. I get what you're saying, but it rubs me the wrong way when everything has to level up with you.

It never made sense to me in MMOs that you had to buy new food and potions when you get to a new zone because the old ones don't cut it anymore. I think 1 HP should be 1 HP regardless of level, and that it's okay that it always costs the same. You have to spend more in total because you have higher max HP, and the price to patch up as a percentage of your total wealth falls.

If getting adequate healing services just keeps going up in price, the players are going to start feeling ripped off and that's when they start doing things like hiring people to be resonance batteries.


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WatersLethe wrote:
willuwontu wrote:


To me the issue with clw, being used at all levels is it seems kind of silly for high level characters with access to more powerful healing spells, use the most frugal things ever. It'd be like a millionaire not tipping at a restaurant to save money.

In pf1 with the way the magic item economy was it made sense because it was a ridiculous price for such things, but in pf2 I'm hoping it's more reasonably priced so that it's viable. As for an adequate reason, your using more advanced healing services, thus it costs more money.

I'm not saying it should be a significant portion of wbl, I'm saying using clw from 1-20 kinda ruins the setting.

Wouldn't it be more like a millionaire tipping the same amount they tipped when they were a thousandaire? Even real life millionaire's don't always tip 100%. I get what you're saying, but it rubs me the wrong way when everything has to level up with you.

It never made sense to me in MMOs that you had to buy new food and potions when you get to a new zone because the old ones don't cut it anymore. I think 1 HP should be 1 HP regardless of level, and that it's okay that it always costs the same. You have to spend more in total because you have higher max HP, and the price to patch up as a percentage of your total wealth falls.

If getting adequate healing services just keeps going up in price, the players are going to start feeling ripped off and that's when they start doing things like hiring people to be resonance batteries.

Agree on all points

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
NielsenE wrote:
One thing that I would love to see clarified from the devs, if you crit fail a resonance check to exceed your limit, do your invested items turn off? Several posters have been assuming that. I've been assuming they keep working (but you wouldn't be able to attempt activations of them). If you lose your "permanent" bonuses from pushing your luck on a consumable that seem especially punitive.

Pretty sure you are right. Items that have already been invested in continue to function, you just can't try to overspend again until you rest.

I'd have to dig back through Mark's comments on the resonance threads to check, though.

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