It's good to be home.
Are you home-home? Like back in the USA?
Yup. Back in Oregon where I belong. :)
Nice. Welcome home.
Now populate your wishlist so we can buy you a Christmas present!
That reminds me--I really need to work on my Christmas list...
And welcome home! :)
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Lemme just put this bluntly:
KC, you're the best GM I've ever had. :)
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Thanks, that means a lot. You all are some of the best players I could have hoped for. Everyone posts regularly, everyone tries to avoid the sort of out-of-character drama I've seen in other PbPs, and best of all, we have seven kickass main characters who all work great off each other.
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And in Carina and Tanith's case, ON each other too.
Zing!
You know, I actually kind of wish Erip hadn't died. It would have been interesting to see how interactions with Filge might have varied if an active necromancer was in the party.
This is definitely one of my favorite games of all time, thanks KC!
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I was just looking at KC's new, expansive map of Oerik today and honestly it's pretty likely that Farrukh would've gone through Greyhawk on his way to Diamond Lake. Those two are in like a straight line with Ket. But I feel like all of us have been in Greyhawk long enough now to be able to make Knowledge (local) checks fine . . .
Incidentally I was reminding myself who in the group has ranks in that skill and noticed that Carina's got Knowledge (nobility). Kinda silly but now I'm imagining her being really into princess stories when she was young. Not the ones you find in a nursery room, though - she was into the really heavy and sometimes boring ones you find in history books.
Yep. :)
Probably relevant:
James Jacobs and Sean Reynolds have chimed in that a paladin's immunity to disease doesn't apply against Kyuss worms.Yes. Kyuss worms may have a flavor similar to a disease, but the mechanic they use in game is very different than those used for diseases. The spell remove disease can certainly help with a Kyuss worm infestation, but then, so can neutralize poison and several other spells. Immunity to disease does not grant immunity to Kyuss worm infestation.
Hoping everyone's having happy holidays! :)
Happy holidays, everyone!
Let me know if there are any buffs or bonuses I forgot about—it gets hard to keep them straight while also tracking what the NPCs are doing.
Also, important to note—it's never really come up before, but I've been house-ruling away the "Perception 20 to sense an invisible's presence". I've never really liked that whether or not you're detected is totally out of your hands. I may just say that general detection checks ignore the invisibility bonuses. Makes more sense, anyways.
It's likely that this will benefit the party more than monsters, considering your tactics (I've never enforced the rule with Eben and Astraden, for the record, though largely by mistake), so I don't expect this to raise too many complaints. Though it may still, considering the nature of the encounter which prompted me to make the house rule. :P
I doubt it will help us much if at all. Monsters are much more likely to have special senses, be it Tremorsense, Blindsense. Blindsight, See Invisibility constant. True Seeing constant, Scent, or other nonstandard abilities that make Invisibility dubious in value, if not worthless.
Houseruling away the ability to detect invisible presences (in the same breath as introducing a roomful of invisible creatures I would otherwise have detected, I might add) basically says "Magic or f+&$ off".
Monsters are much more likely to have special senses, be it Tremorsense, Blindsense. Blindsight, See Invisibility constant. True Seeing constant, Scent, or other nonstandard abilities that make Invisibility dubious in value, if not worthless.
And PCs are much more likely to have access to See Invisibility, Dispel Magic, and magic items that can handle invisibility with ease. Also, the number of monsters you've faced throughout these four modules that have had ways to "see" past Invisibility can probably be counted on my fingers. You're overestimating the prevalence of those abilities.
I'm not taking away the ability to detect invisible presences, either. I'm taking away the illogical inability of invisible characters to try to avoid being detected. DC 20 is ridiculously easy—as you yourself just acknowledged. Using the creatures' Stealth check-sans-invisibility-modifiers makes more sense, anyways, and also gives the stealther an actual chance at gaining the strategic element of surprise.
And yes, this house rule is being brought in at the same time as the encounter with invisible creatures. The fact is that house rules can't all be created at the start—some are made as the issues come up, like the majority of items that are already on the House Rules Document were. Besides which, like I pointed out, this particular house rule has effectively been in play for the entire campaign. I'm just making it official now. I never liked the rule and never nitpicked it in the past when it was Farrukh or Eben going around in Stealth Mode.
While I wouldn't normally have given Farrukh a chance to notice the invisible creatures if they were just holding still, I also wouldn't rule away the ability to detect what square they are in using perception after we know they are there. They still have the benefits of total concealment.
/2cents
(in the same breath as introducing a roomful of invisible creatures I would otherwise have detected, I might add)
I'm also not fond of this implication that I'm motivated to benefit my encounters rather than my game. This is the first time in the entire campaign that invisibility has played a "visible" role in what I'm running. Of course I'm going to take a more active look at the rules involved.
While I wouldn't normally have given Farrukh a chance to notice the invisible creatures if they were just holding still, I also wouldn't rule away the ability to detect what square they are in using perception after we know they are there. They still have the benefits of total concealment.
Don't worry, that's still fully an option. In fact, I'm generally inclined to give certain information automatically—for instance, any invisible creature that comes within five feet will automatically trigger a Perception check. That almost came into play this round, but I decided to go with a Full Attack instead of another Bull Rush.
I've been busy drinking and watching Netflix and I'm not sure I'm grasping the situation and the discussion.
These things full attacked while invisible. Shouldn't we be aware of which square they're attacking from at least?
They're attacking from Reach, so no. You know what direction they're coming from. That much isn't any house rule.
So what are our non-magical options for at least detecting their squares?
See Invisibility is personal only, and only Greater Dispel would work since targeted spells don't work on invisible creatures. And still does nothing to contradict what I said: Magic or f*#% off.
Regardless of that, it's not the rule I take particular issue with (I use a variant myself for one game), it's the way it came up. It's kinda like houseruling you need Trapfinding to even detect magical traps as you're explaining how someone gets hit in the face with one because of it.
In this specific case, these guys' stealth must be godlike sans Invis, since I said previously I was searching every room as carefully as possible before entering, which would mean a result somewhere between 28 and 37 (30 and 39, if we are in fact underground right now) turned up bupkiss?
Tanith: Same as normal—spend a move action to look and listen. Fighting invisible enemies without magic is kind of rough. Always has been. I'm actually making it a good deal less rough, since I'm effectively ruling that they can't move adjacent to anyone without getting spotted.
In this specific case, these guys' stealth must be godlike sans Invis, since I said previously I was searching every room as carefully as possible before entering, which would mean a result somewhere between 28 and 37 (30 and 39, if we are in fact underground right now) turned up bupkiss?
Sorry, I don't recall you saying that. I recall you saying you searched every door. In another room, a while ago. You did indicate a pattern, but you never said you searched this room in particular, and that's something you really need to do—it's honestly not my job to remember your character's habits.
And you can't Take 20 on an entire room without doing more than standing in the doorway and cocking your head. That's just not how I interpret it at all.
Finally, had you stopped and started listening around for no particular reason, had things progressed in spite of all the previous statements, it's rather likely the monsters would have figured they'd been found out and attacked you immediately. It likely would have been a less dangerous encounter, but there still would have been an encounter. You probably would have just been grabbed instead.
And if we spend a move action to look and listen does the DC 20 option come back or are opposing stealth checks?
The DC 20 option is (and always has been) only to be aware that there is something invisible in the area somewhere, and, uh, good news! You know that now! ;P
So, yeah, opposing checks.
And I'm going to repeat, since I know this encounter isn't going to make people very happy: The only change to the rules I've made (that doesn't directly and immediately benefit the party) is that the monsters got a surprise round on you. Other than that, this encounter has the exact same APL disparity that the 3.5 one possessed.
So if we spend a move action we can make an opposed check which is going to be 20 (invisibility) + stealth bonus. Heh, that's not going to happen anytime soon.
I had assumed it would be clear that if I say I'm searching everything, that would be the end of it, since the "Aha! He forgot to say I search like he did in every other room, obviously he intended not to search this one because reasons" game gets old really quick.
And yes, I realize Take 20 won't work every time, which is why I mentioned I'd take 10 where I could not, to expedite matters somewhat so we didn't go through 3 days of posts like "So do you enter the room after unlocking it?" "Yes and I search it".
After a while it seems as though it could be assumed that my character, doing this for a living and having an IQ higher than 40, would at least give the room a cursory glance before entering.
I dunno. Perhaps this is irritating me more than it shouldl since it's so late. I'm going to bed.
I had assumed it would be clear that if I say I'm searching everything, that would be the end of it, since the "Aha! He forgot to say I search like he did in every other room, obviously he intended not to search this one because reasons" game gets old really quick.
Again, please stop accusing me of this crap. I don't like playing games like I'm on trial. I can't be expected to keep track of Farrukh's actions for you. Please just try and let me know what he does. I don't have space in my head to manage him for you, and I don't really want to have to retcon every time this happens.
Though there was nothing to indicate to Farrukh that a Take 20 wouldn't work other than hindsight, I actually rolled for the party. Farrukh didn't roll well. I didn't include the rolls in the post because it tends to arouse suspicion. In fact, this is roughly the fifth time in this installment I've completely held back something from the main thread. This is an installment very big on tricking the players as well as the characters, and I'd assumed everyone had enough basic trust in my integrity as a GM that I could get away with that without being accused of rigging the results. I'm sorry for my failure to put all cards on the table in this manner.
Pfft. I don't watch youtube links that aren't in HD.
As an aside, I would have posted the house rule a couple rooms back when I settled on it, but I knew it'd be a giveaway that you'd be fighting invisible creatures soon. I decided to hold off until the cat was out of the bag, since it wouldn't really make a difference.
Unless someone can honestly tell me that they said to themselves, "Well, maybe we should hold off, since there might be invisible dudes here. Oh, wait, that's only DC 20, I'd have seen that!" And considering nobody thought to try Perception checks, I don't think it's terribly likely they were thinking about invisible creatures. The timing comes off as tacky, and I'm sorry about that, but it didn't have tactical repercussions.
That's the last I'm going to say on this matter. Nobody seems to have a problem with the house rule itself so much as its timing, so I'm going to leave it for now.
I think the timing is the bigger issue.
The biggest implication in the long term is that invisible creatures are almost always getting a surprise round - which is ultimately probably fine.
I don't like house rules being introduced on the fly in general, but I'm willing to roll with it.
In other news, how was everyone's Christmas?
I'll try to avoid it being this short-notice in the future, but keep in mind that this is my first major campaign and I mostly just work out house rules as I find things that I don't like about the default. That said, I do recall that I normally try to give more warning than this. You (and Rynjin) are right, it's my bad.
My Christmas was great. Got a couple awesome Dungeon magazines and a few really good movies, then watched It's A Wonderful Life (speaking of really good movies). :)
My favorite Christmas movie's Die Hard.
I had evil Christmas with my Way of the Wicked group. We made a giant feast that included a pentagram saffron bun. I even sang a carol to Asmodeus. It was fun.
Unless someone can honestly tell me that they said to themselves, "Well, maybe we should hold off, since there might be invisible dudes here. Oh, wait, that's only DC 20, I'd have seen that!" And considering nobody thought to try Perception checks, I don't think it's terribly likely they were thinking about invisible creatures. The timing comes off as tacky, and I'm sorry about that, but it didn't have tactical repercussions.
The problem here is that it's usually a reactive check, so I would have had no reason to say "I'm searching for invisible creatures". With the exception of actively searching, Perception isn't an action.
I certainly wouldn't have gone for a bracing stroll over a narrow bridge above a pit of rusty swords had I gotten said check.
It made a big difference in this scenario, since the situation has gone from "Okay, there's invisible guys around" (and then they perhaps winning Initiative and pounding on me all at once) to me being jumped in the Surprise round, damaged, separated from the rest of the party, in a pit where my options are "Try to get back to the party and probably take damage every round doing and also get pounded on by invisible creatures I have no effective way of detecting" or "Stand still and hope they don't hit me" (again, though the first time was my fault).
But whatever. How deep is the water? And how far down am I off the top where everyone else is? And do I still have a hold of the rope?
The problem here is that it's usually a reactive check, so I would have had no reason to say "I'm searching for invisible creatures". With the exception of actively searching, Perception isn't an action.
Unless someone can honestly tell me that they said to themselves, "Well, maybe we should hold off, since there might be invisible dudes here. Oh, wait, that's only DC 20, I'd have seen that!" And considering nobody thought to try Perception checks, I don't think it's terribly likely they were thinking about invisible creatures. The timing comes off as tacky, and I'm sorry about that, but it didn't have tactical repercussions.
And like I said, I rolled for you. You didn't roll well. You didn't hear or see anything I didn't tell you.
But whatever. How deep is the water?And how far down am I off the top where everyone else is?And do I still have a hold of the rope?
It's five feet deep here (sorry, I thought I put that in the post), and gets deeper the further out you go. You still have the rope.
We should invest in some scrolls of glitterdust.
Yep. Definitely.
Maybe once we finish off this encounter we should go get some?
Maybe Astraden's godfather has some . . .
Happy BirChristNewYear, KC!