...has this AP been compared to Dark Souls at all?
Because that's the vibe I'm getting from it right now.
The monks are on the high end, yes, because they're monks. They're monks because they had to be able to fight unarmed and unarmored. This installment is very big on rogueish people with low HP, and with this group, those creatures don't last long if you get to hit on every attack.
Feel free to build around the "patterns" you're finding. Just don't be surprised if they don't prove as prominent as you think later on down the line. :P
As a sidenote, the doppelgangers also took the time to buff, because they're intelligent enemies, and you guys haven't exactly rushed through this dungeon. Not that I'm saying you should have, but think about the Hextorian temple. They're pretty organized. :P
And people call monks useless... XD
Pfft. Monks are great.
If Tanith were to pick up inspire ferocity would people use it? It lets you get an attack bonus at the cost of AC.
Going offline for a bit. Be back in a few hours.
I could perhaps make use of Inspire Ferocity. That being said, I'm not entirely sure I'd benefit too much from it--most of my normal attacks go for Touch AC.
Then again, it could cut down on friendly-fire incidents nicely.
And people call monks useless... XD
Monks make awesome NPCs. Takes a good bit of system mastery to make them good for PCs. My favorite class though.
As for AC, they're not too bad. 7th level Fighter does fine. 20 Str, +1 weapon, 7 BaB, Weapon Training 1. 65 percent to hit 20, 50 to hit 23. Not bad.
And Fighters don't even have the biggest attack boosts.
Throw in that most parties have buffs available (we're under par in that regard lacking Haste, or Inspire Courage and the like) and a 23 to 25 AC is very reasonable.
Assuming a 20 strength is a big assumption. The math of the game is built around 15 point buy.
What did you want to do with your stay bump Gark?
I'm at a funeral so no posts for the next few hours.
Regarding Haste...
I think I'm going to try and look for a wand of Haste once we're done here. It'll make future encounters that much easier.
Assuming a 20 strength is a big assumption. The math of the game is built around 15 point buy.
The math of the game is also built around the assumption of stat belts. W 16 + 2 racial +2 belt is hardly far fetched.
Meanwhile in the land of not-bleeding edge optimization...
It's a pretty big assumption for 15 point buy.
This is doing an adequate job of distracting me from the otherwise awkward pre-funeral family gathering.
My condolences. :(
It was my great aunt. She's been really sick for years.
I'm just glad she's not suffering anymore.
Sorry about your aunt. Are you having the funeral at night? Or are our timezones that different?
Meanwhile in the land of not-bleeding edge optimization...
It's a pretty big assumption for 15 point buy.
Not really bleeding edge optimization to assume your main stat will be the highest. Hell, in Gark's game I managed a 20+ Dex on a 15 Point Buy pretty easy at 9th, with only a +2 Dex belt.
Easy to do with Str too. 16 12 14 12 10 7 or 16 12 14 10 10 8 or the like are perfectly valid.
I have to agree with Farrukh on this one. Look at PFS pregens, at level 4 many of them have a stat in the low 20s. The level 7 ones definitely do.
The bleeding edge of "optimization" or just min-maxing is someone like this dude. He's 15 point buy.
Also, haven't read the gameplay thread yet, but apparently I'm dead :(
Okay. I don't want to be raised. It's a massive waste of money.
We've already got Tanith running around naked at 7th level, and we're going lose 5k or whatever to get Astraden back. We were already behind from rezzing Carina too. Part of the reason we're dying so much is probably because most of the party has somewhat crappy gear.
Another thing is Cuetzpalli wouldn't want to come back. Astraden's gone, and he finally doesn't have to worry about being in pain and suffering constantly. He payed his dues as far as he's concerned. He'd much rather stay in Kord paradise.
I'd much rather just bring in a new PC. I have plenty of creativity, and I hate the death as a money sink thing.
Any chance someone could awaken Spiny, and I could play an intelligent Spiny as my PC?
Apparently my bestiary is defective. It shows CR 6 monsters as hovering around 18-19 AC. Some are as low as 15 or 16. I've found exactly one at 20. I'm not saying it's impossible or unreasonable. It's just unusually high.
***
The service was at a Jehovah's Witness church which was... Interesting.
I'm curious how far behind average WBL we are. Can everyone do a quick audit?
And people call monks useless... XDMonks make awesome NPCs. Takes a good bit of system mastery to make them good for PCs. My favorite class though.
Really? I never would have guessed. ;)
Regarding Haste...
I think I'm going to try and look for a wand of Haste once we're done here
Gee, with that kinda money...why, you could go to Disneyland.
I'm curious how far behind average WBL we are. Can everyone do a quick audit?
That would be helpful. It's hard to keep things level, considering the larger party, so every now and then a reminder comes in handy.
Keep in mind that Action Points are basically really good magic items, though. :P
Apparently my bestiary is defective. It shows CR 6 monsters as hovering around 18-19 AC. Some are as low as 15 or 16. I've found exactly one at 20. I'm not saying it's impossible or unreasonable. It's just unusually high.
Try here. Xill, xorn, young white dragon, will o' wisp (well, yeah...), kyton, lamia, anklyosaurus and bralani azata all have ACs 20 and up. Of those, five have ACs above 20.
The will o' wisp has a 26 AC. That is my bar for "nutso"—an AC that you have to roll a 15+ to hit. They're also immune to magic. I'm kinda disappointed there aren't any in this AP, since I've always wanted to run one, but it's almost certainly for the best. :P
Okay. I don't want to be raised. It's a massive waste of money.
We've already got Tanith running around naked at 7th level, and we're going lose 5k or whatever to get Astraden back. We were already behind from rezzing Carina too. Part of the reason we're dying so much is probably because most of the party has somewhat crappy gear.
Another thing is Cuetzpalli wouldn't want to come back. Astraden's gone, and he finally doesn't have to worry about being in pain and suffering constantly. He payed his dues as far as he's concerned. He'd much rather stay in Kord paradise.
I'd much rather just bring in a new PC. I have plenty of creativity, and I hate the death as a money sink thing.
Okay, it's your call. In the meantime, I'm running a brief sequence on Ysgard for Cuetzpalli so you'll have something to do (Gark'll get something soon, too). Feel free to roleplay there.
Spiny getting awakened is an interesting idea. I'll look into options on that front—see if I can find a way to do it that's not too hokey. It is Greyhawk, after all. Crazier things have happened.
Good idea, Tanith.
And yes, the bestiary is like that. But, in actual play, that's not usually how it goes. Most of the time monsters are either modified in some way, have a lot of numbers, or be 2-4 CRs higher than the party. Otherwise it's too easy. One CR 6 critter does not a challenging encounter for a seven man party make.
Cuetzpalli I think had some of the best gear in the party. He has between 23,000-24,000 GP in items. Which is right on for 7th level at 23,500 gp.
Hmm. How much do the rest of you have?
Eben comes out to about 22,500 gp, including the expendables Ixiaxian just expended. Not including the gold that Ixiaxian has been happily spending frivolously over the past game day, but I think that's less than 100 gp damage overall. Eben might be slightly better off than everyone else since he didn't join until after Carina died and the party had alreayd pooled their cash for a reincarnation. And since he was created at... 3rd? 4th? level, he was created right at his accurate WBL for that point, which put him slightly ahead of the rest of the party, as I recall.
There's also assorted stuff hanging out in the group 'keep' slush pile- potions of healing, the rope of climbing, a talisman of the sphere, etc.
Apparently my bestiary is defective. It shows CR 6 monsters as hovering around 18-19 AC. Some are as low as 15 or 16. I've found exactly one at 20. I'm not saying it's impossible or unreasonable. It's just unusually high.
May want to look at the NPC codex more, since while these guys are "monsters" they're relying mostly on class levels.
For example, the "Harrying Brute", a Human Monk 7 has a 20 AC. Likewise the Hoy Warrior (Paladin 7) has a 20 AC, and the "Spell Hunter" (Fighter 7) has a 22.
As for Farrukh's wealth, he's sitting around 22495 gp in items, with ~2300 gp in cash, slightly over the level 7 WBL of 23500.
Though, the majority of his wealth is tied up in utility items (a whopping 10,500 gp between the Boots of Striding and Springing, Eyes of the Eagle, and Goggles of Minute Seeing, roughly half his wealth).
So Farrukh's behind on the "Big 6" sort of items, but not by wealth as a whole. He's not particularly gear dependent anyway.
Regarding Haste...
I think I'm going to try and look for a wand of Haste once we're done here. It'll make future encounters that much easier.
That is 13, 500 gp in wand. In the long run, it'll actually make encounters HARDER, since we'll have sunk so much cash into it.
Buying Eben a Page of Spell Knowledge (3) for 9k is both more cost effective, and more effective in general, since we'd be at 7 rounds per casting and counting instead of 5 rounds (never scaling), for more cost.
Or you could both just take a look at Eben's level 3 spell selections. :-)
Meh. Never pays to assume somebody will take what you want. =p
Keep in mind, I have no idea what CR the members of the doppleparty are. I'm just guessing. Eight classed dopplegangers at CR 6 sounds about right.
Tanith's at ~12.8k.
Amulet +1 - 4k
Headband +2 - 4k
masterwork weapon - 300
cloak +1 - 1k
armbands 500
extend rod - 3k
Carina's got her super-duper awesome mithral shirt and not much else besides masterworks, mostly.
There's also the dodgy potions from the last adventure, but I wouldn't recommend using those. I've still got the Faceless One's spellbook too!
monster creation chart shows what the averages for each CR are intended to be. Yeah, CR 6 is 19. In actual practice that comes out a bit low usually, especially with buffs and such.
So Cuetz, Eben and Farrukh are at WBL while Tanith is at half WBL and Carina is at like...1/4?
Tanith's AC is too low. I know he wants to be naked or whatever, but he's going to get hit on a 5+ by the high attack of a CR 6 monster. That's 80% of the time :/
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Oh- to clarify. Eben's 7th-level-up is actually into Bard, NOT fighter. That was just a ruse so nobody would say 'hey, why aren't you casting those 3rd level spells?'
Sorry to completely ignore your kind advice on marital dipping, Rynjin, but I didn't want to get bogged down into making a bunch of barely-plausible excuses as to why I HAD to be a fighter, dammit!
That said, I'm still planning a marital dip in 2 levels. More to be said on that later, but it might also fill the void Eben leaves in not having inspire courage.
Anyhow, Eben's real level up-
+5 hp
+1 BAB
+1 Escape Artist
+1 Linguistics (Flan)
+1 Perception
+1 Perform (Act)
+1 Perform (Oratory)
+1 Sleight of Hand
+1 UMD
Favored Class Bonus: + 1 2nd level spell known, used to buy the 'Dance of 23 Steps' Masterpiece instead.
+2 rounds per day performance.
3rd level spells known- haste, good hope.
new feat... pending.
Hey, it still worked. :)
Maybe bracers of armor? Or a suit of magical armor reflavored to be like some leather straps, with the actual armor plates made of see-through force barriers (magical glass) or something. Then we could admire Tanith's pectorals, and keep him alive? (0_o)
Tanith's AC isn't actually that bad. With mage armor up (which he has potions of) and bull's strength he's 23.
True... but it could easily be 25 or 26. If you can you add your strength to AC when wearing armor that is.
Could Gark or WW pick up playing as Filge?
Just an idea. =P
There's also glamored armor. I seem to recall seeing a couple in this dungeon, actually...
How heavy is the armour?
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Now, to be fair, awakening Spiny only costs 1,000 gp less than raising & restorationing Cuetz, but the possibility of a walking talking dinosaur is... too awesome to ignore.
Carina's got her super-duper awesome mithral shirt and not much else besides masterworks, mostly.
There's also the dodgy potions from the last adventure, but I wouldn't recommend using those. I've still got the Faceless One's spellbook too!
Speaking of those (I'm assuming we never identified them), I remembered recently you can identify potions by taste (that is, with the Perception skill).
So, hand 'em to me from now on. =)
As for Tanith's AC, Bracers of Armor are a decent option. Though, he has access to the Cleric list.
Meaning, if nothing else, next level he should be casting Magic Vestment on his pants every day. =)
And Shield of Faith.
With Mage Armor and Shield of Faith his AC should be decent enough.
Oh, and Bull's Strength. And Owl's Wisdom. Both will raise his AC by 2 if I'm not mistaken.
Now, to be fair, awakening Spiny only costs 1,000 gp less than raising & restorationing Cuetz, but the possibility of a walking talking dinosaur is... too awesome to ignore.
One of my players trained his velociraptor to pick locks.
This is orders of magnitude cooler than that. And that was pretty cool.
Could Gark or WW pick up playing as Filge?
Just an idea. =P
Thought about that. Filge is third level. He'd be pretty much redundant.
Well a third level level necromancer(?) is better off than no necromancer.
Thought about that. Filge is third level. He'd be pretty much redundant.Could Gark or WW pick up playing as Filge?
Just an idea. =P
Hey, it's been as long since the Whispering Cairn for him as it has for the rest of the group. He could get a level-up or three if either of them wanted the necromantic weasel as a placeholder PC, right?
Now, to be fair, awakening Spiny only costs 1,000 gp less than raising & restorationing Cuetz, but the possibility of a walking talking dinosaur is... too awesome to ignore.
I think it's actually...let's see.
Restoration (2,540) and raise dead (5,450) add up to 7,990.
Awaken (2,450) is...a lot less.
Oh, right. I was stuck on the price for reincarnate, for some reason.
Well a third level level necromancer(?) is better off than no necromancer.
Until he dies and then is no necromancer anyways. ;)
I'm thinking about leveling him up, though.
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[...]
Sorry to completely ignore your kind advice on marital dipping, Rynjin, but I didn't want to get bogged down into making a bunch of barely-plausible excuses as to why I HAD to be a fighter, dammit!
That said, I'm still planning a marital dip in 2 levels.
0_0
As long as your partners agree to it . . .
Moral quandary time! Are we under any kind of group obligation to consider raising Gattel?
Speaking of those (I'm assuming we never identified them), I remembered recently you can identify potions by taste (that is, with the Perception skill).
We did. They're on my profile.
So, hand 'em to me from now on. =)
I can ID them with Craft (Alchemy) just fine.
*Rimshot*