A Truly Epic Challenge

andreww wrote:

kinevon wrote:

Got to admit, the group I played Waking Rune with at PaizoCon, Saturday morning at 10-11, was too well-built/handled for normal mode, how we played it, but not good enough for hard mode.

At the end there, I was actually feeling sorry for poor Krune.

** spoiler omitted **

Given his abilities I am surprised that caused him a problem.

** spoiler omitted **

Andreww, does he still have those abilities if we ...

** spoiler omitted **

Yes, yes he does.

To be fair Krunes statblock is probably one of the most complicated you are ever going to use. A thread about what he is capable of, heavily spoiler alerted of course, might well be in order.

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

andreww wrote:

Given his abilities I am surprised that caused him a problem.

** spoiler omitted **

Andreww, does he still have those abilities if we ...

** spoiler omitted **

Yes

** spoiler omitted **

Just an honest mistake by our GM I guess then, it happens. In my opinion, he still did a great job overall though.

That might be a really good idea Andreww. TetujinOni and I were kibitz'ing late Sunday night about all the things he could have done, particularly on Hard Mode. The list of "Oh that would have been *really* bad" got pretty long.

Fortunately, Eric's run of it for us was pretty intense, nothing obvious for either of us that would have necessarily gone better for Krune.

I'd love to see a thread of what Krune can do for when I run this. But maybe in the GM section?

Pirate Rob wrote:

Here's a brief rundown of how our 10-11 hard went:

** spoiler omitted **

I still can't believe that more than half the party had made that Fort save considering the DC!

I know i only made the DC thanks to our bard, or i would have been rotisserie chicken after 12 hours under a heat lamp, all crispy and dried out.

And Alex you earned a sticker for sure! We had to work for that one even if your dice betrayed the rune lord a few times.

Garble Facechomper wrote:

Krune taste good?

Yes, I ate his ashes with relish.

If he tasted so good, why did you need to add relish?

I really wish I could've had a chance at playing this scenario on Hard Mode, but as it is, my table didn't even get to finish regular mode because of the time constraints of starting a little late and trying to run it in a short slot. Also, we got stuck in one area that took us a bit to figure out before moving on. I think that if we'd had another 10 minutes, things would've gone quite differently.

I understand why the "No Replay" rules exist and why they're important, but when there's a scenario with the option of playing on a different difficulty, it's really annoying to find out that you either have to walk away from a table because you don't like that they're not going to do it hard mode (which I felt would've been really rude of me), or put up with doing it normally and give up the opportunity to do it the way you'd like to.

If you died:

" I TOOK ON THE RUNELORDS... AND GOT OWNED!"

My PC did not die but got this sticker from Eric Brittain... Most likely having something to due with taking enough dmg to go to -15 with a 12 con but but being saved by my Aegis of Recovery and ended up at 0. ;)

I'd love to see a thread of what Krune can do for when I run this. But maybe in the GM section?

I have started one here

I understand why the "No Replay" rules exist and why they're important, but when there's a scenario with the option of playing on a different difficulty, it's really annoying to find out that you either have to walk away from a table because you don't like that they're not going to do it hard mode (which I felt would've been really rude of me), or put up with doing it normally and give up the opportunity to do it the way you'd like to.

I think this is one scenario where people will play it again, as whole tables of replay, just to experience hard mode.

Jack-of-Blades wrote:

I understand why the "No Replay" rules exist and why they're important, but when there's a scenario with the option of playing on a different difficulty, it's really annoying to find out that you either have to walk away from a table because you don't like that they're not going to do it hard mode (which I felt would've been really rude of me), or put up with doing it normally and give up the opportunity to do it the way you'd like to.

I think this is one scenario where people will play it again, as whole tables of replay, just to experience hard mode.

Nothing says that you can't replay the scenario; just that you can't play it inside society rules. Just the same as playing one of the retired scenarios. Play, have fun, die (maybe).

My table is set for hard mode:

Lvl 11 caster cleric
Lvl 11 caster cleric specializing in healing
Lvl 11 melee alchemist
lvl 11 magus
lvl 10 bloatmage
lvl 10 ranged rogue

Will let you all know how it goes (sans the spoilers). If you want to know all the gritty details you will just have to risk your on prestige to find out.

My table is set for hard mode:

Lvl 11 caster cleric
Lvl 11 caster cleric specializing in healing
Lvl 11 melee alchemist
lvl 11 magus
lvl 10 bloatmage
lvl 10 ranged rogue

Will let you all know how it goes (sans the spoilers). If you want to know all the gritty details you will just have to risk your on prestige to find out.

Wow, no tank. Good luck, safe travels. :-)

Lab: So long and farewell :)

Wow, no tank. Good luck, safe travels. :-)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

From what I had heard, the scenario is challenging enough as is without increasing the difficulty.

Good luck. :)

Lab_Rat wrote:

My table is set for hard mode:

Lvl 11 caster cleric
Lvl 11 caster cleric specializing in healing
Lvl 11 melee alchemist
lvl 11 magus
lvl 10 bloatmage
lvl 10 ranged rogue

Will let you all know how it goes (sans the spoilers). If you want to know all the gritty details you will just have to risk your on prestige to find out.

Wow, no tank. Good luck, safe travels. :-)

depends on how the "Lvl 11 melee alchemist" & the Clerics are built.

I've seen some very high ACs on Clerics, and Alchemists (with spells added in too. Deflection, blur, greater Invis.... get's scary sometimes). This highest AC character I've seen was my sons Caster Cleric...

AC's are in the 30's for the melee. We don't have an iron wall but they are not supper squishy.

Todd Lower wrote:

Wow, no tank. Good luck, safe travels. :-)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

From what I had heard, the scenario is challenging enough as is without increasing the difficulty.

Good luck. :)

AC 30 hp 120+ before buffs cleric

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

andreww wrote:

kinevon wrote:

Got to admit, the group I played Waking Rune with at PaizoCon, Saturday morning at 10-11, was too well-built/handled for normal mode, how we played it, but not good enough for hard mode.

At the end there, I was actually feeling sorry for poor Krune.

** spoiler omitted **

Given his abilities I am surprised that caused him a problem.

** spoiler omitted **

Andreww, does he still have those abilities if we ...

** spoiler omitted **

Yes, yes he does.

To be fair Krunes statblock is probably one of the most complicated you are ever going to use. A thread about what he is capable of, heavily spoiler alerted of course, might well be in order.

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

andreww wrote:

kinevon wrote:

Got to admit, the group I played Waking Rune with at PaizoCon, Saturday morning at 10-11, was too well-built/handled for normal mode, how we played it, but not good enough for hard mode.

At the end there, I was actually feeling sorry for poor Krune.

** spoiler omitted **

Given his abilities I am surprised that caused him a problem.

** spoiler omitted **

Andreww, does he still have those abilities if we ...

** spoiler omitted **

Yes, yes he does.

To be fair Krunes statblock is probably one of the most complicated you are ever going to use. A thread about what he is capable of, heavily spoiler alerted of course, might well be in order.

I'm assuming the opening salvo would be traps triggered that cast delayed targeted Dispel Magics at the party to remove any buffs? :)

I'm curious. Is this something different...a boss you have to 'solve' rather than out-control/divinate and pound? Are those elements present?

I won't be playing this one anytime soon (my highest is only level 5) so I don't want it spoiled but I'd be a wee bit disappointed if the boss is a cookie-cutter high-level caster.

I'm assuming the opening salvo would be traps triggered that cast delayed targeted Dispel Magics at the party to remove any buffs? :)

I'm curious. Is this something different...a boss you have to 'solve' rather than out-control/divinate and pound? Are those elements present?

I won't be playing this one anytime soon (my highest is only level 5) so I don't want it spoiled but I'd be a wee bit disappointed if the boss is a cookie-cutter high-level caster.

There's a fair bit of depth to Krune. One can just beat the snot out of him, but there are some interesting ways to defeat him. Beyond that, Krune has some cool resources that keep him from settling into the "cookie-cutter, high-level caster" stereotype.

There's a fair bit of depth to Krune. One can just beat the snot out of him, but there are some interesting ways to defeat him. Beyond that, Krune has some cool resources that keep him from settling into the "cookie-cutter, high-level caster" stereotype.

Mmmmm... cookies!

There's a fair bit of depth to Krune. One can just beat the snot out of him, but there are some interesting ways to defeat him. Beyond that, Krune has some cool resources that keep him from settling into the "cookie-cutter, high-level caster" stereotype.

Mmm... SNOT!

Forget Krune for a second.....according to the blurb WE, as in pathfinders, get to play with artifacts. I am wondering what goodies we get.

I think you may be disappointed...:)

Sigh...the society is always disappointing my bloatmage. It's always "Go collect this item of power and that item of power." It's never "You guys are in a tough pickle, here's some awesome items of immense power from our vault."

Sigh...the society is always disappointing my bloatmage. It's always "Go collect this item of power and that item of power." It's never "You guys are in a tough pickle, here's some awesome items of immense power from our vault."

Um...actually, I think that's where you might be pleased with #4–26.

So is there an extra reward/Boon for playing in hard mode or is it just bragging rights? I am scheduled to play this in early April 2014 with 5 PCs in 10-11 tier.

Level 11 fighter
Level 11 summoner
Level 10 fighter
Level 10 oracle
Level 9 rogue

The level 10 oracle is built around the rings and bracelet combo that allows him to take half of everyone's damage and do quick heals to PCs

So is there an extra reward/Boon for playing in hard mode or is it just bragging rights? I am scheduled to play this in early April 2014 with 5 PCs in 10-11 tier.

Level 11 fighter
Level 11 summoner
Level 10 fighter
Level 10 oracle
Level 9 rogue

The level 10 oracle is built around the rings and bracelet combo that allows him to take half of everyone's damage and do quick heals to PCs

Bragging rights only

Bragging rights only

And I strongly would suggest avoiding Hard Mode. We had a Quick Channeling Cleric, with 6 players (11,11,11,11,10,10) and still had it very very rough without hard mode. That Oracle could die very very quickly doing that.

Heck, I don't recommend *playing* it without 6 players.

Sniggevert wrote:

Bragging rights only

And I strongly would suggest avoiding Hard Mode. We had a Quick Channeling Cleric, with 6 players (11,11,11,11,10,10) and still had it very very rough without hard mode. That Oracle could die very very quickly doing that.

Heck, I don't recommend *playing* it without 6 players.

And hard mode zaps away most of the 4-player adjustment, so moreso for hard. I think the key is going in ready. Our table of 10 10 10 9, with no particular uber-builds (Support Lore Oracle 10, Support Cleric 10, Zen Archer 10 who didn't hit very often, Rogue 9) managed Hard Mode+ (Hard Mode with some mistakes in the opposition's favor that made it more fun to play) because we blew a good amount of money on scrolls (I guess if we had an 11 cleric instead of 10 we wouldn't have needed to do so, since they were mostly 6th level scrolls--oh wait, they were all arcane so we would've needed a wizard).

So I got to run Hard Mode for John and I can definitely say some groups may have a hard time and some won't. The fight can vary as well as some fights one group will have no problem with another will have difficulty. The only happy thing about this was that it go named bullet banned, again.

One situation I love about this module is making players think about different aspects of their character in order to solve problems, watching a Druid and Necromancer work together was hilarious.

Just remember this phrase that seems to apply to some parties, if violence isn't working your not using enough.

The only benefit you get for doing hard mode outside of bragging rights is that playing hard mode would re-activate that mythic-tier boon from Gencon.

So I got to run Hard Mode for John and I can definitely say some groups may have a hard time and some won't. The fight can vary as well as some fights one group will have no problem with another will have difficulty. The only happy thing about this was that it go named bullet banned, again.

One situation I love about this module is making players think about different aspects of their character in order to solve problems, watching a Druid and Necromancer work together was hilarious.

Just remember this phrase that seems to apply to some parties, if violence isn't working your not using enough.

Wait, named bullet is banned?

Wait, named bullet is banned?

Sounds like a (joking?) statement made during game.

Wait, named bullet is banned?

Not according to the AR under Ultimate Combat.

Oh, OK. I mean, is it an instant victory to load up a gunslinger or archer with four or five of them? Sure. But it's a lot of spell slots of fairly high level from PFS perspective. You can also kill most enemies with a single chains of light, for instance, since that spell is pretty much indefensible for most enemies and allows coup de grace, and the Pearl of Power index indicates that 1 6th level slot is only worth a little more than 2 4th level slots. And it's teamwork, I guess, where the caster and the martial really work together for that win moreso than chains of light or other things. Teamwork is always better than solo acts in my book (but maybe that's why I like bards and support characters).

I basically agree with Mark.

At the end of the day, it can be hard for one "reasonably" build baddie to stand up to a single optimizer, let alone a full party of them. Even a very well built baddie of higher level can have trouble with a single optimized PC.

There had to be some delicate finesse in building Krune at 18th level to face 7th-11th level PCs without completely blowing them away. He could have potentially been given spells such as aroden's spellbane, winds of vengeance, ect. to make him exceptionally resilient, but would that have been the best thing for the campaign? That call comes down to individual perspective.

Overall, I personally liked the scenario, and I thought that Krune was put together well toward the goal of providing a hearty challenge for the experienced player without being a certain death sentence. Less experienced players may well have found him certain death, while skilled optimized could very well have had zero trouble or challenge from him.

Even as things stand Krune has to be played with a forced degree of character stupidity to fall to his enemies. The written tactics intentionally hamper him as otherwise he will demolish pretty much any level 7-11 group simply by teleporting away and preparing more.

Even as things stand Krune has to be played with a forced degree of character stupidity to fall to his enemies. The written tactics intentionally hamper him as otherwise he will demolish pretty much any level 7-11 group simply by teleporting away and preparing more.

It's true that his Achilles's Heel is that he isn't willing to retreat completely and just stay untouchable, building up his power and his empire in a place where the PCs will never find him (and if they do, just leave again), eventually killing each of the PCs at a moment when they are distracted and alone, rather than together and having just dropped expensive buffs knowing they'd be fighting him.

Well, that's why Pride isn't one of the opposed sins to Sloth!

Yeah but he isn't even willing to teleport to the starting area so he has a chance of getting some of his 1 round casting time high level summon spells off. Instead he stands there trying to hide in fogs or behind walls on the off chance he doesn't get disrupted. That isn't a winning strategy.

Yeah but he isn't even willing to teleport to the starting area so he has a chance of getting some of his 1 round casting time high level summon spells off. Instead he stands there trying to hide in fogs or behind walls on the off chance he doesn't get disrupted. That isn't a winning strategy.

He gets to teleport anywhere in his lair he wants, he's not stuck in that room.

andreww wrote:

Yeah but he isn't even willing to teleport to the starting area so he has a chance of getting some of his 1 round casting time high level summon spells off. Instead he stands there trying to hide in fogs or behind walls on the off chance he doesn't get disrupted. That isn't a winning strategy.

He gets to teleport anywhere in his lair he wants, he's not stuck in that room.

Well yes, obviously, but I was talking about running him as written and using his listed tactics. And they say he doesn't do so unless he is feeling overwhelmed by which time it may well be far too late.

When I have run Krune against weak groups, he has stayed in the room, used fogs and wall and wiped the party.

When I have run him against strong groups he generally takes 100-200 damage before getting to act and sees about a zillion magical aura thanks to Arcane Sight.

In those cases he plays cat and mouse with them for awhile, summoning things etc while the PCs eventually take him out.

I think his tactics are completely reasonable. While opening with Horrid Wilting for ~100+ is probably the most likely option to kill PCs, but not his best option for winning. Against a strong group Krune's focus has to be on not being attacked. He's surprisingly resilient against magical attacks but will go down in a round to a full attack from a strong party.

Gunslinger was not impressed.

:)

No, really, player had a ton of fun, and got to pull out all the stops for once and not feel guilty about it.

More please!

-j

** spoiler omitted **

And that is totally legit logic given his personality and length of sleep.

John, can you cross post that (with maybe a bit more!) to the Waking Rune GM thread? That information is super helpful for getting into his mindset.

John, can you cross post that (with maybe a bit more!) to the Waking Rune GM thread? That information is super helpful for getting into his mindset.

Will do.