Of Kings and Commoners - Kingmaker AP

Game Master RPGGGM

Thus the fox has done so well in Oz. There's only the dingo as a predator and there aren't anywhere near enough of them.

So a quick note about how the skill-based (rather that ability score-based) system works before we level up. Note this is actually different from the optional rules presented in Ultimate Campaign, and comes from Ultimate Rulership by Legendary Games.

Leadership Role Skills

The Optional Kingdom Rules section in the published rules provides a list of relevant skills for each leadership role, from Knowledge (arcana) for the Magister to Survival for the Marshal.... You provide a bonus to Stability, Economy, or Loyalty (as appropriate for each role) equal to +2, increased by 1 for every 3 ranks of the associated skill. Skill Focus in that skill grants an additional +1, and Leadership adds +1 to the bonus granted by any role. The associated skills are:
Diplomacy / Grand Diplomat
Intimidate / Royal Enforcer
Knowledge (arcana) / Magister
Knowledge (engineering) changing this to Profession (soldier) / Warden
Knowledge (geography) / Viceroy
Knowledge (local) / Councilor
Knowledge (nobility) / Consort, Heir, Ruler
Knowledge (religion) / High Priest
Profession (merchant) / Treasurer
Profession (soldier) / General
Sense Motive / Spymaster
Survival / Marshal

You might also want to figure out what your official titles are going to be (is Zokon going to be a King, Thane, Satrap, Baron, Pasha, or something else). For example, your neighbor to the west, Hannis Drelev, is going to be titled "Baron Drelev".

I was thinking Duke. Buttt...

The skills.. hmm.. I like it.. although i'm going to have to get leadership.. I assume that's allowed?

Yes. The Leadership feat is allowed.

Aye, Leadership is Alia's fixed Level 7 Pick, good to go there.
(L9: Stronghold, L11: Nation Builder - Kingmaker lends itself to Story Feats).

I'll have to catch up on Nobility(also: on Level 6=>Evangelist 1, it will become a Class Skill thanks to "Skilled" - with Int important for her class, Alia will actually be a decent contributor there...).
Which begs the question: How will the timing with level 5 be?
As Zokon said, he'll have to present me to his family. Does he get to give me a crash course on Brevoyan nobility and etiquette BEFORE we go there?
Or do I have to stumble through, hope to not put my foot in my mouth, and start learning afterwards?

Durgan will want a noble title just below Zokon's.
So if Zokon is a Duke, Durgan would be an Earl (and he would then invite his Lodovka friend to be a Viscount or Baron - could be the use of Leadership).

As to the specific lands and degree of autonomy, I have several ideas, but may be getting ahead of myself.

While I would still have a slight preference towards Durgan having his own realm, I understand that would be detrimental to party comity.
So I would like to have a northern border province with a high degree of autonomy within Zokon's realm.

We have foreigners, feminists, and heathens that would make the less enlightened locals very uneasy or even hostile. And we are looking to have our Grand Diplomat be a shining beacon of righteousness in a sea of CN nations (Brevoy, Numeria, River Kingdoms). So it might be good to establish relations with Mendev. That country is LG and ruled by a paladin-queen; I would guess that in Mendev's desperation to battle the Worldwound, Crusader Queen Galfrey has come to appreciate the valor and honor of Sarenrite paladins. One can't be too picky in Mendev's position.

That could also be a side quest worth doing - fighting some demons as a mission for Crusader Queen Galfrey to earn her support. Ties in to Durgan's backstory and gives Serena a regional ally/role model. Having her champion our position, even at a distance, could carry some weight.

Mendev does not share a land border with Brevoy, but does share the Lake of Mists and Veils - and so most trade with Mendev probably is handled by House Lodovka, the house for which Durgan has the Noble Family trait (in his case, close friendship rather than a blood relation). He may be able to facilitate an introduction through that house as well as through his Crusade contacts. It's not like I set out to give Durgan connections to the one LG nation in the region, ruled by a paladin-queen, with any thought of Serena's build and goals. But it works out well.

Durgan will use his limited influence to advocate for Zokon's designation in the charter, and getting the various noble houses and institutions (such as the Church of Abadar) accepting Zokon's position as head of our nation or confederation or whatever.

In exchange, Durgan wants a northern province, with as much of the border of Brevoy as possible, and definitely the border with Restov. He would like to have some mountains, with an eye towards drawing some dwarf clans to the region. Basically Lake Silverstep and the regions north and east - but I am not sure exactly how much land we are designated.
Durgan would like to have full autonomy over his internal affairs, and oversight of relations with the Free City of Brevoy. He'll support the realm economically and militarily if needed, and will let them control all other foreign relations.

So he'll have a border region that is more Brevoy-aligned and makes the nobles comfortable. The place where they come to visit. Any other PCs who would want to be part of this scene and "playing nice" with our patrons would be appreciated. He'll invite Brevoy nobles to his court and ensure that trade is flowing, which should keep them happy. He'll explain to them that Zokon is doing fine and should be left alone and that Durgan will ensure the various "undesirables" in Zokon's court are not running the show and are not going to make trouble for Brevoy -- that Serena isn't going to declare a holy war on them and Alia isn't going to invite the elves to take over. That Illthir owning lands in her own name in Zokon's more remote part of the realm is not something they need to worry about.

Essentially, Durgan's province will be a geographic and political buffer between Brevoy and the area where Zokon has full control.

Actually you just reminded me of the title I was thinking of.. Earl

If you don't mind I steal the title of Earl for Zokon and Durgan can be a Count (Ah! Ah! Ah! .. Lightning Crash)... you did come up with it first so...

Autonomous realms within is fine.. Zokon always wanted his own little place/secret organisation to call his own... not necessarily rulership... (Glares at you all!)

Why you keep knocking us down the ladder?? From King to Duke to Earl... Okay, okay. Earl Zokon.

Durgan being Count and Treasurer... too corny... I guess he'd go for Thane, if Zokon is an Earl. Thane sounds cool.

In exchange, Durgan wants a northern province, with as much of the border of Brevoy as possible, and definitely the border with Restov. He would like to have some mountains, with an eye towards drawing some dwarf clans to the region. Basically Lake Silverstep and the regions north and east - but I am not sure exactly how much land we are designated.

At present your lands are limited to the lands set out in the original charter the northern Greenbelt (so the upper part of the Kamelands and Narlmarches). The lands you are talking about are the province of your eastern neighbor, the Aldori Swordlord Varn. So no mountains.

To your west (though it is not apparent on the campaign map) there is a major waterway (one of the largest branches of the Sellen River) that cuts through the Hooktongue Slough (see overlay map here), and up to the Lake of Mists and basically connects to the River Kingdoms and beyond down to the Inner Sea. That hunk of land however has been given over to your western neighbor, the recently titled Baron Drelev.

That said there are alternatives....

Cavern City

A cavern city is one built underground. Common among dwarves, drow, and similar deep dwellers, surface kingdoms can establish cavern cites as well. In some cases they resemble cities on the surface, constructed within massive vaulted caverns, often surrounded by fungus farms or smaller satellite quarries or mines. Other cavern cities, however, are simply interconnected cave complexes, wherein each city lot comprises its own warren of caves and chambers, linked by tunnels and passages to adjacent parts of the city. Some cavern cities are lit by veins of crystal or luminescent fungi, others by magical lamps, and some by simple torches and lamps, while those inhabited entirely by dark-dwelling races may have little use for lights at all.

Terrain: Cavern, (at the GM’s option, any terrain type that has the Lair special terrain may connect to a cavern suitable to build a cavern city)
Borders: No water borders.
Limit: Cavern cities have no streets or alleys and all buildings are considered impassable buildings. They can be entered from adjacent buildings, but can only be exited back into the building lot from which a creature came. One set of Tunnels must be built for each square of 4 lots to build the tunnels that allow passage through and around those lots. Wooden buildings may not be constructed in a cavern city.
Settlement: Corruption +1, Society +1, Danger +5
Banned Buildings: Aerie, Castle, City Walls, Lighthouse, Lumberyard, Observatory, Park, Piers, Sacred Grove, Stable, Stockyard, Tannery, Waterfront, Watergate, Waterway (allowed in city, but not village or town), Windmill
Free Buildings: A cavern city gains one free City Wall as a village, gaining one additional free City Wall once it becomes a town, and another on becoming a city, and another for each city district it adds. No additional City Walls can be built.

Also, I'm going to allow for a few more hexes to be added to your lands during the downtime, so don't feel too bad about not exploring more. Plus, if you want you can take actual in-game time and explore as well. This is all a little bit down the road, but something to consider.

Magistra is the feminine of magister and sounds cool. Altho Witchy-poo is a strong second.

Howabout Migistra (I didn't know that) Witchy Poo Victoria?

Coven Mistress?

I don't know if now is the time to divide up lands, simply because we have very limited space to work with. I dare say our territory will expand - so if Durgan wants mountains, he may want to wait a bit to claim his stake.
We can start "developing" territory all the same, and then suddenly find our actual capital mimics the development of the city in the core realm that we've been taking care of.

For Alia it's rather simply, as she wants part of the Narlmarches - which incidentally is also close enough to the Fort/Capital that it should work out easily(with a good road, 1 day of travel at most).
But she'll have to find her capital city first, courtesy of the map she retrieved.

Also, there should be strong autonomy for each "subrealm" that a player wants to manage. Simply because of the play-by-post format. It's easy to tell the GM what happens. It's a lot harder to coordinate plans with 3 other people, work out an acceptable solution for all, then do it 3 more times for other stuff.
So while Durgan may have thematic reasons to desire such, it simply makes most sense for the format we use, while giving quite some freedom to each player.

It also makes sense thematically, since we can do token interactions and gestures with our inmediate neighbours without committing all our resources.
Say Selena wants to have better relations with Mendev and sends volunteers off to the crusades. Her thing. Unless Zokon makes it a crown issue, only she needs to commit.
I think it's a great way to handle it, and also allows a very interesting approach to grand dilemmas. Because different parts of the realm may have very different capabilities and contribute to problems in different ways - I'd expect Durgan to be very strong economically, while a different region may have highly skilled mages, or yet another a well-trained military force.
So while any one problem may be too much for a single region to tackle, depending on the issue at hand, who will be able to contribute most and coordinate the effort may change with each dilemma.

Of course, we should make sure to do as much of our book-keeping ourselves and show our work to minimize workload for our GM.

Also, I like that everybody gets to pick their jobs working title :)
Of course, with nobility ranks, it's set due to hierarchy.
But for the functional roles on the grand court, a "Lord of the Blings" Durgan, a "Grand Witcheroo" Victoria, or a "Hey Baby" Alia(a joke - don't, or there will be stabbing) would be amusing to have :)

@GM, thanks for clarifying, I tried to decipher the Regional Map Folio but missed some things. Cavern cities could be a possibility for a second city, but Durgan's capital has to be a place that Brevoy nobles would want to visit. As one of the few PCs who is not an outsider or outcast, it is probably better that he build his court as the place for Brevoy nobles to come to nod in approval at their investment. A Cavern City would be great for drawing Glimmergold interest, for sure.

Durgan wants, in the long term, some mountains and the border with Restov at least. If there is an Aldori Swordlord's region in the way... well, we will see how things develop. If he proves troublesome in a way that we can capitalize on, Durgan would rather have a direct border with Restov than have to go through another upstart's land. Have we dealt with Varn? And then on the western side that Sellen River branch could be valuable if there is any good reason to take on Drelev. Durgan does not have much respect for the Baron. And he seems likely to make some blunder we can exploit.

Nothing says that LG has to mean 'unambitious doormat.'

So for now, I think Durgan would like the northern segment of what we do have, with an eye towards expanding later. In order to have contiguous territory in the future. I will take a look at the maps and original charter in more depth.

If Serena does want to engage with Mendev in some capacity, Durgan would be glad to lend a hand.

Well, that's quite a large stretch of territory :)
Not that the Narlmarches are much smaller.

But before we start dividing the lands, we may want to check who all is actually interested in territory administration.
As said, main thing is to have fun and everybody who wants to try should get a go at it.
Depending on how many interested parties we have, we may end up with larger or smaller territories available for each.

I do agree that Durgan on the border to Brevoy is probably well placed - as long as you have no plans of seceding(/threatening to do so IF we have a fallout with Brevoy at some time).

And LG is often rather ambitious...so all good. I think we all are, in some ways.
That said, we all have our motivations. If Alia would send people to fight demons, she'd probably activate the Elfgate and point at Treerazor. Alas, she will definitely set up an industry to work with metals that work against such beasts.
So if Durgan can mine the needed metals, she can craft the necessary weaponry, and troops no matter at which front will at least be properly equipped for their threats.

(That said, I do very much hope despite the autonomy you are looking to cooperate on such matters, not looking for autarky? I'd be all up for you getting those mountains completely, but not if you keep all the mine output for your industry or selling at an upmark -).
I would not expect so, but you put yourself in a position where you control everything going in and out from our sponsor, trade or otherwise, possibly opt to control the raw metal industry(I know you said some mountains, not all mountains...but "some" may be all we get looking at the map...), and your god loves bling - so I figured it's probably best to ask, still - no offense meant :)

Oleg's outpost is on the border, just off a roadway....

@GM, Oleg's could be a good starting base for Durgan, and the Stag Lord's keep for Zokon.

@Alia: In-character, Durgan recognizes that he and Zokon have the strongest support, and if he is going to defer to Zokon, he wants some appropriate compensation. Or he will ask for his own realm, a 50/50 split of the lands (in which case he and Zokon would form an equal-partner confederation). As a subordinate, he'd settle for 25% of the lands, with first pick of which 25% of any new acquisitions that are contiguous with what he already has.

It is not my fault that everyone else made outsider/outcast PCs. Part of my fun derives from the verisimilitude. Which is why I read the Player's Guide and made Durgan the way I did. And it is for that reason that Durgan is in the position he is. Anybody else could have been. Don't blame me for that.

Durgan has no intention of seceding or threatening to do so. And he will cooperate with Zokon on most matters. He does recognize that he has a strong bargaining position and wants a reasonable price for his political support (which is not huge, but worth something).

Mine output will be sold at a reasonable profit, less than that paid by any other land. But not at cost. We can negotiate later on the exact figure unless you want to hash that out now.

Durgan has a strong bargaining position and recognizes that. He still has the option to ask for his own realm.

As a subordinate, he will be 100% honest on everything related to his duties as Treasurer, including the value of trade flowing along the routes.

He's also not going to control the trade routes to Mivon, Pitax, and Numeria.

In this post, please do not read any animosity. There is none. But I do have things I want to achieve and my own sense of what is fun for me. I have already (temporarily) conceded to you by not asking for my own realm, as I think I had a right to do. Do not push it. I'm willing to accept a subordinate position to the Zokon-Alia dynasty. Is that not enough?

We shall need to get the realm going first.. basically build the first village/town then the next.

Each town/village would want to be an administrative hub for that area anyway so, that sounds great.

Remember, too that these are very early days, and that things will change.

I wouldn't call everyone an outsider. Illthir and Scarlet seem mercenary enough to fit in with Brevoy and if the confederation becomes a thing could probably get money and supplies from someone interested in having a toe-hold in [Insert Kingdom Name Here]. If they want to be rulers that is.

On that point, as it stands now (mechanically speaking at least) your kingdom is one kingdom. So no 'official divvying' of hexes that would interact with the kingdom game rules. If Zokon wants to give Tamris and Rain some sort of official authority over the enforcement of poaching laws in the Narlmarches he can, but Tamris can't be the Marshal of the kingdom unless he is the Marshal of the kingdom. Otherwise Durgan (and whomever else wanted to go with him) would need his/their own kingdom roles/heirarchy list with different PCs and NPCs filling the various roles with Durgan as a ruler and not treasurer.

The smaller the individual kingdoms are or become, the more likely that other PCs could get a chance to rule based upon the fact that they would by necessity be smaller with less potential (in the short term) to pose a threat to Brevoy if they rebelled. Those PCs might still have to do somethings in-game to make it happen (marry someone, join something, or take a huge amount of money and advice from someone), but it is there as a possibility. If everyone decides to be a ruler I'll have to find some more NPCs.

"I choose Mung the meatpie-seller for Treasurer."
"I'll take the fat kid, what'shisname, with asthma!"
"Dammit.... I guess you're with us Bill."

Speaking of choosing NPCs to fill positions (and assuming that everyone is united in the founding of a united [Insert Kingdom Name Here]), I'm letting you folks decide who you want, and how you go about recruiting them. Just let me know who you want to talk to when you are ready.

@Characters: I very much knew about the concept of Kingmaker, read the players guide, etc.
But there's also always the question of what fits, what angles are wanted, how the characters will be introduced. There may also be things you don't know about characters just yet. For example, Alia only once gave a last name, and that was fake.

Also, one reason I(and possibly others) did not present a character with a stronger claim from Brevoy was that back then Numalar was still around and very clearly pressed for his leadership position - and also very clearly stated that he intended to make a round-table variant with equal power for each member, so that it would not seem like he alone was ruling. The game also pretty much seems to assume that the players tackle things as a group.
As such, there simply was no need to try and get in a better bargaining position, as nobody planned to be first among equals and be better off than everybody else courtesy of their background.

Which is pretty much what you are doing now. I understand there is no animosity, but it does seem you push for what you want to achieve and do with little care about others.
I suggested to try and see who all wants to take part in the kingdom building and should be handed lands, then see how we go about that.
You disregard that and straight out claim at least 25% plus first pick of a quarter of new aquisitions, or you'd press for 50%. That does not seem like teamplay.
Heck, maybe it's only 3 people who want to do actual adminstration and you even get 33%, but you are pressing your claims before we even know.

Which is why I am asking what you are trying to achieve/what you consider fun, so that we can work towards that without tensions. The split-approach already gives you full control over your own part of the lands. You stated what lands you wanted, and while not my decision to make, I said I was okay with that as long as it was not in preparation of secession(because you DO talk about your own realm and your rights a lot - and I simply would not want to "never have seen it coming" down the line). So no, I am not trying to push, I am trying to understand.

I also don't want a situation where you can hold us hostage to force your politics on the group or you'll side with Brevoy to overthrow Zokon(e.g. to make sure we never declare independence, because you want to keep your close ties with Brevoy - not saying that would even happen, but you'd be set up in a prime position to try and make a move for power. - I do understand you are aware this is a team game, but all the same, you justify things that go against that spirit with your background, and it's hard to see where you'd draw the line.)

@Alia - I am happy to handle this in-character with Zokon. Maybe through PMs.

Durgan has no intention of seceding, defecting, trying to impose Brevoy values on Zokon, or overthrowing him.

I want him to be able to provide a buffer.

And I want him to utilize his negotiating position as an actual person in that position would do.

In-character, Alia has limited say here.
As a player, I have conceded enough to you in the name of comity.

@Alia - I am happy to handle this in-character with Zokon. Maybe through PMs.

You don't think this is rather elementary topics and possibly concerns the whole party?

Edit: both in and out-of character, you did not have much to concede to me. The one thing I pressed was the potential marriage with Zokon, and I did dial that back to Consort in the very first post I suggested it, rather than Co-Ruler - and honestly, that is an issue between two other players so you would have little say on the matter to begin with.
You wanted Treasurer, that was fine.
You wanted a title directly below Zokon, uncontested.
You wanted your own administrative realm, sure, lets do that.
You wanted those specific lands, yeah, fine.
I don't want concessions(like promise to never do x) of any sort or asked for them, I try to understand.
I said myself the geographical position is great for Durgan, exactly because he would be a great buffer. But I was unsure because you kept bringing up your own realm. That made me insecure and I asked. That's all. I neither meant to push you nor offend you.

I would have rather had my own realm, because I thought a Zokon/Alia marriage was a bad idea that would leave us in a weak position and we would need additional points of leverage. But you protested that would make it unfun for you by somehow forcing everyone else to do things my way (logic I do not agree with).

So I am conceding by taking a subordinate position to Zokon rather than my own realm.

That is where I am coming from.

Durgan's Brevoy-allied realm needs to be relatively strong to assure our patrons that their interests are represented. I do not think I am being unreasonable.

Our position will not be weak. I can promise you that much.

I understand your thane-dom needs to reassure Brevoy - but hopefully our whole kingearldom will be reassuring to them. They ARE sponsoring us for a purpose, after all, it's not like they will have reason to see their interests ill-represented by any of us unless we mess up. ;)

The one thing I admittedly saw as unreasonable here was that you wanted to partition the cake before we even knew how many people wanted a piece. (unreasonable both ways-. Say we are the only 2 who end up doing kingdom building...will you still want 25% and leave me 75%?)
Or you wanted to go solo about aspects(like first pick of new territory - we don't even talk about it as a group) - simply because both seemed like things that should depend on the group and other participants, you know, do it as a team.

We had many discussions in the past few days, but also found many points we agreed on. I am not trying to antagonize you in any way.
As mentioned, I simply meant to try and understand your drive better so tensions will be minimal.
You are free to ask me as well, in PM or otherwise. I think better understanding of each others position helps a lot to find common ground.

This is the deal Durgan is offering Zokon for his support. In character.

25% of the starting land, reaching to the northern border, subject to mutual agreement; should we acquire new land, 25% of that, with first pick, subject to the condition that it is contiguous with Durgan's existing territory. Knowing that Durgan's honestly stated goal is the Brevoy border and the mountains. And no crazy gerrymanders.

If we ever happen to acquire new land, we can consider renegotiating. Maybe Durgan get 40% of the land in one acquisition but Zokon gets to choose which 40%. Default is that the original deal stays in place.

Zokon can take it or leave it (or counter-offer).

I do not support a communal decisionmaking process imposed on every decision I make.

If there are other PCs added to the New Charter, or who can influence Zokon's inclusion, they are welcome to make their own conditions.

Contingent upon the fact that we get the first settlement up and running.

This means food/water, defense and administration.. until that is done no other settlements will be started but after that... the preliminary plan is to set up Durgan's administrative capital and then so on and so forth.

@Zokon, sounds good to me.
What do you want for the first settlement and/or your capital?
The bandit keep?
Another location?

Bandit keep

It's a great central hub with water access and has great price reduction benefits to building a keep (player knowledge).

We'll leave Olegs as the next as it would make a great trading/visitor hub and be great for a more money minded administrator.

So Durgan can build Oleg's Trading Post into his capital... will need an appropriate post for Svetlana so that everyone visiting pays her respect. Magistrate, Mayor, Honored Founder, or something.

Durgan has a lot of respect for Svetlana and the late Oleg - one reason he is so intent on tracking down Salzarus.

Zokon shares those sentiments.

The communal decision-making I suggested was in regards to divvying up new lands.
Hardly simply "a decision you make" by yourself, and neither one that should be run by Zokon alone. (In character, sure. Out of character, we are a group of players and nobody should be excluded. That was the spirit of the game all along - and not one we should throw out based on some ambitious backstory. As said, few people spoke up and expressed interest so far - but disregarding them as a default modus of operation because your deal is with Zokon alone or you go do your own thing still seems against that spirit. Note that WE will likely not have much overlap. I'll want as much of the forested area as seems fair, and that is a completely different region than what you are opting for. But maybe some other player also wanted some mountains? Pity, he never gets any because you get to pick all of them by yourself, without input from anybody else, and can refer to your initial demanded deal.)

You both seem to be forgetting that the typed word looses nuance and emotion.

You both are seeming far harsher than I think you are wanting to be.

Let's chuck some diplomatic language in please.

Spoken like a true king Earl!

You are right, of course. My main point is that making decisions as a group does not mean that individual wishes and priorities are disregarded.
But we have handled it that way since the very beginning, planning our next steps, how to proceed, considering how to deal with problems.
I did agree, for streamlining, that individual sub-territory-decisions should be handled with full autonomy.
But I believe that grander decisions and key events should allow everybody to present their input - and that everybody should be involved in the process, out-of-character if not in-character.

There, I tried to re-word my thoughts in a more inoffensive way and apologize if my previous wording was deemed too aggressive.

@Zokon - it sounds like we have an agreement. Great. I have tried to express myself as matter-of-factly as possible, so if there is emotion coming across, I will try to make my language more neutral in the future.

@Alia - You are welcome to offer your opinion. I am not asking your permission. Those terms are what Durgan is asking Zokon in exchange for expending his very limited resources - in this case, political capital. As with gold and spells, anybody can make suggestions but in the end it is Durgan's decision to expend those resources as he sees fit.

@Everyone - You can rest assured that when Durgan is selecting the 25% that he wants of any new gains, he will be considerate. "First pick" does not mean without input from others or ignoring their interests. He's not going to try to alienate his friends and allies. And as the GM said, for now it's all one realm for game mechanic purposes. If things change in the future he will be open to making new deals, and of course would not use this agreement to trample or bully anyone.

This never was about my permission. The way it was worded made it seem to me that you intended to push for your demands without consideration for the other players - and that would have made it a group issue.
Hence why I tried to understand - you since clarified that this is in-character and purely between Durgan and Zokon about a resource Durgan has to offer - so it makes sense to not care about others. I may personally not like that kind of "bypass-the-party" deals but I should have been more diplomatic about expressing what worried me.
Of course, that kind of political pressure game will end up being available to everybody, and in multiple ways and layers - and of course, the value of Durgan's "policital capital" may also change over the course of the game so obviously nothing is set in stone(as you say, things can change in the future, as can deals) - my mistake was that I thought you were negotiating as a player rather than as character - and looking for a permanent preferential treatment over others. I apologize for that misunderstanding.
Either way that personal ambition thing on characters works for me even if it's not what I was looking for originally. So yeah, we're all good from my perspective.

@Role - I'll go with councilor I think : )

@Argument - I must admit I kinda threw away most of that as soon as I read it.

Seems like we are talking about where to build our orchards when all we have is a planter box with a sapling.

There won't *be* any extra cities and such for a while unless a lot of resources simply materialize from thin air.

When (and if, should things go poorly) we can afford more cities governor-ship will certainly be important and it's good people are interested. When : )

@Future Requests - But since we are making wishes already - Illthir would love a coin minted with her face. Because I the player love to use that spell Enter Image once in my life :D

@Titles - Sorceress Supreme sounds pretty cool I agree.

Earl makes me think of that silly muppet from "My Name Is Earl"... You are certainly welcome to take that title but know that my perception will be coloured :P

As Treasurer, Durgan will be happy to mint coins with everyone's faces.

He will also be making electrum pieces great again. And Treasure Types.

We should probably head to Restov/Brevoy, but then contact the relevant NPC's.

Jhod and Kesten are currently at Olegs if I am not mistaken, Akiros is at the Fort.

Further NPC's we should send for or look to contact in some way:

Svetlana(not for a kingdom role, but give her a position and keep her with us)

Tamris(unless someone has a better idea for Marshal? requires a wildlife protection act though.)

Eldiocesan of Dweomervale(because if you got a Level 18 character roaming your lands, you let him know about the founding of a Kingdom on the off-chance he randomly pops by and offers some mystical guidance or insight)

Old Bokken(an Alchemist we may want in our service in the future)

Samuel Renault(because he's the closest thing to a Mayor-Governor in the northern area. Durgan will want to get to know him)

Chief Sootscale&the Kobolds. What happened was BAD, but one way or the other, we need to end that conflict before they get crazy ideas.

If anybody got others, we can extend the list.
For example, if we want to look how Faeria the Mad is doing, we should do that while we stop by in Restov to save us a trip back there later on.(in fact, lets do that - just make sure she is ok.)

We should probably tour the peasants in our area as well. It's always helpful when they understand and agree that they are *our* peasants :D

A good hundred or so of our peasants have just found themselves in that line of work after their previous employer ceased operations.

Aye, we should definitely tour the peasants.

They're not peasants.
They're citizens.

Scarlet will never admit this, but she'd rather farm alongside them.

Smallfolk, then?
And nothing stops you from doing that :)

Right now, I doubt we'll have any armies to command, so get your hands dirty building a farm.
Then make that a dogmatic decision. That everybody in the army should have something that reminds them why they are fighting.
Something to come home to, a home they want to protect.

All of a sudden the general spending lots of his time farming is not just a hobby, it's an inspiration. :D
Make sure the high-ranking officers help shovel dirt, too, to keep them bonded to the land, and humble in the eyes of the levies.
(Assuming you plan to promote on merit, considering we'll not have many nobles to begin with that could want an officer post)

Wow! 20+ posts! 10 in the first few hours! This is going to be great! Everyone is going to present their ideas for Gondor II: the Electric Buggaloo! I can hardly wait to read these! I was so excited I didn't even read them yet. I just wanted to come down here and express how glad I am to have players this dedicated (and Posh too of course ;)).

Give me a moment (maybe two) to read all of these and get back with my thoughts.

Cheers.

@Illthir - Peasant Commoner Smallfolk Citizen Affairs is your job, and you've already got us off on the wrong foot! It will be okay.

@All - Historically, one could be a peasant without being a serf, but that might not be true in this region of Golarion.

Still, "Citizen" is the more important word in Scarlet's post, and we will need to define what that means. That will be relevant sooner rather than later, especially if we are to speak with Samuel Renault about our new authority.

We'll need a constitution outlining the rights and responsibilities of our citizens.

As I said when I introduced Durgan, Abadar is the patron of judges and laws in many lands and does not have one ideal set of laws that he mandates. Durgan is pretty flexible about what laws we choose to implement, as long as they are clear and do not lead to either the River Kingdoms or Brevoy freaking out too much. And do not end up with us facing the Final Blades.

Many people are not going to be happy to be told that we are in charge now.

I think the best way is to offer guarantees and benefits so that people want to be under our jurisdiction. Durgan will do his part to provide healing to citizens, for example - while Abadarans do not provide healing for free, here it is paid for by their taxes and their contributions to the economy. And if some holdouts still don't want to submit to our authority, well, we will have a problem.

despite her biological parentage, Victoria's life has been among the smallfolk/ peasantry, so she's familiar with that kind of life and not looking for anything special. A day's work for a day's pay. Hmm, now that I'm thinking about this, she make take a Marxist bend over time...

And do not end up with us facing the Final Blades.

Hmm, now that I'm thinking about this, she make take a Marxist bend over time...

Well, it was a nice hope while it lasted...

Though Galt's Red Revolution is inspired by the French Revolution which actually predates Marx, I suppose...

I agree that we don't want to piss anybody off, at least to begin with.
But it's bound to happen, eventually. *shrug*

One grand thing we SHOULD incorporate if we want support from the citizens are the River Freedoms.

For reference:

The closest thing the River Kingdoms have to a unified set of laws is the code of justice known as the Six River Freedoms. They are normally ranked in ascending order of importance. Thus free speech is not considered as important as freedom from slavery, for example.

These are the rules the people here already live by. Respecting them will go a long way towards being accepted, and even, possibly, gaining popular support from the citizens of our neighbours.

This is the freedom of speech (and not to be confused with freedom from the consequences of your words). Criticism of government is common in the kingdoms, and lords of the kingdoms who are lenient with loose tongues are likely to live longer.

Bards take special advantage of this freedom, and spells like silence are viewed in a harsh negative light.

We actually DO want that, no matter what. We'll be a fledgling kingdom. Having people express their criticism and doubts will go a long way towards gaining their support, by helping us prioritise.

Making an oath is a huge deal for the people of the River Kingdom (where trust is hard to come by, and earned in blood), and this freedom grants the people of the kingdoms leave to persecute anyone person that breaks an oath. Riverfolk who take on oaths usually keep them, or die trying.

This freedom can have some constricting side effects on traders and businessmen, who are loath to make strict commitments or promises.

A matter of honor embedded in the locals. You stand by your word. Either don't promise something, or make sure you keep it.

This freedom prevents the river kingdoms from blocking travel over land and water, including charging tolls for passage.

The fate of the town of Heibarr is sometimes used as a salutary tale of what can happen if the third freedom is disrupted.

Free travel is a great thing. Ideally, we won't need toll bridges and the like because our infrastructure is supported by our economic basis. But I believe in the long term, we stand to gain from supporting this, or eventually even encouraging it.

One of the most basic freedoms of the River Kingdoms, this one holds that all laws within the river kingdom are flexible, and that rulers of a kingdom may do as they wish. Visitors to a river kingdom -- be they king or commoner -- are bound by the (often arbitrary) laws of that kingdom. Consequently rulers of the different kingdoms infrequently visit each other, and instead rely on liasons and intermediaries. The exception to this is the annual Outlaw Council.

This supports, technically, some freedom in individual laws of autonomy regions. I agree we need some overarching structure but local laws may differ. We should be lenient with Visitors, though.

Escaped slaves are an important fact of life in the River Kingdom. A slave that escapes to the River Kingdoms is considered truly free. By some estimates, more than a third of all people living in the River Kingdoms are either escaped slaves or children of escaped slaves. Thousands of slaves make their way to the River Kingdoms annually and fiercely defend their newfound freedoms.

Hellknights of the Order of the Chain are unable to hold office in the River Kingdoms, and Andoran Eagle Knights are held in special regard by its people.

In theory, a no-brainer. But I think we should take it a step further and make sure people are REALLY free. Workers in low social castes are often no better off than slaves, working for 12+ hours a day, barely earning enough to feed themselves and pay for cost of living. I know that brings us back to that Marxist bend...but ensuring that our citizens have a high standard of living will keep public support high, and may cause trouble for any neighbours that decide to mess with us(as they will likely have many low-born people in their citizenry who support us). Of course, we first need to get our economy off the ground, but we should look into improving the quality of life of the poorest once we are ready.(That should also cut back on crime.)

This freedom draws the moral distinction between stealing and robbery. In the River Kingdoms, it is more preferable to face your robber, to be allowed the opportunity to resist (and perhaps to repossess!). It is acceptable (and perhaps worthy of praise) to take what you want by force.

Theres a big one. It's the most important one, and in a way, it holds true. But people are still social creatures. They don't go over and demand their neighbours sheep, or daughter. Because that kind of thing doesn't usually end well. Instead, they bond together in communes and make sure they, as a group, can hold what they have against those who would come from outside the community and make demands.

Stuff sounds good, great once we have a meeting hall to enact them in.

Most of us seem pretty humble, Zokon not completely so, but he spent most of his life in a village so he's a bit humble.