That's been simmering a while, I'm guessing. I hope you feel better getting it off your chest. I'm not sure I know what conversations have gone before about too much offense, but while we might benefit from dialing it back as a group, I would suggest that we still need at least one that hits hard and often.
And I know it won't be me, so I will say nothing further on that subject. Instead, I'm shopping for new toys!
Oh, and for those of us that went swimming in slime, how do we determine the damage (and current condition) of our gear?
Interesting Path Abilities
Deadly Dodge - I like the idea of forcing my attacker to another adjacent creature, but it won't help if we are only fighting solo creatures
Defensive Move - negating attacks of opportunity due to movement from one enemy seems useful
Display of Dexterity - maybe an ace-in-the-hole for disable device skill checks with a +20 for an MP?
Feather Step - would I be able to run across the surface of, say, green slime? Asking for a friend.
Mirror Dodge - Strong candidate - when hit, teleport somewhere else? Very tempting for defense.
Pierce the Darkness - I do like 120' darkvision
Shadow Stealth - Thematic for the tiefling...
Supreme Stealth - Great for the scout
Transfer Magic - Stealing the magical effects on an enemy or "borrowing" a personal buff from an ally?
Vanishing Move - Swift action, free invisibility? Spent an MP, greater invisibility as a 6th-level caster? Like it very much.
Wall Run - Having been stuck in a pit recently, the idea of being able to just run up the wall has a certain appeal, you know?
Interesting Mythic Feats
Extra Path Ability - see list above
Improved Critical - increase critical multiplier, so kukris would threaten a crit on a 15 to triple the damage.
Two-Weapon Fighting - negate penalties on attack rolls for twf, so +2 to all attacks while dual-wielding
I will prune the list when I have time, but I'm leaning toward the vanishing move path ability, the mirror dodge ability, and the display of dexterity for the super-tough locks. And the Improved Critical mythic feat would actually make him hit hard enough to be noticed, but that's not been my focus and goes against the current thinking of Leothar, so maybe it waits and I take an extra path ability.
Always interested in your suggestions.
Yes, it's been simmering for a while.
Since I saw how frustrating this dungeon was, and since I saw the GM post how much he hated Mythic Vital Strike.
Mythic Paragon can enable legendary item spellcasting of 5th-level spells at CL10, even though we are only Tier 3.
@Enos, I think Display of Dexterity may be a good idea if the DCs are going to escalate even more.
Yes...it is only CL6. But it says Saving Throw (none). The issue is that it says Spell Resistance yes (object). But...with surges, I think that the SR can be overcome.
For Enos: vanishing move path ability, the mirror dodge ability, and the display of dexterity are all great abilities. Personally? I'd go for Vanishing Move.
Vanishing Move (Su)
When you wish to not be seen, you aren’t. As a swift action, you can make yourself invisible until the end of your turn. This effect ends if you do anything other than move. If you expend one use of mythic power when using this ability, it instead acts as greater invisibility using double your tier as your caster level.
By my reading of it, the swift action invisible for 1 round doesn't cost anything besides your swift action. Which means that you stay invisible for as long as you want, so long as you are just moving. That is amazing. And having greater invisibility for 6 rounds? That is really useful as well. So long as enemies can't see through invisibility, these are only positives.
As for the feat? The improved critical is nice. My only fear is that if an enemy is immune to critical hits, that leaves your crit fishing behind. Mythic Weapon Finesse would also be a great option. +5 damage on all of your attacks keeps your damage relevant, and it helps when you gets your crits as well.
Here are Leothar's proposed feats, rebuilt and de-optimized to a level of melee mediocrity that hopefully the GM is comfortable with:
1) Power Attack
3) Iron Will
5) Improved Iron Will
Bonus from Book 1: Step Up
1st Tier Mythic Feat: Mythic Paragon
7) Cunning
9) Flickering Step
3rd Tier Mythic Feat: Additional Path Ability
1st Mythic Path ability: Mythic Smite
2nd Mythic Path ability: Impossible Speed
3rd Mythic Path ability: Legendary Item (Shield); Legendary abilities are Legendary Fortification and Intelligent *2; Intelligent ability is spellcasting (Communal Air Walk, from the cleric list)
3rd Mythic Path ability (additional): Legendary Item (Shield); new Legendary abilities are Unyielding and Intelligent *2; new Cleric spells are Restoration and Air Bubble, then True Seeing.
Losing Mythic Power Attack drops his damage by 3 (if one-handing). Losing Weapon Focus drops his attack bonus by 1.
That should give us at least some of the problem-solving capabilities that a party of this level is expected to have. Can now handle flying foes (helping the whole party do so), invisible foes, Deeper Darkness, illusions, energy drain, and even underwater to a degree.
He'd like to get an adamantine shield before applying Legendary Item, though, since the shield being destroyed would be a huge loss.
Those two natural 1's (on the Suggestion spell and the TK) were really impactful. I didn't realize that it's not until Tier 7 that mythic grants any ability whatsoever to reroll saves. Improved Iron Will seems a necessity.
Is de-optimizing something that we are shooting for? If so...I suppose I could drop mythic power attack for an extra mythic ability and take Enduring Blessing.
If I do that, would See Invisibility, gained from Legendary Item, work on it? Just having See Invisibility up 24 hours seems like it would be really useful, and would make up for having less raw damage.
And if that is the case...well, when we hit Lvl 3 Dadna can cast Daylight. And if she casts it on an ally, then it has a 24 hour duration.
So....
Proposed Plan with combat de-optimization
* Tier 3 Ability: Legendary Item
* Tier 3 Feat: Extra Ability - Enduring Blessing
Dadna
* See Invisibility 24/hr duration
Adriel
* Read Magic 24/hr duration
Ian
* Resist Energy of Choice 24/hr duration (lvl 9)
* Daylight 24/hr duration (Once we hit lvl10)
Leothar
* Corruption Resistance 24/hr duration
Entire Party
* Mythic Endure Elements
--------------
What does everyone think? Is that more in line with the spirit of the campaign? Plus, it should be useful in helping us combat tricky foes. Especially as Dadna can see invisible enemies, tell Adriel where they are, and he can reveal them with glitter dust for everyone else.
Is de-optimizing something that we are shooting for?
I would really like to hear the GM's opinion on this, and maybe some of the stuff Leothar discussed.
Honestly, I don't think Ian needs to worry about 'de-optimizing'
and for what it's worth At 12th level, Ian's nimbus of light is treated as daylight for the purposes of affecting creatures with sensitivity to light.
I would not agree that this has been a failure. They party has overcome everything they have come in contact with. They only time I thought there might have been a TPK it did not happen.
Most of the tougher fights have some sort of tactics for the enemies. I try to follow them the best I can. Some of those tactics are totally meaningless because of the party make up. There are several encounters that say X won't cast Y spells at paladins or X will go after healers first, etc. Other fights you have defenses against their first set of actions running and when they figure it out they move on. There is a saying that no plan survives first contact in battle and it's true. I try to play the AP the way it is written. Once the APs directions for the encounter are run or obsoleted then it's up to me to run the enemies and I won't run them stupid unless they are. I try not to use my knowledge as GM about the party to make decisions for the enemies unless the enemy has information about the party or reasonably would.
I will say the 40DC on the locks was me. My reasoning was that they AP didn't give any for the dungeon below the citadel and I thought they would be higher than the Citadel. The DC for the citadel, without a key, was set at 35. Since it seems to me that Pathfinder like DD to work in multiples of 5 the next step was 40.
I am not consciously make non combat things tougher nor the combats. The shadow demon fight should have been hard for any party. Your solution was the only one I can think of. Blindfight would have helped some I think, but that is it.
I set this up with a set of rules and I intend to stick to them. Yes, I have really grown to dislike mythic vital strike. I had heard how awful it was but never seen it so didn't think it was that bad. It is. All my WotR games I have been in, no one ever used it; of course most haven't gotten this far. I pray you guys don't run into an enemy with it because I think it will cause deaths.
I have no plans to change the setup or have anyone make changes to characters. It's been a long time since I read all the AP books. I recently skimmed through the next book and it is very different from this one. I think Paizo likes to throw as many different subsystems into their APs as they can. This one has Mass Combat, City/Kingdom Building and Hex exploration. There may be more. So once you get into the next book it should feel different and will probably have different challenges.
Okay, then. No changes to my existing stats, but I will think how to use Tier 3 to better cover our gaps.
...Yes, I have really grown to dislike mythic vital strike...I pray you guys don't run into an enemy with it because I think it will cause deaths....I have no plans to change the setup or have anyone make...
I'd prefer to keep the mythic vital strike, just because it's kind of been Dadna's thing with one big hit at a time. It would feel weird to change it. But with this in mind, I'll have her go with Enduring Blessing and will forgo mythic power attack.
For Enos: vanishing move path ability, the mirror dodge ability, and the display of dexterity are all great abilities. Personally? I'd go for Vanishing Move.
By my reading of it, the swift action invisible for 1 round doesn't cost anything besides your swift action. Which means that you stay invisible for as long as you want, so long as you are just moving. That is amazing. And having greater invisibility for 6 rounds? That is really useful as well. So long as enemies can't see through invisibility, these are only positives.
As for the feat? The improved critical is nice. My only fear is that if an enemy is immune to critical hits, that leaves your crit fishing behind. Mythic Weapon Finesse would also be a great option. +5 damage on all of your attacks keeps your damage relevant, and it helps when you gets your crits as well.
Thanks, Dadna. I already have Mythic Weapon Finesse or my damage would be even less relevant than it is! I think the pressing issue seems to be those high DCs. I think I'm going to split the difference between your suggestions and Leothar's. Appreciate y'all's thoughts on what to do.
EDIT: I really need to read all of the posts before I post my replies. In light of DM's comments about the DCs being his adjustment, I'm far more torn. I was settled on Vanishing Move and Display of Dexterity (via extra path ability). If I'm not needing to hit DC 40 - and I do have the ability already to roll "with advantage" if I'd remember to use it - I'm tempted to take Vanishing Move and Mirror Dodge. Question for the DM: Does the hit for Mirror Dodge have to be lethal? It's probably too cheesy, but an ally could punch me to trigger my teleport...
@Enos - Mirror Dodge is absolutely amazing. Negating 1 hit per round and putting yourself out of danger? Hard to beat. There's a PFS scenario with an enemy who has it. Vanishing move is okay, I guess, but because Invisibility is such a common tactic for PCs to use I expect that enemies will be able to counter it more often than you might think. So I would suggest getting a Legendary Item with the Undetectable property.
The board ate my original reply Enos.
To be clears the AP says the doors in the Citadel, "upstairs", without the key have a DD of 35. The AP does not list a DC for the dungeon, "downstairs", and I determined it would be higher and went with the next step 40. I do not know what the DCs are for DD later in the AP as I have not looked at the details of those books. I would imagine if the AP uses 35 now they might get higher I just don't know.
As for cheese, I would say that a friend hitting you is not an attack.
To be clears the AP says the doors in the Citadel, "upst, without the key have a DD of 35. The AP does not list a DC for the dungeon, "downstairs", and I determined it would be higher and went with the next step 40. I do not know what the DCs are for DD later in the AP as I have not looked at the details of those books. I would imagine if the AP uses 35 now they might get higher I just don't know.
I knew part of this and wouldn’t ask you to forewarn me either way.
As for cheese, I would say that a friend hitting you is not an attack.
Really? Are you sure? Maybe think about it for a minute? Still no?
Seriously, I’m pretty sure I would rule the same or create some sort of limitation to prevent it from being abused. I don’t have a good mental image of how it compares to other abilities of the same level, so I don’t know if it would be overpowered if used as an occasional short-range d-door.
As for cheese, I would say that a friend hitting you is not an attack.Really? Are you sure? Maybe think about it for a minute? Still no?
Ok let me think about it. Hold on I'm thinking, I haven't said no yet. Just let me think.... Ye. No.
@GM, rules question before I commit to a bad decision. How does Gust of Wind interact with fog spells such as Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, and Cloudkill? Does it entirely disperse them, or only create a 5' wide clearance in its area of effect? I have seen differing interpretations.
If it entirely disperses them, it's a good counter to have. More specialized than Dispel Magic, but an auto-success. If it's just a 5' wide trough, that would probably get filled in again right away and make it useless.
After reading the spells in question I would say it would only do a line. It would clear in cloudkill for 1 round only. Stinking cloud probably only 1. Soild fog at least two.
hmmm, much busier today and tomorrow than normal, I'll get Ian upgraded Monday. I think we are still in rounds who are we waiting on?
Basically Ian and Ardriel are in rounds until Ardriel is cured of the slime. Once that is done rounds are over.
Ah, my bad. Enos will rush to Ardriel to double the amount of flame available for removing the slime before handing the Lady’s Gift back to her owner.
Later iterations of Divine Source grant access to subdomains and their spells as SLAs. Could we take this even though subdomains are not Core?
Basically Ian and Ardriel are in rounds until Ardriel is cured of the slime. Once that is done rounds are over.So Ardriel said:
"I cannot, but perhaps I can burn it away as Enos did." Ardriel concentrates, bonding with his shortsword to ignite it in flames and trying to cut the slime away.
Does that take care of the slime on Ardriel?
When I built Ian I was planning on taking Greater Surge (Su) as my 3rd lvl ability. But I don't think I've rolled surge once. So I'm looking at some other options.
One of the options I'm considering is Clarion Call (Ex) You bestow your wrath on your allies. As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to grant all allies within 30 feet the benefits of your active smite or challenge ability, directed at the same opponent you’re targeting with that ability. Only the constant effects from the smite or challenge are conferred with this ability, not the ones you can use only once. This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to your tier or until either the combat ends or the subject of the smite or challenge is dead or unconscious.
If my allies have Ian's benefits from Bastion of Good (the replacement for 'Smite') do they get Ian's Charisma score + 6 to their AC, or would it have to be their charisma modifier? Also, would they still get the benefit of half damage if within 10 ft.?
If anyone wants to look at Marshal abilities along with Ian's planned build and make some recommendations I'm all ears. The route I planned was to be able to 'share surges' if folks feel it's worth it I'm still willing.
Bastion of Good is not smite and wouldn't be covered by Clarion Call. If a class ability is replaced with another ability due to an archetype you don't have that ability. Bastion of Good specifically says it replaces smite not modifies it.
Right, I thought that might be the case, but since it permitted the challenge ability, I thought there may be some leeway. Still curious to see if anyone has any other ideas.
Enos' character sheet should be ready. Still need to get a complete status line done...
I think I have a few things figured out for Ian.
Mythic level 3:
Base Mythic Abilities: Recuperation
Marshal Path ability: Aura of Perseverance (Ex): Your leadership keeps your allies going even when they're at death's door. Allies within 30 feet of you don't become unconscious or disabled when reduced to 0 hit points or fewer. As soon as you and an ally at 0 hit points or fewer are more than 30 feet apart, that ally becomes unconscious or disabled. You can expend one use of mythic power to stabilize all dying allies within 30 feet and let all allies within this range ignore the staggered condition for a number of rounds equal to your tier.
mythic Feat: mythic Dazzling display
I’m assuming now that Ian is third mythic level that he can add a third Legendary Item Ability' to his ‘legendary’ sword. I’m considering making it ‘Intelligent’ along with unyielding, upgradable. The goal is to eventually give it spells. Also I need to remember to upgrade her to 'coldiron.'
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@Ian, one thing you might look to make more use of is Rally. We were hammered by multiple Nat 1's on saves against that shadow demon (as well as Leothar vs the Suggestion, and I think also against a Nabasu level-drain gaze). Rerolls are amazing and Marshal is the path that can hand them out.
It unfortunately is a swift rather than an immediate (the bard spell Saving Finale is so much better) but it can still be useful in a tough fight.
@Ian, one thing you might look to make more use of is Rally.
Your totally right Leothar, the idea of buffing when needed or using mythic stuff is so foreign to me that I forget their there.
When we get in those situations I'm trying to figure out what Ian should do. There are so many different options and none of them (other than hitting whatever with a sword) are super familiar. That's not entirely true, Inspiring Sword and dazzling display have sort of become his bread and butter.
I'm totally ok with the idea of one of the other players asking Ian to use the Rally.
Feat: Mythic Combat Reflexes
Path Ability: Burst Through
Asking this again (possibly for Tier 4): Later iterations of Divine Source grant access to subdomains and their spells as SLAs. Could we take this even though subdomains are not Core?
I haven't ignored your previous question, I've been mulling this one over and have been a bit busy lately. I've gone from yes to no to maybe and back again.
I think what I will do is fall back to my previous status for things that are non-core. If it make's you better at your path/role I will consider it.
I'm sure you know but anybody that takes divine source their first two domains are law and good since all of you are lawful good.
Not to be pushy, but are we waiting for people to finish their mythic level before we continue in game?
Sorry about the delay. I've been stewing over some choices and reconsidering past build options. Been feeling a bit frustrated and ineffective over the past couple of fights.
I'd like to swap Shadow Conjuration out of my 4th-level spell from the most recent Unsanctioned Knowledge feat to Freedom of Movement. It isn't relevant until level 13, but I feel like Freedom of Movement would be more helpful overall as we reach higher levels - particularly in dealing with Solid Fog and creatures with Grab. It might have made a difference in this fight - although I don't know if the Telekinesis use of throwing someone would have been affected or not.
I would also like to swap Hideous Laughter and Identify out for something else, as well, although I haven't quite figured out what yet. I'm on the fence about possibly swapping out Secure Shelter, as well, but I'm also not sure what to swap that one to, either. There might be a use for it down the line. I've limited myself to CRB-only spells for Unsanctioned Knowledge so far.
Does Divine Source grant the ability to use the domain abilities, as well? It doesn't say it does, so I don't think so, but I do find it odd that it allows you to cast the spells as an SLA and not use the domain abilities.
Mythic Tier 3
HP: +3
Tier 3 Ability: Eldritch Flight
Mythic Feat: Extra Path Ability (Divine Source)
Domains: Law and Good
Legendary Item Ability (Tier 3): Spellcasting
Spells - Dispel Magic 1/day, Gust of Wind 1/day
I did not think we were allowed to make any changes regarding past decisions. Are we?
That's why I'm asking, particularly for the Shadow Conjuration spell that I can't cast yet.
I also haven't actually used Hideous Laughter or Identify yet. Hideous Laughter I'm particularly regretting.
I have allowed Ardriel to change the spell choices from Unsanctioned Knowledge for the levels he can't cast yet, so 3rd and 4th level spell.
Rules Question: In a different group I'm in, the GM ruled that intelligent items cast their SLAs themselves, so it doesn't require an action from the PC. However, I don't know if this is the actual rule, and I haven't seen an official answer. So for this table, how do SLAs and action economy work with intelligent items?
Spellcasting: This item allows its bearer to cast a limited number of spells as spell-like abilities. This ability can be taken more than once. Each time it's taken, the bonded creature gains 5 points to spend on selecting what spells the item can cast. A spell costs a number of points equal to its level (minimum 1). The bearer can then activate the item to use each spell-like ability once per day. By spending double the cost, the bearer can use each spell-like ability three times per day. All spells must come from the same class's spell list. No spell can have a level higher than the bonded creature's tier. The caster level for these spells is equal to double the bonded creature's tier. The save DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell level + the bonded creature's tier.
According to this it "allows its bearer to cast". To me that says you have to use an action to use it not the item.
That was my interpretation of the ability as well, although I have read accounts that go the other way.
I do suspect that the alternate interpretation comes from the rules on Intelligent Items in general (from the CRB).
Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner. Intelligent items act during their owner’s turn in the initiative order.
I believe the logic goes, "Since the Spellcasting is a 'power of the Intelligent Item', the Intelligent Item can act on its own to activate the SLA granted by the Spellcasting ability."
Anyway, I interpreted the Spellcasting ability the same way our GM did, but I can see the argument the other way.
Yup, I'm more than happy with that. Thanks to Adriel for the quote. I think, though, that DM Trawets' ruling on it is fair, especially as it is based upon the item in question, rather than the rule in general.
Yep. As always, "specific trumps general" can be applied.
I only looked at the specific path ability and it says a number of the "the bearer can" so that seemed clear to me. I was aware of the rules in general for magic items but as Ardriel said "specific trumps general."
Are we ready to continue?
Are we ready to continue?
why yes, yes we are....
I believe so
Yes
Upon being handed the Banner Ian ...
Did someone hand Ian the banner?
Did someone hand Ian the banner?
I'm moving things along. It seemed that was the intent.
Deciding whether or not to summon the planetar is putting the cart before the horse, since we first need to mount the Sword before we can summon it. The real question is whether or not we clear the rest of the basement before taking the banner back upstairs.
Is the red cloth Ardriel found the banner or was that something else?
I believe the red cloth was the banner. It was described as such when we entered the room, and when we saw the various fake banners.