Of Kings and Commoners - Kingmaker AP

Game Master RPGGGM

Beaky... makes sense once you understand the name.

Now, if I can roll over a 10 maybe I can do something about it.

I'll be away from the 16th to the 22nd bot me as needed. I will have some limited phone internet.

Roger that.

Post! Sorry for holding us up!

And I'm glad Beaky has been put to sleep. Doesn't seem like a willing participant in this whole bandit thing!

Sorry Illthir, the ground floor map for Durgan was correct. I just changed his position on the second floor map to agree with it.

Isn't Hideous Laughter just "2 saves", not "1 per round", and the Stag Lord has already had 2?

As to Beaky, he's not going to be asleep for long. Slumber is just 1 round/level.

@Laughter - Oh right it is. Wow the stag lord is really f#!!ed huh. Might as well fling that other laughter at the other non-magical bandit.

@Slumber - Hopefully those rounds are enough for us to get him contained again. Or just drag him outside the gates and lock them - that might be a bit more work then we have time for. And there's still things we care about outside ...

I'm gonna rend Salzarus to shreds in a bit.

Back to posting tonight.

If I'm not mistaken, Durgan's Enlarge Person will end just before his next turn.

Tanglefoot bags Illthir tanglefoot bags. Get those for that pesky mage!

When we had our "bank visit" we really should have stocked up on more consumables specifically to defeat Salzarus. That was why Durgan got another scroll of Invisibility Purge. But I don't think Salzarus knows that is among our tactics, since it never revealed anybody - the less he knows about our tactics the better.

If we level, Durgan will get the chance to cast Invisibility Purge routinely, and both Durgan and Victoria could get Dispel Magic. Perhaps some other PCs can get See Invisibility. I think some already have Alarm so we are not ambushed while camping.

Consumables that could be useful include tanglefoot bags as well as scrolls of Locate Creature, Echolocation, or Scrying. Echolocation defeats most of his tricks since you can keep your eyes closed.

As to the possibility of him hiding his trail, that is accounted for in the Survival skill and is not an auto-success (nor is moving along a riverbed). If he were trying to move along a riverbed while hiding his trail that would be roughly DC 25 and he'd be moving at half speed.

We cannot allow him to keep getting away.

This striking helmet is crafted to resemble the skull of a mighty stag. A lot of extra paint as well as bits and bones from other predatory animals have been added to it's original design. Although made from bone, the antlers and helm are as strong as metal. When worn, the helm greatly enhances eyesight and hearing, granting a +2 competence bonus on Perception checks.

In addition, once per day the helm may be called upon to enhance any ranged attack made by the wearer to make an insightful shot. Activating this ability is a free action, and once activated, your next ranged attack against a target within 30 feet is made as if that target were flat-footed against you—this allows a rogue to gain the benefit of sneak attack with this shot. If you don’t make a ranged attack within 1 round of activating this power, the insight fades and is wasted for that day.
A worshiper of Erastil who wears this helm may utilize the insightful shot ability up to 3 times per day.

Bling ring and mummy bird are a ring of protection +1 and an amulet of natural armour +1 respectively.

Hmm. Random thought - the "any ranged attack" could be a Ray right?

Didn't think about it the last time I saw the fancy hat but it could be quite neat for a mage looking to sling ranged touch spells as well. If someone would be so inclined : )

(But it is of course also really useful for someone with Sneak Attack! @Zokon - time to multi-class into Arcane Trickster :P?)

I already have a 1d6 sneak attack as a slayer... weapon master is only my temporary vocation my true calling is piercing bad guys with arrows .. sneaky style.

Yeah but arcane trickster gets sneak attack + spells to really leverage that flat-foot ability :D

Spells... bah... I don't need no stinking spells!! ;o)

If I take Craft Magic Arms and Armor at level 5, I might be able to repair the bow. Of course, I need materials for it, but...

Make Whole (Clr2) works if Caster Level is double the item's caster level, and has no cost.
Greater Make Whole (Clr4, so a ways away) works if Caster Level is equal to the item's caster level, and also has no cost.

Or we could just grind it down for magical material dust or something :P

Heck it might not even be magical, just thought it'd be useful to check.

Also!

@Loot - it seems as if the Party Loot alias belonged to Peet/our most esteemed gnome sorcerer whom doesn't seem to be around right now.

Would anyone more familiar to our treasury look through the alias and tell me how much is up to date?

I'm thinking it might be useful to move the loot tracking to a google docs sheet.

Also!

@Loot - it seems as if the Party Loot alias belonged to Peet/our most esteemed gnome sorcerer whom doesn't seem to be around right now.

Would anyone more familiar to our treasury look through the alias and tell me how much is up to date?

I'm thinking it might be useful to move the loot tracking to a google docs sheet.

Yes, probably. I was going to wait for the downtime to commence (and for me to get a weekend free). ;)

When we had our "bank visit" we really should have stocked up on more consumables specifically to defeat Salzarus. That was why Durgan got another scroll of Invisibility Purge. But I don't think Salzarus knows that is among our tactics, since it never revealed anybody - the less he knows about our tactics the better.

If we level, Durgan will get the chance to cast Invisibility Purge routinely, and both Durgan and Victoria could get Dispel Magic. Perhaps some other PCs can get See Invisibility. I think some already have Alarm so we are not ambushed while camping.

Consumables that could be useful include tanglefoot bags as well as scrolls of Locate Creature, Echolocation, or Scrying. Echolocation defeats most of his tricks since you can keep your eyes closed.

As to the possibility of him hiding his trail, that is accounted for in the Survival skill and is not an auto-success (nor is moving along a riverbed). If he were trying to move along a riverbed while hiding his trail that would be roughly DC 25 and he'd be moving at half speed.

We cannot allow him to keep getting away.

Why? So another villain takes his role and place. If you are going to base this on mechanical meta rather than actual in-game reasoning, then the roleplay meta says that if he is defeated, we'll not have an easier time in encounters henceforth, since his cousin is out for revenge.

Alarm is a 20-feet emanation. In a wilderness camp, I would not take chances because that is less than charge distance for a surprise round.
A scroll of echolocation is about 1000 GC worth bound in a selective countermeasure - that COULD be useful, or could be wasted if he simply DD's away.(Unless you bring more selective countermeasures to prevent that) - the opportunity cost is there.

@Hiding Trail: I am well aware it's not an auto-success. The point is that he can easily use such features to make it harder for us to track. Meaning he can have that horse Hustle for double speed(forget hiding trails), while we are forced to track at half speed(and technically, half speed of tracker - logically it makes no sense that you could track at double speed if your mount is magically made double as fast - it could already move faster than it is.)

That's assuming he is not travelling a road that sees regular traffic, or using a boat, or flying, or anything else that does not actually leave trackable trails behind. That is fully within GM rights to decide.

I understand your frustration, but in this game, the bad guys often get away. We may be lucky this time around and get him, but you best accept that we will not be able to hunt down everybody we meet. It irked me in the beginning too, when I feel we did everything right and the bad guys still got away. But it's actually charming, in a way - it adds some persistance, it makes them actual characters that do not foolishly risk their lives trying to make a stand, and offers repeat encounters.

By all means, I am not saying to let him go, but using our bank to load out on consumables specifically to deal with one enemy? Not a big fan. Also because while consumable expenditure is accounted in WBL and assumed to "trickle-back", it's not instant - you don't unleash 2 grand worth of consumables and find them in the loot again right after the battle. Otherwise the bank concept would be utterly broken by allowing us to use consumables almost exlusively to perform actions well beyond our abilities. So it's not only that the money is fixed into those consumables while we might run into enemies where they offer no benefit, it's a lasting opportunity cost that temporarily reduces our overall WBL, for the chance to replace one enemy caster with a different enemy caster we have yet to meet.

Salzarus is extremely dangerous. We cannot let a mid-level wizard hit-and-run on us at will, and we cannot let him prepare and bring the fight to us.

I just do not agree with your reasoning either IC or OOC. I wish to track him down and defeat him. Why are you so certain he would be replaced?

I think spending at least some resources to prepare for a recurring foe in hope of defeating him someday is preferable to throwing up our hands and saying "He's just going to get away again because that's what he's supposed to do."

I believe we have agency, and if we had employed tactics to defeat Salzarus then he would have been defeated (and not given a freebie auto-escape by the GM or magically replaced by his identical twin cousin). Do you doubt that we have agency?

Consumables are extremely valuable for surviving tough fights. By no means 100% of wealth, but 15% or so is reasonable IMO. WBL does not matter much to me as a player (and it matters not at all to Durgan). We will soon have multiple crafters. Maybe not a scroll of Echolocation just yet, though.

Echolocation is one of the most useful spells in the game. Defeats darkness, blindness, Invisibility, fog clouds, and Mirror Image. Better than True Seeing in some ways. Do we know that Salzarus is capable of D-Door? If so, then YES, Durgan will get a scroll of Dimensional Anchor (or just ready to interrupt).

Alarm is entirely useful. Pick a defensible location with only a few key spots to ward. Will be better when we have a base. Let me ask, what is YOUR plan for us not being ambushed in our sleep? Rather than just naysaying, can you offer some better ideas?

For not being ambushed in our sleep? Keep Watch, which is a first level spell and covers 2 people currently in addition to those on regular watch, and will cover more in the future because it scales nicely with levels.
Also allows you to be armed and ready, not prone, without taking precautions regarding sleeping in armor etc. - both have their uses, but I prefer Alarm for in-door/single-point-of-entry situations.

@WBL: Not an issue, as said, we have multiple crafters - but it feels gamey to me to try and use bank to pull out specific counters for what we need all the time, and the trickle-back means we won't have the options to use them for something else for a while.

I am not doubting the use of Echolocation, I am just saying it has a large opportunity cost at 1000 GC. Thats more than a fully charged healing wand that may be missing when we need it. Or about 3 scrolls of Fly, or 6 potions of Darkvision. Whatever. It also only works for ONE person. Glitterdusting him has less utility, but is more partyfriendly in that others get to benefit as well.

I did say we would try, I am not throwing up my hands and say it's fate. I am just not of a mind to try and single-mindedly focus on him for the near future, invest our spare gold into dedicated counters and expect to succeed because he's too stupid to try and save his skin.

I do believe we have agency, but so do the NPC's. His right now is to stay alive. His current employer was offed, their base of operations taken over. I doubt he would try and hit-and-run us out of a sense of pride. He risks a lot and has little to gain.
He'll try and lay low, possible even head to a neighboring country. I believe we will see him again, but possible not for 2 to 3 more levels.

If he does come back in the near future, against better judgement, then by all means, bring down the wrath. But I believe for now, he'll sneak away, and hide like the snake he is, far from our grasp.
And that we'll soon have our hands full with other tasks, namely Kingdom building and whatever Book 2 brings. Getting side-tracked into a lenghty quest to try and track him down may not be good if we are operating on a timer again, or means we are causing diplomatic issues by vigilantism in a different realm.(say if he decides to head to Pitax and finds employ there with a future enemy. We can go and off him, but in Pitax law, that makes us the murderers since he committed no crimes there...)

Keep Watch is a good option, had forgotten about that. Won't pick up invisible foes but keeps us all combat-ready.

I am not counting on this "trickle-back" you speak of. If I spend 50% of my gold on consumables to stomp every encounter, the GM should not throw more gold my way to make it up. That's not my understanding of how WBL works.

Rather, the WBL is a bit below "accumulated gold from encounters" expecting that PCs will have expended some consumables, and their WBL is estimated at roughly 15% existing consumables.

Durgan has the advantage of not needing some of the Big Six due to class abilities. So I am inclined to spend more of my share on consumables. Like the Wand of CLW I have, and the scrolls I got specifically for this battle.

I mentioned Echolocation mostly out of frustration at Mirror Image. Was just in a Seeker PFS scenario with multiple foes using that at-will. I suppose Dispel Magic is a better option.

I don't except to defeat Salzarus by him being stupid. I expect us to defeat him by us being smart and prepared, with some tricks that he won't see coming. (Or chasing him down when he is out of spells.)

Another idea - though we have consistently failed at trying to get others to fight for us, we could try to use the bandits to at least track down Salzarus.

100 gold plus a full pardon for information leading to his capture. Or 200 for his head. Maybe some would hop on horses and ride after him.

Yes, I understand it might not work. But then again it might.

I like the idea of posting a bounty. We should however make sure it is proportional to how dangerous he is without being too much (we don't want some random level 1 scrubs to try and fight him - but we don't want it to be big enough that everyone just drops what they are doing to chase him).

With a bit of luck though there's some of his items still in the keep. We can save them for scrying later.

We should also get some cheaper counters to Mirror Image and the like. Some alchemical weapons could be handy - Thunderstones are AoE aren't they?

A simple vial of something really sticky and stinky might be handy too. Just tag him with it and we could scent track him. We'd need something with scent though to track him - but we do have a foxy new friend whom might be able to.

Just a heads up, there is a lower level to this fort that probably needs some exploring. After that though there is "downtime" in which the campaign (by the books transforms into a version of Civ/Sim City).

During this time you have the opportunity to do a couple of things besides build Neo-Rome. This includes going on adventures you want to go on. If you want to hunt Sal that's a possibility. As is exploring other dungeons (the tunnels under the Sootscales' silver mine perhaps?), exploring more wilderness locations, hanging out with NPCs, conducting diplomacy with Mivon, or "Fort" Drelev, journeying to Brevoy, hiring competent allies (there's actually a Minigame!; Needles seems nice ;)), taking on pet projects (that little smithy, Alia's been dreaming of; that gingerbread cottage Victoria's been eyeing on Zillow), hanging out with kobolds (maybe even playing some of them for an adventure!)--basically whatever you folks can think of plus a few things that I have for you as well as a few things that are part of the game as described in the Kingmaker books.

I would not spend too much time on Sal immediately though. You basically eliminated his familiar and his easy access to high-explosives (having the Stag Lord's bandits hijack black powder from Pitax). The bandits don't like the creepy elf (he never showed off his real complexion to anyone but the Stag Lord--BTW I'm a bit surprised that Alia didn't make a bigger deal of it) so it is not like he's going to gather up a bunch of them and return in the morning to kick you out of the fort. He'll need to collect new allies, a new lair, and resources before coming back again--if he ever does.

This of course assumes you all survive what lies below....

Illthir is keen to dig deeper into that magical flute information at least :-)

I should mention that I bought the CRPG for Pathfinder: Kingmaker. It's been a lot of fun so far and I can't wait to see the differences GGG makes. There's already one big one. I can't wait to see how the city building stuff works on PbP.

Scarlet wants to establish a permanent base for BB Beetle and her mercenary Company, nearby the fort. They've been on the move for way too long.

there's a gingerbread cottage on zillow?!

Victoria needs time to commune with Arris to get her spells online. She'll be more useful after that

@Durgan: We are pretty much on the same page.

I am just saying we did track him once, and he proved to be wary enough to expect that, and to move faster than we could track him, only allowing us to catch up for that ambush part.
There's plenty of tools a single caster can utilize to make himself hard to catch for a whole party coming after him - also, as said, I don't think he'll stick around risking his head if the only reason would be petty revenge.

I did not take note of the altered color palette of him during the fight(I think first he was hidden in shadows, then out of my line of sight), but there's an easy trigger if you want Alia to drop all she does to try and hunt him down.(That also as response to GM - I think at some time he was behind me in line of sight, but i figured I was trying to stab the Stag Lord and not really paying much attention to 'behind')
Just as a player, I am pretty certain we'll see him again - and I think it would be a fool's errand to try and focus our resources on trying to catch him now.

@WBL and consumables: The point is that specific tools and items were hard to come by. We needed to place a order in Restov for even mundane tools. So the only way to quickly get specific consumables would be via Bank. And that is kind of the "fast access pool" for stuff we really need, in my eyes. Like, someone got petrified kind of bad. Empyting that pool for nice-to-haves kind of rubs me the wrong way, but that's simply a personal view.

So yeah, some specifics may differ, but in general, we both want him gone all the same :) I just advocate some patience to see what situation we end up in with the end of the arc.
Also, only Zokon is now a Charter Holder...

Also, only Zokon is now a Charter Holder...

As Mel Brooks once repeatedly said.

Ah! Ah! Ah!

@Alia - I don't know when we'd get a better opportunity than we have right now. Salzarus is low on spells with a 3-minute window of Invisibility. The 8 hours' uninterrupted rest he needs to prepare spells is a real weakness we could exploit.

His motivation for coming after us will not be revenge but self-preservation. A pre-emptive strike. He knows we want to kill him.

I do want to at least offer a bounty/pardon to the bandits to get some of them chasing after him tonight. The fact that it is night (I think) probably means they won't catch him, but perhaps they have hounds. Or can have a dozen trackers doing Aid Another on Survival. There's a chance we get lucky.

It is still night (and will be for about 5 hours).

Alia of the Blade wrote:

Also, only Zokon is now a Charter Holder...

As Mel Brooks once repeatedly said.

Huh. I was thinking more along the lines of "there can be only one" or something :P

@Alia - I don't know when we'd get a better opportunity than we have right now. Salzarus is low on spells with a 3-minute window of Invisibility. The 8 hours' uninterrupted rest he needs to prepare spells is a real weakness we could exploit.

His motivation for coming after us will not be revenge but self-preservation. A pre-emptive strike. He knows we want to kill him.

I do want to at least offer a bounty/pardon to the bandits to get some of them chasing after him tonight. The fact that it is night (I think) probably means they won't catch him, but perhaps they have hounds. Or can have a dozen trackers doing Aid Another on Survival. There's a chance we get lucky.

He is low on spells. We don't know if he's dry.

I totally see your point. I am just saying we would need to start chasing RIGHT NOW. That means abandoning the Stag Lords fortress now, letting any nearby bandits that see us depart loot the place dry as they leave, possible freeing the old man in the cellar, or even torching whats left of the place.
Even if we leave the captive and the Belkzen Boy with Akiros, it's not certain he alone can 'hold' the outpost for several days we are on a chase, chances are we return and he and the boy are dead, and that captive gone.
I think we should first establish our presence here, explore the levels below the hold, make sure the bandits understand what happened and scatter, then resolve more readily available loose ends(like the drowned spirit haunting Scarlet).
But even if we just "clean up" the Fort, then start chasing before resting, he'll have a headstart that is more than 10 minutes.
That 3-minute invisibility thing only applies if we start moving RIGHT NOW, before even stripping the Stag Lord of his valuables(likely also gone when we come back).

@Self-Preservation: He knows we want to kill him but he can also be reasonably certain we won't come after him across country borders, as he knows we have tasks in the stolen lands.
From Kressles band, he probably knows I am looking for a hidden Elven Hold.(and I certainly hope we find the map they took from my buddy downstairs)
From Olegs and previous encounters, they know most others are here on a job from the Swordlords. You 2 new guys are the wildcards, but I believe Salzarus will see a better chance with moving one or two nations over and laying low for a bit, rather than try and take us on by himself after we assaulted a fortified position where he had backup in form of mooks, his boss, an owlbear, etc...and won without losses. Thinking he has a chance by himself would take a special kind of retarded bravery. While from the chase of Tartuk we know his buddies have a subterranean operation here, I doubt he's in good standing with them, or they would already have sent a kill squad after us previously.

The bounty: Not opposed, totally do that. It might just be difficult to get the bandits to stick around and listen to you - or, if they do, those who did have to do with him might be too scared to try for it(as I understand, most are peasants-turned-bandits with low cohesion/training/morale). But worth a try, but this is wilderness, so before we establish roads/postal service/communication it might be a bit hard to actually get the news to spread faster than he can travel by himself.

@Alia, I think you are making him a Schrodinger's Wizard, but regardless, I agree we cannot abandon the fort and we cannot split the party (for OOC/Gameplay reasons).

Edit: by saying "I don't know when we'd get a better opportunity than now" I am not trying to persuade the party to chase him. Rather, lamenting the fact that we are not going to chase him. It sucks. I think we'd have had a reasonable chance of catching him since he is not omniscient, but it wouldn't be a sure thing. Maybe 40%. But the situation is what it is and I concede we aren't going after him.

@GM - how far is the nearest outlying camp?

We have a bunch of troops outside the keep atm, if they disperse, i'm all for chasing Sal down.

We have a bunch of troops outside the keep atm, if they disperse, i'm all for chasing Sal down.

By the troops you mean all the bandits? I'm hoping to use the bounty to get them to chase Salzarus down.

He doesn't have a huge head start, doesn't (yet, that we know of) have a boat or horse, and doesn't (that we know of) have the ability to Fly or D-Door. And maybe he doesn't have Monkeyfish and Mount in his remaining spell slots.

I decided against offering a bounty on his head because I didn't want to risk the bandits killing an innocent elf and bringing his head back for a reward. So the bounty is for him alive, bound, and gagged.

The closest camps are with in a quarter-mile--easily within hearing range of the black powder explosion that rent the night sounds a few moments ago. In fact the explosion could be heard for miles around. The hydra would have dipped all its heads back down in the lake after hearing it.

Now getting a group of strange, desperate, wanted men, living rough in the wilderness, in the middle of the night, to get up and chase an obviously dangerous, darkness/undead-friendly wizard (who is no doubt the focus of much whispered camp rumor) is probably a very tough sell even under the threat of death (or pardon), and especially if you are doing it one small camp at a time. More likely (and anyone with a Sense Motive mod of +8 or more could figure this out before executing this plan) the brigands are likely to run off if they can.

On the other hand he didn't seem to have a horse (or a body because he was invisible).

In short, the logistics don't favor the party, though I am not adverse to you splitting the party, but that's because I am evil. ;)

Yeah, I don't want to split the party.
I could have jumped off the wall, gotten him in the range of Invisibility Purge, and chased after him, but that would have had me doing my own solo mission.

If the bounty idea is not viable (I wasn't sure if the bandits really dreaded him or thought he was a fraud) then we'll track him down and kill him another way at another time.

Perhaps through recruiting some other allies as you alluded to.

Maybe the nuckalavee will kill him in a random encounter.

If the bounty idea is not viable (I wasn't sure if the bandits really dreaded him or thought he was a fraud) then we'll track him down and kill him another way at another time.

Salzarus used to have a floating undead head as his familiar.

Maybe the nuckalavee will kill him in a random encounter.

One can hope.

Durgan Far-Walker wrote:

If the bounty idea is not viable (I wasn't sure if the bandits really dreaded him or thought he was a fraud) then we'll track him down and kill him another way at another time.

Salzarus used to have a floating undead head as his familiar.

Cheap parlor tricks! Come on, people!

Hum, not a Schrödingers Wizard, just assuming that he also had some contingency options beside "get killed" and "run into the wilderness and get killed". He cast few Level 1 spells, and while Alia has less spells per spell level and is only a 2/3rd caster, I usually kept one of her spells a utility one.
On full casters, once higher level slots are available, I often use lower-levels ones for general utility or situational contingencies.
That, and level 1 scrolls are just 25 GP a pop - and unless he has some archetype that trades it away, he gets to scribe them himself if he's a wizard.
YMMV, but my wizards often had a couple scrolls of more obscure spells ready if needed. They are also commonly found as loot, so I suppose it's kinda usual.

But I think this conversation is going in a wrong direction. I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong in some way, I am just trying to say(and did) that we have more pressing inmediate needs and there is a myriad ways he could make good on his getaway if he prepared even one option to get away.
The first time around, I was the one heavily pressing for chasing him down - and we only caught up because he wanted us to. So yeah, I admit, chasing him is low in my list of priorities simply due to very low chance of success with awesome result still being outclassed by the much more tangible other options.

But as said, tell me he's a Drow and we're moving.

He's a drow.

I meant in-character, but eh...*shrugs*

Lets hunt him down, again. Brother will want to know why they are building a fortress below North Kyonin, and this one might have answers.

Yeah, you caught up to him, survived the ambush, killed one of the lieutenants, and he only escaped by some miraculous rolls on saves by his horse.

You did well there. Don't let that ambush keep haunting you and telling you that we are doomed to failure.

Re:drow - is that a Knowledge (Local) check for Durgan to realize the significance of Salzarus's dark skin? Or is it just so extremely unusual that Durgan might remark on it without my OOC knowledge?

I am slowwwly reading through the Gameplay backstory. There's a lot but it seems to influence decisions we make.