Writing a New Entry for Factions

Monday, January 19, 2015

There are many central features of the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign that have changed little if at all over the better part of a decade since it began. The amount earned by a Day Job and the item value threshold unlocked by having a certain amount of Fame remain the same, and I don't believe a single word has changed in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play's entries about alignment and how to calculate one's hit point total (with the exception of adding new classes to the list). Perhaps the most dramatic change over the years beyond the extraordinary growth in the list of venture-captains and venture-lieutenants is how the campaign has treated factions.

For a long time, five factions vied for control of Absalom and sent their respective agents one or two tasks to accomplish during each scenario. It was certainly nice to hear from one's faction leader regularly, and many found it reassuring that they could try to contribute in some small way to the faction's fortunes no matter where adventure took them. Things started getting pretty tricky when another five factions joined the scene at the start of Season 3. Not only was it unrealistic to provide a faction goal for every scenario for every faction (e.g. Does the Lantern Lodge really have an interest in this Azlanti observatory or Qadiran shipwreck?), but faction missions were becoming more of a burden at the table as GMs printed and distributed ten handouts. It became increasingly apparent that one could just complete his faction mission(s), fail the main task the Society had assigned, and get away with most of the rewards, which did not sit well with many. Were there some great faction missions? Absolutely. Without a doubt, though, many faction missions proved forgettable and inconsequential but for the reward they gave. I think many who participated in the campaign a few years ago remember the all-too-common chorus of "I search this room for a [minor MacGuffin]. Is there one in here? I take 20."

Something needed to change, and beginning in Season 5, faction leaders stopped distributing faction missions during every scenario. Faction leaders began sending letters several times over the course of the season to inform their agents what the faction's short-term goals were and if there were any special opportunities coming up. Each faction then had special opportunities—usually more involved than a typical faction mission from past seasons—in a handful of scenarios for that season, and accomplishing one of these earned the PC a special boon. Of course, this encountered its own problems. Distributing the letters in a way that was both reliable and not a burden on GMs was difficult. Introducing faction ties in some scenarios inadvertently pushed some players to play only members of that faction in those adventures, making it harder to muster tables. Not having something to do more often than not made factions feel less important. What's more, juggling which faction appeared how often, in what level ranges, and doing suitably flashy things made outlining and developing scenarios more difficult.

Every campaign change upsets players' expectations and forces participants to adapt to something new, and certainly after the fairly substantial changes that occurred at the beginning of Season 5, the Pathfinder Society team is cognizant of the effects of announcing another revision to operating procedure. On the other hand there are numerous issues that have developed gradually that need our attention, and we first announced those in a blog several months ago. If you have not taken the opportunity to read the Factions part of that blog, I encourage you to take a few minutes to do so.

All caught up? Let's take a look at a few of the Faction Journal card entries in the works, starting with several of the goals for the Silver Crusade. This faction is the iconic good-guy faction, so my aim is to ensure that the faction journal rewards the PC for doing things that make a lot of good-guy sense. Even where there are faction goals that might be a little strange, each card has a paragraph or two describing the faction's aims in more detail to provide the necessary context.

▢▢ Defeat an outsider that has the evil subtype and whose Challenge Rating is at least equal to your character level.
▢▢ Defeat an undead creature whose Challenge Rating is at least equal to your character level.

I think it's safe to say that both of these fit the good-guy trope, and both of these are common enough that many scenarios should give a Silver Crusade faction PC a fair opportunity to fulfill one or both of these. Of course, it's important to be aware that with few exceptions, a PC can only check one box per adventure—our way of stretching out the accomplishments over multiple scenarios and preventing someone from earning the maximum rewards before reaching 2nd-level. So why do these each have two checkboxes? Well, some faction goals are more common or easier to accomplish than others, and your faction is not suitably impressed by or improved by one such achievement. After all, killing your first demon might have been incidental or a fluke; killing a second one in a later adventure proves that you take fiend slaying seriously. Let's look at something without multiple checkboxes.

▢ Spend an amount of gold equal to at least 100 times your character level on spellcasting services used on spells with the healing descriptor for another PC. You may instead purchase and expend material components or a single-use magic item that costs the same amount for that PC.

Ah, now this is a little tougher in part because it requires the faction PC to pay out of pocket—for a good cause, admittedly. You shouldn't have to do that more than once in the name of boons, but giving your friend a potion of cure serious wounds in a time of need is something that makes Ollysta Zadrian smile. Of course there are bound to be occasional goals that don't come up often enough or that you'd rather not complete. For that, we have one special opportunity.

▢▢▢▢▢ When you are the GM for any event that grants 1 or more XP, you may check one of this boon's boxes. If you have multiple faction cards, you may only check a box on one of them each time you are the GM. Once all five boxes are checked, you receive faction rewards on this card as though you had completed two additional faction goals.

Aha, flexibility and a GM reward all rolled into one! So why are we doing this? What's the payoff? There are three tiers of reward, acquired when one completes two, five, and eight goals respectively. As I'm writing these, I'm aiming to have each reward reflect the flavor of the faction and make somebody from that faction feel that she's reaping the benefits of her affiliation—ideally during every scenario. For example, the Exchange faction's rewards make it easier to make money and easier to receive discounts on equipment; honestly, shouldn't the PCs belonging to the "money faction" have felt a little more wealthy all along? What's more, each top-tier reward grants benefits to the whole table, allowing a truly successful faction PC to flaunt her accomplishments and share the wealth. Let's see what the Silver Crusade has to offer.

Soldier of Peace (two goals): You reduce the penalty on attack rolls to deal nonlethal damage with lethal weapons by 2; if you already suffer no penalty on such an attack, you instead deal 1 additional point of nonlethal damage. Once per adventure before casting a spell, you may choose to replace half of the lethal damage dealt with an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

Anointed (five goals): You gain a +2 sacred bonus on Charisma-based checks made against good creatures and saving throws against spells and effects with the evil descriptor. Once per scenario as a swift action, you may grant a weapon you wield the benefits of bless weapon for one round.

Paragon (eight goals): When you or an ally spends Prestige Points to purchase the spellcasting service raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection, reduce the Prestige Point cost by 25% (rounded up). When you cast any of these spells, you may reduce the cost of the material component by 25%. When activating either the Soldier of Peace or Anointed boon, you may choose to grant the benefit to one ally you can see instead of receiving it yourself.

Looking at these, the more Silver Crusade PCs act like good guys and vanquishers of evil, the better they become at being good guys and vanquishing evil. Most of the benefits are ones a PC might use in a typical adventure, and many of the goals are likely to appear even when randomly selecting which adventure to play next (even a module). Nice! The boons and goals above are still in the works and may have to change to fit on the Faction Journal card, but hopefully this gives you a good sense of where this project is going. We're aiming to have these out in the wild in early February.

Are there themes that you would like to see appear among your favorite faction's goals or rewards? Tell me about it here!

John Compton
Developer

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Tags: Factions Pathfinder Society
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Silver Crusade

Do Liberty's Edge / Andoran faction now get a morale bonus for chanting "An-do-ran!" (U-S-A), or just exclaiming "Andoran!" or "Freedom!"? If not, rolling a bard to get morale bonus for that.

5/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I think it's pronounced, "FREEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDOMMMMMMMMM!!!!!"

Lantern Lodge 5/5

4 people marked this as a favorite.

My only question is "Why did the Shadow Lodge get reskinned as the Silver Crusade?"

#TorchWasRight, #explorereportCOOPERATE

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Captain, Netherlands aka Woran

I've been thinking about it a little while. I dont have any real ideas what to give the factions, as long as everything balances out between them. It would be a shame if the boons would become part of the min/max process.

Also, I would love it if factions really had a strong thematic boon. The ideas of some people to give a character a small knowledge check bonus that fits in with the theme of the faction sits really well with me.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Cao Phen wrote:

I am assuming that Adventure Paths/Modules will only supply a single check for the whole event, correct?

Moreover, if you complete the checkbox during the scenario, can you use a boon gained for that scenario, or do you have to wait until the next one.

Ex: You killed an undead, it gives you the second box for 5 goals and the Anointed boon. You come across a demon in the next combat, can you use the Bless Weapon ability at that time?

If you change factions and change back, do your checkboxes reset?

I'm reading two great questions here.

I have tinkered with a PC being able to check up to two boxes per adventure that grants 3 XP (1.5 on slow track), but I have not finalized that. How much rules language I can include on the card depends a lot on how much space everything else takes up.

I am leaning toward any new awards being earned at the conclusion of the scenario, when the PC would actually have the opportunity to meet with her faction leader and receive these faction-granted resources. I'm open to discussing the pros and cons of this.

4/5

Perhaps this suggestion is a bit metagamy, but could we have a goal on the card of playing with new players? I would love for there to be more motivation to get the experienced players to be encouraging and patient with new players. Perhaps we could check off a box if someone at the table is still on their first (#-1) character provided that character is not above 3rd level yet.

Perhaps someone more clever than I can also think of how to reward characters for convincing new players to join their faction so that we have fewer default Grand Lodge characters.

4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

Mimo Tomblebur wrote:
Perhaps someone more clever than I can also think of how to reward characters for convincing new players to join their faction so that we have fewer default Grand Lodge characters.

Have to have a way of mitigating the PP lose first.

Guide to Organized Play, pg 17 wrote:
Changing your faction costs a number of Prestige Points equal to 3 times your character level, but does not alter your Fame score.

Since only GMs always get 2 PP per scenario, this loss can be substantial. At the very least, make it so that if they have less than that amount of PP then they go to 0 PP -- it isn't like their old faction would have done that much for them in that case anyways.

On the other hand, you don't want to reward people hopping from faction to faction on a whim. The person presumably has to stay with that faction for a while in order for the faction to gain from it.

BTW: Not everyone in Grand Lodge are there by default.

Silver Crusade

I take "new player" to mean someone who is not 2 yet. They can still switch factions without taking a pp hit because of the rebuild.

4/5

Hrothdane wrote:
I take "new player" to mean someone who is not 2 yet. They can still switch factions without taking a pp hit because of the rebuild.

Yes, that is what I ment...while it is still free.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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To paraphrase and respond to a few other suggestions (keep them up!):

Do Liberty's Edge faction PCs fulfill a goal by chanting freedom slogans? Actually, the current version does include something like that because I know how much these faction PCs enjoy shouting liberty jingles. It's a little more rigorous than that, but it should strike a similar chord.

The Exchange faction's top award should help the other PCs make money, too. I agree! In a way, the Exchange faction's rewards are fairly straightforward yet both address commonly requested features and grant a monetary edge—enough to make an Exchange faction PC feel like he has negotiated a good deal, but not so much that it seriously upsets the wealth-by-level standards. I think you'll like the slight twist on how I'm writing this.

Can the Silver Crusade "buy a guy some healing magic" goal also work on NPCs? It should. That's a good addition.

Justin Riddler wrote:

-sovereign court: bonus cohort slots or a unique cohort?

-scarab sages: perhaps a minor legend lore effect to divine the past/scenario background?
-dark archive: ability to use spellcraft without detect magic or a once per scenario identify effect?

Very cool ideas!

Scarab Sages

I am excited about this change and think it is great! Factions will mean a bit more to players on a regular basis, while not taking away from the mission as a whole.

One thing, though. What does it mean what you say "defeat an undead"?
aka - if the creature is that high level, it is likely that more than one PC is attacking it. Does defeat mean take it out by yourself, or just contribute to taking it out? Does that mean damaging, or would inhibiting the creature long enough for other party members to kill it work?

And to note - when you put limitations such as "the killing blow" - it can hurt the party because the player will say "don't kill it! I need to kill it to check off my faction box!"

That said, I am really excited about this and can't wait to see what you guys come up with.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Liberties edge:

Goals for liberties edge: Free slaves, kill/stop slavers, expose corrupt politicians, remove a corrupt authority figure from power, place head in bag.

Rewards: Bonus to sunder/ignore DR, allow arrows/bullets to do full damage to chains and ropes (so they can do the cool shoot the rope on the guy about to be hanged or shoot the chains off of someone), allow an escaping slave to use your skill bonuses to play Harriet Tubman

Scarab sages

Goals: Make a dc 15+ level knowledge check for purposes other than identifying a monster. Find a book, inscription or tablet at least 500 years old, give a noble or ruler important information

Rewards: "Sleep with it under my pillow"...you don't need to spend 1d4 rounds to use a pathfinder chronicle. Become specialized in a knowledge skill. +2 reflex saves vs traps.

Dark Archive Recruit a librarian that might survive. Recover a dangerous artifact... for study.

+2 bonus on social checks to recruit librarians, "Staring contest with the void" reduce the total rolled on the chart vs confusion by 10, Only misidentify a cursed item if you miss the check by 5 instead of 10. +2 vs curses.

Shadow lodge: bring back a character that has been marked as dead.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Mimo Tomblebur wrote:

Perhaps this suggestion is a bit metagamy, but could we have a goal on the card of playing with new players? I would love for there to be more motivation to get the experienced players to be encouraging and patient with new players. Perhaps we could check off a box if someone at the table is still on their first (#-1) character provided that character is not above 3rd level yet.

Perhaps someone more clever than I can also think of how to reward characters for convincing new players to join their faction so that we have fewer default Grand Lodge characters.

Actually, yes. Several of the factions that are more interested in recruiting new members do have a goal tied to recruiting other PCs to join at a reduced Prestige Point cost. Some factions also have goals tied to recruiting NPCs to aid the faction.

Liberty's Edge

You guys have seriously made this all WAY too complicated. As if there wasn't enough bookkeeping involved already.
Oi.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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Deidre Tiriel wrote:

I am excited about this change and think it is great! Factions will mean a bit more to players on a regular basis, while not taking away from the mission as a whole.

One thing, though. What does it mean what you say "defeat an undead"?
aka - if the creature is that high level, it is likely that more than one PC is attacking it. Does defeat mean take it out by yourself, or just contribute to taking it out? Does that mean damaging, or would inhibiting the creature long enough for other party members to kill it work?

And to note - when you put limitations such as "the killing blow" - it can hurt the party because the player will say "don't kill it! I need to kill it to check off my faction box!"

That said, I am really excited about this and can't wait to see what you guys come up with.

Because these cards are supposed to be open-ended enough to be relevant in many different scenarios—including some that I might not even remember they could be good for—the language for some of the goals is a little open to interpretation. Defeating an evil outsider might mean killing it, banishing it, binding it for eternity, or tricking it into fighting another monster that ultimately kills it (akin to how the Rewards entry in recent scenarios handles "defeating" an encounter). What's more, not every faction PC is going to pack the same amount of damage-dealing, killing-blow-striking potential, and I don't want a fiend-slaying goal to be something that a paladin can do easily but a typical bard would never be able to manage; I know my high-level Liberty's Edge bard's damage options are limited to 1d6 damage per round with a +[single digit] bonus to hit. So long as the PC contributed to a broad combat goal's completion, she has fulfilled that goal.

Other goals have very clear-cut rules on how they're fulfilled.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

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Blackfoot wrote:

You guys have seriously made this all WAY too complicated. As if there wasn't enough bookkeeping involved already.

Oi.

Thanks for the feedback but I think we will actually wait to see this completely optional system in use in at least one reported game before we declare it too complicated and change it up.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond aka Slothsy

John Compton wrote:

To paraphrase and respond to a few other suggestions (keep them up!):

Do Liberty's Edge faction PCs fulfill a goal by chanting freedom slogans? Actually, the current version does include something like that because I know how much these faction PCs enjoy shouting liberty jingles. It's a little more rigorous than that, but it should strike a similar chord.

Very cool ideas!

Was there a secret camera on the Ver'Ha siblings' (all former Andoran, now Silver Crusaders elves) retirement party for Legacy of the Stonelords? "For Andoran!" was our victory chant!

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It's clear that you've thought about this a lot. Kudos. This will make playing PFS a lot more fun, and it won't burden the GMs overmuch.

Sovereign Court 4/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Georgia—Atlanta aka The Masked Ferret

I am looking forward to seeing how these apply. All of my Taldor characters are looking forward to see how they can help advance the cause of Taldor.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Michael Brock wrote:
The plan is to have an individual printout for each of the factions that are more than just another Chronicle sheet. Something akin to a half page, double sided document similar to what is used for quests at Gen Con and PAX.. The plan is also to put them up for download so they can be downloaded by anyone at anytime.

Something the size of a chronicle sheet would actually be preferable over something smaller since it makes organization easier. When your character consists of several dozen 8.5x11 sheets, adding a smaller sheet is more of a burden than a benefit.

Sovereign Court 3/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
unforgivn wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
The plan is to have an individual printout for each of the factions that are more than just another Chronicle sheet. Something akin to a half page, double sided document similar to what is used for quests at Gen Con and PAX.. The plan is also to put them up for download so they can be downloaded by anyone at anytime.
Something the size of a chronicle sheet would actually be preferable over something smaller since it makes organization easier. When your character consists of several dozen 8.5x11 sheets, adding a smaller sheet is more of a burden than a benefit.

I imagine if you are printing at home, you can put both half-sheets on a single sided page.

4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

I've been thinking about it, and I hope people have more than a year to complete these tasks.

You need at least 8 tasks complete to get the best reward. That is playing about once a month, assuming at least a couple of scenarios don't give you an opportunity to fill in a box. Depending on how many of those tasks require multiple instances (like the SC defeating an evil outsider), it could stretch out the minimum number of scenarios required even more.

If I'm understanding this correctly, it also looks like the GM reward can be put on any card rather than the one for the character that is getting the chronicle for that session. Might want to require that it be the same character that gets the chronicle.

2/5

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like the sound of it , seems like it will encourage Role playing by giving minor perks for doing it.

Sovereign Court

Michael Brock wrote:
The plan is to have an individual printout for each of the factions that are more than just another Chronicle sheet. Something akin to a half page, double sided document similar to what is used for quests at Gen Con and PAX.. The plan is also to put them up for download so they can be downloaded by anyone at anytime.

Oooohh, I was hoping you'd say something like that! Super excited to see this coming into the world (whatever shape it is in when it does).

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BretI wrote:

I've been thinking about it, and I hope people have more than a year to complete these tasks.

You need at least 8 tasks complete to get the best reward. That is playing about once a month, assuming at least a couple of scenarios don't give you an opportunity to fill in a box. Depending on how many of those tasks require multiple instances (like the SC defeating an evil outsider), it could stretch out the minimum number of scenarios required even more.

If I'm understanding this correctly, it also looks like the GM reward can be put on any card rather than the one for the character that is getting the chronicle for that session. Might want to require that it be the same character that gets the chronicle.

I'm not answering this question specifically, as I myself am not sure of the answer.

However, I do want to say, that not every character will be able to get every single reward they are eligible for.

I have 18 characters, 5 of which are Seekers and one of which is dead. Two of which are already 10th level. It is completely illogical for me to expect that I'll be able to complete the faction cards of the remaining 9 characters throughout the year.

Grand Lodge 3/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Ireland—Newtownabbey aka Ampersandrew

BretI wrote:

I've been thinking about it, and I hope people have more than a year to complete these tasks.

You need at least 8 tasks complete to get the best reward. That is playing about once a month, assuming at least a couple of scenarios don't give you an opportunity to fill in a box. Depending on how many of those tasks require multiple instances (like the SC defeating an evil outsider), it could stretch out the minimum number of scenarios required even more.

If you play once a month and you're spreading games round multiple characters, you're either going to be getting lots of first tier faction rewards, or no faction rewards. You certainly will not be getting the top tier faction rewards. Playing at that rate, if you want the top tier faction reward, you're going to have to focus on one character. Even then it might be touch and go, it depends how many multiple ticks you need and how many of your scenarios just don't provide an opportunity to tick something you haven't got yet.

BretI wrote:
If I'm understanding this correctly, it also looks like the GM reward can be put on any card rather than the one for the character that is getting the chronicle for that session. Might want to require that it be the same character that gets the chronicle.

Or not. I don't see any reason to add that restriction.

4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

Andrew Wilson wrote:
BretI wrote:

I've been thinking about it, and I hope people have more than a year to complete these tasks.

You need at least 8 tasks complete to get the best reward. That is playing about once a month, assuming at least a couple of scenarios don't give you an opportunity to fill in a box. Depending on how many of those tasks require multiple instances (like the SC defeating an evil outsider), it could stretch out the minimum number of scenarios required even more.

If you play once a month and you're spreading games round multiple characters, you're either going to be getting lots of first tier faction rewards, or no faction rewards. You certainly will not be getting the top tier faction rewards. Playing at that rate, if you want the top tier faction reward, you're going to have to focus on one character. Even then it might be touch and go, it depends how many multiple ticks you need and how many of your scenarios just don't provide an opportunity to tick something you haven't got yet.

I was thinking that even focusing on a single character, someone that is doing it once a month may have a tough time completing it over the course of a year. Playing bi-weekly, I suspect you could pretty reliably get the top reward on one character but then you are going through scenarios as fast as they are released.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Remember its not always someone's choice to focus on a single character. In a year its not that uncommon to have to switch characters because you can't get in higher level games anymore

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BretI wrote:
Andrew Wilson wrote:
BretI wrote:

I've been thinking about it, and I hope people have more than a year to complete these tasks.

You need at least 8 tasks complete to get the best reward. That is playing about once a month, assuming at least a couple of scenarios don't give you an opportunity to fill in a box. Depending on how many of those tasks require multiple instances (like the SC defeating an evil outsider), it could stretch out the minimum number of scenarios required even more.

If you play once a month and you're spreading games round multiple characters, you're either going to be getting lots of first tier faction rewards, or no faction rewards. You certainly will not be getting the top tier faction rewards. Playing at that rate, if you want the top tier faction reward, you're going to have to focus on one character. Even then it might be touch and go, it depends how many multiple ticks you need and how many of your scenarios just don't provide an opportunity to tick something you haven't got yet.
I was thinking that even focusing on a single character, someone that is doing it once a month may have a tough time completing it over the course of a year. Playing bi-weekly, I suspect you could pretty reliably get the top reward on one character but then you are going through scenarios as fast as they are released.

And this is ok.

Not all rewards are going to be available for all characters all the time.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Looking forward to seeing the finished cards, and I think this sounds like a great way to help make people's factions more relevant than they have been recently.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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I met with some local venture-officers last night and distributed drafts of the faction journals to get some immediate feedback (and listen to them constructively poke small holes in the wording of certain goals) before playing part of an Emerald Spire level. We had four factions represented, and I think three factions found clear opportunities to fulfill conditions; the Liberty's Edge PC didn't find whole lot to work with in this level due to the absence of slavers, hostages, and crowds to lecture on the evils of tyranny, yet he expressed that his faction's goals felt broad enough that he could accomplish most of them in a pretty generous number of scenarios.

I know the more goals one accomplishes, the harder it will be to lock in those last couple check boxes after picking off the low-hanging fruit, yet I'm glad to know that an early playtest is returning generally positive feedback and feeling like it's possible to fulfill objectives right out of the gate.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I like that as a silver crusader your faction doesn't give a hoot if you use your own spells to provide a feast for the poor, cure the blind and heal a cripple, but they'll pat you on the back for paying a priest of Lamashtu to heal a tiefling.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, New Zealand—Dunedin aka dinketry

I love this idea. I'm really very excited to play my characters again in order to gain meaningful advancement within my Factions. I think that will be a large draw to most people regarding these new gaming opportunities.

I would hesitate as a GM, however, and say that this will make things more complex to adjudicate. At the end of a gaming session, filling in chronicle sheets, checking character's inventory sheets, rewarding day job checks, ruling on purchases, double-checking prestige purchases, removing curses, and helping people to level up all still need to happen. I can completely foresee players demanding GMs to tick boxes so that they can complete tiered Faction rewards as something that may ultimately overwhelm a GM, especially at a busy convention.

Would it be possible to allow for the "ticking off of faction boxes" to occur online, such as the general session recordings already are recorded? It may be too far down the track at this point to roll that out currently, but it may be helpful to harried GMs in the future. And it might allow for a bit more information to be found online about specific characters under player's profiles.

Just a thought. Still very excited about all of this, though.

-Dink

Sovereign Court 3/5

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gnoams wrote:
I like that as a silver crusader your faction doesn't give a hoot if you use your own spells to provide a feast for the poor, cure the blind and heal a cripple, but they'll pat you on the back for paying a priest of Lamashtu to heal a tiefling.

Well, everyone expects the Silver Crusade guy to do those anyway. It is their job. They were given divine powers by their deity for that purpose.

It is showing true compassion, sacrifice and understanding of redemption to forego worldy goods for the benefit of the damned.

These aren't participation prizes.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

KingOfAnything wrote:
gnoams wrote:
I like that as a silver crusader your faction doesn't give a hoot if you use your own spells to provide a feast for the poor, cure the blind and heal a cripple, but they'll pat you on the back for paying a priest of Lamashtu to heal a tiefling.

Well, everyone expects the Silver Crusade guy to do those anyway. It is their job. They were given divine powers by their deity for that purpose.

It is showing true compassion, sacrifice and understanding of redemption to forego worldy goods for the benefit of the damned.

These aren't participation prizes.

...my point was that you could make a big donation to the evil church of evilness to get a healing spell cast on a demonspawn, and the silver crusade would approve of this action. I know pfs hates to leave things up to individual GM choice, but it would be nice if GMs could give players points for doing actions that go with the spirit of their faction and deny players points that might meet the letter of the deed, but violate the spirit of what they stand for.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
KingOfAnything wrote:
gnoams wrote:
I like that as a silver crusader your faction doesn't give a hoot if you use your own spells to provide a feast for the poor, cure the blind and heal a cripple, but they'll pat you on the back for paying a priest of Lamashtu to heal a tiefling.

Well, everyone expects the Silver Crusade guy to do those anyway. It is their job. They were given divine powers by their deity for that purpose.

It is showing true compassion, sacrifice and understanding of redemption to forego worldy goods for the benefit of the damned.

These aren't participation prizes.

Just want to add not everyone in the Silver Crusade have divine powers, they just need the desire to help people.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
gnoams wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
gnoams wrote:
I like that as a silver crusader your faction doesn't give a hoot if you use your own spells to provide a feast for the poor, cure the blind and heal a cripple, but they'll pat you on the back for paying a priest of Lamashtu to heal a tiefling.

Well, everyone expects the Silver Crusade guy to do those anyway. It is their job. They were given divine powers by their deity for that purpose.

It is showing true compassion, sacrifice and understanding of redemption to forego worldy goods for the benefit of the damned.

These aren't participation prizes.

...my point was that you could make a big donation to the evil church of evilness to get a healing spell cast on a demonspawn, and the silver crusade would approve of this action. I know pfs hates to leave things up to individual GM choice, but it would be nice if GMs could give players points for doing actions that go with the spirit of their faction and deny players points that might meet the letter of the deed, but violate the spirit of what they stand for.

But what if by helping the tiefling and showing compassion they turn from evil ways.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Azouth wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
gnoams wrote:
I like that as a silver crusader your faction doesn't give a hoot if you use your own spells to provide a feast for the poor, cure the blind and heal a cripple, but they'll pat you on the back for paying a priest of Lamashtu to heal a tiefling.

Well, everyone expects the Silver Crusade guy to do those anyway. It is their job. They were given divine powers by their deity for that purpose.

It is showing true compassion, sacrifice and understanding of redemption to forego worldy goods for the benefit of the damned.

These aren't participation prizes.

Just want to add not everyone in the Silver Crusade have divine powers, they just need the desire to help people.

Yes, but that quote was in direct response to someone commenting that you don't get a pat on the back for using your own spells.

Sovereign Court 3/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
gnoams wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
gnoams wrote:
I like that as a silver crusader your faction doesn't give a hoot if you use your own spells to provide a feast for the poor, cure the blind and heal a cripple, but they'll pat you on the back for paying a priest of Lamashtu to heal a tiefling.

Well, everyone expects the Silver Crusade guy to do those anyway. It is their job. They were given divine powers by their deity for that purpose.

It is showing true compassion, sacrifice and understanding of redemption to forego worldy goods for the benefit of the damned.

These aren't participation prizes.

...my point was that you could make a big donation to the evil church of evilness to get a healing spell cast on a demonspawn, and the silver crusade would approve of this action. I know pfs hates to leave things up to individual GM choice, but it would be nice if GMs could give players points for doing actions that go with the spirit of their faction and deny players points that might meet the letter of the deed, but violate the spirit of what they stand for.

I'm sorry. It seemed like you were complaining that some characters couldn't use class abilities to bypass gold requirements that other non-spellcasting characters would have to pay to complete a goal. Tone is hard to read on the internet.

My point still stands, though. Showing kindness and generosity to those that would be your enemies is more remarkable than simply providing for your community. Though both do further the cause of Good.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

KingOfAnything wrote:


My point still stands, though. Showing kindness and generosity to those that would be your enemies is more remarkable than simply providing for your community. Though both do further the cause of Good.

I like how the responses to an obviously inappropriate act is to throw out a bunch of corner cases where it might be appropriate. Donating to an evil church should not be something that is check worthy by default, that should be an exception. There will always be exceptions, hence the desire for some leeway in GM adjudication.

On the one hand I like this whole check off deeds thing as making factions relevant again, on the other hand I'm foreseeing going back to the days where players are fighting for stage me me time I gotta get my box checked off. It won't be as bad as the I gotta search every room to find my macguffin, but I'm worried it will detract as often as it adds.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka The Great Rinaldo!

I foresee it being part of the end-of-game paperwork. As the GM is signing chronicles, the player looks over his card and says, "Hey, it looks like [this thing we did] should give me credit for line 5, can you initial this?"

Grand Lodge

The other big announcement made me say 'Meh'. This one made me say 'Awesome!'.

Sovereign Court 3/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
gnoams wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:


My point still stands, though. Showing kindness and generosity to those that would be your enemies is more remarkable than simply providing for your community. Though both do further the cause of Good.

I like how the responses to an obviously inappropriate act is to throw out a bunch of corner cases where it might be appropriate. Donating to an evil church should not be something that is check worthy by default, that should be an exception. There will always be exceptions, hence the desire for some leeway in GM adjudication.

1. Donating to an evil church is distinctly different from purchasing spellcasting services.

2. It seems like you are contriving a worst-case example to argue against. Such an example would likely never occur in practice.

3. There are plenty of amazing roleplaying opportunities involved in your example. Having the crusader deliberate if paying evil clerics for healing is ultimately noble. (Some players might not engage with that, but, again, it likely won't even come up)

In the end, most players will just pay for the diamonds needed for an allies restoration. Even in the highly unlikely corner-case hypothetical you proposed, there is good roleplay to be had.

Grand Lodge

How about using the old faction missions to check off goals. When I run the Season 0-4 scenarios I usually give the players the faction missions for Roleplay reasons. It would be nice if they meant something again.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

I think the introduction of the CORE concept pairs nicely with faction cards, because of the replay opportunity.

"I'm supposed to do X? I remember Y had a perfect opportunity for that!"

Especially since Mike said that CORE characters can still benefit from non-CORE stuff earned from a faction card.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
John Compton wrote:
Anointed (five goals): You gain a +2 sacred bonus on Charisma-based checks made against good creatures and saving throws against spells and effects with the evil descriptor. Once per scenario as a swift action, you may grant a weapon you wield the benefits of bless weapon for one round.

So, an Anointed Silver Crusader gets...

* a +2 bonus to bully (Intimidate) good people and outsiders into submission.
* a +2 bonus to the opposed Charisma check to bargain with the angel they just cast planar binding on. (You know, the spell that tears them from their home plane and traps them here?)

Neat! ;-)

(Yes, I understand the intent of the boon, I just thought these were funny.)

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Good is not always nice

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Sparky Spain wrote:
John Compton wrote:
Anointed (five goals): You gain a +2 sacred bonus on Charisma-based checks made against good creatures and saving throws against spells and effects with the evil descriptor. Once per scenario as a swift action, you may grant a weapon you wield the benefits of bless weapon for one round.

So, an Anointed Silver Crusader gets...

* a +2 bonus to bully (Intimidate) good people and outsiders into submission.
* a +2 bonus to the opposed Charisma check to bargain with the angel they just cast planar binding on. (You know, the spell that tears them from their home plane and traps them here?)

Neat! ;-)

(Yes, I understand the intent of the boon, I just thought these were funny.)

Hound Archon: Wha? Why am I in this circle? What have you done to me?

Silver Crusader: I have brought you hear to slay evil and spread the will of good.
Hound Archon: Couldn't you have waited until it wasn't my day off?
Silver Crusader: Silence! I am a hero, and you will walk down that hallway to trigger any traps! Intimidate! Charisma check!
Hound Archon: *Sigh* Yes master...

5/5

John Compton wrote:

Hound Archon: Wha? Why am I in this circle? What have you done to me?

Silver Crusader: I have brought you hear to slay evil and spread the will of good.
Hound Archon: Couldn't you have waited until it wasn't my day off?
Silver Crusader: Silence! I am a hero, and you will walk down that hallway to trigger any traps! Intimidate! Charisma check!
Hound Archon: *Sigh* Yes master...

If you replace Hound Archon with Movanic Deva and Silver Crusader with Dark Archive Sorcerer then this is pretty much what we did with Eyes of the Ten.

Actually, that is not entirely true, I included a clause in my bargain that he could leave if pushed to act contrary to his morals. He was terribly disappointed with me when...

Spoiler:
I summoned the Ice devil in Galt
.


gnoams wrote:
I like that as a silver crusader your faction doesn't give a hoot if you use your own spells to provide a feast for the poor, cure the blind and heal a cripple, but they'll pat you on the back for paying a priest of Lamashtu to heal a tiefling.

Always naysaying! Sit in your tower! ;P

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