A Truly Epic Challenge

Let's just hope some GMs don't decide to be mean and scale it up without everyone's permission.

Heh. Heheheh. Haha.
Haaahaha...
BWAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

Oh man, I can't wait for the threads to get going; this is gonna be great!

Calling it now:

I personally would love to see options for scaling up adventures.

I doubt it would be a popular option for other players in my area.

Conceptually, I approve. We'll see how good the execution is. I do hope they try it on a few more scenarios before making a final decision on doing this all the time, just in case the one scenario's execution isn't perfect.

Heh. Heheheh. Haha.

Haaahaha...
BWAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

Oh man, I can't wait for the threads to get going; this is gonna be great!

Calling it now:
** spoiler omitted **

As to yer spoiler, I think you are correct.

I also anticipate the inevitable threads.

Now, just add a ladder system and things will go crazy.

4 star GM will tele-Baal!

Excellent idea, John. I hope to see it bear fruit.

Please please please add a "gold star" or some other useless token to the chronicle sheet for those opting for completing this on hard mode. Later on, PFS leadership can create a boon to give some value for a character with multiple such tokens.

Please please please add a "gold star" or some other useless token to the chronicle sheet for those opting for completing this on hard mode. Later on, PFS leadership can create a boon to give some value for a character with multiple such tokens.

I like this idea. I hope they do something to recognize the folks who choose to play up.

I approve heartily of this change, in no small part due to the fact that one of the groups for which I GM regularly stomps encounters without a second thought, while the other barely struggles to make it. I look forward to running the extra encounter for one and skipping it for the other.

Please please please add a "gold star" or some other useless token to the chronicle sheet for those opting for completing this on hard mode. Later on, PFS leadership can create a boon to give some value for a character with multiple such tokens.

Please don't.

I think the purpose of this is to answer the 'I play up for the challenge' people who actually play up for the wealth. Our resident Optimizers, for example I actually would expect to 'play up'.*

To offer tokens/rewards/chipmunks for taking hard mode, simply perpetuates the problem.

*

Thanks John I like this idea!

For special events like season conclusions it should feel like a mighty chalange marginaly overcome. I am not sure if this concept should be applyed all the time but for the big special things I like the concept.

In regards to the gold star thing, just ask your GM to note on your chronicle that you completed it - the whole purpose of this is that there is no in-game benefit.

Bruno grapple hard mode.

Hopefully.

Bruno grapple hard mode.

Hopefully.

Bruno probably also be at big penalty for accepting the boons from previous parts, make hard mode ultra hard!

Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Bruno grapple hard mode.

Hopefully.

Bruno probably also be at big penalty for accepting the boons from previous parts, make hard mode ultra hard!

Ah, troll crap. Bruno, you're going to get us both killed, aren't you?

One thing we hear time and time again from developers of scenarios is that they were "limited by word-count" and so it seems that many times it adversely affected the quality (i.e. things get left out that would make the scenario run better as a whole).

So my question is, how much does this added "tough mode" modification eat into the word-count? The Four player adjustments already eat into word count somewhat- I don't know if I would approve of this "hard mode" on top of that if it detracts from word-count better spent on the scenario itself.

I am also a bit worried that trying to accommodate too many levels of play will cause issues later on... what issues, I don't know... just a gut feeling I have.

I approve of this added "Kyle mode" option.

Can I just forgo playing and get a kick in the nuts? I'm in kind of a hurry. ;-)

One thing we hear time and time again from developers of scenarios is that they were "limited by word-count" and so it seems that many times it adversely affected the quality (i.e. things get left out that would make the scenario run better as a whole).

So my question is, how much does this added "tough mode" modification eat into the word-count? The Four player adjustments already eat into word count somewhat- I don't know if I would approve of this "hard mode" on top of that if it detracts from word-count better spent on the scenario itself.

I am also a bit worried that trying to accommodate too many levels of play will cause issues later on... what issues, I don't know... just a gut feeling I have.

I think what John is saying is that he, as the developer, spent extra time and tender loving care on this one to make a mega-hard mode so it could be a truly epic Season Finale, above and beyond the wordcount they gave to Tim to write an awesome finale (my completely speculative guess is that Krune is in the scenario and is normally exhausted or sickened or staggered or missing half his spells like from a raise, more than one of those, or something similar, and then in hard mode of 10-11, he gets all that removed, thus using very few words by just telling the GM "Remove the staggered, sickened, and exhausted condition from Runelord Krune" or for added evulz "Add in a Pit Fiend/Balor/Iathavos/GM's Choice CR 20 Outsider that he gated in with the gate spell before the PCs arrived").

Obviously have yet to see the scenario at all, and I already LOVE this idea. John, please keep this up as your development time allows!!!

Maybe see if you can add a checkbox in the reporting site to track how often it is used?

@Rogue Eidolon - I was addressing my concerns more in a general way if such a "play up hard mode" becomes standard. I wasn't speculating on this scenario in particular and wasn't implying that John did a shoddy job.

If the "hard mode" text is not that involved (as in your example), then it may not be such a big deal.

I'm looking forward to playing/GMing this and hopefully future scenarios with "HM" options.

I just hope that those PCs who so greedily took evil boons throughout S4 are appropriately addressed ;)

Obviously have yet to see the scenario at all, and I already LOVE this idea. John, please keep this up as your development time allows!!!

Maybe see if you can add a checkbox in the reporting site to track how often it is used?

They already do:

Character Died☑

Character Died☑

Character Died☑

Character Died☑

Character Died☑

Character Died☑

@Rogue Eidolon

Bruno categorically deny use of performance-enhancing boons.

Bruno will now read prepared statement. Bruno not taking questions at this time.

"These are the very same charges the Silver Crusade chose not to pursue after a two-year investigation. These charges are baseless, motivated by spite and advanced through testimony bought and paid for by promises of anonymity and immunity. The Decemverite's malice, its methods, its star-chamber practices, and its decision to punish first and adjudicate later all are at odds with our ideals of fairness and fair play.

Bruno never accept tainted boons, and, unlike many of my accusers, Bruno have competed as a handsome and beautiful tetori for many years with no spike in performance and passed more than 500 character audits and never failed one. That the Decemverite ignores this fundamental distinction and charges Bruno instead of the admitted tainted-booners says far more about the Decemverite, its lack of fairness and this vendetta than it does about my guilt or innocence. Any fair consideration of these allegations has and will continue to vindicate me."

Thank you.

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Bruno grapple hard mode.

Hopefully.

Bruno probably also be at big penalty for accepting the boons from previous parts, make hard mode ultra hard!

Ah, troll crap. Bruno, you're going to get us both killed, aren't you?

All of a sudden, I'm glad I don't have a character at level 10 or 11 that I could play at that table with you two. Maybe I should volunteer to be the GM for this one... *cackle*

@Rogue Eidolon

Bruno categorically deny use of performance-enhancing boons.

Bruno will now read prepared statement. Bruno not taking questions at this time.

"These are the very same charges the Silver Crusade chose not to pursue after a two-year investigation. These charges are baseless, motivated by spite and advanced through testimony bought and paid for by promises of anonymity and immunity. The Decemverite's malice, its methods, its star-chamber practices, and its decision to punish first and adjudicate later all are at odds with our ideals of fairness and fair play.

Bruno never accept tainted boons, and, unlike many of my accusers, Bruno have competed as a handsome and beautiful tetori for many years with no spike in performance and passed more than 500 character audits and never failed one. That the Decemverite ignores this fundamental distinction and charges Bruno instead of the admitted tainted-booners says far more about the Decemverite, its lack of fairness and this vendetta than it does about my guilt or innocence. Any fair consideration of these allegations has and will continue to vindicate me."

Thank you.

I'll give you this, Bruno. You've got a lot of ball.

@Rogue Eidolon

Bruno categorically deny use of performance-enhancing boons.

Bruno will now read prepared statement. Bruno not taking questions at this time.

"These are the very same charges the Silver Crusade chose not to pursue after a two-year investigation. These charges are baseless, motivated by spite and advanced through testimony bought and paid for by promises of anonymity and immunity. The Decemverite's malice, its methods, its star-chamber practices, and its decision to punish first and adjudicate later all are at odds with our ideals of fairness and fair play.

Bruno never accept tainted boons, and, unlike many of my accusers, Bruno have competed as a handsome and beautiful tetori for many years with no spike in performance and passed more than 500 character audits and never failed one. That the Decemverite ignores this fundamental distinction and charges Bruno instead of the admitted tainted-booners says far more about the Decemverite, its lack of fairness and this vendetta than it does about my guilt or innocence. Any fair consideration of these allegations has and will continue to vindicate me."

Thank you.

Mr. Bruno! Mr. Bruno! Rogue Eidolon here from the Absalom Daily Forum News. How do you respond to testimony from Silver Crusade paladins, verified by Abadar's truthtelling and also by the fact that the paladins did not fall for lying, that you admitted the following in a recent public statement: "Bruno once handsome and strong Tetori monk. Then Bruno found shelter in the Refuge of Time, tasted the sweet Cultist's Kiss and heard the Word of the Ancients."

The boon to make gold stars "worth" something doesn't have to be anything more than a title or guild membership, perhaps even a title on the message boards next to a user's name. I was not looking for another "Treasure Map" monitary reward boon. People who want the challenge of playing on "hard mode" also want recognition for doing so. Bragging rights/rank is a nice way of putting a cherry on top of a hard-won accomplishment.

One thing we hear time and time again from developers of scenarios is that they were "limited by word-count" and so it seems that many times it adversely affected the quality (i.e. things get left out that would make the scenario run better as a whole).

So my question is, how much does this added "tough mode" modification eat into the word-count? The Four player adjustments already eat into word count somewhat- I don't know if I would approve of this "hard mode" on top of that if it detracts from word-count better spent on the scenario itself.

I am also a bit worried that trying to accommodate too many levels of play will cause issues later on... what issues, I don't know... just a gut feeling I have.

I can understand this concern. Rogue Eidolon certainly hit on the reason I made this decision for #4–26, and I'll certainly use that as a starting point for any "hard mode" options in the future (incorporating feedback as appropriate).

Excluding a short sidebar that explains what "hard mode" is at the beginning of the scenario, the adjustment notes for scaling up take approximately the same amount of word count as do the notes for scaling down an encounter for 4 players. I don't see the minimal addition detracting from the overall storytelling space.

I worry a little about this...
I am glad you stated the following:
"I trust that we'll all be good gaming citizens by not pressuring others into taking on this added challenge unless they really want it.

Now... I worry about the last 5 words. I wonder how long until we hear at some table - "...you want to play at hard mode, you know you do! Don't be a &*(^%$!"

I think this is awesome news. Used responsibly, it will add that little extra "umph" to encounters for those groups that desire such things.

The boons given on chronicle sheets are already too much "extra" when added up, so I personally am not in favor of a gold star system to be cashed in later.

I am in favor of a special designation being placed on hard mode available chronicle sheets for bragging rights, however.

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Bruno grapple hard mode.

Hopefully.

Bruno probably also be at big penalty for accepting the boons from previous parts, make hard mode ultra hard!

Ah, troll crap. Bruno, you're going to get us both killed, aren't you?

You two only think you go hard Mode, but I'm the only one of us who's actually spent all his prestige so I can't be rezzed.

I worry a little about this...

I am glad you stated the following:
"I trust that we'll all be good gaming citizens by not pressuring others into taking on this added challenge unless they really want it.

Now... I worry about the last 5 words. I wonder how long until we hear at some table - "...you want to play at hard mode, you know you do! Don't be a &*(^%$!"

You know, I hear a lot about bullying at tables, and I can't help but wonder exactly where this is happening, because I've never seen it. If someone says to you, "YOU WANT TO DO THIS" you say "lol nope" and then move on with your life. This is a social game, played by human beings. It is unreasonable and impossible to expect that all typical human behavior--and people being pushy is typical human behavior--be avoided at all times. There has to fall some responsibility on the people who don't want to play up/play hard mode/whatever to simply say, "Oi, no thank you, and piss off."

I worry a little about this...

I am glad you stated the following:
"I trust that we'll all be good gaming citizens by not pressuring others into taking on this added challenge unless they really want it.

Now... I worry about the last 5 words. I wonder how long until we hear at some table - "...you want to play at hard mode, you know you do! Don't be a &*(^%$!"

This reminds me of True Dungeon where you can elect to play at "hard mode" level (aka Nightmare level). Normally, everyone at the table has to agree to play up to hard mode... one year, our usual group was completed by two fellows from New Zealand (who were really great btw). My friend Joe coerced them into agreeing to hard mode in a very sneaky way...

Joe: "So you guys want to play up to Nightmare mode?"
Kiwi1: "Um, this is our first time doing this..."
Kiwi2: "We traveled a long way and don't want to buy it in the first room of the dungeon..."
Joe: "Hold on, I thought you Kiwi guys were supposed to be *tough*!?"
Both Kiwis (fiercely): "Is there anything tougher than Nightmare?!?"

In the end, we did Nightmare and everyone lived... but who knows how jovial they would have been if they *had* bought it in room one?

Will there be a hard mode at each tier?

As scared as I am, there is no way I am taking this on in normal mode.
I hope y'all is ready for repeated castings of Wail of the Banshee.
*gulps*

nosig wrote:

I worry a little about this...

I am glad you stated the following:
"I trust that we'll all be good gaming citizens by not pressuring others into taking on this added challenge unless they really want it.

Now... I worry about the last 5 words. I wonder how long until we hear at some table - "...you want to play at hard mode, you know you do! Don't be a &*(^%$!"

You know, I hear a lot about bullying at tables, and I can't help but wonder exactly where this is happening, because I've never seen it. If someone says to you, "YOU WANT TO DO THIS" you say "lol nope" and then move on with your life. This is a social game, played by human beings. It is unreasonable and impossible to expect that all typical human behavior--and people being pushy is typical human behavior--be avoided at all times. There has to fall some responsibility on the people who don't want to play up/play hard mode/whatever to simply say, "Oi, no thank you, and piss off."

I think the term "bullying" paints the wrong picture, at least in my experience. It's usually not someone rolling up their sleeves and growling at you until you comply. It's usually more of a subtle peer pressure (maybe a sense of instantly fitting in by playing up, or feeling like "the guy who made everyone else have less fun").

So, less like "bullying" and more like "manipulating".

Sounds like fun *cracks knuckles*

Will there be a hard mode at each tier?

Yes, the notes for scaling up apply to both Subtiers.

*I* for one, welcome our new Epic Challenge Overlords, and say, to them. "Hail the great SLURM LORDS". Now please punish me, and quickly. >.>

*I* for one, welcome our new Epic Challenge Overlords, and say, to them. "Hail the great SLURM LORDS". Now please punish me, and quickly. >.>

You're welcome at my table in Kalamazoo when I guinea pig my local players before my 4 runs of it at Gencon, or just find me at Gencon. Happy Hunting.

This is great. My schedule has (sadly! so sadly!) moved me away from PFS recently, but I might have to come back for this one.

Bring it on!

You just know that there will be a group of 4 PCs that will play this scenario using the minimum legal level then proceed to play as if they were a full 6 player party - and they'll all agree to scale up as well.

We can call it the Platinum Pathfinder Challenge.

Not for me I dont think.

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

*I* for one, welcome our new Epic Challenge Overlords, and say, to them. "Hail the great SLURM LORDS". Now please punish me, and quickly. >.>

You're welcome at my table in Kalamazoo when I guinea pig my local players before my 4 runs of it at Gencon, or just find me at Gencon. Happy Hunting.

I've got my tickets for Gen Con, it'll be the last hurrah of my Sorcerer before he hits 12th level, and thus starts his treck toward becoming a VC, and his dream of making Paracountess Zarta his wife. >.>

Very nice idea! I can't wait to see how many of my groups actually "Play up...up!"

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

*I* for one, welcome our new Epic Challenge Overlords, and say, to them. "Hail the great SLURM LORDS". Now please punish me, and quickly. >.>

You're welcome at my table in Kalamazoo when I guinea pig my local players before my 4 runs of it at Gencon, or just find me at Gencon. Happy Hunting.

For the record, Dan, my vote is for hard mode when we do play. Go big or go home.

TwoWolves wrote:

Please please please add a "gold star" or some other useless token to the chronicle sheet for those opting for completing this on hard mode. Later on, PFS leadership can create a boon to give some value for a character with multiple such tokens.

Please don't.

I think the purpose of this is to answer the 'I play up for the challenge' people who actually play up for the wealth. Our resident Optimizers, for example I actually would expect to 'play up'.*

To offer tokens/rewards/chipmunks for taking hard mode, simply perpetuates the problem.

*** spoiler omitted **

What about banana stickers instead?

If I had a regular group of tactically minded individuals who worked together like a well-oiled machine and whose PCs were designed to work in conjunction then I would try this. But with the random hodge-podge you usually get at conventions and game days, no way.