Stay away from dangerous looking caverns. I can only assume that you're not nearly as awesome as any of our PCs and would probably die a very gruesome death should you find yourself wandering into the Mouth of Doom.
Nodding back to the group, Raziel plods onwards as they approach, crossing the bridge into the next area, and again scouting the area with a similar approach as they go.
We're starting to get to that part of dungeon delving that always gets me wondering how it should be played out - ideally, Raziel would be moving up front scouting - how do we translate that in such a way that will not bog the game down, or clog it with Stealth and Perception rolls in every one of my posts? :D
Discussing :D
The thing is, constantly taking 20 on Perception is completely unnaceptable for the sheer time it takes just to move from one room to the other - but going into a dungeon crawl (mainly one like this) without looking for traps is begging to get pummeled - I guess if one could constantly take 10 it might actually make sense and account for the slow pace expected when navigating such areas?
On the other hand, the game dynamics may suffer also - imagine the scout/rogue cannot post for a day or two when you had setup a (logical) moving order which places him up point, relaying information to the others? The game can't just stop because of that, right?
Dunno, I've always thought about these things and how they impact PbP, but never really got in touch with them until I played a summoner whose Eidolon was 'scouting focused' - the game didn't last much (and I've gotta say, what an amazing character to play - you actually have a lot of stuff you can do through your eidolon + playing the summoner itself. I really enjoyed it, and would most likely be the kind of scouting character I would bring to Rappan Athuk, but that is a different discussion :D), but on that occasion, while the group was in a room, the Eidolon was already out scouting, and we were able to keep a decent pace - once the group was done with a room, I already had the feedack from the eidolon regarding the next areas, and we could decide how to proceed based on it.
In this particular situation, I'm not sure how we should set it up - define some sort of marching order? Assume that Raziel is always stealthing? Not stealthing in corridors? Always taking 10, and taking 20 in rooms? Ideas?
Offtopic: Went back and checked that Eidolon... Disable Device +14, Perception +12, Stealth +18 for a Master Summoner lvl1 - so broken, and yet soooo useful :D
Yeah like hound said, I have seen players take a rolling take 10 on both stealth and perception, take 20 for a special occassion, like, "I'm sure there's got to be a secret door here".
See take 20 takes time, and time means random encounter checks. Random encounters are annoying time wasters that don't usually yield treasure.
We're going to figure this out by just jumping into it. That's why we're playing MoD and not just Rappan Athuk, go! or Slumbering Tsar, go!
This is our test run to find out what works for us.
What I would like to do is just forget we are playing pathfinder, forget everything we know about pathfinder. Just play make-pretend :)
Like remember when you were a kid playing cops and robbers or whatever and you were like bang bang I shot you! But your brother's like No! I shot you first!
Let's just play cops and robbers and use this ridiculous ten thousand page rulebook we have sitting here to check who shot who first when we aren't sure.
Just forget about the numbers and mechanics, they're in the book, the book has that covered. All we need to know to play cops n robbers is "I'm a robber I want to rob the bank. I have a gun." and "I'm a cop I want to stop the robber, I also have a gun."
I ran MoD again a few weeks ago tabletop as a one off.
Everybody rolled 4d6 drop the lowest in order and made a character with whatever they got. No names no story just "you are in a room with 6 doors."
I had really forgotten how wacky it was. If you try to run it or play it all RAWnal retentive you'll give yourself an aneurism.
Like, within 10 minutes the party was separated and couldn't get back together for over 3 hours.
Stuff like that. You just roll with it.
Last year I used a roll of gridded gaming paper taped to this enormous table, and just added each room as it was discovered, in permanent sharpie. We played through the whole dungeon on the tactical grid, turn based. It was ok. They got sick of it part way through level two so they left and did other stuff and when they needed the backdoor access to Rappan Athuk later at level seven the mite druid found a huge colony of giant spiders messing up the ecosystem in the forest of hope and told them he would lead them to a new homeland where they could find plenty of dire rats to eat. He marched them across country on the back of his bumblebee mount and flooded the entire dungeon with giant spiders who treated the party as honored guests from that day forward.
This time MoD was way more fun. I think four out of six players had seen the inside of the dungeon before, but different parts. But once in a while someone would be like oh shit I remember this room, don't step there! We didn't care about the meta it was just a one shot game. We had just the small sized chessex mat. Left it blank most of the time, kept mini's handy. I would always describe a room first, not draw it. If it was a weird shaped room I would sketch it after I described it and then wipe it away right away so we stayed in our minds. When combat broke out I would draw the room and we would switch to full on standard pathfinder tactical battle grid but as soon as combat was over we would wipe the map and go back to theater of the mind. The party was separated for hours at a time, looking for each other. We didn't take any kind of turns, people just announced when they wanted to do something. It worked really well for MoD.
About the dungeon though, I have run it before entirely in turn based gridded fashion moving mini's six squares at a time through the whole dungeon, and I've done it really freeform. They both worked fine. My group enjoyed the freeform more. I think they both took about the same time (like a 6-8 hour session per level.)
I have the maps already in D20Pro format with the "fog of war" set up to reveal things one room at a time and all that.
I could run it either way, honestly I freakin' love playing pathfinder as a straight up wargame.
This dungeon will catch some people off guard though. Some of you guys might not have played a lot of stuff like this before, I'm not sure. I guess you would say it challenges the player a lot more. The last time we played the party didn't roll many dice outside of combat.
Please please please don't go out and read it, spoilers would really make this dungeon 100% not worth playing IMO. It was written by this guy Matt Finch. I think he was basically the guy that figured out it was legal to publish retro-clones. His game is called Sword's and Wizardry. It's a copy of original DnD.
This guy is very interesting. He wrote this little free pamphlet called "An Old-School Primer". It's free. I think it's considered a heretical tract on Paizo. I saw a thread about it once and a it got raked through the coals severely by the paizonians. They were just taking it the wrong way though.
You'll be happy to know I just finished listing all the clues and potential side treks, plot hooks and so forth we have found since the start - some parts of the Gameplay thread made for a very nice reading :D
Is everyone ok with going this slow? I'm ok with it if you all are, long as you know I'm always here and able to keep up whenever people start posting.
You already know my feelings about this one Grimmy - I probably wouldn't be able to keep up with a game that moves at breakneck speed. But this one is almost not moving at all...
Well I can keep up with very fast and on the flipside I don't mind running a game that moves slow if that's what everyone in that game wants, but there should be a pace defined and agreed to by all so that it's clear things are going the way they are by design and not because of disinterest.
I won't scrap a game if it's serving a purpose, I just need to know it's not in limbo.
So the name of the game right now is to find out which is going on here for each of you.
I'll be honest here - I have played in more than one model of PbP that work:
- One of the first games I played was kinda harsh as far as posting rates went. The GM posted about three times a day at set hours, and everyone was supposed to post at least something before those set times. Of course, every once in a while this was not possible, but most of the time, and quite surprisingly, it worked, even if people only posted an OOC quic comment from their phones saying 'I tag along with the others' :D
- In another one, the GM posted about twice a day - usually one massive post before he left for work, where he would catchup on everyone's actions, RP, etc. And other posts usually late at night, when he would do a second catchup. This one also seems to work - there are times when it slows down a tad because no one really has nothing in particular to add (the GM would then move the game along), or in combat situations, but overall he took it upon himself to advance the game based on people's main intentions and ideas;
- The best paced game I have played in (and still do) benefits from several things in my opinion - the players are interested in the game, which means it never stops moving, sometimes slower, sometimes faster, but it always moves ahead. There is at least one or two posts a day, but more than that, the posts are proactive instead of reactive, and they are clearly bent on actions that will keep the game moving. The only real set rule is that if we are in a combat situation, and there is a player absent for 24 hours, the GM bots him. But bottom line, the players and GM are both interested in having the game moving (it just broke 5000 posts!) - there is no stalling feeling (once in a while the GM pokes people to move along) because everyone contributes for it to move;
- I have seen a combination of the above possibilities work in more than one situation, with the necessary adaptations, and quite successfully, but there is one thing in common - everyone needs to contribute to moving the game along.
I don't want to sound blunt or an a**, but I have seen plenty games dying when it tries to cater to the slower posters instead of the fastest, or the average ones - heck, I have been on the slower end, and noticed an amazing game dying away because of that. It was agreed between me, the players and GM that they would not wait for me before moving on - I would retcon whenever I could, and try to be more active in combat situations (this game was seeing something like 20-30 posts while I was asleep :D) - as long as everyone understood the agreement (mainly me - I accepted it and never once felt left out) the game kept on moving along quite well, but we still lost a character because of it.
Scenario 1.)"I don't see any reason to post when I check the thread."
I could be wrong but I have a hunch that for some of you the lull in posting we are seeing right now is not disinterest, just an awkward adjustment to dungeon-crawling mode.
Like, people probably visit the thread, don't see anything new to react to, and so they don't post anything.
There are many fixes for that, we could come up with a more procedural approach, define S.O.P.'s and automate a lot of the exploration, but that is not my first choice. I'm not saying I won't consider it, but I know there's a funner way, the trick is we have to mess around a little to find it. It's like a rhythm, like jamming with a band.
So for now, if this is you, here's how you let me know if you want to keep going:
Everytime you visit the thread post something. Just anything. Hound is good at this. We'll see a post like "Hound twitches." There's always something you can post.
-Internal monologue in italics - good
-Dialogue someone can respond to - better
-Dialogue that suggests a course of action - even better
-Ask a question about the environment - crucial
Not to mention actually doing something, there's always something you can do, you don't have to wait for a stimulus to react to. Eli has some really good examples of this, even when Raziel is scouting he's relating how far back he stays, where he stands in relation to the party and the environment, he's marking things with chalk. This stuff isn't just fluff, it makes a difference. It's actually the crux of the whole game.
What I don't want you to do is post a bare perception check and think the ball is in my court. When I see this I try not to ignore it, but it pretty much doesn't mean anything to me. If there was something in your surroundings with a DC to perceive I would have spoilered it with the DC, called for the check, or just rolled it for you.
Tangent about that:
My favorite sessions are with players who declare actions in plain descriptive language. Then I call for a check when it's needed and translate the results back to them in plain descriptive language. At home this happens with my least and my most experienced players, it is the ones in the middle who look at the sheet first and make a lot of unprompted skill checks. I'm not saying I want you to adopt that modality full-stop, it would be a huge time drag in PbP.
Imagine,
2:44 PM "I want to swing from the chandolier."
4:15 PM "Ok make an acrobatics check."
6:50 PM "Ok, I got an 18."
11:14 PM "Ok you swing from the chandolier."
No good. Huge time drag. So by all means, when you post with your intended actions, go ahead and drop what you think or know to be the relevant rolls. It's a time-saver. Just try to keep the mind-set that you can try anything and the rules systems are only there to determine the outcome.
You will find that thinking this way will allow for fast loose play when we all get used to it together, and this frame of mind will serve you better for dealing with some of the types of challenges that are written into these modules I'm running. Remember they were written for AD&D and 0D&D and converted to 3.x later. You'll see what I mean really soon.
Scenario 2.) "I'm not that into it but I feel like I have to finish what I started."
Dude. That isn't even a thing. You won't be letting anyone down if you withdraw. This isn't like other PbP's where people lose there investment in a character if a game folds. There are scads of other PC's waiting in the wings and other adventure parties already bumbling around in this sandbox.
No matter what happens to one particular gameplay thread, players who like their character will be able to continue with that character. The dungeon isn't going anywhere either.
And you're not going to hurt my feelings.
It's not a coincidence I recruited for short introductory low-level adventures, rather than recruiting for a 1-20 Rappan Athuk game. MoD, WA, and VotS are about me getting a feel for PbP while also introducing my DM style and my version of this setting to the player base.
I knew very well it wasn't going to be for everyone. I expected a much higher rate of attrition, and the fact that only 3 out of like 24 players have withdrawn is something I'm honestly still puzzling out. If it's because everyone's relatively happy or at least intrigued to see where this is going, that's fine, but I really hope no one is just plodding along out of a sense of duty because that would be super depressing! (^_^)
So if you are scenario 2, seriously speak up, don't feel bad, the game will be fine and if you change your mind later you can re-apply, you won't be blacklisted :p
Spoiler:
I have to say though, while I didn't plan it this way, MoD and to some extent WA have both served to show right up front what some will consider the warts of my DM style. I didn't manufacture these situations that left both parties massively sidetracked and broke, but I resisted the urge to course correct, even though I was afraid you guys would riot!
Ok well let us know realistically what you can do, that way everyone is on the same page.
My idea was to slow down MoD a bit because I gathered from the feedback that some folks were overwhelmed.
To be clear, my idea of a slow game is everyone posting once per day, at least five days per week, and giving notice for any absence greater than 48 hours.
During combat my plan is to delay you after 24 hours and skip you after 48. I don't like to bot PC's myself, and I see other solutions like letting another player pilot your character or giving you limited plot immunity as necessary evils only for special circumstances, not routine occurrences.
That might be a totally wacky definition of slow, I'm not sure, but from my point of view anything slower than that is almost indistinguishable from "dead in the water".
That being said, if you guys want something slower than that, let's define it and if there are enough people who want that to field a team, I will run it.
So, if scenario 3 is you, let us know something concrete. How fast is too fast for you, how often can you realistically post?
Sorry to pop in here, but figured that since this is still a live thread for me I should.
When everyone applied to this group of campaigns, I believe it was made clear that there would be mixing of the groups along the way. I think that Grimmy did this for two reasons, to give us a chance to find other players we worked well with, and to allow the groups to sort of bond around posting pace. This is one reason I moved, because it fit with the IC part of the campaign and was what I though the intention of the campaign was.
As for me, I am in one campaign which is currently somewhere around 13,000 IC posts and 6,000 OOC posts in just over 18 months. I am in another one, which is probably about to die, which just hit 5,000 in 3 years. I have also been in more than two dozen others that died, usually because the DM went awol, but sometimes because of player apathy.
It is not so much about the speed of posting, although there is a finite amount of slow before people quit checking, it is about the quality of the posts. As Grimmy has said, posting simple, but well thought out posts is the key to keeping the campaign running. For me, when things slow down, I start to forget what a character is all about and then the campaign starts to feel like an obligation rather than a game. Also, as Grimmy said, one of the biggest time wasters is when people play actions, but do not add a relevant roll.
"I check the statue." can take 2 days to resolve without a Know(religion) or Know(planes) or something. On the other hand, it can be done in minutes if Grimmy is around, and he frequently is, and the player included the relevant roll. This is most important with bluff, diplomacy, sense motive and/or perception in social situations. When searching a dungeon, people should always be dropping the relevant rolls, this should just be second nature. Acrobatics to cross the ravine, climb to go up, ride to keep the drider from throwing you, etc.
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I plan to rejoin you once I have finished cleansing the blight from the forest. I certainly hope that you all are still here in once piece and hopefully at about the same level when I get back.
So my latest posting infrequency stems from poor time management on my part. A few things have changed since I started this game:
I began my first full time job with opportunity for career growth.
A tree fell through my roof and really dusted a PC (that clean up job took a few weekends).
I began a serious relationship with a wonderful gal.
Each time one of these things has come barreling into my life, I had to go through a period of readjustment, with the latest (me starting a relationship), I'm readjusting again to accommodate this new person who I spend a majority of my down time with now. So posting will be slow for at least a little while.
All of that being said, usually in dungeon situations, I defer to someone else to make the decisions on what to do unless I have reason to object (I'm notorious for trying to push the rogue into checking out the next room for us in my home game). If it makes anyone feel better, I'm usually watching the thread and even though I don't post, I try to stay aware of what's going on. I'll start taking a page out of The Hound's book and making sure to post reactions or small things to move the story forward (even if its just "Q goes and looks down the other hallway").
I'll own up to 50/50 scenarios 2 and 3. I've less time to devote to this stuff these days and that time has been used to keep the games I'm Dming up and running.
So in fairness to you all, I think I will take this opportunity to gracefully bow out. Thanks to Grimmy running the game and have fun everyone.
@Ogrim, no problem. Like I always said, I always appreciated that your posts were well thought out if infrequent. I could tell you took time to get up to speed before posting.
If you ever find yourself wanting to jump back in to one of the games you'll have a seat. Good luck with your games, happy gaming!
I can relate to that Ogrim, and in all honesty I have recently tuned down the games I play so I can focus on the ones I want to stick with - makes perfect sense.
If necessary I can try and re-think Raziel to fit the divine needs of the group, though I'll admit I'm kinda getting attached to the tiefling ;)
I could probably druid-ify Q if it becomes necessary. If I do it just right, I may even keep him from overlapping with Ghae. Druids can cast cure spells right?
So I can't really mess with the map from where I'm working today, do you guys more or less get the layout?
About a 30' x 20' room only door is the one you guys just entered through. Sketchy dungeon guys are trying to get past you to leave down the same hall you came in from.
I'm trying to use d20pro for fog of war effect, but it's meant for VTT not PbP, so I have to run it in two machines to get the DM view and the Player view.
Look into MapTools. It is not that hard to learn and exports easily as a pdf or some other picture which can be loaded onto most hosts - Google, Photobucket, etc.
