Of Kings and Commoners - Kingmaker AP

Game Master RPGGGM

Him becoming a noble is difficult, BUT he definitely has a hard time with the idea of a political marriage with Brevoy. He knows they will use it and he will not do it without very stringent measures, most likely consisting of an army, spies, magical defences and monitoring a Brevic influences in the kingdom.

First magical defense: Serena can be your wing-person using Detect Evil on all of your dates.

But seriously, if you do not want Zokon to do this, then I think we just bring back King Numalar NPC or ditch that part of the game.

If you do want to do it and have Zokon evolve... Durgan will point out that living well is the best revenge. And he'll be living like a king. Is his mother still alive? Could give her a title as well. Queen Mother Talasia.

Edit: also, maybe make Illthir the Chief Diplomat instead of Serena. The whole Sarenrae-Taldor problem.

Well, I joined AFTER game start, and Alias first post in this game was more than 4 years ago.
For Book 1. I came in with reasons for the association I choose, and don't want to pay a penalty for that now.
Simply said: As a player, after more than 4 years, and hoping for plenty more, I don't want to be relegated to a subservient role on the sideline.
It's not the lower-profile position itself that is offending, it is that such a position is needed because her voice is not heared, not relevant.
That cannnot be counteracted by party politics. If we get as close to Brevoy as you wish, then she will be disregarded on the basis that she is a female commoner, and not even married to someone of station.
Aligning closely and intermingling with them WILL enforce their value systems on us.
So yeah, in that instance, I as a player do have a problem with not being given a voice, or at best being tolerated in any decisions to be made.
I am invested in this game, and have been for many years now, and I want to shape the world that is becoming.

And that is not something easily handwaived or passed over, without being picky about what realities you want to enforce and which ones not. As in, the marriage must be left open and the alignment with Brevoy must be close-knit, but we can totally disregard customs and place some subservient foreign female on the council advising the king.

At the same time, I had plans for her. There's plot point, ideas, future aspects of her that I worked out with RPGGGM, relevant stuff in the game world. I know he would be fine with swapping out for someone else. The point is, again, that I don't WANT to. I want to continue Alia's story, as long as it lasts, because the character grew dear to me.
While such would be mechanically viable, I don't WANT to swap to a Brevoyan Sorceress and put Alia on the sideline.

But right now, the most probable option available is to say "screw it all", drop the charter, head off into the Narlmarches and just be Mayor of "Elftown".

At least that way she can do her own thing, rather than hope that some intermediate role has time for an appointment where she can offer her thoughts on a topic that may be presented to the ruler later.
(Because as said, while other people, with an "in" in Brevoy, may be acceptable even with a lower station, she would most certainly not be welcome on a Brevoyan-Style council with a low role and low social worth.) And that irks me as a player, as I feel I'm getting punished for following up on something decided years ago, because of altered circumstances.

Plus the other option I see is equally disruptive. Getting some other noble house from Brevoy to arrange a fake marriage. Working for them, providing intelligence and furthering their interests, for them to provide some gay son as a political tie that would never touch me.
(Bonus points if the family that takes me up on that is actually Zokons, and some relative of his starts hanging around at the capital - regardless of Zokons actual position.)

As said before, it is a complicated issue, because it touches on both player and character-interests.
What if King Numalar the NPC is brought in? Do we still need a diplomatic marriage option for Zokon if he's the Enforcer/Assassin?

It is not me making up these facts:
The new charter is from Brevoy.
If you want to be on it, you need some connection to Brevoy.
Alia, Serena, and Victoria are in particular less trusted due to religious affiliation or national origin.
PCs who are in a subservient role (or mayor of a tiny town) do not need an "in" with Brevoy.
Zokon or Durgan would be barely acceptable as a Ruler but would need to strengthen their connections to Brevoy over time (or to another country if we really want to take a big gamble, but I'd rather get our realm established first).

This is the situation as best as I can understand it. Not as I wish it to be. If I have gravely misinterpreted anything the GM has said, I am happy to be corrected.

Given the situation - the party trusts Alia, but Brevoy does not - I am sure you could find a role for her that has long-term influence and power (especially considering Elven lifespans) that is subtle enough to not upset our patrons.

Zokon's gay brother is an interesting idea. They could officially be there to keep an eye on the bastard and on the evil foreigner, but really be hoping for scraps from Zokon's table. As his family sees his star rising and thinks they made a mistake treating him the way they did.

I am not saying you are making up facts.
I am saying your interpretation is not an universal truth.

Say Zokon were among those dropped from the game and Durgan never joined up. Would the Game end right there? No suitable candidates, thanks for trying, good luck next time!?

The first replacement characters WERE given charters as well, but as it stands, none of us save Zokon were even on the original mission given by Brevoy. We each had our individual reasons to be present in the Stolen Lands - because we were omitted from that charter by GM decision(because going back and fetching new charter-holders every couple in-game-weeks would have been ridiculous). Now punishing us for having reasons to be here that are NOT based on Brevoys interests seems counter-intuitive.

The new charter does give a lot of freedom. Zokon and Scarlet could accept it alone, then decide that their choosen government form is a Theocracy with Akate Thrice-Damned as God-Emporer.
Specifically: "The nature and laws of rule are theirs to define".
Based on that, someone could be ruler and still call people to his council that are NOT charter-holders.
Same as with the NPC's, who will not necessarily be automatically included in the charter.
Only if we align too closely with Brevoy to moot that point and duplicate their system will this be an issue.
Heck, we wouldn't even have to have a hereditary system and could make a rotary government, or an elective monarchy. Zokon could form a Harem and rule Polygamy is acceptable, then hand-pick heirs.

That said, Rule 1 of the game is to have fun. Working things out so that those characters interested get to have a role or an in is fun.
Forcing them to be sidelined or replaced with characters that essentially have the same outlook and vision as Durgan is not fun.(not saying that is what you want, but by your strict reading, it would seem the most sensible option because if we need to perpetually strenghten our bonds, it will not be expected only of those with a pre-existing connection. Everybody else will be expected to intermarry and bind themselves to Brevoy as well.)

So instead of limiting our options based on what COULD be needed, we should expand them based on what is fun. Hey, you want to intermarry and have them over for a tea-party every weekend, just take the dukedom next to the border.
I have faith in the GM that he will work things out with us there. It's not like we're looking to dodge responsibilities or antagonize our sponsor.
But I heavily doubt the intent behind the new charter is to force all player characters to become uniform married thralls in service to the throne - or be replaced by such...and while you are at it, make sure to play a male, because females role in the society is to produce babies and heirs.

I am not saying you are making up facts.

I am saying your interpretation is not an universal truth.

I agree with that.

Forcing them to be sidelined or replaced with characters that essentially have the same outlook and vision as Durgan is not fun.

I agree. I do not want that either.

(not saying that is what you want, but by your strict reading, it would seem the most sensible option because if we need to perpetually strenghten our bonds, it will not be expected only of those with a pre-existing connection. Everybody else will be expected to intermarry and bind themselves to Brevoy as well.)

That is not a 'strict reading' of what I said or what I believe the GM has said. It is not a remotely accurate characterization of my position.

Those that do not want to rule an area (either as Ruler or as a noble within that kingdom) do not need to bind themselves to Brevoy. You can have a job (Marshal, Warden, Councilor, whatever) without having lands to inherit, and then most of Brevoy really wouldn't care who you marry. It's only if you have lands that they care.

The new charter does give a lot of freedom. Zokon and Scarlet could accept it alone, then decide that their choosen government form is a Theocracy with Akate Thrice-Damned as God-Emporer.

Specifically: "The nature and laws of rule are theirs to define".

Yes, that's what the Charter says. The GM is being very clear that Brevoy expects a degree of fealty that go beyond the words of the charter. Zokon and Scarlet do that, and the nobles of Brevoy react accordingly, and we face the consequences.

I want you to have fun too.

Hmm.. Zokon could potentially try an in game way of strengthening his Brevic ties.

He could talk with his father in an effort to more closely aligned to the family and thus Brevoy.

I'm actually warming to the idea of the marriage with Alia, I like the idea of the Kyonin element...

Maybe with Durgan as another high role in the government it would be permissable, he would be keeping the Brevic interests in mind.

Zokon family could be more closely involved thus basically guaranteeing that theBrevic influence could not be supplanted by Kyonin influence, but it would still be allowed and thus an element in the game.

If Zokon were to be legitimized by his father and re-establish his family ties, then his status would not be quite so tenuous.

And taking a "foreign" bride might then not be the deal-breaker for Brevoy's tolerance and support.

Durgan as Duke/Treasurer, working on strengthening his own connections to the nobility, could help.

If that is a possibility, it would go a long way towards alleviating my concerns.

Alia of the Blade wrote:

I am not saying you are making up facts.

I am saying your interpretation is not an universal truth.

I agree with that.

So on which of these points do you think I am incorrectly interpreting what the GM has said?
- The new charter is from Brevoy.
- If you want to be on it, you need some connection to Brevoy.
- Alia, Serena, and Victoria are in particular less trusted due to religious affiliation or national origin.
- PCs who are in a subservient role (or mayor of a tiny town) do not need an "in" with Brevoy.
- Zokon or Durgan would be barely acceptable as a Ruler but would need to strengthen their connections to Brevoy over time.
Do you want me to link to the pertinent posts?

It is late, and I need to go to work early tomorrow.

But fine, I specifically contest your last 2 statements:
1: That everybody that wants to do more than a subservient voice in the off needs to bond their life to eternal Brevoyan service.
That is against the interests of having fun: Not every character is equally suited to that. Some by design. Omitting them from a part of the game because they don't bend over backwards to make sure they fulfill the qualifications to the point when both the player is willing to work something out and the character is willing to cooperate is overkill.

My reading would be that you can't go ask the king of Mivon for sponsorship because you end up right on the border. You have to stick with Brevoy, and have a reason to do so. Details can be worked out but everybody gets to play that wants.

2.: Zokon and Durgan would be barely acceptable based on their backgrounds: Hence my scenario above: What if the two of you are not with us? Would we skip things and default to a NPC Rulership? Omitting the whole part of the game because the guy originally supposed to be king didn't show up to the table?

My reading would be that with people available that DO have connections to their nobility, they are by FAR preferable for the nobles. That does not mean everybody else is automatically disqualified in comparison. It's just a harder sell and will result in them keeping a closer eye on what is being done with their support.

As said, I'm with you on the facts, I am just convinced the scenario would also need to work out with a different starting situation - and possibly that the strict bonding is more optional as long as we are doing a great job.
If Brevoy has no reason to question us, and there is news of us overcoming problems and building up successfully, upping economy and bringing civilization and stability to these lands, they will have no reason to meddle or push us. That is, I believe we will have quite some freedom as long as our performance is acceptable to them - and only if we fail to achieve what they expect of us will they come knocking and try to bind us closer to make sure we keep in line.

EDIT: Your last two posts happened while I was writing: That would be an awesome way to handle the situation. And I am pretty certain Zokons father would reconcile with his son considering the potential political impact it would have.

But fine, I specifically contest your last 2 statements:

1: That everybody that wants to do more than a subservient voice in the off needs to bond their life to eternal Brevoyan service.

That is not what I said. "eternal Brevoyan service"? Not at all. Please stop mischaracterizing my position. It is not remotely true in the annals of history that political bonds (such as a marriage) equal eternal service to a realm.

We will have some familial ties to Brevoy. That is not servitude. And our loyalty could change if they do not treat us fairly.

I was referring to the need of close alignment with them, intermarrying with them politically, bearing heirs for them and raising them - as a way to get an acceptable long-term "in" to actually do something beyond "a subservient role (or mayor of a tiny town)"

That is not something you do, then decide to pack up and go home. That is essentially a permanent bond - "eternal Brevoyan service" might be overstating it, but considering the role of woman in their society service seems quite fitting.

My intent was far from mischaracterizing your position. Merely put emphasis on my position that the bond required is by far less invasive to player freedom.
The servitude was specifically called up because as a female character, one would be seen differently in Brevoy. It is not an equal opportunity kingdom.
And yeah, Loyalty is fluid. If we are treated fairly, Alia may become a fan and shift her Loyalty to them. Who knows?

But as said in my edit, I think we are on a good way to resolve this in a way that works for everybody(less other people speak up and voice a veto).
It was not my intent to antagonize you with the way I worded it, but I felt a need to use more expressive language to make clear it was interpretations, not written facts that we are dealing with here.

I am also unsure about your preferred role in kingdom decision-making, given how you talk about subservient positions.

We are all going to be subservient to Zokon in terms of the kingdom administration. I am fine with that. It sounded like it bothered you.

Not at all. Now you misinterpret/characterize me. I said before it was not the role, but the fact that only a minor role that needs no place in the council would be an option. No Lands, no independent decisions...i even asked If the marriage would be an option If zokon was Assassin instead. I want the option to run my region of the kingdom. That was the issue - a desire to take an active part in kingdom-building, running a locale on my own - which as you said needs participation on the charter. Alias level 5 Feat is Dynasty Founder - locked in since years. Not a new ambition, there. My loyalty to Zokon/the Party should be beyond question.

Quotes:
Simply said: As a player, after more than 4 years, and hoping for plenty more, I don't want to be relegated to a subservient role on the sideline.
It's not the lower-profile position itself that is offending, it is that such a position is needed because her voice is not heared, not relevant. - as per the explanation, the point being sidelined and put as far away from the actual decisionmaking as possible without making her an NPC. As per my interpretation: A foreign woman Marshal would not be allowed to speak on the council(Report to the General, they can tell the Ruler). A Brevoyan man Marshal would be. Basically the position would be used to shunt her into a siding because she is barely tolerable to Brevoyan nobles without a proper reason to be there. I may be wrong but that was my interpretation.
Do we still need a diplomatic marriage option for Zokon if he's the Enforcer/Assassin? - he would still have been a great match for the connection he provides.
in the same post.

We did talk about possible positions already quite some time before you joined, if memory serves. I think there were 2 or 3 that seemed good fits for Alia.
The consort or possibly someday co-ruler idea was simply because it would offer the most mechanical benefit eventually and seem to make the most sense(and because there are plenty NPC's to fill the other vacant spots so it would be an "extra role" to influence things).

Ah. I tried to convey that "subtle" did not mean "powerless". In any event we hopefully have a viable solution.

Aye, hopefully we do.

I did fail to pick up on the fact that you actually do want to have some land and title - my apologies. While I don't share your view that land/title is a prerequisite for independent decisions (that's an area where I think Zokon can delegate authority as he sees fit with little interference), there is also the fact that you see land/title as valuable in its own right for Dynasty Founder.

I don't imagine an Alia-Numalar marriage would have been a tranquil one.

Does Durgan know the process for legitimizing bastards, and who has the authority to do so?
Profession (Lawyer): 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (14) + 6 = 20

Scarlet's fine with being general.

I don't imagine an Alia-Numalar marriage would have been a tranquil one.

It would not have come to that. There's always the option of ritual suicide.

Durgan Far-Walker wrote:

I don't imagine an Alia-Numalar marriage would have been a tranquil one.

It would not have come to that. There's always the option of ritual suicide.

Death is not an escape. Merely a transition.

ummm, I'm happy with magister thanks.

I'll admit I kinda just glanced over the last bits of Alia's and Durgan's discussion - but it looked important so I will endeavor to take another look. Later. Sorry if my thoughts doesn't accurately represent what either of you said/believes.

Anyhow! Some jumbled notes bellow.

---

Illthir has 3600 gold worth of things plus one [[Fishy Bardiche]] from a revenant that she still isn't quite sure what it is worth.

Have there been/is there any further information about it that I should know of?

---

Illthir has Brevoy blood! Only on her fathers side and it's filthy commoner blood, but it might be something!

---

It was kinda funny seeing a spoiler titled "Alia's worth" or something along the lines of that in the middle of the very romantic marriage proposal :P

---

Illthir isn't that marriageable at the moment. Maybe another time - or with some plotting. Mainly because there seems to be a million other things to take care of :P

---

Haven't read the last 27 gameplay posts or so. Will do so. And re-read the end-of-the-kobolds again I think.

---

If this is such an issue, why can't Zokon marry both Alia and Durgan? That way he'll get both perks ... right...? :P

---

No but seriously. We don't need iron clad ties anywhere. If our leader is strong and acceptable he can just make more nobles by waiving his sword around (not an innuendo - that'll probably take too long!). Yeah sure they'll be inferior low grade nobles. But we'll be an inferior low grade country for a while anyhow so who cares?

And if they *do* care and there *is* consequences to not marrying everything or summoning a herd of elves or whatever I'm sure we can do some more sword waiving around and solve that yeah? Yeah.

---

I do find kingdom building to be quite fun. I'd like to play along with that.

The main decision I would see for Illthir (and I don't think it has to be made now) is whether or not she wants to be a noble with lands in this new kingdom.

Or she could just be Chief Diplomat or General or Councilor or whatever without a noble title. Or I suppose a noble title without lands?

But if Illthir does have lands and a title, she'll have suitors and be expected to marry eventually. Which can have benefits in giving us allies inside Brevoy's noble houses, should some factions in Brevoy decide to mess with us (tariffs, breaking treaties, sabotage, etc.). Would be good to have allies inside our larger 'partner' to the north.

Durgan now most definitely wants to be a noble with lands and forge connections to Brevoy's nobility. Didn't really care about that earlier in the game, but now I think it necessary.

Serena and Scarlet have said they are not marrying, and Victoria provokes the same distrust among Brevoy folk that Alia and Serena do. Illthir is probably the best remaining match in the party, if there is some suitable candidate down the road.

Yes but expected or it would be nice if she did is different to, she makes the choice of what she wants to do.

All of us maybe expected to do stuff... but we can choose to do whatever.. and I suspect GGGM is ringing his hands in anticipation of tangenting that story where it needs to go.

Lets go with the Zokon and Durgan for Brevoy plan, Illthir is Brevoy aligned as well... maybe? All good Brevoy can deal with it..

That's true enough. And Illthir isn't going to have people beating down her door to take her hand in marriage until the Stolen Lands are a better place to live.

What takes a year in-game could take us ten years of real time.

As we seem to be drawing near a line where civil discourse is in danger of breaking let me remind everyone that the goal is to have fun playing about in a fantasy world, and that typed text is has little in the way of inflection.

Let me also point out an important and accurate point:

No but seriously. We don't need iron clad ties anywhere. If our leader is strong and acceptable he can just make more nobles by waiving his sword around (not an innuendo - that'll probably take too long!). Yeah sure they'll be inferior low grade nobles. But we'll be an inferior low grade country for a while anyhow so who cares?

At this point this is all you really need (an acceptable overlord/figurehead). Remember that in time all of this can change.

KINGDOM ROLES (thusfar)
So are we going with something like (correct me if I missed you, because I probably did today--short on time. ;)):

High Muckety-Muck Zokon (Ruler of [Insert Kingdom Name Here])
Sorceress Supreme Victoria (Magister)
Lord of the Blings Durgan (Treasurer)
Assortment of NPCs for other positions.

Did anyone else have a role they wish their PC to fill or want to make an NPC recommendation?

Let me clarify that Serena recognizes that building a kingdom in her name would be troublesome, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't want to do so. She is out to challenge the concept that only Brevoyan nobles (and males, at that) can rule. She holds to the letter of the charter, not the charter as the nobility of Brevoy interprets it.

Well, my proposal for Illthir was Councilor.

If she does fill that position, it would probably be sensible for Zokon to raise her to nobility.

Second-rate Pizzaland nobility, but she DOES have Brevoy Blood(in the male line, the only one that truly matters to them) and is suddenly a noble(of sorts).
That allows her to take part in adminstrating lands and kingdom building.

Certainly she will be expected to eventually marry and have heirs, but a.: it is probably understandable that both us and potential suitors wait to see how this whole "new kingdom" stuff works out before going there, and secondly: It may well be understandable that she wants to wait: If we grow larger and more powerful economically and militarily, she may be a significantly better "match" than now, in the early days of our fledgling nation.
So it makes sense to not choose the first suitor to come knocking and take a while to make that decision(certainly a couple years at least).

By then, we may also be in a different political situation, and marrying someone else MAY be more relevant.
(Not trying to sabotage binding to Brevoy, but as we grow larger, we WILL have other neighbours, and political marriages to them may also help stabilize the region or keep peace...that could very much be in Brevoys interest, even)

My 2 cents(and we seem to be pretty much on the same page with at least a couple of those views.)

Edit@Kingdom Roles:
Scarlet mentioned she would be fine being General, and was nominated twice. I think we can do a preliminary lock-in of the role.
Serena also pointed out she would be willing to do a number of roles except certain ones - not excluding Grand Diplomat(and she would be a shining example, with Paladinous virtue).

That leaves these roles:

Councilor: 2 nominations Illthir Winlowe, 1 nomination Svetlana(whereever she may be)
Grand Diplomat: 2 nominations Serena Mistcastle, 1 nomination Illthir Winlowe
High Priest: 3 nominations Shepherd Jhod Kavken (another preliminary lock-in unless someone speaks up desiring the role)
Marshal: ??? no current nominations(previous included ???, Durgan and Alia)
Royal Enforcer: 2 nominations Akiros Ismort(again, unless someone wants the role, we may soft-lock it)
Spymaster: 3 nominations Posh(&Esme)
Warden: 3 nominations Kesten Garess(another soft-lock?)

With the so-far uncontested NPC-Positions, it would look like this:

Ruler: Kaiser Zokon Santyev (Cha=>Choose)
Consort: Nominee Alia Santyev(Cha=>Choose)
Councilor: Nominee Illthir Winlowe (Cha or Wis to Loyalty)
General: Scarlet Scarab (Cha or Str to Stability)
Grand Diplomat: Serena Mistcastle (Cha or Int to Stability)
High Priest: Shepherd Jhod Kavken (Cha or Wis to Stability)
Magister: Victoria Velasco (Cha or Int to Economy)
Marshal: ??? Maybe Tamris would be willing to do this if we can guarantee the safety of the Dappled wolf population in return?
Royal Enforcer: Akiros Ismort (Dex or Str to Loyalty)
Spymaster: Nominee Poshment Underhill & Esme, Travelling Player (Dex or Int=>Choose)
Treasurer: Durgan, Duke of Sahnel (Int or Wis => Economy)
Warden: Kesten Garess (Con or Str => Loyalty)

Illthir, Serena and Posh should probably speak up and state their opinion on the listing.

EDIT-EDIT: Neither did I want to exclude Scarlet.
Victoria spoke up and said she was fine being Magister so I locked her in. Of course everybody is welcome to voice their opinions - but those 3 did not state a personal preference for a job yet, nor specifically accept a nomination.(unlike Scarlet and Victoria, who both stated their suggested role was acceptable to them)

I agree with almost everything Alia says above. (Make a note of that!)

Except I think Illthir would be our best option for Grand Diplomat, the 'face' of the realm in most negotiations. Serena could have problems with Taldor or Taldor-affiliated countries. Worship of Sarenrae is banned in Taldor. And paladins in general make lots of other countries nervous. I nominate Serena for Warden or Councilor.

Edit: I am sure you did not mean to exclude Victoria from offering her opinion on the positions.

@Taldor:

I based my suggestion based on the job descriptions:

The Councilor acts as a liaison between the citizenry and the other kingdom leaders, parsing requests from the commonwealth and presenting the leaders’ proclamations to the people in understandable ways. It is the Councilor’s responsibility to make sure the Ruler is making decisions that benefit the kingdom’s communities and its citizens.

I think Illthir is the more "down to earth" one, travelling, mercenarying, performing and writing music.

The Grand Diplomat is in charge of the kingdom’s foreign policy—how it interacts with other kingdoms and similar political organizations such as tribes of intelligent monsters. The Grand Diplomat is the head of all of the kingdom’s diplomats, envoys, and ambassadors.

Here, I think the designation comes in as helpful. Paladins granted powers ARE bound by a code. That gives them an implied trustworthyness that could be valuable.

Those are, of course, just my personal views and opinions, but I figured it may help understand how I decided on these nominations.
Ultimately, however, it would be great to know if either of the two in questions has a preferred occupation. The situation could quite easily resolve itself based on that.

That is true. But Sarenrae followers are seen as the enemy not just in Taldor, but in countries with Taldan roots, and that includes Brevoy as the GM has stated.

Councilor seems a lower-profile position (mingling with commoners).

Warden is a good choice - keeping Zokon safe.

My nominations were more based on who would provoke the least outrage at the start, while we are trying to get established. It is possible to change jobs later.

Perhaps we can get the advice of a friendly NPC on this.

Agreed that Illthir's Diplomacy isn't great at the moment, though the way Versatile Performance works she really wouldn't want to put any ranks into it if she plans to take it at 6th.

Her Sense Motive is outstanding, and that is essential for a Grand Diplomat. And Bluff can also be necessary in that role... actually, I really rather would have a Grand Diplomat who can Bluff when necessary, now that I think about it.

Illthir, I see you have ranks in Perform (Wind), and have notes that you will take future Versatile Performances, is that the one you would take at 6th? In which case Illthir would jump instantly from +4 Diplomacy to +13.

Well, once again, how about we let the actual players chime in?

We both presented our reasons, both flavor-wise and mechanical, but it's hardly our decision to make.

Because lots of these aspects can go both ways(Having a grand diplomat known to be a great bluffer/poker player could just as well backfire on us when foreign nations don't trust us to stand by what has been agreed in negotiations, simply because they don't know if our envoy was trustworthy - once again I do understand the notion and it has merit, but personally I would prefer honorable integrity and trustworthyness for our outward representative.(But then, I'm from Europe which may bleed in on that preference. We like our foreign ministers to be like that, preferably with a stick up their ass.) While several other nations prefer a foreign policy of saying one thing and doing another(not even pointing fingers, there's a couple big players doing that).)

Also, it's been two years since level 4, and we are just coming up on Level 5. Assuming that Illthir will have good diplomacy in about 2 years of real time may make the early diplomatic times a bit bumpy. As you say, we could also swap roles later if needed or people become more capable in aspects. Of course she could retrain to up diplomacy now, then retrain again once versatile performance kicks in. But skills are easy to fix, my point was that the character seemed headed in a different direction overall, albeit that, obviously, is subjective.

- The role of General is fine with me.
- If I should have Alia's 1803 gp, that's fine. I'll have to double check my inventory to see where the 800 gp is coming from.

The thing about Bluff is that you don't get a reputation for being a good Bluffer unless you get caught. You win the hand and don't show your cards, nobody knows you were bluffing.

And it is useful for far, far more than breaking treaties. It can be quite useful for a small and weak country to improve its negotiating position - to play a bigger hand than it has.

Used judiciously, of course.

I understand the potential utility of judicious use.
Alas, i do expect diplomats to have very good sense motive themselves, or in people in their retinue that partake in talks.
To "get hunches", read intent, guess what may be important or sufficient etc.
That, and I fully expect that aspects can be verified on other ways. Playing a bigger hand successfully does not mean individual agents spying in our lands don't confirm the truth of the matter - and in a high stakes-game like international diplomacy, it doesn't take many incidents to give you a reputation.
I was not only refering to breaking treaties: having everything we state, claim or suggest called into question until our partners verified with their own sources could be a bad situation.

Alas, it is not our decision to make. Neither of us will be grand diplomat, and whoever ends up in the position gets to decide when and to what extent to use their skills in the best interest of our nation.
We can certainly advise, but ultimately should not meddle with the decisions they make for their resort.

@Scarlet: I think a big chunk was a MW Composite Bow for 500GC, and I think a masterwork Armor for 250GC or so. We may as well sell those and buy raw materials if you've not been missing them.
Once downtime starts, I'll get to work to outfit all of you with basic magic arms and armor.

@Diplomacy - Illthir doesn't have the skill because it seemed like it was literally something pouring out of the ears of the party when she joined :P

I'll also point out that Skalds get their second rank of Versatile Performance at level 7 so that's 4 years away ... ^^

(I'm not sure what to pick yet so my options are kinda kept open. But there's competition with simply getting if for wind - say like getting the advanced version for use magic things!)

But I'll probably put at least one point in it at level 5 just for the class bonus.

@Role - Both diplomat and councilor sounds fun and I haven't decided which one I'd prefer.

It is helpful though that you both made good cases for it :)

I think the decision will come down to what sort of people I think I/Illthir would enjoy interacting with the most - so leaning towards councilor.

@Marriage - now that I think of it, weren't there some sweet lady already interested? The one with the very creepy Butler. If we want some allies I mean :)

Well for now Zokon is thinking we shall need to go back to Restov and claim our reward, Zokon should probably go see his father in Medvyed lands and then we should come back and take over..

I'll also point out that Skalds get their second rank of Versatile Performance at level 7 so that's 4 years away ... ^^

Hopefully more like 1-2. I would rather not plan on taking 24 years to finish (if we end at 17th). If we level up based on hitting AP plot points, maybe we can hit a patch of doing those more quickly.

@Marriage - now that I think of it, weren't there some sweet lady already interested? The one with the very creepy Butler. If we want some allies I mean :)

Lady Vsevolod? She was also interested in Zokon, and if he has only a business arrangement with Alia...

@Zokon, it is ultimately your decision who you want in each role. I think Durgan is best as Treasurer but will do any of them. I think Serena faces strong headwinds as Chief Diplomat (anti-Sarenrae prejudice most of all) but will accede to your pick. And I think you are right, first things first...

It is technically his decision.
But behind the screens, as a group, we should make sure not to force anybody into a role they do not see themselves enjoying down the line.

@pacing: well, in the years before, we did manage about 1 level per year, almost. But honestly, I personally am fine with doing some sandboxy stuff and not rushing from plot point to plot point just to get through quicker.

@Sarenrae: But hey, at least we don't have a High Priest of Sarenrae, right ;)
(so Headwinds yeah, but that could also appeal to her, considering Serena stated she wanted to challenge established systems in the name of progress.)

Either way, nothing is set in stone. Maybe Jhod dies of old age in a year or two, and Durgan follows him as High Priest for lack of other candidates(I think treasurer is easier to replace, although I have to admit that with abadar, it is a great fit for Durgan). Maybe a player has to drop based on changing life circumstances and we find ourselves with a vacant position(well, the character can keep it as NPC but we'll want to replace them eventually). Also, always the chance someone dies - we never know what the future will bring, and can always change duties or swap positions.

Heck, maybe Serena and Illthir want to do both jobs together, interchangingly dealing with relevant people(Serena internal nobles, external non-Taldans, Illthir internal civilians, external Taldans).
Only one could influence each check per month, but if it sounds fun and could work, why not *shrug*

I hae a +5 to Diplomacy.

...am I the party Diplomat, now? Time to speak softly and carry a big stick as General.

Get me a blueprint from Alkenstar and I'll build you a gunboat - HMS "Bull Moose"!

Illthir what role do you want.. please pick

Serena would you accept the role of Diplomat?

Oh crap.. Alia would have to be presented to my father if we are to play nice with him... no stabbing, no matter how annoying they are!

Durgan I feel it would be an insult to you and the church of Abadar if we did not at least offer you the role of treasurer.

General Scarlet..

Spy Posh..

Sorceress Supreme (High Mugwump) - Victoria

NPC's

High Priest - Jhod
Warden or advisor? - Kesten Garess The Garess part of his name gives us option to
Enforcer (Not in book that i've seen) - Akiros

Are Chief Sootscales stats the same as in the book? As a close alliance with the Kobolds might help us.

Durgan doesn't have the backstory with the kobolds and is very much of the "kill them all" mindset after what they pulled with the kids. Somebody will have to explain to him why we would possibly want to ally with them.

As to pacing, it would be different for me if our meandering combats and social interactions made us better at combat and social interactions, but my sense is that we are leveling on plot points, not XP. I could be wrong. I would really like the skills, feats, and spells to be better at the sandbox exploration and at running the kingdom. A sense that Durgan is getting better through practice.

So I am would rather have a faster pace of leveling, and will try to pick up on the GM's nudges if they should happen to come.

@Role - Both diplomat and councilor sounds fun and I haven't decided which one I'd prefer.

"What of court jester, nuncle?"

Sorceress Supreme (High Mugwump) - Victoria

I think "Witchy Pooh" is probably the formal title--unless of course Eldiocesan of Dweomervale is taking the position in which case it would be "Court Wizard".

Are Chief Sootscales stats the same as in the book? As a close alliance with the Kobolds might help us.

Some of the survivors have stats from the book. You could send Illthir (in her official motley of course) back to her cell to negotiate with them.

Durgan doesn't have the backstory with the kobolds and is very much of the "kill them all" mindset after what they pulled with the kids. Somebody will have to explain to him why we would possibly want to ally with them.

As to pacing, it would be different for me if our meandering combats and social interactions made us better at combat and social interactions, but my sense is that we are leveling on plot points, not XP. I could be wrong. I would really like the skills, feats, and spells to be better at the sandbox exploration and at running the kingdom. A sense that Durgan is getting better through practice.

So I am would rather have a faster pace of leveling, and will try to pick up on the GM's nudges if they should happen to come.

The plot points in the game are all worth XP (raiding the bandit fort, collecting on bounties, exploring hexes, the month-to-month running of a government, etc....) so there's no real difference between the two (plot or XP). I just don't have the time to micromanage the XP, and then go through and make sure everyone else is paying attention (because if I were going to go through the trouble of awarding XP I would award it based on actual character participation in an event rather than to the party as a whole as a sort of participation carrot). Overall the party has had about a dungeon-length module+ish (i.e. three or four PFS scenarios worth) more encounters in the game then they would have if they just went through the book straight encounter for encounter (i.e. you had a couple more side adventures, but did less exploring and therefore had less random encounters), and hence are ending a level up from the expected end point of the first book. The next module has the potential to be short depending on PC actions which (if we are trying to follow the Adventure Path level for level) gives us a little wiggle room. I am trying to keep us within a level or two of the AP books--just to cut down on work for myself. Though you already fall outside the parameters set down in the books by being a party of more than 4 and having epic ability point builds.

There are a lot of filler encounters in these first two modules. These encounters seem like things that are random. One involves the party finding the Stolen Land's only marsupial--a Tasmanian tiger, in a trap (Why!? I don't have anything against marsupials, but just having one kind of them is sort of dumb especially the real Tasmanian tiger went extinct in large part because it was out-competed by invasive wild dogs--the Stolen Land is full of wolves, dire wolves and worgs!), another is mean turtle. While that's fine, the pacing is a bit weird as the party will most often have a whole day to face off against the threat of the very mean medium-sized turtle.... Yet there are random encounters where a party of 4 1st-level characters can encounter upwards of a half-dozen trolls. So we probably will not be doing most of those encounters. Instead you will get stories like wererats trying to takeover Restov, via a plague of plague rats, and poachers hunting rare speckled wolves both of which (I feel anyhow) actually add to the overall story.

As for Sneeg

If you wish to hunt for Sneeg, you can. He is not intrinsic to any plot beyond perhaps the party's relationship with Kesten Garess, and the potentiality of some free masterwork weapons as noted on his ReQuest poster. My in-person playgroup accidentally killed Sneeg (he and the young pickpocket were mauled to death by the adorable gnome druid Lexi's pet tiger) when they raided the Stag Lord's fort. The requests are sort of extra bonus XP and wealth rather than a baked in you need these to progress to the next book sorts of things so don't feel too bad if you miss out on one or two of them.

The next book has what are perhaps some of the worst Wanted Posters in the AP, in that most of them don't have much to do with anything really significant in the main story. For example in the first book we got a bounty on Tuskgutter the bad boar who took Vekkel Benzen's leg the year before, the reward for which was Zokon's bow, and party with locals featuring some fabulous head cheese. This time around--a very mean turtle.

Hmm.. your info on the Thylacine got me looking as the popular sentiment that Australians learn about their extinction is that they were hunted to death, which appears to be true.

Hmm.. your info on the Thylacine got me looking as the popular sentiment that Australians learn about their extinction is that they were hunted to death, which appears to be true.

Admit it, the inclusion of the Thylacine is the sole reason you own the Kingmaker AP. ;)

"Crikey! She's A Beauty!"

It did perk my interest.

in general, most marsupials were out-competed by placental mammals. Hence their rarity outside of Australia