Please remind me who all was involved in collecting the bits of wreckage from the life pod, as well as who may have touched the stasis pod directly.
Carl, was the wreckage put in stasis of some kind or was it simply frozen? How long would it have been on your ship before being put in stasis/ frozen, or was it canned and frozen/put in stasis before being placed in your hold?
I realize I could simply go back through the posts, but I am hoping I can get the answers without doing that.
Anahita was present after the crash, but mostly as a fire bear shaped elemental and did not touch the pod nor the occupant.
Made her Fortitude save as well, in case. Do tell me if she's carrying any extra living 'passengers', she can sense these things. :)
Lurch, I just spotted you in the Cafe leaving as Phae, didn't remember you were there, is your character headed elsewhere for a new scene, or got a few? I'd inquired who was present, didn't see many responses beyond a two, I think.
Would breath of life work? I know there's an ion stone that gives it's 'wearer' regeneration, so that could be an effective, if somewhat expensive, torture device.
yes, it would, but only within 1 round of death.
i don't know of that stone, but it would work.
Please remind me who all was involved in collecting the bits of wreckage from the life pod, as well as who may have touched the stasis pod directly.
Carl, was the wreckage put in stasis of some kind or was it simply frozen? How long would it have been on your ship before being put in stasis/ frozen, or was it canned and frozen/put in stasis before being placed in your hold?
I realize I could simply go back through the posts, but I am hoping I can get the answers without doing that.
Vare showed up after the fact and never touched any debris or anything... might still be relevant.
Souls and undead, my two cents:
1) Speak with dead only conjures up a facsimile of the prior living being, which, retains memories, and slight personality, thus being able to potentially resist the spell. Not actual speaking with souls going on. Spell write up details that in the long description.
2) Pharasma, my favorite Goddess of the Golarion pantheon, is against undead for what I understand (it's left vague intentionally for players to adopt, IMHO), due to the interruption of the cycle of life and its natural process: live, die, decay, rebirth/growth. Plus, in some cases, due to the questionable trapped 'essence' (soul, spirit, life energy, what have you- even a quasi form of un-aging), anything that interrupts her portfolio of judging a person if there is a need, it mucks up that process and is no good. Plus, undead are, in essence, not a part of the natural order of things. It requires extreme emotions and either an external magic investment, or violation of the original body/spirit to corrupt, yet again, pointing to disruption of the natural process she's been charged with as part of her portfolio.
3) Vampires, and other intelligent undead, I feel, are the original soul/spirit. The lesser undead, (zombies, etc) are mindless and thus without their original spirit/souls, therefore lack access to anything previously known, being mindless.
4) Burning one down with regeneration, if it did hurt and not just regenerate hit points (positive energy healing or just regeneration of flesh?) varies on the type, obviously. Zombies wouldn't card, nor would skeletons.
Two cents or more, free!
So I'm talking with Dom about how I don't think a birth control amulet would work for Anahita because she's the Champion of Life.
This is when I realize that Lamastu, the demon goddess 'Mother of Monsters' is a failed Champion of Life!
I'll have you know, I went over these details with Lynora prior to adopting the Championship with Anahita... Rest assured, this 'concern' is relevant.
Heh.
I only hope my subtle descriptions here and there have given /some/ insight, and not merely been wasted (I.e. unread or enjoyed) keystrokes.
3) Vampires, and other intelligent undead, I feel, are the original soul/spirit. The lesser undead, (zombies, etc) are mindless and thus without their original spirit/souls, therefore lack access to anything previously known, being mindless.
ghouls are intelligent, yet always CE.
so a LG soul is now damned because he became a ghoul and then did horrible things due to magical compulsion.
3) Vampires, and other intelligent undead, I feel, are the original soul/spirit. The lesser undead, (zombies, etc) are mindless and thus without their original spirit/souls, therefore lack access to anything previously known, being mindless.
ghouls are intelligent, yet always CE.
so a LG soul is now damned because he became a ghoul and then did horrible things due to magical compulsion.
No, see, that's too literal and rigid, IMHO, thinking. They aren't 'damned' but fixed due to their new natures to act in the fashion of their imposed alignment. The changes brought about on their mind/spirit due to the negative energy infused states, that's the shackles or blinders from which they have to be now. And it would take time for someone to change over to their new state in some cases, as their minds adjust to that constant 'hunger' or hate against the living. Lichens, though, tend to walk into thisvlife, eyes wide open. It's detailed in their process of becoming in some cases.
If any judging WERE to occur, this being in the Boneyard only if/when mediation were needed, then their state complicates the process.
You can call them damned, but honestly, any non-militant stick up their ass purist, would /want/ to free the dead cursed person so they could be reset, and find their final resting place.
Becoming undead is a lot like that old cursed belt of sex change, or the helm of alignment change. Your alignment is merely a guide of how you interpret the world, but your actions ultimately determine your final resting place, depending on the individual's belief system.
The Payhfinder setting does an excellent job of keeping the richness of all these various religious and metaphysical "truths" intentionally vague, leaving it open to each player troop to define. Quite a nice write up.
No, see, that's too literal and rigid, IMHO, thinking. They aren't 'damned' but fixed due to their new natures to act in the fashion of their imposed alignment. If any judging WERE to occur, this being in the Boneyard only if/when mediation were needed, then their state complicates the process.You can call them damned, but honestly, any non-militant stick up their ass purist, would /want/ to free the dead cursed person so they could be reset, and find their final resting place.
Becoming undead is a lot like that old cursed belt of sex change, or the helm of alignment change. Your alignment is merely a guide of how you interpret the world, but your actions ultimately determine your final resting place, depending on the individual's belief system.
The Payhfinder setting does an excellent job of keeping the richness of all these various religious and metaphysical "truths" intentionally vague, leaving it open to each player troop to define. Quite a nice write up.
and you will take CE actions.
over and over and over.
oh, and just what i needed. a reminder of that virus thing.
something similar enough to one of my plans to be unavailable...
and something none of my characters can do anything about...
effectively removing me from another important scene.
...
I've got to stop talking. i threw up today, and i think i threw up my pills before they took effect.
in other words i'm in a **** mood today.
so I'm probably going to be off a lot today, as to avoid starting problems.
I mean one that failed so horribly at their goal that they became twisted, horrid, beings.No I meant me not my character, I fell asleep shortly after posting that
...
DB3 what do you mean by failed?
That hurts, it does.
Undead, are by there very existence evil. They were created via Orcus(usually) as a tool to spread evil, chaos and death across the multiverse.
No magical compulsion, you are evil as much as an angel is good by your very nature. The only true exception to this is when a good deity creates a special type of "undead", which retains or gains that god's goodly component to their alignment.
Vampires absolutely retain their souls, its part of how they still have all of their abilities from when they were alive.
Zombies and Skeletons definitely do not have souls, as they are more akin to constructs animated via necromantic magicks and negative energies than they are to actual creatures.
Beyond that, I would say it probably depends on the type of undead. Some definitely do retain a portion of their soul/memories, even if its just of the time around their death. Others likely do not retain much of anything of their former selves, soul or otherwise.
Undead, are by there very existence evil. They were created via Orcus(usually) as a tool to spread evil, chaos and death across the multiverse.
No magical compulsion, you are evil as much as an angel is good by your very nature. The only true exception to this is when a good deity creates a special type of "undead", which retains or gains that god's goodly component to their alignment.
Vampires absolutely retain their souls, its part of how they still have all of their abilities from when they were alive.
Zombies and Skeletons definitely do not have souls, as they are more akin to constructs animated via necromantic magicks and negative energies than they are to actual creatures.
Beyond that, I would say it probably depends on the type of undead. Some definitely do retain a portion of their soul/memories, even if its just of the time around their death. Others likely do not retain much of anything of their former selves, soul or otherwise.
actually, no.
orcus did not make them....they first came into existence when someone (i cant remember her name) ran away from phransma, becoming a deity of pestilence and undead.
also, so if you become a vampire, willfully or not, you're instantly damned. seems fair.
oh, and let's not forget 3.5's arch-lich, a good aligned lich that became undead out of fear of death, and is still good aligned.
(heard about this last one 2nd hand.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
and you will take CE actions.
over and over and over.
Not really. Alignment isn't a straight jacket. They may have compulsions and instincts, but those - like any a human possesses - can be overridden given enough willpower
Spoiler tagging this next part as it contains AP spoilers:
In the Carrion Crown book 5, Ashes at Dawn, there is a LG paladin who is turned into a vampire and then forced to feed for the amusement of their master. His alignment is listed as LE in the stat block, and will attack the party upon first seeing them.
However, since he is wearing Iomedaeic armour, the PCs are given the chance to recognize what this particular vampire used to be. If they subdue him without ending, or appeal to that part of him otherwise, he will cease his attack on the party and beg for their forgiveness. Still LE, but a complicated person. He tries to fight the vampiric hunger, but fears that he cannot. If the PCs cast an Atonement spell on him, he regains his alignment (LG), BUT still retains the vampiric hunger.
In the end, fearful that he will once again succumb to the hunger, the Paladin opts to stand and face the rising sun, and so becomes ash, instead of going back to his LE ways.
Given that example, I think it's very easy to see that alignment isn't a straightjacket.
|
Undead, are by there very existence evil. They were created via Orcus(usually) as a tool to spread evil, chaos and death across the multiverse.
No magical compulsion, you are evil as much as an angel is good by your very nature. The only true exception to this is when a good deity creates a special type of "undead", which retains or gains that god's goodly component to their alignment.
Vampires absolutely retain their souls, its part of how they still have all of their abilities from when they were alive.
Zombies and Skeletons definitely do not have souls, as they are more akin to constructs animated via necromantic magicks and negative energies than they are to actual creatures.
Beyond that, I would say it probably depends on the type of undead. Some definitely do retain a portion of their soul/memories, even if its just of the time around their death. Others likely do not retain much of anything of their former selves, soul or otherwise.
actually, no.
orcus did not make them....
they first came into existence when someone (i cant remember her name) ran away from phransma, becoming a deity of pestilence and undead.also, so if you become a vampire, willfully or not, you're instantly damned. seems fair.
different panthieon/ planet =different origin story
and you will take CE actions.
over and over and over.Not really. Alignment isn't a straight jacket. They may have compulsions and instincts, but those - like any a human possesses - can be overridden given enough willpower
Spoiler tagging this next part as it contains AP spoilers:
** spoiler omitted **
Given that example, I think it's very easy to see that alignment isn't a straightjacket.
yes, i suppose, but here's the thing-
most don't get a shot at atonement.and ghouls are creatures that are cannibalistic and eat anything sentient they see.
I prefer the Buffy style: Undead have the wrappings of what they once were, and might act a lot like an evil version of the original human, but they are in reality completely different entities. "You're not looking at your friend, you're looking at the thing that killed him."
different panthieon/ planet =different origin storyUndead, are by there very existence evil. They were created via Orcus(usually) as a tool to spread evil, chaos and death across the multiverse.
No magical compulsion, you are evil as much as an angel is good by your very nature. The only true exception to this is when a good deity creates a special type of "undead", which retains or gains that god's goodly component to their alignment.
Vampires absolutely retain their souls, its part of how they still have all of their abilities from when they were alive.
Zombies and Skeletons definitely do not have souls, as they are more akin to constructs animated via necromantic magicks and negative energies than they are to actual creatures.
Beyond that, I would say it probably depends on the type of undead. Some definitely do retain a portion of their soul/memories, even if its just of the time around their death. Others likely do not retain much of anything of their former selves, soul or otherwise.
actually, no.
orcus did not make them....
they first came into existence when someone (i cant remember her name) ran away from phransma, becoming a deity of pestilence and undead.also, so if you become a vampire, willfully or not, you're instantly damned. seems fair.
both are on the some planet. both are well known.
in other words, i don't think either was the case.they are just another creation of mad arcane casters, that evil gods found useful.
I prefer the Buffy style: Undead have the wrappings of what they once were, and might act a lot like an evil version of the original human, but they are in reality completely different entities. "You're not looking at your friend, you're looking at the thing that killed him."
this is my opinion.
Another exception to the "always evil" thing undead created by a juju oracle are neutral
yes.
because they channel wandering souls into the body, implying that that doesn't normally happen.|
|
Another exception to the "always evil" thing undead created by a juju oracle are neutralyes.
because they channel wandering souls into the body, implying that that doesn't normally happen.
yes and death mages do this too
But those wandering spirits weren't all originally neutral, and the intelegant ones like juju zombies and skeletal champions retain class levels of the body which implies that the spirit that used to be in the body is the one that is currently there, whether the spirit was CG or LE
Note the usually in () Ice. You might be right regarding Golarion lore, as I am pretty sure Urgathoa was the first undead in that setting.
Many others however, lay undead creation to Orcus. Trust me on this one. I have a 214th level necromancer deity in a RL game, and I have studied Undead and Undeath in depth. You'll note that while he does exist in The Great Beyond, Orcus is not the primary Demon Lord of Undead, as he was in D&D.
Regarding vampires, damnation and the fairness therein, Um. Yea. Of course its unfair, we're evil after all. Never, in any form of myth that I have encountered, has evil been portrayed as fair and playing by the rules.
Was it fair for Loki to guide the hand of the guy who slew Baldur? Was it fair for Lucifer to take the guise of a serpent and taunt Eve? Was it fair for Gaea to make the Gigantes invulnerable to harm unless it was done via a mortal?
Another exception to the "always evil" thing undead created by a juju oracle are neutralyes.
because they channel wandering souls into the body, implying that that doesn't normally happen.yes and death mages do this too
But those wandering spirits weren't all originally neutral, and the intelegant ones like juju zombies and skeletal champions retain class levels of the body which implies that the spirit that used to be in the body is the one that is currently there, whether the spirit was CG or LE
ok....
this makes no sense. at all.also, the soul doesn't retain class levels when it dies. it becomes a cr 1 petitioner,weather it was lv over 9000 or 1, it doesn't matter.
so the soul has nothing to do with class levels.
Note the usually in () Ice. You might be right regarding Golarion lore, as I am pretty sure Urgathoa was the first undead in that setting.
Many others however, lay undead creation to Orcus. Trust me on this one. I have a 214th level necromancer deity in a RL game, and I have studied Undead and Undeath in depth. You'll note that while he does exist in The Great Beyond, Orcus is not the primary Demon Lord of Undead, as he was in D&D.
Regarding vampires, damnation and the fairness therein, Um. Yea. Of course its unfair, we're evil after all. Never, in any form of myth that I have encountered, has evil been portrayed as fair and playing by the rules.
Was it fair for Loki to guide the hand of the guy who slew Baldur? Was it fair for Lucifer to take the guise of a serpent and taunt Eve? Was it fair for Gaea to make the Gigantes invulnerable to harm unless it was done via a mortal?
ok. so you can undermine the will of one of the most powerful dieites in the setting (pharansma) effortlessly just by killing them as a vampire.
makes perfect sense.(hellfire ray also pisses me off. somehow, mortal magic does pharansma's job for her? WTF?)
and you will take CE actions.
over and over and over.Not really. Alignment isn't a straight jacket. They may have compulsions and instincts, but those - like any a human possesses - can be overridden given enough willpower
Spoiler tagging this next part as it contains AP spoilers:
** spoiler omitted **
Given that example, I think it's very easy to see that alignment isn't a straightjacket.
See?
This is my point. NPCs who are just "fodder"? Sure, play their alignment, that's ezmode. For any NPC with depth and a story behind them, doing so is a disservice to the potential story/content.
If you want to live in a black/light world, where everything is checked against some list, by all means be a robot in your creative hobby (or life).
For any PC, the "heroes" of the tale, it should never be automatic, unless failed Saves or something, and always resisted. When you embrace the evil and extole /in/ in, and remember that evil, per my understanding of Pathfinder is more about ease of commiting murder/foul deeds, then you truly are a monster in both body and spirit as an undead.
See? Choice and good story telling. Not just rigid checklists. That's must suggeston. Makes for richer game playing.
Hellfire Ray is not Pathfinder Core icehawk. Third party and stuff.
And no... Pharasma's still the one who gets to choose. Just cause someone died as an evil person doesn't mean their damned. They may have been a good person earlier in life.
Wrong Ice.
When you cast Reincarnate you are taking the dead soul and placing in a different body, often not even of the same race the dead belonged to.
If your soul has no "memory" of its class levels, why does reincarnate state you keep them, even though your in an entirely new body?
Hellfire Ray is not Pathfinder Core icehawk. Third party and stuff.
And no... Pharasma's still the one who gets to choose. Just cause someone died as an evil person doesn't mean their damned. They may have been a good person earlier in life.
there is another hellfire spell that is core. it deos the same thing.
cant remeber it's name off the top of my head, but it acts as divine strike+ damnation.
Hellfire Ray is not Pathfinder Core icehawk. Third party and stuff.
And no... Pharasma's still the one who gets to choose. Just cause someone died as an evil person doesn't mean their damned. They may have been a good person earlier in life.
This is why I wrote earlier about a source of her disdain for undead. Mucks things up!
Wrong Ice.
When you cast Reincarnate you are taking the dead soul and placing in a different body, often not even of the same race the dead belonged to.
If your soul has no "memory" of its class levels, why does reincarnate state you keep them, even though your in an entirely new body?
then explain why powerful wizards can't just planeshift out of the afterlife.
seirously, the amount of inconsistencies are ridiculous.
This is why I wrote earlier about a source of her disdain for undead. Mucks things up!Hellfire Ray is not Pathfinder Core icehawk. Third party and stuff.
And no... Pharasma's still the one who gets to choose. Just cause someone died as an evil person doesn't mean their damned. They may have been a good person earlier in life.
so...
somehow, a disease is more powerful then a god.
Wrong Ice.
When you cast Reincarnate you are taking the dead soul and placing in a different body, often not even of the same race the dead belonged to.
If your soul has no "memory" of its class levels, why does reincarnate state you keep them, even though your in an entirely new body?
that, and it's divine intervention...
you know, as a divine only spell.
Regarding Vampires, the afterlife and Pharasma judging them when they meet Final Death:
As an incredibly powerful deity, Pharasma obviously knows everything about the vampire's life, from birth to death, transformation into a vampire and it dying for good. As well as everything it did in between.
If a particular vampire was a pious or just generally good person before it was Embraced, then was forcibly turned, and then did some evil stuff and eventually died, do you not think Pharasma would take that into account?
Why would she just say "Well, you were forced to do bad stuff, because some vamp bite you, and made you into an evil creature, so no happy afterlife for you, to the Abyss you go!"??
actually...
you know what, i dont care anymore.
this is not, and will not ever be, relevant in this setting.
so i'm done.
Ice, seriously, you have three people suggesting there are other approaches to this, yet you insist on arguing your point of view as being the 'right' one.
While I commend your zeal, I'd like to point out that you are effectively ignoring three other human beings attempting to share an alternate view on a creative game.
Please ease up, take a moment to re-read what we've (for the most part politely) shared, in an attempt to give another plausible point of view.
If the crux of this conversation is about alignment, which I'm guessing is key here, regardless of your physical and spiritual state, re-read the Payhfinder write up on it. It is /not/ a straight jacket. It is not a rigid system to determine actions or being. It is merely a guide/system, much like our own real world psychology and some medicine is, to define how someone might act.
That's all I'm attempting to impart here, and as always, story (I.e. fun) can always trump rules. Always.
Post is coming Dami, sorry for the delay this morning.
correction.
hellfire ray is not 3rd party.
pazio made it, it is just not core.
anyway... now im done.
Regarding Vampires, the afterlife and Pharasma judging them when they meet Final Death:
As an incredibly powerful deity, Pharasma obviously knows everything about the vampire's life, from birth to death, transformation into a vampire and it dying for good. As well as everything it did in between.
If a particular vampire was a pious or just generally good person before it was Embraced, then was forcibly turned, and then did some evil stuff and eventually died, do you not think Pharasma would take that into account?
Why would she just say "Well, you were forced to do bad stuff, because some vamp bite you, and made you into an evil creature, so no happy afterlife for you, to the Abyss you go!"??
Exactly my point. Might add to complications she'd rather avoid. Waste of energy.
correction.
hellfire ray is not 3rd party.
pazio made it, it is just not core.anyway... now im done.
Seriously, stop trying to be right all the time, we have Foul for that!
Note: Mostly humor intended.
correction.
hellfire ray is not 3rd party.
pazio made it, it is just not core.
Splat books (especially like the one that spell is from) are there to provide flavour and options, and do not always make sense in some contexts - especially since Pathfinder is not designed exclusively for Golarion, and that there are something like 20-30+ writers for Paizo at least.
Further... I think it's completely reasonable that a spell could by-pass a Mortal's chance at being fairly judged, especially a spell with the Evil descriptor. Seems like an evil thing to do - force damnation on someone. Depending on how often you use it, Pharasma may even get pissed off at you and send a reaper to kill you. Good story-telling that. :)
That's all I'm attempting to impart here, and as always, story (I.e. fun) can always trump rules. Always.
i wish i felt like this.
but then again, rules are my life.do everything by the book, all the time.
if making something new, stat it out in full.
to me, /everything/ is a straitjacket.
i've tired thematic stuff... and can never trust my opponent to depressant stats properly.
i try and loosen up, but it's really hard.
anyway, I'm off. I've got to go to an appointment.
Unless you all want an in depth discussion of the multiverse, take it from me that while Hellfire Ray does in fact damn a soul to Hell, its not nearly as bad as you would think, and leave it at that.
correction.
hellfire ray is not 3rd party.
pazio made it, it is just not core.Splat books (especially like the one that spell is from) are there to provide flavour and options, and do not always make sense in some contexts - especially since Pathfinder is not designed exclusively for Golarion, and that there are something like 20-30+ writers for Paizo at least.
Further... I think it's completely reasonable that a spell could by-pass a Mortal's chance at being fairly judged, especially a spell with the Evil descriptor. Seems like an evil thing to do - force damnation on someone. Depending on how often you use it, Pharasma may even get pissed off at you and send a reaper to kill you. Good story-telling that. :)
Or as MG says ( which I agree with ) Pharasma would just ignore a puny mortals spell effects /if/ she were involved.
:D
Hee hee. Nasty viri!
Lurch, I'll wait for a bit to respond to that, as we actually having gotten /to/ lunch yet, let alone through it.
Yeah what hermes said... Mel is at least an hour or more till lunch starts.
Lang same boat..
Another exception to the "always evil" thing undead created by a juju oracle are neutralThis is not true. Paizo's has stated that that ability is wrong, and any undead created by the juju oracle, no matter what the oracle's alignment, are evil.
Undead are animated by "evil" energies, period. Negative energy is inherently evil, is my understanding.