It really seems like there are two camps here. Some are just grateful to finally get something. Others feel like Charlie Brown at Trick or Treat.

Heh. That's a pretty good summation.

An event that schedules 21 games over three days and raises $1,600 for a charitable cause should be congratulated with convention support.

An event that schedules 28 events over three days and is relocated to this venue at the last minute should be congratulated with convention support.

Under the new definitions, however, these events would have to compete with a handful of other events for Game Day support and not convention support, simply because that venue is a retail store.

Those are just two examples of Enchanted Grounds supporting the PFS community and I hope we can continue to commend businesses like this for all they do.

I think this retail component which now downgrades conventions into Game Days should be reconsidered. Events of that scale are not a Game Day.

A three day con with over 75 tables that raised $3,755 for charity is now a game day.

I suggest that you remove the "Ten per RVC" stricture, and let each application be judged on its own merit, without having to worry about having a cap to the number of events. Not getting consecutive quarters, or simply limiting a venue to one per year, will hold your numbers down adequately.

I feel this might be a better method. Then every venue can have a chance to participate.

The only issue I see with this is places with a high density of game stores could potentially have a large boom of opportunities, but at the same time, that may just be an advantage to being in an affluent area. Not sure if there's a perfect solution for that aspect. Probably still more fair than what is proposed. (I think that's why it was limited to the way it was before)

Edit: Upon reflection, this really isn't any different from before as far as "large boom of opportunities" go. Have to agree with you Drogon.

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Drogon wrote:

Not getting consecutive quarters, or simply limiting a venue to one per year, will hold your numbers down adequately.

Do you believe this will keep boon distribution to the desired proportion?

As BigNorseWolf pointed out, I believe it will put it UP to the desired proportion.

+1. What exactly is the desired proportion of boon distribution? Obviously the opinion of this will vary from person to person.

A three day con with over 75 tables that raised $3,755 for charity is now a game day.

Wait, we're a game day now? Is this because we have a local "game store" that serves as awesome convention space, but because it's a "game store" it's no longer a convention? This is just absurd. This store would bend over backwards for us, and the dollar totals for sales that I heard they pulled in over the convention time vastly, vastly outweigh what we pulled in for charity too.

I hated conventions and the crap about them before; this just takes the cake.

I have to concur with Drogon with the concerns here.

Here's another hearty "Drogon, keep up the discussion, because you're right" from the peanut gallery.

jon dehning wrote:

A three day con with over 75 tables that raised $3,755 for charity is now a game day.

Wait, we're a game day now? Is this because we have a local "game store" that serves as awesome convention space, but because it's a "game store" it's no longer a convention? This is just absurd. This store would bend over backwards for us, and the dollar totals for sales that I heard they pulled in over the convention time vastly, vastly outweigh what we pulled in for charity too.

I hated conventions and the crap about them before; this just takes the cake.

From what I understand, the kitchen pulled in $2000 more per day than normal. $6000 additional dollars from ~90 hungry and thirsty nerds.

Todd Reidenbach wrote:

An event that schedules 21 games over three days and raises $1,600 for a charitable cause should be congratulated with convention support.

An event that schedules 28 events over three days and is relocated to this venue at the last minute should be congratulated with convention support.

Under the new definitions, however, these events would have to compete with a handful of other events for Game Day support and not convention support, simply because that venue is a retail store.

Those are just two examples of Enchanted Grounds supporting the PFS community and I hope we can continue to commend businesses like this for all they do.

I think this retail component which now downgrades conventions into Game Days should be reconsidered. Events of that scale are not a Game Day.

A three day con with over 75 tables that raised $3,755 for charity is now a game day.

This is the saddest thing I've read today. And I post the news online for a living.

Being punished by not being called a convention simply because we get space at a retail venue. A retail venue that RENTS the event center to us. A convention that only asks for BOONS not gift certificates because we're operating out of a retail venue and want people to purchase the vendor's inventory.

There needs to be more options because making this only a game day is unacceptable.

We donated so much to help the community and now we're downgraded to a Game Day.

Saddest thing today.

Nohwear wrote:

It really seems like there are two camps here. Some are just grateful to finally get something. Others feel like Charlie Brown at Trick or Treat.

There's also a fair bit of disagreement over how this works exactly. Asmodeous is in the details.

Nowhere wrote:

Nohwear wrote:

It really seems like there are two camps here. Some are just grateful to finally get something. Others feel like Charlie Brown at Trick or Treat.

There's also a fair bit of disagreement over how this works exactly. Asmodeous is in the details.

Very true.

To give some clarification -

While some retailers don't mind outside products/gift certificates, feedback indicates more mind that do not.

Before, there was only convention support. So everything was put in one bucket. We also had to decline support for events with less than 15 tables occurring over 3 days. Which ruled out many of our smaller venues.

Now we have two types of support - Convention Support and Game Day Support - and we are working to divide up the events into each category. The differences in the support packages are the type of GM boon and that cons get gift certificates. The cons which occur in retail space now apply for Game Day support via their RVC. They need to plan a few more months out, as Game Days are selected every quarter. So if you have an event in July, apply to the RVC now for support.

In a nutshell, we can support the 5 table con in rural Arkansas, or the 10 table con in Russia. A venue that runs once a month can distribute boons, so those people that cannot afford to travel have an opportunity to get items previously denied them.

This is a living program, so feedback is appreciated and changes to the program will occur based on such feedback.

-T

@JonathanNg - thanks for fixing the link to the Regional Coordinators.

Do folks have an option to just say "Boons instead of certificates?" I think most areas are more about the boons than the certs.

Nowhere wrote:

Nohwear wrote:

It really seems like there are two camps here. Some are just grateful to finally get something. Others feel like Charlie Brown at Trick or Treat.

There's also a fair bit of disagreement over how this works exactly. Asmodeous is in the details.

Absolutely. And gets me back to saying transparency is going to be key.

Again, thank you, Tonya, for committing to that.

There are parts of this program that give me pause, and the folks from Minnesota really are on the path of the main one. I understand the basic need to treat events at a retail space as a Game Day and not a con - in terms of gift certificates. We don't want our retailers to feel the continued pressure of competitiveness by Paizo (via gift certificates.)

But, from my own experience here, I have one store owner who things the PDFs actually help his in store sales...he feels they drive people to buy product in his store. I know he isn't the only one who feels that way.

So, Tonya, as a suggestion - perhaps this particular provision can be revisited and judged on each application for an event. If, in the case of the Minnesota folks, they have a retail venue that says, "hey, give all the product support you want, that's fine with us" then let them keep their convention. It seems calling that specific event something other than a convention is...I'm not sure of the word...less than accurate?

And if a store owner says, "no, I don't want the gift certificates because they compete" then make that a game day. But let the organizers get that information and factor it into the application, and then judge the application accordingly.

Of all the parts of the new program, I think this is one that really needs a much closer look.

Jeffrey Fox said wrote:

I'm just a bit anxious and stressed out because I don't like failing my community and if I can't get them the support they want, when I use to be able to, I feel like I'm failing them. And that kinda sucks.

This exactly sums out how I feel about this situation as well. My region has five yearly retail-based conventions that suddenly aren't conventions. If I can only support two of them, I don't know if the others are going to survive.

This is also how I feel. Relegating conventions that would qualify for the highest level of support to game days that may not get any support simply because of location (retail) saddens me. Especially so because it's a significant charity event.

There are parts of this program that give me pause, and the folks from Minnesota really are on the path of the main one. I understand the basic need to treat events at a retail space as a Game Day and not a con - in terms of gift certificates. We don't want our retailers to feel the continued pressure of competitiveness by Paizo (via gift certificates.)

But, from my own experience here, I have one store owner who things the PDFs actually help his in store sales...he feels they drive people to buy product in his store. I know he isn't the only one who feels that way.

So, Tonya, as a suggestion - perhaps this particular provision can be revisited and judged on each application for an event. If, in the case of the Minnesota folks, they have a retail venue that says, "hey, give all the product support you want, that's fine with us" then let them keep their convention. It seems calling that specific event something other than a convention is...I'm not sure of the word...less than accurate?

And if a store owner says, "no, I don't want the gift certificates because they compete" then make that a game day. But let the organizers get that information and factor it into the application, and then judge the application accordingly.

Of all the parts of the new program, I think this is one that really needs a much closer look.

I'm on board with all of this.

Hell, I use Paizo's $10 Core Book PDF to *sell* my books: "Want that book? I can get you the PDF for free." I then walk them through the signup process on Paizo, give them a $10 discount on the book they purchase from me, then get them to buy the PDF from Paizo. The result? A dedicated Pathfinder fan with a Paizo account who actually knows how to access it, and has a reason to access it. They usually turn into PFS players.

This is the saddest thing I've read today. And I post the news online for a living.

Being punished by not being called a convention simply because we get space at a retail venue. A retail venue that RENTS the event center to us. A convention that only asks for BOONS not gift certificates because we're operating out of a retail venue and want people to purchase the vendor's inventory.

A retail venue that gave us probably $1,000 in product support for rewards too because they recognize that we can all work together, not apart. Don't forget that.

Then there's the worst part. I also read the following out of this post...

"Hello Venture Officers. Because we want to make sure you're helping make PFS what it should be, we're going to require you support conventions to keep our hobby helpful. It seems only fair to us."

*Musings behind the scenes...*

"Oh, and we're going to raise the bar for what we call a convention. Good luck with that."

I was a VC, and the amount of money I spent out-of-pocket to support this hobby was outstanding. I did so with a smile, because I honestly enjoy the hobby and the game. I'm trying to imagine though what it would have been like if this had popped up during my tenure. First turning this into a job, and then pulling those requirements and turning them into something more difficult to achieve is just astounding to me. I'm trying to imagine what it would have been like knowing that I fought tooth and nail to get a more inexpensive game space available for me, only to find out that because it's "attached to a game store" it no longer "counts".

I've been skeptical since the addition of the RVC system; that skepticism has changed to outright distrust with this latest announcement. Seeing what just happened, gutting what became the one convention I really, and I mean really looked forward to to a "game day" because of this kind of bureaucracy.

This doesn't just make me sad. It also makes me angry. I work 2 jobs, organize a game day of 4-5 tables every Saturday, Moderate for 2 large Twitch channels and find the time with 6 other people to organize our 2 major and multiple minor conventions in MN every year. One of those conventions that I put my precious little time into is now a game day?

It's a game day because instead of renting a hotel space and making people spend $300 for the weekend on a room plus con fees we worked with one of our local stores and rented the Event Center attached to their retail space from them.

To make sure we get support, since after estimating the numbers in the region we're in it's only about 4% of the game days every 1/4 that get upgraded to Game Days, we'd have to leave the Event Center at the game store that you're worried about making angry and move to a hotel space or Somewhere else that doesn't sell Products?

This seems counter productive.

//

Us: We'd like to reserve this space again this year because you guys were so awesome last year and people had fun! We raised $3700+ for our charity and everyone felt good about what we did!

Store: Yeah come back you guys are the best!!

*new convention policy*

Us: Oh hey sorry store we can't be a convention there now so we need to take our rental fee and all that money we made you in food/drink/product sales last year elsewhere to make sure we get convention status so our GM's and players get boons for all the work they do. Paizo said this isn't a convention anymore.

Store: RAWR WHAT?!?!

Us: Sorry, bye bye. Uh we can still play here for game days right? I mean...

//

We need more options than just no cons in retail space. Nothing is ever as black and white as it appears and cookie cutter-ing this isn't the right answer.

Nohwear wrote:

It really seems like there are two camps here. Some are just grateful to finally get something. Others feel like Charlie Brown at Trick or Treat.

Heh. That's a pretty good summation.

That is a pretty good summation. Many of us outside of the US are (and have always been) extremely grateful to be getting something. And my comments on how I was going to be assigning Games Day support was very much from the European perspective of having conventions be at specific event locations. We don't have conventions in stores. Any events that happen in stores wouldn't be big enough to count as conventions and would be considered to just be game days. So saying that events in retail locations don't count as conventions for support purposes had no impact on us whatsoever. To be honest I hadn't really registered it.

As I said in my original post on this thread, "I am interpreting the Game Days as....." so please don't take that interpretation to be what every RVC is doing. Each of us is interpreting this and allocating support according to the unique elements of our region.

I admit that I was unaware of retail conventions myself.

If I can only support two of them, I don't know if the others are going to survive.

I know everyone like prizes and rewards. There is no arguing that fact, but have some faith in your players. The vast majority of people don't play PFS because of some piece of paper. Its the game they love and the people they enjoy playing with that brings them back. Boons and other prizes are just the icing on an otherwise very tasty and satisfying cake. While it might require an adjustment in how we approach events and how we view the rewards, once the process is in place and moving, I am confident it will have little to no impact on a player's decision to play Pathfinder or to continue supporting their local events.

Mark Stratton wrote:

There are parts of this program that give me pause, and the folks from Minnesota really are on the path of the main one. I understand the basic need to treat events at a retail space as a Game Day and not a con - in terms of gift certificates. We don't want our retailers to feel the continued pressure of competitiveness by Paizo (via gift certificates.)

But, from my own experience here, I have one store owner who things the PDFs actually help his in store sales...he feels they drive people to buy product in his store. I know he isn't the only one who feels that way.

So, Tonya, as a suggestion - perhaps this particular provision can be revisited and judged on each application for an event. If, in the case of the Minnesota folks, they have a retail venue that says, "hey, give all the product support you want, that's fine with us" then let them keep their convention. It seems calling that specific event something other than a convention is...I'm not sure of the word...less than accurate?

And if a store owner says, "no, I don't want the gift certificates because they compete" then make that a game day. But let the organizers get that information and factor it into the application, and then judge the application accordingly.

Of all the parts of the new program, I think this is one that really needs a much closer look.

I'm on board with all of this.

Hell, I use Paizo's $10 Core Book PDF to *sell* my books: "Want that book? I can get you the PDF for free." I then walk them through the signup process on Paizo, give them a $10 discount on the book they purchase from me, then get them to buy the PDF from Paizo. The result? A dedicated Pathfinder fan with a Paizo account who actually knows how to access it, and has a reason to access it. They usually turn into PFS players.

Also really like this solution. Doesn't penalize larger venues and charity events that were already getting support, and allows smaller regions the ability to get boons. The solution is in the classification! Terrific solution!

Joanna Gore wrote:

If I can only support two of them, I don't know if the others are going to survive.

I know everyone like prizes and rewards. There is no arguing that fact, but have some faith in your players. The vast majority of people don't play PFS because of some piece of paper. Its the game they love and the people they enjoy playing with that brings them back. Boons and other prizes are just the icing on an otherwise very tasty and satisfying cake. While it might require an adjustment in how we approach events and how we view the rewards, once the process is in place and moving, I am confident it will have little to no impact on a player's decision to play Pathfinder or to continue supporting their local events.

I don't think that you're understanding why, at least my region, is upset. We work very hard to put on a charity convention. We had a very successful one and now because we chose to work with a game store instead of a hotel/convention center we're being told we're merely a game day.

We don't even ask for support in product/gift cards for it. We just want the recognition that we're a convention and the boons for GM's and players.

We run 48 game days a quarter here. There's not a lack of available times/days to play. Of course they'll keep coming. Conventions are how we reward our players and now how we give back to the community.

Now it feels like we're being shoved into a space that doesn't fit us.

Our cons often bring new players. SkalCon brought in new players AND cemented our relationship with Fantasy Flight Games.

This new policy is trying to spread the wealth, which is awesome, but it's also removing pieces of that wealth that were being used well and not angering anyone.

This doesn't just make me sad. It also makes me angry. I work 2 jobs, organize a game day of 4-5 tables every Saturday, Moderate for 2 large Twitch channels and find the time with 6 other people to organize our 2 major and multiple minor conventions in MN every year. One of those conventions that I put my precious little time into is now a game day?

It's a game day because instead of renting a hotel space and making people spend $300 for the weekend on a room plus con fees we worked with one of our local stores and rented the Event Center attached to their retail space from them.

To make sure we get support, since after estimating the numbers in the region we're in it's only about 4% of the game days every 1/4 that get upgraded to Game Days, we'd have to leave the Event Center at the game store that you're worried about making angry and move to a hotel space or Somewhere else that doesn't sell Products?

This seems counter productive.

//

Us: We'd like to reserve this space again this year because you guys were so awesome last year and people had fun! We raised $3700+ for our charity and everyone felt good about what we did!

Store: Yeah come back you guys are the best!!

*new convention policy*

Us: Oh hey sorry store we can't be a convention there now so we need to take our rental fee and all that money we made you in food/drink/product sales last year elsewhere to make sure we get convention status so our GM's and players get boons for all the work they do. Paizo said this isn't a convention anymore.

Store: RAWR WHAT?!?!

Us: Sorry, bye bye. Uh we can still play here for game days right? I mean...

//

We need more options than just no cons in retail space. Nothing is ever as black and white as it appears and cookie cutter-ing this isn't the right answer.

Let's not forget the fact that the store in question has a better event space for PFS conventions than most hotels. I'm not convinced that I should go back to CotN as a local convention, but I definitely want to go back to Skal Con. CotN was hidden away from conference amenities in a cramped space. It was a subpar experience as an attendee because we were a sliver of the convention action. On top of that, from everything I've heard, it's significantly more arduous work for our organizers.

Skal Con was a smashing success because a lot of the problems that come up from being part of some other event weren't there. PFS was the star of the show, so we had a convention room in a store to ourselves. The kitchen was scarcely 100 feet away and served more than frozen pizza and hot dogs - it's a friggin' gourmet kitchen! People traveled from other regions to play and GM. We had special access to a retired scenario run by its author. We could hear our GMs and players at each table without making them shout over the entire room.

This is not a game day. This is a convention. Compare that to this and tell me if you can tell the difference.

Jolene Danner

Lets see if there's something to get angry about first.

I'm reading the tea leaves here a bit, but it looks to me like the Con/Gameday split is more along the lines of whether they gave someone the keys to the gift certificates and boons or just the boons. You apply to the "gameday" guy because he can hand you the boons and the person higher up the foodchain doesn't have to deal with it. I don't think that sucks boons out of the gameday pool, or that they're even necessarily the same boons. The only difference i see is the lack of gift certificates

Jolene Danner

Lets see if there's something to get angry about first.

I'm reading the tea leaves here a bit, but it looks to me like the Con/Gameday split is more along the lines of whether they gave someone the keys to the gift certificates and boons or just the boons. You apply to the "gameday" guy because he can hand you the boons and the person higher up the foodchain doesn't have to deal with it. I don't think that sucks boons out of the gameday pool, or that they're even necessarily the same boons. The only difference i see is the lack of gift certificates

I guess it is a bit unclear if "game day" cons are competing with regular game day stuff for special resources.

Can we all, please, take a step back, take a breath, and try to be civil? There's no need to make little digs at people, or to be so bent out of shape. Working toward a solution for everyone doesn't require us to be hostile or belligerent. Please.

Jolene Danner

Lets see if there's something to get angry about first.

I'm reading the tea leaves here a bit, but it looks to me like the Con/Gameday split is more along the lines of whether they gave someone the keys to the gift certificates and boons or just the boons. You apply to the "gameday" guy because he can hand you the boons and the person higher up the foodchain doesn't have to deal with it. I don't think that sucks boons out of the gameday pool, or that they're even necessarily the same boons. The only difference i see is the lack of gift certificates

We don't want to be a "Game Day with boons" we want to be a Convention. It sounds like it's dumb, but it matters. I plan game days all the time. They don't take me nearly as long as planning this convention that's under threat of Game Day.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Jolene Danner

Lets see if there's something to get angry about first.

I'm reading the tea leaves here a bit, but it looks to me like the Con/Gameday split is more along the lines of whether they gave someone the keys to the gift certificates and boons or just the boons. You apply to the "gameday" guy because he can hand you the boons and the person higher up the foodchain doesn't have to deal with it. I don't think that sucks boons out of the gameday pool, or that they're even necessarily the same boons. The only difference i see is the lack of gift certificates

I guess it is a bit unclear if "game day" cons are competing with regular game day stuff for special resources.

Yes, we are competing against other locations from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico for one of ten spots.

We don't want to be a "Game Day with boons" we want to be a Convention. It sounds like it's dumb, but it matters. I plan game days all the time. They don't take me nearly as long as planning this convention that's under threat of Game Day.

Rose by another name and all that. I don't see what the difference is if its just in a name?

Jolene Danner

Lets see if there's something to get angry about first.

I'm reading the tea leaves here a bit, but it looks to me like the Con/Gameday split is more along the lines of whether they gave someone the keys to the gift certificates and boons or just the boons. You apply to the "gameday" guy because he can hand you the boons and the person higher up the foodchain doesn't have to deal with it. I don't think that sucks boons out of the gameday pool, or that they're even necessarily the same boons. The only difference i see is the lack of gift certificates

Except this is not the case currently.

There has been no communication that would indicate that there is a third tier of support. The Retail Convention.

Rose by another name and all that. I don't see what the difference is if its just in a name?

The question being if there is a difference in support provided for a gameday versus a convention, and if that difference is meaningful to Jolene. Tonya's responses so far make me feel like both are true.

Jolene Danner wrote:

We don't want to be a "Game Day with boons" we want to be a Convention. It sounds like it's dumb, but it matters. I plan game days all the time. They don't take me nearly as long as planning this convention that's under threat of Game Day.

Rose by another name and all that. I don't see what the difference is if its just in a name?

Its also an issue of whether we receive any support from Paizo whatsoever.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Rose by another name and all that. I don't see what the difference is if its just in a name?

The question being if there is a difference in support provided for a gameday versus a convention, and if that difference is meaningful to Jolene.

That is a potential issue. At this point we don't know what the difference is between those two levels of support.

The main issue though, is if our RVC chooses a different location to support for one of his 10 quarterly game days, we would get zero support.

And if there is going to be an exception and a wink, wink, nudge, nudge type situation here, then just make a third Tier of support. A Retail Convention that gets boons but no gift certificates. It ends up being the same thing, just more hoops for us to jump through to make it happen.

When is the next of these charity cons? It might be helpful for everyone to know how much time you lot have to work with.

Joanna Gore wrote:

If I can only support two of them, I don't know if the others are going to survive.

I know everyone like prizes and rewards. There is no arguing that fact, but have some faith in your players. The vast majority of people don't play PFS because of some piece of paper. Its the game they love and the people they enjoy playing with that brings them back. Boons and other prizes are just the icing on an otherwise very tasty and satisfying cake. While it might require an adjustment in how we approach events and how we view the rewards, once the process is in place and moving, I am confident it will have little to no impact on a player's decision to play Pathfinder or to continue supporting their local events.

I thought the entire rationale for Con boons in the first place was to help get GMs. There is a rather large disconnect between that rationale and your post above

When is the next of these charity cons? It might be helpful for everyone to know how much time you lot have to work with.

September 16-18. Skal Con.

EDIT: For an event space the size of which we rent from Fantasy Flight Games Event Center, for $1,000.00, it would cost us in excess of $3,000.00, minimum, anywhere else.

And that's assuming we could find a space at this late date.

I thought the entire rationale for Con boons in the first place was to help get GMs. There is a rather large disconnect between that rationale and your post above

Eyup. A little more carrot to get a second table going would be nice.

The more I hear about the concept of "Game Days," the more disappointed I become. I was hoping for a system that would encourage of my players to try out the mantle of GM, thereby allowing our store to grow in terms of the number of tables I can offer and the number of players I can attract. Instead, what we're getting frankly feels more like an effort to remove HQ from small-scale convention planning by transferring that power to Regional Venture-Coordinators, and it doesn't even do that very well.

The biggest problem that I forsee is the hard "10 per quarter" limit. I don't know what the PFS scene looks like out in Seattle, but judging by how the Regional Venture-Coordinators are spread out across the United States according to the contact info page (Great Lakes, Mid Atlantic, Midwest, Northwest, Southeast, Southwest, and abroad), I can only assume that my home lodge in Philadelphia would fall into a hypothetical Northeast region. I honestly don't know; I've never heard of the position before and we're not listed on the page I linked. Assuming we are in a Northeast region, the Northeast includes all of the so-called "Northeast Megalopolis," which includes the cities of Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington D.C. By this measurement, the most densely populated region of the United States is allocated a meager 10 Game Days. 10 Game Days per quarter, a total of 40 a year, split between Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington D.C., plus ALL of the other cities and territories in that region, which includes relatively large cities like Pittsburg and Albany.

I do not envy whomever is appointed to be our Regional Venture-Coordinator.

As written, this system seems poised to make it even more difficult for our region to host small-scale Pathfinder Society games for boon credit, not easier. Because now you're putting tons of stress on a single person to plan and allocate a year's worth of cons fairly and in a way that bolsters all members of a number of independent communities that spam five of the country's largest cities. Just how is someone going to politely tell a PFS Venue that's struggling to establish itself in Delaware that a store in Connecticut needs the support more?

Game Days should be allocated by Venture-Captain, not Regional-Coordinator, and they should be used to by the Venture-Captain to strengthen communities. Not to try and encourage someone living in Upstate New York to take an eight hour drive to DC for a one-day convention.

If there's anything in the Game Day program that I'm missing, please inform me. So far I'm feeling pretty pessimistic about the whole system because it seems utterly ineffective in my opinion.

I've had a new thought:

If the Game Day program is being created to support retail locations and thank them for their efforts towards Paizo's success, then I think the solution is to simply give each "game day" venue a Game Day Package that has boons/support/whathaveyou contained within. They get one per year, to use as they see fit, with advice from Venture staff and Paizo, of course. But, ultimately, what will work for BigNorseWolf may not work for Jolene Danner. They should be the ones who decide how best those packages get used to promote the game they ALREADY promote.

Leave the convention support in place as is (15 tables, minimum, over three days, maximum, etc.). Let that continue to be its own thing. And, frankly, if it lines up that a convention gets support, along with the coordinator deciding to use their Game Day Package at that event as well, so be it; the coordinator should know best.

But if you simply tell me that my store is guaranteed to have a Game Day it can promote this year, you have successfully shut me up. Instead, I will go start planning what that event will look like, hopefully creating some excitement for this game we all love.

I've had a new thought:

If the Game Day program is being created to support retail locations and thank them for their efforts towards Paizo's success, then I think the solution is to simply give each "game day" venue a Game Day Package that has boons/support/whathaveyou contained within. They get one per year, to use as they see fit, with advice from Venture staff and Paizo, of course. But, ultimately, what will work for BigNorseWolf may not work for Jolene Danner. They should be the ones who decide how best those packages get used to promote the game they ALREADY promote.

Leave the convention support in place as is (15 tables, minimum, over three days, maximum, etc.). Let that continue to be its own thing. And, frankly, if it lines up that a convention gets support, along with the coordinator deciding to use their Game Day Package at that event as well, so be it; the coordinator should know best.

But if you simply tell me that my store is guaranteed to have a Game Day it can promote this year, you have successfully shut me up. Instead, I will go start planning what that event will look like, hopefully creating some excitement for this game we all love.

I think this is a great solution. As an organizer that has a ton of store support already at my usual venue I'd definitely be passing that kind of thing onto one of our conventions. Your Mom's Basement gave us 7 tables for a "Pathfinder appreciation day" they got us cake and gave us products to raffle off!

Drogon wrote:

I've had a new thought:

If the Game Day program is being created to support retail locations and thank them for their efforts towards Paizo's success, then I think the solution is to simply give each "game day" venue a Game Day Package that has boons/support/whathaveyou contained within. They get one per year, to use as they see fit, with advice from Venture staff and Paizo, of course. But, ultimately, what will work for BigNorseWolf may not work for Jolene Danner. They should be the ones who decide how best those packages get used to promote the game they ALREADY promote.

Leave the convention support in place as is (15 tables, minimum, over three days, maximum, etc.). Let that continue to be its own thing. And, frankly, if it lines up that a convention gets support, along with the coordinator deciding to use their Game Day Package at that event as well, so be it; the coordinator should know best.

But if you simply tell me that my store is guaranteed to have a Game Day it can promote this year, you have successfully shut me up. Instead, I will go start planning what that event will look like, hopefully creating some excitement for this game we all love.

I think this is a great solution. As an organizer that has a ton of store support already at my usual venue I'd definitely be passing that kind of thing onto one of our conventions. Your Mom's Basement gave us 7 tables for a "Pathfinder appreciation day" they got us cake and gave us products to raffle off!

I like the theory behind this, but how would this be propagated? I co-organize the PFS gamedays for a store that is very "hands off" when it comes to managing our gameday, yet it is our most popular venue of PFS where I live. VOs? The store? The contact? Who gets it?

Removed a post. Folks, this is clearly pushing a few people's buttons, but I'm going to remind folks to be civil and not jump to conclusions. Dial the hostility back, formulate your words, then post. Ask questions. We'll do our best to answer and address your concerns.

I live in that North-East area and am super concerned with that 10 game-day's quarterly bit. I don't believe it's enough to spread the love fairly. There is a "con" season where more people have leave, are able to drive, etc and can attend them. A game-day in Q4 is different from a game-day in Q2, the Q2 is probably worth more due to increased availability of attendees. Those Q2 game-days locations are likely to draw better than those Q4 game-days, then next year when plans are drawn up that poor place that got assigned the Q4 day gets skipped for poor attendance due to being given a less desirable time.

Every region is a little different. For a place like Arizona you'd probably see an uptick in attendance when school isn't in session and people are taking summer vacations, but there isn't a large undesirable season. In Washington State, you get all four seasons, but you're unlikely to have a blizzard shut a city down.

If you live in the Midwest you have to worry about intense thunderstorms and tornadoes during the summer lowering attendance, and in the upper mid-west you get blizzards that shut everything down. On the southeast coast you have hurricane season in the fall. In these examples places with intense seasons are disadvantaged as if you are given a game-day during that season and your game-day gets weathered out or is open but with lowered attendance, once the next round of choosing comes around, do you think they're just going to to get a prime spot after poor attendance?

Relating this to my first paragraph, I live in Philadelphia. We've been trying to get as many people active in society as possible. Our city just doesn't have a whole ton of places to play. In sharing our 40 game-days yearly with the rest of the Northeast group will we just get one game-day in Q4, have it snowed out, and get told better luck next time? I give this example in my city but it literally could be any regions issue.

Specifically for my city, Philadelphia just doesn't have many conventions. On the east coast many conventions are shunted to NYC or Baltimore due to bigger facilities. That being the case we don't have gaming or geeky conventions with any regularity. The only two I can think of are Too Many Games (Which isn't actually in Philadelphia), and the Touring Wizard-World Comic-con which from my understanding doesn't actually let you play your Wizard. Changing the definition of convention makes it so the only place that consistently does pathfinder conventions in the Philadelphia area can't be a convention site and is relegated to a game-day.

Our lodge isn't responsible for the demographics and resources of our city. We're responsible for trying to get as many people to have fun as possible. This policy can help smaller towns get more exposure, but for where I play it hurts our appeal.

Some one mentioned up thread that they did not like the appearance of "Apply to your RVC, and if they like you they will hook you up." (or something like that.)

I think this is missing out that the previous system was (As far as I can tell, I am new enough that I haven't actually organized a con under the old system) "Go to your VO, and they will send your request to Tonya along with every one else in the world and Tonya will pick from that the number of cons that get support."

They have already said 10 is a base number for the pilot program. I personally would like to see the prize support, charity support, and boon support completely delinked, so that there are no game days or cons (especially since the definition of the term game day has different connotations regionally.) So there are just supported PFS gatherings, rated by size and frequency, with or without prize / charity support.

I believe that rather than taking offense at the current system, which I believe was intended to benefit the community by testing the concept of decentralizing authority, something that is not only good, but increasingly necessary, can we please focus on ways in which the system could be improved?

Concerns I see presented:

The current system is vulnerable to the appearance of favoritism.
The current system has no guarentee that an event over a certain size will receive support (I see no evidence that the old system had that guarentee either.)
The current system is too small (It's a pilot program, it is supposed to start small....)
The current system, with the use of the name game day, appears to establish a ranking of events that prioritizes some.
The current system (unintentionally?) couples charity support to gift certificate support.

Sugguested solutions would (In my opinion) need to address the following needs of Paizo.

As much work as possible must be offloaded from Tonya onto the RVCs. That is why they were created.
Paizo needs to have a way to ration how much of any given support they distribute to preserve it's value. (Yes, this includes player and GM boons. They are no longer incentives if there is more of them out there than there are players.)
Paizo needs to be able to ration distribution of support such that an areas support is roughly proportional to it's player base.

Please feel free to quote and augment this list.

I think this is missing out that the previous system was (As far as I can tell, I am new enough that I haven't actually organized a con under the old system) "Go to your VO, and they will send your request to Tonya along with every one else in the world and Tonya will pick from that the number of cons that get support."

Incorrect.

The previous system was purely metrics:

1 - You must have at least 15 tables scheduled for your event.

2 - Your event cannot be longer than three consecutive days to hit that 15 tables.

3 - Submit your application with plenty of lead time for Paizo to put your request together and act on it.

The problem with this was that many events that qualified didn't have much lead time, or couldn't quite get to the 15 table minimum. And, honestly, there are many areas that will never even get close to 15 tables, but the players would never be able to travel to a convention to get these coveted boons.

Concerns I see presented:

The current system is vulnerable to the appearance of favoritism.
The current system has no guarentee that an event over a certain size will receive support (I see no evidence that the old system had that guarentee either.)
The current system is too small (It's a pilot program, it is supposed to start small....)
The current system, with the use of the name game day, appears to establish a ranking of events that prioritizes some.
The current system (unintentionally?) couples charity support to gift certificate support.

The problem with using the "its a pilot program" argument is that the change has the potential to deny Con rewards that conventions going on now need to attract a crowd. The transition will have repercussions regardless of whether it is a permanent policy or a pilot program.

I can speak from experience that Philadelphia has never had a problem getting our conventions approved, despite only just meeting the minimum requirements. (15 tables over 3 days)

Jolene Danner wrote:

Drogon wrote:

I've had a new thought:

If the Game Day program is being created to support retail locations and thank them for their efforts towards Paizo's success, then I think the solution is to simply give each "game day" venue a Game Day Package that has boons/support/whathaveyou contained within. They get one per year, to use as they see fit, with advice from Venture staff and Paizo, of course. But, ultimately, what will work for BigNorseWolf may not work for Jolene Danner. They should be the ones who decide how best those packages get used to promote the game they ALREADY promote.

Leave the convention support in place as is (15 tables, minimum, over three days, maximum, etc.). Let that continue to be its own thing. And, frankly, if it lines up that a convention gets support, along with the coordinator deciding to use their Game Day Package at that event as well, so be it; the coordinator should know best.

But if you simply tell me that my store is guaranteed to have a Game Day it can promote this year, you have successfully shut me up. Instead, I will go start planning what that event will look like, hopefully creating some excitement for this game we all love.

I think this is a great solution. As an organizer that has a ton of store support already at my usual venue I'd definitely be passing that kind of thing onto one of our conventions. Your Mom's Basement gave us 7 tables for a "Pathfinder appreciation day" they got us cake and gave us products to raffle off!

I like the theory behind this, but how would this be propagated? I co-organize the PFS gamedays for a store that is very "hands off" when it comes to managing our gameday, yet it is our most popular venue of PFS where I live. VOs? The store? The contact? Who gets it?

An application process should solve that.

Who is running the event?

When is the event scheduled?

Where is the event hosted?

That last question should weed out any duplication.

Joanna Gore wrote:

If I can only support two of them, I don't know if the others are going to survive.

I know everyone like prizes and rewards. There is no arguing that fact, but have some faith in your players. The vast majority of people don't play PFS because of some piece of paper. Its the game they love and the people they enjoy playing with that brings them back. Boons and other prizes are just the icing on an otherwise very tasty and satisfying cake. While it might require an adjustment in how we approach events and how we view the rewards, once the process is in place and moving, I am confident it will have little to no impact on a player's decision to play Pathfinder or to continue supporting their local events.

What about scenario support? GM's do their thing because they enjoy GM'ing and providing fun for others. Using SkalCon as an example, under the new rules it would appear that it'll get downgraded to a gameday (which is breathtakingly lame, but I digress), will the people taking time to GM at SkalCon get scenario support from Paizo? GM's already are taking time out of their schedules to help out at conventions Game Days, and now are they also being asked to shell out more of their own money to GM at an event that they volunteering for. If so, that seems to be a big disincentive to me.

That being said, I'm willing to wait and see how things play out.

Applying for Game Day support:

*Contact your local VO. There is a form for the VO to fill out, which gives the basic event information.
*Provide information about your venue to assist the RVC in their selection. Some good things to know are:

What type of Game Day are you applying for?
How long have you been running PFS in your venue?
What is your average number of tables?
How many unique attendees are at your events?
What is the gaming scene in your community? (to help us see where PFS fits into the bigger picture)
Any other information that gives us a sense of how the Game Day supports the venue/region.

So, how does this apply to those people like me, who are both a VO (VA does count as a VO, yes?) and the coordinator, at least in significant part, for a location?

Also, is there a list , somewhere, defining "types" for Game Days?

Jared Thaler wrote:

Concerns I see presented:

The current system is vulnerable to the appearance of favoritism.
The current system has no guarentee that an event over a certain size will receive support (I see no evidence that the old system had that guarentee either.)
The current system is too small (It's a pilot program, it is supposed to start small....)
The current system, with the use of the name game day, appears to establish a ranking of events that prioritizes some.
The current system (unintentionally?) couples charity support to gift certificate support.

The problem with using the "its a pilot program" argument is that the change has the potential to deny Con rewards that conventions going on now need to attract a crowd. The transition will have repercussions regardless of whether it is a permanent policy or a pilot program.

I can speak from experience that Philadelphia has never had a problem getting our conventions approved, despite only just meeting the minimum requirements. (15 tables over 3 days)

This absolutely sounds like a pilot program, although it seems to be missing a couple of essential characteristics of a well-designed pilot. I personally suspect that the game day vs. convention problem, however serious, was a complete mistake and/or misunderstanding on someone's part and is by far the easiest portion of this to fix!