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Well after I successfully ended one disagreement with rock-paper-scissors, we decided it was no longer a good idea to settle things with rock-paper-scissors...Successfully avoided throwing each other out of windows over design disputes.Dispute resolution via defenestration is always a risk with creative collaboration.
I'm assuming you fine folks at Paizo resolved these things far more maturely...
Rock-paper-scissors design dispute was best design dispute.
HYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYPE.
the Pactworld cruisers remind me a bit of the Earth Alliance capital ships in Babylon 5.
You know that the Pactworlds have a standardized armada, and that those ships are what's represented in the cover art?
Where did they reveal that?
If that is the Vesk from the blog preview... isn't she a Mechanic? Which would also explain why her plasma axe looks like it has so many saftey guards. It isn't a weapon, it is some kind of tool?
Which might make the Ysoki the Soldier!
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If that is the Vesk from the blog preview... isn't she a Mechanic? Which would also explain why her plasma axe looks like it has so many saftey guards. It isn't a weapon, it is some kind of tool?
Which might make the Ysoki the Soldier!
Different vesk, this one was shown at GAMA trade show.
On the 560 to 528 decrease the price went up to 59.99 so what are we getting quality wise for the price increase of 59.99 at 528 versus Pathfinder 49.99 576. Thicker pages? Better binding ect.
Inflation can account for most of that. Prices go up over time, and it's been about a decade. Paizo also has a bafflingly good deal on the PDF versions of major books.
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At this point I think it's obvious that this is Guardians of the Galaxy RPG.
I also suspect the ysoki iconic is going to be a full-on pyromaniac, probably with a background involving clearing out/repelling a xenomorph infestation. As a goblin, I eagerly await flamethrower-related combat styles and archetypes... and the complementary/necessary bacta-healer alchemist archetype.
Hmmm, should flamethrower wielders and pyrokineticists get a bonus to Diplomacy and fascinate checks against goblins?
I agree with the points made inflation and development cost. I would point out that when Pathfinder first came out the company/Paizo was not as big as they are now. They have the huge hit in Pathfinder and established relationships with printers and better understanding of the staff needed to get a major rpg to market. Despite that Pathfinder rpg was 576 for 49.99 and continues to be that price to Paizo's credit.
Starfinder is 528 for 59.99 people are going to want to know why that is. They may say something like inflation and development should be offset by the experience they have with Pathfinder. If anything it maybe should have been Pathfinder 528 for 59.99 and Starfinder for 49.99 and 576. That being said I am still going to get 3 copies.
I think this could be compounded if something feels left out of the rules such as ground vehicle weapons and combat. It may be said that the 10 to 12 pages should have been included that cover ground vehicle weapons and combat especially with the lower page count and price increase. Let me clarify by saying ground vehicle chase rules. Military ground vehicles (plasma tanks) would be an extra supplement in my opinion. I hope chase rules are included. I will also say that no one said they have not been included.
I also think that one of the staff indicated that the presentation of the book has advanced. I think something was said that they have learned allot since Pathfinder.
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I agree with the points made inflation and development cost. I would point out that when Pathfinder first came out the company/Paizo was not as big as they are now. They have the huge hit in Pathfinder and established relationships with printers and better understanding of the staff needed to get a major rpg to market. Despite that Pathfinder rpg was 576 for 49.99 and continues to be that price to Paizo's credit.
Starfinder is 528 for 59.99 people are going to want to know why that is. They may say something like inflation and development should be offset by the experience they have with Pathfinder. If anything it maybe should have been Pathfinder 528 for 59.99 and Starfinder for 49.99 and 576. That being said I am still going to get 3 copies.
I think this could be compounded if something feels left out of the rules such as ground vehicle weapons and combat. It may be said that the 10 to 12 pages should have been included that cover ground vehicle weapons and combat especially with the lower page count and price increase. Let me clarify by saying ground vehicle chase rules. Military ground vehicles (plasma tanks) would be an extra supplement in my opinion. I hope chase rules are included. I will also say that no one said they have not been included.
I also think that one of the staff indicated that the presentation of the book has advanced. I think something was said that they have learned allot since Pathfinder.
Another to thing to remember is the sheer amount of material that is compatible with Starfinder. Even at the $59.99 price point we're still getting an incredible value.
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At this point I think it's obvious that this is Guardians of the Galaxy RPG.I also suspect the ysoki iconic is going to be a full-on pyromaniac, probably with a background involving clearing out/repelling a xenomorph infestation. As a goblin, I eagerly await flamethrower-related combat styles and archetypes... and the complementary/necessary bacta-healer alchemist archetype.
Hmmm, should flamethrower wielders and pyrokineticists get a bonus to Diplomacy and fascinate checks against goblins?
The Imperial Goblin Space Navy Needs YOU!
See, we... had a flamethrower... incident. So... yeah. Time for a recruitment drive...
ANYWAY.
JOIN UP!
The compatibility and the ease of it remains to be seen. I do think it will be incredibly well supported. I might even make the case that it will be the most supported with the AP and additional material.
528 is actually a good size for a Sci-fi game. I do think it is the largest core book for a sci-fi game. My points is though if you say we cut 800 pages to 528 and people expected 560 then leave something out like vehicle chase rules people may have an issue with this. Bite the bullet reduce profit margins slightly and include the chase rules. Now let me stress I have no idea that vehicle chase chase rules were left out. It is just an example.
I think the starship combat rules displayed looked great, but it is not going to be the sole focus of my games. A large part maybe sole focus no. I would like some vehicle chase rules when the PCs want to make quick get away.
I am not so sure I would say Guardians of the Galaxy Rpg from the simple issue of beings like Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet occupy the same space. I think any D20 game has problems dealing with beings that destroy planets with a whim. I think Mutants and Mastermind 3rd amped up might do better with this. If you keep the game focused on the Guardians and the lower power level folks they fight in the Marvel Universe then sure. You include Thanos and Galaticus not soo much.
Let's also take into account that this isn't just a rule book. It's also the setting. Ergo, if you're planning to play in the core setting this means you don't need to buy an entirely different book at $49.99.
I do realize that Mutants and Master Minds is a D20 system but scales differently it incorporates various power levels easier. It is designed to do that.
the Pactworld cruisers remind me a bit of the Earth Alliance capital ships in Babylon 5.You know that the Pactworlds have a standardized armada, and that those ships are what's represented in the cover art?
Where did they reveal that?
IIRC Those cruisers (or something very close at least in configuration) are also in the miniature line, and labeled as Pactworld.
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That is right Traveler 5 was 759. So this would be maybe 2nd biggest?
So maybe 3rd or 4th. Digest size to me is really half what 8.5 by 11.
I will go back to the original point of increased cost at 528 at 59.99 and lower page count than what was originally advertised,560,and its more established counter part Pathfinder at 576 for 49.99. It is one thing if 528 feels like complete game and the graphics presentation is enhanced like it was hinted at. However, if something is left out like vehicle chase rules then the general audience may not be as forgiving.
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Honestly, looking at recent RPGs, if the 320 pages 7th Sea second edition costs 59.99 and 400ish pages Star Wars core rulebooks cost 59.95 and the mostly B&W 449 pages Call of Cthulhu 7th ed. costs 54.95, I'm not complaining for a full-color 528 pg book at 59.99 bucks.
I am also pretty sure that the prices of Paizo books are influenced by more things than just the page count. The most important being the ROI given the projected sales.
Honestly, looking at recent RPGs, if the 320 pages 7th Sea second edition costs 59.99 and 400ish pages Star Wars core rulebooks cost 59.95 and the mostly B&W 449 pages Call of Cthulhu 7th ed. costs 54.95, I'm not complaining for a full-color 528 pg book at 59.99 bucks.
I am also pretty sure that the prices of Paizo books are influenced by more things than just the page count. The most important being the ROI given the projected sales.
I agree.
When I buy an RPG book I'm not buying pages, I'm buying the creative product and production values. When I compare two rpgs it's pretty much exclusively on those two measures - how big the book is doesn't enter into the question of value, in my case.
I struggle to imagine anything produced by Paizo that wouldn't warrant a hefty price tag on those criteria - their pricing policy is extremely competitive, in my view (especially given the PDF access and discount via subscriptions).
The point would not be that a 528 page book is 59.99. It revolves around couple things. The same company has a similar product that is 576 pages for 49.99. This is what Starfinder will be compared to not another companies books. Second it was thought for some time the book would be 560 and now it is 528. Third they talk about cutting 800+ pages down to 528. If the game feels complete than no problem. If it missing something like chase rules then people would ask why weren't chase rules included for example (ground vehicles).As I have indicated before I have no indication that chase rules were left out. It is an example.
I would agree that ground military vehicles and Mechs may be different book.
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The point would not be that a 528 page book is 59.99. It revolves around couple things. The same company has a similar product that is 576 pages for 49.99. This is what Starfinder will be compared to not another companies books. Second it was thought for some time the book would be 560 and now it is 528. Third they talk about cutting 800+ pages down to 528. If the game feels complete than no problem. If it missing something like chase rules then people would ask why weren't chase rules included for example (ground vehicles).As I have indicated before I have no indication that chase rules were left out. It is an example.
Yeah, people have lots of different ways of valuing things and switching around after expectations are established is always a risk (I wasn't disputing your point, merely expressing a different perspective).
For me, I won't be comparing Starfinder to Pathfinder. I agree with you that there are bound to be some who call it a 'money grab' or something based on such an analysis. Although I kind of suspect that would happen no matter what the pagecount/price.
Personally, I don't think that collectively we value professionally produced, creative output highly enough. For an RPG I actually think an appropriate price comparison "should be" a college level textbook. That's pretty unlikely to ever happen.
Well, the book has already been sent to the printers and the price has already been solicited, so neither the contents nor the price are going to change. All we can do is wait to get the book in our hands and then decide whether or not it was worth it.
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+1 for looking forward to getting this book into my grasping hands. :)
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Personally, I don't think that collectively we value professionally produced, creative output highly enough. For an RPG I actually think an appropriate price comparison "should be" a college level textbook. That's pretty unlikely to ever happen.
How we value this appears in the price to page ratio of quality 3pp books
Also we are enthusiastic about our RPG hobby but our budget is not elastic usually. I have far more RPG books on my shelves than college level textbooks
I think the CRB was priced to win market share rather than margins and additional sales of other PFRPG products allowed Paizo to maintain its relatively low price
Obviously the goals of Starfinder's launch are not the same ;-)
Personally, I don't think that collectively we value professionally produced, creative output highly enough. For an RPG I actually think an appropriate price comparison "should be" a college level textbook. That's pretty unlikely to ever happen.Even small publishers (people doing it as a hobby) are delivering higher production standards than many books I saw in the 70s and 80s, including ones from major publishers. High production quality isn't even a 'professional' thing any more, it's normal. There are companies who go against the trend for full colour deliberately, but they set their prices accordingly - the second edition of Mongoose Traveller is an example here. Starfinder doesn't seem likely to stand out compared to it's competitors.
I agree.
My point was that I think we should be happy to pay more for RPGs than we seem to be willing to, (given how good they are).
At this point I think it's obvious that this is Guardians of the Galaxy RPG.I also suspect the ysoki iconic is going to be a full-on pyromaniac, probably with a background involving clearing out/repelling a xenomorph infestation. As a goblin, I eagerly await flamethrower-related combat styles and archetypes... and the complementary/necessary bacta-healer alchemist archetype.
Hmmm, should flamethrower wielders and pyrokineticists get a bonus to Diplomacy and fascinate checks against goblins?
Do goblins appreciate fire being used against them, though...?
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Do goblins appreciate fire being used against them, though...?At this point I think it's obvious that this is Guardians of the Galaxy RPG.I also suspect the ysoki iconic is going to be a full-on pyromaniac, probably with a background involving clearing out/repelling a xenomorph infestation. As a goblin, I eagerly await flamethrower-related combat styles and archetypes... and the complementary/necessary bacta-healer alchemist archetype.
Hmmm, should flamethrower wielders and pyrokineticists get a bonus to Diplomacy and fascinate checks against goblins?
Does Dirty Harry still appreciate the awesomeness of .357 Magnum that puts a slug in him? Does Jeremy Clarkson still appreciate the awesomeness of an BMW M3 that runs over him? Does A. Slaad still appreciate the deliciousness of peppermint if she attempted to eat a lethal dose of it in a single snack? The answer to all of these is: Yes.
My point is not so much the page count as it it is if something feels left out. Then the questions start to become why didn't you put the rule in the book. You have a book you alreardy publish at 576 for 49.99. The price on this book has not increased. I am paying 10:00 dollars more and at 528 and it did not have all the rules it should have. This is very subjective thing. For me it sounds like most everything is in the book. I would like to see ground vehicle chase rules in core because it is something I think will come up in game sessions. That being said I have no indication they will not be. I use it as an example.
That will lead into my next point. I do think the staff could do little better job conveying information about their game Starfinder. They rellie on customers to compile all the known information about the game. Customers posted all videos. To be frank this is something Paizo staff should be doing along with being more present on these boards. Without the customers here and at large there would be no game. So when I see staff go out of the way to demo and answer questions at GAMA I think they have lost touch a bit. If not for you there is no reason for GAMA trade show. You the customer should be the top priority. It does not always seem like you are. Just my opinion though,
Does Dirty Harry still appreciate the awesomeness of .357 Magnum that puts a slug in him? Does Jeremy Clarkson still appreciate the awesomeness of an BMW M3 that runs over him? Does A. Slaad still appreciate the deliciousness of peppermint if she attempted to eat a lethal dose of it in a single snack? The answer to all of these is: Yes.Do goblins appreciate fire being used against them, though...?At this point I think it's obvious that this is Guardians of the Galaxy RPG.I also suspect the ysoki iconic is going to be a full-on pyromaniac, probably with a background involving clearing out/repelling a xenomorph infestation. As a goblin, I eagerly await flamethrower-related combat styles and archetypes... and the complementary/necessary bacta-healer alchemist archetype.
Hmmm, should flamethrower wielders and pyrokineticists get a bonus to Diplomacy and fascinate checks against goblins?
Not mention the goblin appreciation of ironic humor.
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That will lead into my next point. I do think the staff could do little better job conveying information about their game Starfinder. They rellie on customers to compile all the known information about the game. Customers posted all videos. To be frank this is something Paizo staff should be doing along with being more present on these boards. Without the customers here and at large there would be no game. So when I see staff go out of the way to demo and answer questions at GAMA I think they have lost touch a bit. If not for you there is no reason for GAMA trade show. You the customer should be the top priority. It does not always seem like you are. Just my opinion though,
A few things come to my mind:
1) Paizo staff have been conducting several interviews getting the information out there.
2) Fans will ALWAYS better and faster about compiling information from various sources together. Every genre, media, game, TV, movie, etc.
3) Without retailer support as well, products like this wouldn't be possible. Paizo needs GAMA as much as it needs us fans.
4) Several times they have mentioned that after the book is off to the printers, then they will start ramping up the sharing of information with fans. Both because they are busy working on the book, but also because I'm pretty sure it's more helpful and informative later than too early.
Too early and it might wind up changing. Also, I don't know about you, but I know with most movies, I get tired of seeing trailers for them over a year before they come out. By the time it finally does come out, I'm scratching my head thinking it was out months ago. RPGs are different, but still there's a reason sharing information is usually "ramping up" to release.
So expect a lot more from them talking up Starfinder once it goes out to the printers... which was just now. :)
Plus, on a separate note - I do love the cover! Nice little thing that it features 2 females, 1 agender, and then whatever the ysoki winds up being. It's a nice change. :)
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I feel like we're Paizo's top priority. I can't think of a more responsive, transparent and available-to-their-customers company (of equivalent size) in any field, to be frank.
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Do goblins appreciate fire being used against them, though...?Does Dirty Harry still appreciate the awesomeness of .357 Magnum that puts a slug in him? Does Jeremy Clarkson still appreciate the awesomeness of an BMW M3 that runs over him? Does A. Slaad still appreciate the deliciousness of peppermint if she attempted to eat a lethal dose of it in a single snack? The answer to all of these is: Yes.
THAT'S the spirit! Join on up! The Imperial Goblin Space Navy always needs a few good Gobs!
(It's also worth pointing out the nasty little beasts think OTHER goblins getting lit ablaze is hilarious- if goblins being lit on fire curbed the enthusiasm of goblins for fire in any way, the species would have given up on it centuries ago)
We will disagree on several points. Paizo does not need GAMA, Distrubeters like Alliance and Diamond, and local retailers as much as you. The local retail and distribution model is slowly going away in favor of direct online sales. The local game store has slowly diversified and sell more than role playing games. It has become a smaller and smaller part of the store sale. So for Paizo I would guess that subscriptions and Amazon make a big chunk of their sales. So in the past was GAMA as important? Maybe, now I would say no. As far as fans compiling information I would disagree with that also. Create spot on the site for current information and have links to interviews and upload videos. Since they are the ones doing videos and interviews there is no way fans should be faster. Once again my opinion though.
Customer service is not the same thing as the developers. Customer service staff yes
Game developers no. Case in point how many of the interviews were posted by Paizo staff about Starfinder? How many demos videos have they posted? The game is off to the printers and the cover and product dicription was the most recent post. Have they posted a preview schedule. Been actively engaged with their customers on the Boards? I also would say that there are big companies that engage fans as much. Blizzard comes to mind that always is posting developers Q&As
Hey Dave2, these questions and comments are better suited to our Website Feedback subforum. This makes it more readily available to our staff, and makes it easier to reference. Thanks!
Thanks. I am done beating perviable dead horse. Just some observations and comments. The questions about Starfinder and page size I would guess be here the other stuff like uploading video and second hand observation stuff would go other forum. Do not want to stir up stuff and side track this forum. I am done with observationalist comments and post.
Chief Technical Officer
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I can tell you that we do have a plan for revealing Starfinder content on paizo.com and elsewhere, which involves dozens of reveals right up to and through the release date... but step one of the plan is "Finish the book."
As for product cost and page count issues, retail price is not simply a factor of page count (though that's obviously a pretty significant factor)—other significant factors include editorial and art costs. Both are higher for the Starfinder Core Rulebook than Pathfinder. Some of you will remember that the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook reused a fair amount of art from our 3.5-era RPG products, but almost all of the Starfinder Core Rulebook art was commissioned specifically for this product. (I *think* the answer might actually be *all* of the art, but since I'm not 100% certain there isn't some exception I'm forgetting, I'm saying "almost all.")
Also, print costs have indeed gone up since the Core Rulebook appeared almost 10 years ago. But we haven't changed the price in all that time because we figure we've recouped our editorial and art costs and, as it's a fully mature product, we have a higher degree of predictability when it comes to sales, so there's minimal risk associated with setting our print run sizes. So we can afford to have a smaller margin on the Core Rulebook than we used to have.
A more recent comparison would be the Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover, which is 480 pages for $59.99. The Starfinder Core Rulebook comes out ahead there, with an additional 48 pages for the same price. (I should also mention that print quantity is also a factor in pricing—as a GM-focused book, Crimson Throne has a smaller reach than we expect for the Starfinder Core Rulebook, so our per-copy print costs are higher for that one.)
Finally, the shift from 560 to 528 pages doesn't mean we omitted content. When we were estimating 560 pages, we hadn't laid out the book yet. The way that a page is laid out can change the number of words per page to a significant degree—don't underestimate the power of a narrow font! Everything we wanted to get in there is in there.
Thanks for the response. If everything is in there you wanted and nothing got left on cutting room floor that staff wanted in that is all can be asked for. So it was never really a page count thing if all the rules staff wanted in are in. My point was if something was left on cutting room floor that staff wanted in may cause some eyebrows to be raised. See I did not fish anymore to see if ground vehicle chase rules were in the core book. It is good point with print run size and being able to estimate that better with Pathfinder.
In several short months will have book in hands so all questions will be answered. See April, May, June, July, and August. I am older now and loose track of years so August hear before know it.
Soooon to be a GM hermit.
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(I *think* the answer might actually be *all* of the art, but since I'm not 100% certain there isn't some exception I'm forgetting, I'm saying "almost all.")
Yup, all the art is 100% new! :D