GM Foxy's 2nd Legacy of Fire

Game Master Foxy Quickpaw

It's fort save.

By the way: Any thoughts how to resolve an area gaze from multiple creatures? Would it stack like poison, so you got to make one roll at DC 14+2+2+2? Or would you drown in rolls you have to make (4 times DC14)?

I run a encounter with 6 yeti last spring for RotRL and I made all players to roll against each of the 6 gaze attacks, 6 rolls per character.

I do not think there is any rule for 'gaze' doses.

Everyone, make sure you understand your options when facing a gaze attack. You can just open your eyes and face the saves, avert the eyes/look just slightly for a 50% chance of facing the gaze and a 50% misschance when attacking, or outright closing your eyes avoiding the gaze but acting like blinded.

It's fort save.

By the way: Any thoughts how to resolve an area gaze from multiple creatures? Would it stack like poison, so you got to make one roll at DC 14+2+2+2? Or would you drown in rolls you have to make (4 times DC14)?

I don't see why it would stack, so I assume its the second scenario. Also Poison Stacking still means, you must male one save per instance of the initial poisoning, only the effect saves get lumped together.

And so, I have been ninjaed.

For the good this time I see :)

Foxy Quickpaw wrote:

It's fort save.

By the way: Any thoughts how to resolve an area gaze from multiple creatures? Would it stack like poison, so you got to make one roll at DC 14+2+2+2? Or would you drown in rolls you have to make (4 times DC14)?

I don't see why it would stack, so I assume its the second scenario. Also Poison Stacking still means, you must male one save per instance of the initial poisoning, only the effect saves get lumped together.

Gaze has no initial save the way poison has. If I understand it right, you save against it every round. Those things fly. I could simply park them at the ceiling and have you make rolls. You (and Heshan) got +5 on your will save. That's a 55% chance to make a single save. And a 9% chance to make all 4 saves. And it has no: Once you saved, you're immune to this rast's gaze attack.

Roryx has a crazy high save of +11. He'd have 65% to make all four saves. For the others it's around 32%.

I think there should be some challenging fights every now and then and I might see that too negative, but if you don't have something to blast them away - and Heshan is using MM instead of something that really helps - that's very dangerous fight.

And not because of bad decisions, or bad luck, but because of bad design in the combination of how gaze attack works and putting large numbers of those monsters in one place.

Am I wrong?

Well, Heshan can actually cast obscuring mist. That way we only have to face the gaze of whatever we have in front. It would destroy our ranged combat strength, but it is probably a better alternative than facing the gaze attacks.

Also "Only looking directly at a creature with a gaze attack leaves an opponent vulnerable", so, if you want to make things a bit easier, you can rule we are only looking at the rast we are attacking, and we are considered to be averting eyes towards the rest, giving us 50% chance to not face the gaze each round.

I hate to do this to our party, but Foxy has the right of it "bad design", but it's much worse than what he's suggesting. Rast packs are terribly under-
CR'ed because of how gaze attacks work:

"Each opponent within range of a gaze attack must attempt a saving throw each round at the beginning of her turn in the initiative order ... A creature with a gaze attack can actively gaze as an attack action by choosing a target within range. That opponent must attempt a saving throw but can try to avoid this as described above. Thus, it is possible for an opponent to save against a creature’s gaze twice during the same round, once before the opponent’s action and once during the creature’s turn.

For scale, I have drawn the 30' gaze radius of the one attacking Ohrmizd on the map as a dashed red circle...

Because it didn't come up with the K planes check, none of us know about it the gaze attack, so we haven't been warned to try and avoid their gaze or anything... (Note to Foxy - you should almost always warn players about a gaze ability as the first thing given on a knowledge check; they are just nasty).

So previous turn, Ohrmizd needs to make 4 saves vs paralysis (he was within range of all 4 on his init). Manuun might have started his init with 1 in LOS with him (the 1st rast that attaced Ohrmizd). Roryx was in LOS of 2 at the start of his init. The rest of us were starting in the curve of the stairwell...

This turn, all of us but Roryx would make 4 saves (barring attempts to avoid their gaze, see the gaze rules).

As a secondary note, Foxy, you missed a grapple check on Ohrmizd (and if successful associated Con damage; blood drain), from the grab effect on the bite.

@ foxy, as a Q was this some sort of a summoning trap that could be detected with a perception check (and then maybe disarmed)?

On a tactical note, I propose running like hell into the stairwell.
1)They might not chase us.
2) if they do, we can fight in the curve of the stairwell, and thus only have 1 or 2 gazes to contend with, not 4...
3) these might just be some sort of a summoning trap, and having sprung it, they might just dissipate after a bit...

From D20pfsrd:(emphasis is mine)
Gaze (Su)

A creature with a gaze attack can actively gaze as an attack action by choosing a target within range. That opponent must attempt a saving throw but can try to avoid this as described above. Thus, it is possible for an opponent to save against a creature’s gaze twice during the same round, once before the opponent’s action and once during the creature’s turn.
...
...

So you defintiely don't need to make the save for all creatures, but only for the one you are looking at. And as soon as we are aware of the problem we would use the averting Eyes tactic.

I have been in another game with Omari where this discussion came up, and I can tell you it is a can of worms. So I will leave it to Omari.

But there is also this:

Allies of a creature with a gaze attack might be affected. All the creature’s allies are considered to be averting their eyes from the creature with the gaze attack, and have a 50% chance to not need to make a saving throw against the gaze attack each round. The creature can also veil its eyes, thus negating its gaze ability.

At the time this was used as an argument to confirm that even if you are not engaged with a creature with an 'always on' gaze effect or attack (if you are a creature's ally for example), you still need to either avert your eyes, or do the save.

Of course this is not a problem for a gang of Rasts, because:

A creature is immune to gaze attacks of others of its kind unless otherwise noted.

But may/should constitute a problem for everyone else in the area of effect of the gaze, so to speak.

Well... crap.

Agreed with running out like hell.

I am sorry you have to face this a second time Roryx.

Ok, we are retreating then.

I still think there is some merit on Heshan filling the garden with the obscuring mist. That way, less people has to face a gaze while retreating to the stairs while there is no movement or AC penalty as we would have by covering our light sources or closing our eyes.

I think Heshan acted before his turn. I posted as if his action this round was casting obscuring mist as he intended in his last post.

I have drawn the covered area in the map.

By any chance, is part of the rasts' damage fire?

Ohm, just realized I failed to properly adjust Ohrmizd stats in the last post. His AC should be 26 not 24, after switching to protection judgement.

Right. Sorry about that. It can happen on this upcoming turn.

A single round of combat in a whole week does not seem natural to us...

Have we lost our steam in here team?

The rast gets out the manicure set to sharpen the nails, while waiting for something to happen.

@Roryx
The mist and the looking away bring some miss chances. Want to roll them yourself?

I would rather leave those to you, unless you prefer me to roll.

Just want to bring up that I rolled a 50% mischance, but Manuun's player pointed me correctly I should have rolled only for concealment (20% mischance) instead of total concealment, as per the rules of "averting" your eyes against a gaze attack.

EDIT Also Ohrmizd would be happy if you zap those beasts with some cool combat casting additional attack spell, because he is really dying out here :D

I'm not 100% sure about the combination of all those rules with the gaze rules alone being the horror. I'd simply go fo r50% miss chance. If you're ok with that I'll roll it.

I am not a master of the gaze rules vs concealment also - so for me whatever you say goes :D

@Ohrmizd: Yeah, I need to start remembering to do that more. But my concentration rolls suck big time still.

@ all, I think we are not understanding the plan... I have illustrated what the end state should be doing on slide 3. We go up to the top of the stairs and surround the exit from the stairs. Heshan lays more fog. The Rasts can only come up the stairs 1 at a time; trying to push past each other will draw AoO's (even if they are smart enough to try it; they are only animal intelligence). With the fog, only 1 rast will be in gaze range at a time, while 5 of us can beat on it...

@Manuun : You don't need to make a save vs Paralysis, you are in the fog - you can't see it if there is 5' between you and it, and you took a step back. You are however, shooting totally blind, at a miss chance of 50% (assuming you pick the right square). Not to mention you can't shoot around the curve of the stairwell and Roryx probably won't be happy about being between you and the target, especially when you can't see all that well. Finally, I would recommend drawing a melee weapon for what is to come - otherwise you will be either firing blind from a distance with allies in the way, or drawing AoO's with every attack...

The first rast moves out of the stairwell and moves past the others to make room. It gets a hit from Roryx, claws at manuun for shooting into melee and also bites him.

the second Rast follows biting at Ohrmizd. The third lines up for when there will be room.

Current situation is that you have one rast flying above you, one in the midst of you and one stuck in the stairwell. And you are all standing around the five foot entrance, with Manuun obviously unaware of the fog one step back.

Rasts have an intelligence score of 3, which is enough to be capable of understanding speach and above the animal level of 1-2.

Omari and Khedron have the opportunity to finish the wounded rast before the next round starts.

Would it be possible to hit the area with an electrified fireball without looking at them?

Sure. But you'd have a hard time not hitting your companions.

I like more when you roll like that Foxy :)

I like more when you roll like that Foxy :)

Me too. It pleasantly shortens the fights.

I am unsure if Manuun is aware he is up, but I think he has been busy today.

Perhaps we should have a serious talk here after the combat is resolved. Something serious is going on when every player in the campaign seems to have a different interpretation of how the combat is happening and what rules apply, and make their posts according to these different conceptions.

Pathfinder can be messy sometimes. That is why I left the adjudication, and miss rolls to Foxy.

@Manuun
As you stepped away first und shot then, you're more than 5 foot away in the mist and see nothing. So no paralyze.

Great Thanks! Then I hit him for loads minimal damage :-)

Well, you didn't hit him, because total concealment and 50% miss chance, which I rolled badly for you.

serves me right.

@Omari
Why? You step out of sight and have full concealment. Or did I misread your action?

@Omari

Why? You step out of sight and have full concealment. Or did I misread your action?

I can't take a 5' step to get out of reach of the Rast and still able to reach Khedron for the healing, so I have to use a move action. Thus, leaving the square which I start in (inside the rast's reach) draws an AoO.

People, just to let you all know I am traveling from tonight until Saturday for a small vacation. Should have access to wifi and whatnot, but probably not much time to post. So if you need to press on, feel free to bot me.

I have jury duty today, so I may or may not be available for the next few days.

Damn it! I even have Terran & Ancient Osiriani in Ohrmizd's profile as next languages to learn! xD

Nope no Terran or ancient Osirani from Manuun. Is it okay to roll Linguistics to try to read it?

It's ok to try.

Waiting for Manuun to toll some serious numbers for Linguistics, before answering.

Don't have those languages on me either.

Well, if Manuun can't figure it out, I say we go back upstairs and rescue the old prisoner... In the interests of the narrative, I'm guessing he understands Ancient Osiriani.

Ohrmizd brought up Ancient Osiriani. I'm only offering text in terran or some rough translation for a really good linguistics roll.

Before this runs in circles. There is the spell comprehend languages. If you consider resting anyway.

I am a bit confused now. So, it was Roryx who fell down somewhere and not just the device or earth moving?

Yes. The device took Roryx down. That you didn't see this, explains your calm post about it. XD

I assume it is working as if it was a lift?