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Silver Crusade

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
How about saving the Hags daughter? Obviously she would be a changeling. Make her young enough that she is just starting to feel the call. Make her a neutral sorceress who is in danger of heeding the call and turning into a hag herself. This gives the paladin the opportunity to save her not only from the danger she is in, but also her heritage. Play her as a basically decent person with some with some tendencies towards evil due to her mother. The paladin’s job is to save both her body and her soul even though he may not realize it at first. Don’t reveal the fact she is the hags daughter right away. This tests the paladin on multiple levels but is not a dick move.

Oh, did I not mention that the NPC the cleric is playing meanwhile is a changeling witch from the town? She's going to be part of the hook for the followup adventure we're doing currently in 4 levels. lol

I like this

For further detail. I wanted to avoid a pure arcanist to avoid stepping on other player's toes too much. Almost went oracle, but decided I liked the witch a little bit more, and will allow the cleric's PC to branch his knowledge a bit. Changeling was decided since there is some Dark Tapestry stuff in the mix, and wanted something weird but not too weird.

Then I started coming up with the scenario... Hags were something they're not supposed to run into during the course of their extended campaign. I wanted something the paladin wouldn't simply be able to "DUR HUR Smite". They're way outside the scope of the party to take on. CR 13 together? Party is APL 4. I am very much of the opinion that "It's evil and thus auto-killable" with intelligent creatures is just as evil as the creature is. Especially since the Hags are not known to currently be messing with the town (whether that's because they've recently arrived or have been cowed by the evil the players are eventually building to deal with isn't decided, and outside my current scope.)

As for the paladin working with the hags. Working with evil for a greater good or to put down a greater evil is within the realm of this IMO. Saving the cleric from death is unrepentantly good. Cleric of a good god, working unknowingly against a "Super smite" villain. So, saving greater good against greater evil to correct paladin screw up. IMO walks the paladin line, but doesn't go over.

I also disagree this is not exceptional. A close friend, story built relationship with another PC cleric will die and be outside the realm of raise dead without again the said hags (Only things close enough without abandoning the region to perform the recovery). I'm ok with this as the GM. Should make for an interesting story.

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Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Does have to be over the line or just a difficult choice. I wouldn't put the paladin in the position of having to fall to save the cleric in the party. Whom does he worship? What is his code? Give him something tough but ultimately up to him to live with the consequences emotionally. But under no circumstances should you set him up to fall.

He'll fall if he blatantly goes over the line. I prefer a difficult choice where it forces him to succeed "his" way but still meet the victory conditions despite the "easy" choice being clearly evil, but not neon sign evil. Playing paladin imo requires the GM to challenge your "faith" periodically. Otherwise a big aspect of your class is ignored for GM convenience. I say this with paladins being my personal favorite class to play.

He worships abadar, and has been running a standard code and leans more law than good. Did I mention it was the paladins tactical idiot move that put the cleric in this position. Tried to get fancy and opened up the cleric to charge crit from a demon without realizing it.

Really fishing for ideas at this point.

Silver Crusade

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Tabernero wrote:
The way I see it, subtle dickery is no less dickish than obvious dickery... Hopefully you aren't just leading the Palading to a lose-lose scenario just so you can shout "GOTCHA!" and take his class features away... :/

Don't really go for Gotcha's either. I'm looking for situations that run the line and can tip over should the paladin take a convenient route. Gotcha's are boring. I also use liberal hints from his god when he starts to cross the line. I.e. He suggested stealing for convenience once and his money pouch string broke (Abadaran).

Silver Crusade

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Ok, I'm the GM, and I don't go for obvious paladin dickery. I like messing with paladins in ways that make them really wonder if they are messing up or not. Knowing this, here is the setup so far...

The party cleric is on the edge of death and for story reasons he is out without major help. Que GM story shenanigans where the party is introduced to a hags coven. The hags ask for three tasks in exchange for a draught of regeneration which will restore said cleric. First task is recovering the living head of a troll. The second is fetching rare poisonous roots. The third is...?

I'm having trouble coming up with a doozy of a task that is not obviously evil. No steal a unicorns horn. No switch out a baby changeling wise, etc. Everything up till now has been possibly evil but in black and white terms has been not over the line given the circumstances.

Bonus Fun fact, the hags speak in rhyme. I've got 16 lines of rhyme for their main bit so far, and some 4 line bits for possible side questions.

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Thea Peters wrote:

Venture Officers can have private home/store games just the same as any other player can have private home/store games. They can also play PFS scenarios during these private events as well.

The problem with this would come in if they were doing the private invite-only games in lieu of public games. As long as they are still supporting public games there should be no problems.

Completely off-OP Topic, but...

Wow... visited the forums for the first time in ages, and saw the VC title next to Thea's name. I already knew of it, but it really just sunk in. You guys gave a VC-ship to a rabbit. :P

*Don't kill me Thea!

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Congrats to Jim. He is by far one of my favorite players, and one of my favorite GMs. I have spent lots of time with him, and will never forget when he had a mouthy goblin tell me something not suitable public in a Joisey accent. When I remind him about it, he still turns beat red.

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Nefreet wrote:

The Perception DC to hear someone walking is 10. Invisibility gives a +20 to Stealth when moving.

So would the base DC to hear an Invisible person walking be 30? 10? Or 20+Stealth?

Also, for the longest time I've been running off the belief that it was only a DC 20 Perception check to notice an Invisible creature standing out in the open, but now I can't seem to find that rule.

It's under special conditions in the back section before the glossary.

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seebs wrote:
Dan Luckett wrote:

@Seebs:

Stealth can be used even if you don't physically move cross grid. You can stay in the same square and still stealth. If you were not in stealth previously, you need to make a move action to obtain the condition despite not physically moving.

What "condition"? "In stealth" is not a condition. You aren't in-stealth or not-in-stealth, and there's nothing saying you need "a move action" to "enter stealth". Stealth's action type is "usually none". It's not an action, it's a thing that influences how an action might resolve. If you move, and wish to be unobserved, you roll stealth, but you're not using an action to stealth, you're using an action to move. If you aren't trying to do a thing, you don't need an action.

Huh...I thought they made "Stealth" a condition in the 5th printing errata. I double checked and you are right. I had the old stealth playtest rule in my head for the condition.

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@Seebs:
Stealth can be used even if you don't physically move cross grid. You can stay in the same square and still stealth. If you were not in stealth previously, you need to make a move action to obtain the condition despite not physically moving.

Silver Crusade

All verbage pulled from PRD

Rules debate:

Skills chapter under Stealth:
"If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth."

Combat Chapter under Concealment:
"Concealment and Stealth Checks: You can use concealment to make a Stealth check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Stealth check."

CRB Glossary under Invisibility Condition:
"The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.

Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision."

Hypothetical situation:
Combat has started, everyone is aware of everyone. An enemy casts invisibility. He now:

A) Uses his move action to stealth since he has concealment and concealment says he can stealth?

B) Just has total concealment, and can not stealth without something else like a bluff for distraction because everyone is aware of him and is "observing" him with their ears?

My Stance:
He takes option A, concealment is a specific rule that overrides a generic rule such as stealth which states that simply listening to/for someone you're aware of makes it impossible to stealth.

My opponents stance:
He takes option B, if you're aware of them at the start of their turn in any way, he can't stealth, ever.

Does anyone have anything concrete that supports either stance? Developer opinion, rules monkeying, obscure book knowledge, etc?

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*peers in*

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Gratz Alan!

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Dan Simons wrote:

Best of luck with your new adventures, Dan, and I'll see you at GenCon next year.

Dagnabbit, that's one less Dan as VC, how are we going to take over now?

If my plans go accordingly over the next 4-5 years. I'll be in the Greater Washington Area working for the NSA. I'm working on a Information Assurance, MSIA, and the NSA has a partnership with my school.

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Since the time I saw most of you (Gencon). My life has taken a change in priorities. I've had to pick 10-20 more hours a week at work, and I've started taking College classes. As you can imagine, that has put a crippling crunch on my gaming time.

So in result I reluctantly tendered Mike my resignation knowing that by doing so, I'd be turning over my beloved West Michigan over to someone who had more time to devote themselves to it.

This doesn't mean I'm completely out of the game. It does mean I need to take a significant step back in my gaming. I hope to hit my 5th star by next Gencon. I think I'm 20-30 sessions away. I still hope, and plan on going to Gencon next year too. Though maybe less GMing, 10 sessions was a little nuts, but I did it. Who knows, maybe one day down the road I'll feel safe in assuming another leadership role. Just not now.

I'd like to thank my three Venture-Lieutenants Eric, Kelvin, and Jim. You three have truly helped me grow our region. I can't express how much I've appreciated your help. If any of you need my help. Don't be afraid to ask. The worst I can do is say I'm out of time.

Lastly, I'd like to thank Mike Brock. It was truly an honor to serve under you and to work with you. I look forward to working with you at future major events like Gencon, or PaizoCon if I somehow swing it.

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Oh good, I was just thinking, "Crap, apparently I F'd up that clarification to my tables last Saturday."

Glad to know I had it right, and that I'm not the only one who is missing some of the nuances of these new rules. ;)

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So, conclusion: The system worked, and you were effectively challenged?

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Andrew Betts wrote:
Now, now. He grew up in Texas, that's not quite a real yooper. Congrats Philip.

First 9 years of my life were in Texas, and some time afterwards too. I'm still the VC of West Michigan. Must be Texas breeds leadership. ;)

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Detroit is the Worldwound. West Michigan is Mendev. Indiana is Ustalav, Ohio is the Belkzen, Canada the Crown of the World.

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Congrats Philip! You're more than welcome to take advantage of the MichiganPFS.org website for your organizing needs. Glad to have you part of the Michigan team.

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There are few details on the runes beyond you must be in Kurshu's room to return.

After having Kurshu smash 2 parties in her room. I took pity on them and allowed one person to take the entire party of willing albeit stupified characters with them.

Alternatively, I've had it suggested to me that each member has to have their token activated for them. Move: grab token, standard: send party member home.

Personally if you get smashed facing Kurshu then I feel sorry for you, and let you take the "easy" route. If you're getting smashed by Krune, you're on your own.

Silver Crusade

I'll answer assuming this is a non-PFS question:
The concentration and the duration are separate even when cast normally.
Permanency makes it last forever, but instead you just need to focus it down with concentration to know more.

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I’d like to announce the promotion of Jim Tinklenberg to Venture-Lieutenant of South Haven, MI. He has earned this position through his dedicated work as a GM not only in our home region in Michigan, but across the Midwest as a whole. Jim has always been willing to step up to GM, and organizes game days regularly just so people have more opportunities to play. He's put 70,000 miles on his car in the last year visiting cons all over tarnation. So, in closing. Lets all put our hands together for another awesome Venture-Officer

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It's a running "gag" for the chelish faction leader.

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Jason S wrote:


The worst part is that 6 players came away from that table thinking that’s how darkness should work. My inexperienced friend came back from that and actually tried to correct me on “the rules”… lol.

Sounds like he was using the "Lost" rules. *Rolls eyes*

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Andrew Christian wrote:

The spear disarmed him. Not sure how the spear would be able to grapple him.

The spear also threw the fighter into the maximized and empowered cloudkill.

The big nasty, was using his 8th level pearl of power to recall horrid wilting (which I took pity on the group and didn't maximize and empower it) which straight up killed 2 characters and seriously hurt the fighter.

Telekinesis at will for the spear equates to grapple from the spear. At least that's where I figure he's coming from.

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I choose cloak of dreams because I personally don't like save or die spells.

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Cao Phen wrote:
And if you played down, there should be none.

I'll admit error here. I had not caught that in my multiple read throughs and is not included on my tier cheat sheet for that eventuality. Not sure if this was my table or not but if it was, I screwed up and missed a line. It was not intentional. Despite my title, I am still human and capable of error.

Too many variables to say what may have happened if I had caught that. If those players would like to discuss options with me please pm me.

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Son of the Veterinarian wrote:


Unfortunately, I had to try and run through the scenario as part of a group of four (DO NOT DO THIS!!!) as we just couldn't find any more players.

Nobody died, but the four of us had to run away with our tails between our legs after just a few rounds with the Runelord. It was easily the most humiliating defeat any of my players have ever suffered.

** spoiler omitted **

Should only be one unless on hard.

Silver Crusade *****

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Avatar-1 wrote:

Worth asking - how do people usually handle this situation when it comes up?

The PFS guide says they must have the resource, but not what to do in the meantime if they don't.

Educate, ignore-for-now and play on?

Situational on how experienced the player is and how long they've been active. The more stars and levels the heavier I lay down the law.

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A lot of people ask me why my first fight is so hard. Here is my quick list of where things go bad for players at my table.

1) no buffs before teleporting in.
2) it's dark in there, spending time casting light, and missing the perception as Kurshu slips into full cover, she casts surged cloak of dreams DC 26. This is usually where her game ender begins.
3) any other buff spell equates to her casting displacement
4) initiative starts as she makes her first attack if no one has wandered onto her yet.
5) potions of fly dispels are only a roll of a 5 to dispel assuming you don't just fall asleep when you get to me.
6) animal companions are usually one hit from vegetable. Eliminate them when convenient, and prudent.
7) teleport over archers. Their turn starts, usually a sleeping archer and an easy finish the next turn or two.

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I will list advanced tactics in the gm prep section. The first boss is VERY hard if played to her fullest. She wrecks parties easily.

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Kyle Baird wrote:
TetsujinOni wrote:
There's something to be said for grossly powerful 12-13 tables making running the demons easy, Kyle....
I meant it more along the lines of ~12 different demons, each have their own unique abilities. Going to be a challenge to use them effectively, especially the Epic target at the end for 14-15. Already spent an hour play-testing tactics with it.

I wouldn't mind picking your brain on the high tier stuff if we get the chance.

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I'm running it 4 times including that slot, and would love to kill your character. ;)

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As I'm sure you're aware if you're from Michigan, but the MichiganPFS.org website has been down regularly for 3 days now. We've been down for a day or so here and there before, but never like this.

So, I contacted GoDaddy.com and became very pointed with them about this, and finally got a reasonable response. We are under a DDoS attack for some reason. Which explains why we have between 20-30 guests from what I can see loading in every time. I think the most I've seen on at one time is 10 users.

GoDaddy.com is working on resolving the problem, but this is also a heads up of a sort to other organizers. I'm not sure why we're under attack. My best thought is some hacker somewhere is sharpening his skills on us.

I'm not the most tech savvy person out there. I have a rank or two in computers. If you know of a solution, I would be interested in hearing it.

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Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
*I* for one, welcome our new Epic Challenge Overlords, and say, to them. "Hail the great SLURM LORDS". Now please punish me, and quickly. >.>

You're welcome at my table in Kalamazoo when I guinea pig my local players before my 4 runs of it at Gencon, or just find me at Gencon. Happy Hunting.

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Next year it should be FowlervillapaloozaCONamania!

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Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
Robert Matthews 166 wrote:
Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
In any case, I think the bigger problem is a combat-trained bison for 75 gp. How many level 1 characters can show up with a CR 4 encounter following their commands?
Oh wow. Just looked up the bison. Trample for 2d6+12 at a DC 20 reflex for half. At level 1, as soon as the bison's initiative comes up you just trample everything and win the encounter. That is a crazy effective use of 75 GP.
I'm pretty sure it's a misprint. If you swap the cost of the aurochs with the bison, they both seem a lot more reasonable. However, I'm still wary of player exploitation.

I'm tempted to spring this on some of my local GM's just to see what they do. >:)

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I didn't make that mistake again with Fangwood Keep. ;)

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Congrats dude! We have a bond that most dudes don't share. ;) I'm so glad that's an inside joke. Lol

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Riven sky has 2 dragon fights FYI. The one you reference above is kind of weak where the other is an epic fight.

Silver Crusade

I know in PFS, only about 10% of our players follow the boards. Posting is another matter.

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There's always worldworksgames.com too. Cheap, modular, and very portable.

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Congrats! Welcome to the ranks!

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Congrats! How many minions do you have Kristie?

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In my experience, fudging should be done rarely, if ever. When to do it is not some "mechanical" algorithm that can be laid out for anyone to use. You should look through a lens of GM experience, and make the soundest decision you can make, and do not approach it lightly. If you feel hesitant, don't do it. Just let the dice fall where they fall.

In hindsight, when I have fudged, I question those moments to this day, because it's incredibly hard to define if your decision was a good one at the time.

I relate fudging to sailing. A lot of it is done with experience and feeling.

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Congrats!

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Congrats! I look forward to hearing great things from you!

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Thanks everyone! I thought I'd of been there a while ago, but alas it took me till last Wednesday. The last leg I don't think will take as long to be honest. My kid is older, and easier to take care of, and thus I'm not "needed" as much which means I get more time from my girl to go out and have fun!

I expect at the least by this time next year I will be a 5th star at the latest. I should be halfway there after Gencon.

Silver Crusade

So...if I buy the comics already. What do I gain from this that I don't already have?

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It is long. We've hammered 10 hours at it and have just made it to the last act.

Slave house/sewers

Slaver base

Finale

That's how I'd break it up.

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