MoF's Hells Rebels

Game Master MordredofFairy

I did ponder, briefly, trying a "two gun mojo" build for Boros. I looked at what would be needed, in terms of feats and class stuff. It was feasible, but I ultimately rejected it because it just didn't fit what I had in mind for Boros' personality (plus, it didn't look to be much fun to actually play; I want to play the game, not game the rules).

I also looked at Gun Twirling. There's an Ultimate Intrigue archetype for gunslingers that stacks with Pistolero and makes Gun Twirling usable for pretty much nothing but the cost of the feat itself. It was, in a word, meh. The archetype would take Boros from rough-and-tumble soldier to greasy riverboat gambler (sheesh, the archetype is even named for a notorious riverboat gambler TV character). Plus, Boros is just too blunt and obvious to effectively demoralize or fake-out his enemies in a fight.

No, Boros is very much sword and pistol, two swords when the pistol is unavailable or inadvisable, or thrown melee if ranged is a must-have but the pistol is a must-not (or, maybe, a crossbow if he must have something "shooty" in his hands).

Totally did not notice the Opening Volley feat! I have a wee, tiny bit of wiggle room in Boros' feat progression, and that might just be a good choice. One shot, then get in close and gut 'em while they're rattled. It seems something that Boros would find appealing.

Shadowshooting is interesting. Definitely have to pair it an ability (magic or class) that saps Will beforehand. Otherwise, it'd be too chancy for Boros' liking. However, more likely would be Distance and Nimble Shot abilities. The former doubles the range increment--and lets Boros get full value out of Point-Blank Shot instead of his current 2/3--while the latter removes the AoO penalty for ranged attacks. It's a combined +5 enhancement bonus, so that'd pretty much eat the available enhancememt pool for his pistol, unless he's willing to dip into the +4 available for attack/damage boosts. And he'd have to find someone to actually do the work, not to mention paying for it.

The bandolier, on the other hand, just went on Boros' wishlist, lol. Cheap and low requirements to make means he might actually be able to get one in a reasonably early timeframe. On a more mundane note, investing in a weapon cord for his pistol is something to consider.

Edit: Wow! There is a ridiculous amount of discussion about weapon cords. And it appears that gunslingers are to blame for it :p. I didn't even know that was a thing. All that drama over a bit of cord that can be cut faster and easier than a fart, lol. Though I do wonder, why can't the cord be tied off to a belt or some such, instead of a hand? Seems rather odd.

Edit #2: Upon further thought, it seems very weird that Quick Draw will let Boros haul a weapon out as a free action, but not put a weapon (gun or otherwise) back at the same speed, even with the AoO for doing so.

Matter of fact, I would NOT expect dual-wielding to stand uncontested by the time we reach there.
There were several shenanigans available before for crossbows, and most of them were patched up.(it's still possible though).
Thats what I referred to, that in the past, paizo was not very happy about it...it could be they care less with firearms since many campaigns flat out ignore them/ban them but so far their stance on multi-wielding ranged weapons was not very promising.

Therefore, the question was not wether it was possible, the question was if you want it to be feasable.

Thats on the whole group, since Juliette now joined Miranda on pitching in with ideas.

Let me clarify: I understand that as arcane archer, you have different shenanigans. But if there is no good reason for a full martial character to choose a bow instead of a rifle...then that martial character will choose a rifle.
If mass-produced cheap pistols can be handed to low-level mooks, who then attempt to mow down high-level opposition targetting flatfooted touch AC in ambush situations or forlorn-hope charges?
They will use that(heck, the ease of use and quick training was one of the main arguments for widespread military deployment of firearms).

It is completely and utterly up to you(collectively) how the world develops. If you want primary firearms combat to be a very effective choice, it can be. But no such choices are one-sided.

I picked Boros as a Switch Hitter because Varuzhan alone would easily get focused down, and Miranda will only be moderate melee backup(if at all). The other three are ranged/casters. I'm all for organic character growth, but do consider the needs of the group, too. It is mostly an Urban setting, and with streets and houses, pistols will often be able to be used efficiently despite the range increment. But that same reasoning also means you will often quickly land in melee, with little time for control to be employed.

@Your edit 2, Boros: Simple game balance. You could otherwise quickdraw a crossbow, fire it, reload with your other hand, fire iteratives, quicksheath it, quickdraw with the other hand, fire, reload with main hand, etc...as said, dual-wielding ranged weapons is something paizo went to great lenghts to make difficult or inconvenient, because it's quite likely to break certain balance aspects if done in an optimized way.

Hmm, possibly found a solution to the Quick Draw thing, and it even fits Boros' build; Mixed Combat. The only downside is that the source is 3rd-party (Dreamscarred Press}. But it would go neatly with Opening Volley too; Volley, holster pistol and draw second sword using Mixed Combat, with a move action to reach melee range. Next round, let the stabbing commence!

A psionic Feat? What about the good old Glove of Storing.

Mixed combat seems gamey, since it does require Quick Draw. It seems the intent of the feat is quickdraw Greatsword(Nodachi if full power mode), slice once two-handed at power attack with furious focus, then quick-sheath melee, quick-draw pistol(s), not provoke for firing in melee, target touch AC. Quick-sheath (both) pistol(s), quickdraw (Tower) Shield for extra AC, then at beginning of next round quicksheath Shield and repeat.

I know it's not the intent for you, but yeah...we'd need to reword it to fit your intent.

(In other news, I wanted to update tonight but had to check one more thing...will, again, do so in the morning, when you meet the madame-

A psionic Feat? What about the good old Glove of Storing.

Mixed combat seems gamey, since it does require Quick Draw. It seems the intent of the feat is quickdraw Greatsword(Nodachi if full power mode), slice once two-handed at power attack with furious focus, then quick-sheath melee, quick-draw pistol(s), not provoke for firing in melee, target touch AC. Quick-sheath (both) pistol(s), quickdraw (Tower) Shield for extra AC, then at beginning of next round quicksheath Shield and repeat.

I know it's not the intent for you, but yeah...we'd need to reword it to fit your intent.

Combat feat, from a psionic source, which is pretty strange considering what the other feats in that book offer. If there's a theme that Mixed Combat is supposed to fit in that book, I'm not seeing it.

And since Boros is a Dex-based combatant, why not start with, at a minimum, a Dexterity prerequisite? I can see this feat requiring a bit of coordination to manage all of the actions involved. Then slap a limit on how many times the benefit can be used in a turn (not a round, mind, but a turn just in case I somehow come up with some sort interrupt trick during an enemy round or something) equal to the Dex modifier. Or, better still, half the Dexterity modifier (minimum 1 use). Since Boros will have, with level boosts, an eventual natural Dexterity of 18, that would allow two uses in a turn before any magic stat boosts come into play.

You are aware that a Dex prerequisite would be a non-hurdle, right?
Either it is so high that it's not a valid choice, or it's passable and thus not a hurdle at all.
In other words: Putting a prerequisite on something that uses the main stat the whole thing depends on in the first place? Not a reasonable prerequisite.
If the reasoning was "Oh, that's very exhausting", you need a minimum Con Score, THAT would be a hurdle since for ranged combat you may have decided not to go with 16 Con, and if you boost it via item you are not boosting Dex, or it becomes way more expensive.

Either way, while I am quite willing to chat about things, I seem to remember that I already made a call a few posts back...that for the time being, we stick with "regular", and revisit stuff if it feels you are falling behind.
I am, currently, quite unwilling to do homebrew-versions of 3rd party content that is potentially breaking stuff on the off-chance that it MAY be necessary somewhere down the line(especially when there's already tons of shenanigans available in the vanilla ruleset.)

You are aware that a Dex prerequisite would be a non-hurdle, right?

Either it is so high that it's not a valid choice, or it's passable and thus not a hurdle at all.
In other words: Putting a prerequisite on something that uses the main stat the whole thing depends on in the first place? Not a reasonable prerequisite.
If the reasoning was "Oh, that's very exhausting", you need a minimum Con Score, THAT would be a hurdle since for ranged combat you may have decided not to go with 16 Con, and if you boost it via item you are not boosting Dex, or it becomes way more expensive.

Either way, while I am quite willing to chat about things, I seem to remember that I already made a call a few posts back...that for the time being, we stick with "regular", and revisit stuff if it feels you are falling behind.
I am, currently, quite unwilling to do homebrew-versions of 3rd party content that is potentially breaking stuff on the off-chance that it MAY be necessary somewhere down the line(especially when there's already tons of shenanigans available in the vanilla ruleset.)

Hadn't considered that. Interesting point, and makes perfect sense now that it is explained.

I know that this is all nothing more than speculation that may never come to pass, I'm fine with that. As I said, I'm just doing this because it gives me something to think about at the moment. And since reading doesn't cause me problems, I've decided to read up on just what Boros can do, can't do, could do, and why (not). What I'm coming up with might (probably would) be more suited to a Rules or Advice post, but it's your game it would affect, so that's where I post these little nuggets.

The joy of being the final authority :D. Hail GM, we who are about to game salute you!

And now for something completely different :D.

Boros eventually gets a pair of free teamwork feats and the ability to share them with allies. The number of rounds this lasts, as well as the number of times per day the ability made by used, is reliant on his level (as are nearly all of the VMC-granted abilities). I'm gonna go ahead and assume that this refers to his actual cavalier level, not character level, and that his gunslinger level doesn't count as cavalier levels either. That means once per day, for 3 rounds, everyone in range gets a buff, but it'll have to be one that counts, with low or no prerequisites. Since the group would be affected by this, I'll throw the choices open to suggestions.

On my own, I've worked out Stealth Synergy, Pack Attack, and Target of Opportunity as being the ones--from least to most--worth taking.

Stealth Synergy is one of those feats you take with people, not that you use limited feat-sharing for. Being able to sneak really well for 6 rounds a day just isn't really that useful, as it were.

treating his character level as his effective cavalier level.

Also, nope. Full level.

Stealth Synergy is one of those feats you take with people, not that you use limited feat-sharing for. Being able to sneak really well for 6 rounds a day just isn't really that useful, as it were.

VMC Cavalier wrote:

treating his character level as his effective cavalier level.

Also, nope. Full level.

Stupid Google-fu failed me. It failed to bring up the one result that I actually needed, lol. That's handy to know, though. More daily uses and more rounds per use is never bad.

And that brings it to Pack Attack and Target of Opportunity then. And whatever I can find on that d20pfsrd site, which seems to be functioning erratically today.

In my opinion, feats that work best as temporarily teamwork are typically seize the moment, paired opportunists, and outflank. Those however all really require combat reflexes for most of the party.

Target of opportunity is nice too, but it unfortunately eats an immediate action, and unlike attacks of opportunity, you only ever get one immediate action regardless of feats or build.

Dug up a few more choices: Volley Fire, Coordinated Shot, Covering Fire, and Enfilading Fire offer ranged options.

Then there's Harrying Partners, Spirit of the Corps, and Precise Strike. Since one of my cavalier abilities grants a bonus to aid another checks, Harrying Partners seems appropriate. And extra damage is never a bad thing either, especially since Precise Strike doesn't specify ranged or melee attacks, merely that those using it must flank the target, while the fact that it applies to each successful attack made against that target makes iterative attacks really harsh if the majority hit. Finally, that Spirit of the Corps lets one morale boost go that extra mile, which seems useful.

Edit: If I'm reading this all correctly, Boros can, upon gaining Snap Shot, also make ranged threats that would allow a melee ally to get the flanking bonus, and thus the extra damage, though he himself would not gain the bonus or the extra damage.

Since we're talking Teamwork feats, I'm gonna throw one out there for entertainment value: Friendly Fire. Just picture roleplaying that one.
Boros: Shoots Varuzhan in the back.
Enemy: "What the hell was that?" Drops his guard.
Varuzhan: "Your worst nightmare, bastard." Thwacks the surprised enemy on the head.

Varuzhan will undoubtedly take Combat Reflexes at some point, so Juliette's suggestions merit consideration. Since your feat doesn't come online until level 9, I also like Seize the Moment if you happen to have the prerequisites. Outflank is also good - I'd say a little better than Precise Strike, but they're both solid feats. But we'll see if there's much flanking going on the way our party is structured.

I did have a few laughs visualizing Friendly Fire, as it happens.

Seize the Moment is certainly possible. The way my current progression for Boros is set up, I have exactly two feats to allocate that aren't build-critical. And the prerequisites for Seize the Moment are hardly a burden, like Combat Expertise seems to be. I would have to do some juggling to fit them in, however.

Outflank seems complimentary to Precise Strike, upon comparing the two. Outflank makes sure the hit connects, then Precise Strikes makes it hurt that much more.

On the topic of sharing Betrayal feats: Your allies are never treated as being capable of being betrayed as a result of the betrayal feat. Instead, you just let them do what they want with you. :P

Can pick up all of the critical stuff by level 12, including the prerequisites for Seize the Moment. After that, it's refining the feats already taken, or picking up useful little tricks. Sword and Pistol makes Outflank and Precise Strike a bit more handy as teamwork feat choices, since I can bring my gun in close now without triggering an AoO for using it.

@Lily/Sharing Betrayal - You are probably thinking of the Inquisitor "my friends have my teamwork feat" mechanic. The cavalier actually shares the feats propperly so we can all happily stab eachother : )

I'm not sure it's worth the extra feats to get Seize the Moment. Your build is already quite packed to pull off your fighting style, and it's probably worthwhile to push some of those other feats earlier. For instance, Sword and Pistol seems to be the iconic feat to make your character truly dual-wield, and you could probably get that by level 8 if you don't worry about qualifying for an incidental teamwork feat. Just grab whatever teamwork feat makes sense once we get there.

Impressed you could pull this together. Looks like a fun and unique build!

Not my decision to make, but in general, I would advise to not "lock in" a decision now that you adjust your build for.

Considering, speculating, and thinking is all fine, and I know thats what you do currently.
Alas, you may find that you are very seldom in a situation where you flank(making those feats less useful that require doing so), or that the other non-melee characters focus on those characters you don't threaten(so melee-guys can do a full attack on those), making those feats depending on you threatening a target less interesting.

All in all, I would recommend getting a good grasp on how your team tactics work before looking at options to support your style. Maybe a betrayal feat is the way to go? Maybe it's not...only time will show :)

Boros' lips twitch upward in barely-suppressed amusement as the madam casually destroys the group's admittedly slipshod facade in just a few sentences.

Hey, she failed to spot Juliette's Ring. She also did not mention any arms or armor(which are proscribed)...she did miss a couple things(or was not certain enough to bring them up), but it's still enough to warrant asking ;)

Boros Black-Hand wrote:

Boros' lips twitch upward in barely-suppressed amusement as the madam casually destroys the group's admittedly slipshod facade in just a few sentences.

Hey, she failed to spot Juliette's Ring. She also did not mention any arms or armor(which are proscribed)...she did miss a couple things(or was not certain enough to bring them up), but it's still enough to warrant asking ;)

(On the plus side, you managed to fool someone on the street with your "disguise" of a drunken buddy after a brawl. Several things happen off-screen, so don't feel I don't value those attempts. I just feel if I point attention to someone, to show that he did NOT take notice of you, you'd understand all wrong and assume I pointed the person out BECAUSE he took note. Know what I mean?)

I figured as much. Just because I make a check, and even do well at it, doesn't mean there's anything to pick up on. On the flip side, not making that check could have its own penalty, so no news is good news.

Edit: I'm referring to the Perception check I made before we all hustled across the street.

Well, I did try to add him in now(the drunkard at the alley entrance), because I basically already explained in discussion. *shrug* anyway, you guys were not memorable to him and he didn't take a closer look.
But yeah, many of those "opposed" checks will be hidden.(especially since you technically don't know how well you did).

Something about that feat progression I posted earlier seemed off, couldn't figure out what it was until just now. It had one feat too many in it.

One thing that I'd like to insert in the chain of events... It seems pretty obvious that Lily is the one who should be doing the talking here. If Nissim knows she's been here and so forth It'll be obvious to him as well. And if he knows that, he can cast enhanced diplomacy on her, which might help out a little.

Sure thing, and utterly reasonable. Also something you have time for(and an expectation that you could need it) when the elf goes of to fetch the madame.

Interesting stuff about our new friend. He was carrying scroll of Fireball so presumably he can use it. He somebody with a higher profile, enough to be recognized by the madame.

But one can't help but wonder what one would do with a Scroll of Fireball at a somewhat crowed place like the protest!

...

Better give it to someone more trustworthy for safekeeping! *hint hint nudge nudge* :P

But one can't help but wonder what one would do with a Scroll of Fireball at a somewhat crowed place like the protest!

...

Better give it to someone more trustworthy for safekeeping! *hint hint nudge nudge* :P

I concur with this.

Give the scroll with the incendiary crowd-clearance spell to Varuzhan ;P.

Or Lily, or Juliette, or Nissim. Maybe Boros. The madam might be a good choice too...

Well it might not be so bad as it appears. What I'd do with it is treat it as the best balcony window aimed rocket launcher a lower tier arcane caster could bring to the party.

That is indeed a good point : )

My personal pick would be this cause only the nuclear option is good enough for our dear leader :P

(Then again, it does best with some Caster Levels to back it up! 4d6 Con drain in an AoE? Sign me up!)

Miranda Greenblossom wrote:

But one can't help but wonder what one would do with a Scroll of Fireball at a somewhat crowed place like the protest!

...

Better give it to someone more trustworthy for safekeeping! *hint hint nudge nudge* :P

I concur with this.

Give the scroll with the incendiary crowd-clearance spell to Varuzhan ;P.

Or Lily, or Juliette, or Nissim. Maybe Boros. The madam might be a good choice too...

:O

.

...

:(

Speaking of pathfinder things looked down upon by civilized society I've always found it somewhat amusing (and tempting!) that tieflings are immune to Viridium!

That is indeed a good point : )

My personal pick would be this cause only the nuclear option is good enough for our dear leader :P

(Then again, it does best with some Caster Levels to back it up! 4d6 Con drain in an AoE? Sign me up!)

The interesting part is when you add a lesser rod of metamagic(maximize) to the equation.

If you peek under spoilers without making the check, at least don't give things away -_-

Oops, sorry!

@Nissim: No real way to enforce it, except threatening draconic punishments if I catch you doing so. And that's not my style. I think I told Boros in the very beginning(when he didn't know), but actually, I don't want you to peek for your own enjoyment- because it's a lot easier to act natural when you don't have to split "what you know" and "what character knows".
Also, I WILL mess with you guys if I feel you are continously doing this. Yay Meta.(you know, that thing where as GM you pass a little note reading "Look at this note for a good 20 seconds. Do not tell anybody about what is written. Roll a D20 every time the cleric says something in-character and stare at his player, claiming there's no reason you do either.")

^_^
@Miranda: (Also, the Madame very much appreciates small-folk assets. But going back to the cleric from earlier: Being glamoured by magic could well be a way to try and fake an ID, to get into places you're too young for, and drink stuff that would put hair on the breast of a gillman. not that there's very strict laws for any of that in place)

Yah that makes a bit of sense, but still; being called 'lad' hurt Miranda a little :P

(Also I think I know why her eyes are blue! Permission to speculate :D)?

Note: Just I that are having serious trouble posting?

"There was an issue bla bla administrator contacted blah blah" - a new one. Usually it justs explodes or launch you to that goblin page ...

My bad. I messed up...the word I was looking for was "lass". I think you figured out I'm not a native speaker by now. I'm confident that I generally do pretty well, but those kinds of mistakes will occur now and then.

It was meant to be "small-framed lass", not lad -_-
Also, feel free to speculate, would be interesting to hear-(unless you guess the real reason, then it's not THAT interesting ;) )

Additionally: No problems with paizo currently, for me. But it does seem I had goblin-days when everybody else could post without problems, or can conveniently post when other people have issues.

My bad. I messed up...the word I was looking for was "lass". I think you figured out I'm not a native speaker by now. I'm confident that I generally do pretty well, but those kinds of mistakes will occur now and then.

It was meant to be "small-framed lass", not lad -_-

No worries on that point, you're doing a better job with the language than some native speakers I know :D.

Besides, for an error, it was a rather amusing one. I can see Miranda sulking, checking herself out, and muttering just barely loud enough to be heard about how she's not a lad and how could anyone with eyes even make that mistake and there's nothing wrong with being a bit small in certain areas, some people very much like that and just because she isn't built like a cow doesn't make her any less feminine and...

GM Mordred wrote:

My bad. I messed up...the word I was looking for was "lass". I think you figured out I'm not a native speaker by now. I'm confident that I generally do pretty well, but those kinds of mistakes will occur now and then.

It was meant to be "small-framed lass", not lad -_-

No worries on that point, you're doing a better job with the language than some native speakers I know :D.

Besides, for an error, it was a rather amusing one. I can see Miranda sulking, checking herself out, and muttering just barely loud enough to be heard about how she's not a lad and how could anyone with eyes even make that mistake and there's nothing wrong with being a bit small in certain areas, some people very much like that and just because she isn't built like a cow doesn't make her any less feminine and...

Yeah no worries. And I did imagine her mind going somewhere along Boros' train of thought :P

And it made an amusing situation out of nothing; so don't worry only Miranda the character was hurt. Lessah the player is simply entertained (and also a non-native speaker so you have my sympathies there!).

Also speculation; Arcane Sight. Yeah a bit boring but it fits. (But I don't recall exactly which glowing-eye colour corresponds to which so I guess it could be Detect Magic or Analyse Dweomer also ... )

I'm gonna roll a roll IC to see if it was only Lessah the player that knew that or if Miranda the character also knows :P

@Boros: Also look at Bonded Mind. It's a favorite in some ways, though it's much better for something like a Hunter, and possibly an Inquisitor (depending on GM's interpretation of it + Solo Tactics).

@Miranda: Nope. Betrayal feats explicitly call out that sharing them doesn't teach your allies to be the victim. Taking the feat gives your allies permission to use you for bad things. Being given the feat does not. :)

@Eyes: (Permanent) Arcane Sight. :) It glows blue. :)

I used the exact same effect on Chrisali (or however you spell it), and shifted her to being Archon-blooded, which meant 90% of her shop that -wasn't- a book glowed. :)

@Everything: If I responded to something already addressed I left it, because I'm trying to catch up and not wasting time erasing stuff I worked hard to write. So there!

Bonded Mind is awesome, though it's best with a caster taking the additional feats so they can treat others as their familiar/animal companion, otherwise we're only emulating a level 0 spell...

Additionally, the restrictions of Bonded Mind are different then Message. Bonded Mind actually requires you to see the other person, which naturally means if you are sneaking around, and roll well, you may lose the benefits, Whereas Message you need to keep close to each other, but not in direct view, as it can go around corners and even through some walls and most doors.

Message also can be overheard, while Bonded Mind cannot. :)

In addition, no shared language necessary.

You are both boring. So yeah, out of character, it is Arcane Bond(and yeah, she got it permanencied.) It's glowly blue and it really helps with the kind of business she's dealing with.

It also explains why she picked apart the dweomer so quickly! :)

Guessing Enchantment (Compulsion) is a good way to get thrown out, eh? :P

Sorry for being boring, it's just one of the more neat spells to just -have-.

It also explains why she picked apart the dweomer so quickly! :)

That was a rather good hint. And it clearly wasn't True Seeing >.>

Sorry for being boring - we'll make sure to include some more outlandish theories next time : )

Message also can be overheard, while Bonded Mind cannot. :)

In addition, no shared language necessary.

It's basically psudeo-telepathy, but the no shared language is the most awesome part, as it means it works on things incapable of speaking Common, such as familiars and animal companions at least that is my interpretation. it certainly has it's uses, such as blatantly discussing strategy on how to deal with someone while right next to them, but there are times when Message is strictly better, mainly when utilizing stealth or scouting.

If it makes you feel better, I had no idea what the blue eyes were. I was going to do a Knowledge (planes) check until you all spilled the beans!

Also, Bonded Mind is the key feat in an idea I had for the next character I build for this campaign! (You can see how optimistic I am about this sort of thing.) I was thinking that if we hit level 3, I could gestalt an Inquisitor with some other class, and then play a character who had his/her tongue cut off by Thrune, but whose God performed a miracle to allow communication. That doesn't quite solve the problem of verbal components to spells (so the Inquisitor spell list becomes veeeery limited), but that's why the character's main class would be a non-caster.

Bonded Mind also gets rid of some of the downsides of a few Oracle curses, mainly Deaf and Tongues, assuming your party takes the feat.

Enchantment(Compulsion) is a good way to be dispelled, followed by optionally pressing charges.
Polymorph or Illusion-spells also raise an eyebrow. While not uncommon, it's made sure their company knows such a spell is in place.(wouldn't want someone to fake being your lover would you? plus and/or age checks for small folk...)

@Varuzhan: Juliette already suggestes Deaf Curse which would cover spellcasting ;) but don't be THAT pessimistic-
Also, you can still roll planes if you want :) You never know what you learn.

@Bonded Mind: Also, at around that time, technically, this comes around, too, (Level 9 for Witch)...so that's one thing to consider, too.