Hi everyone,
I did some reading here and I'd be interested in participating. A quick guide to using the necessary tools would be appreciated though (I have no idea how you rolled in your fights).
Even though I am no seriously experienced PF player I like to try to break rule systems. Like a secret passage leading into the mystic elevator while playing "Betrayal at House on the Hill" :)
My first thought was building a drow noble but I see that's not allowed :(
Regards,
Niko
Maybe it was supposed to be wink.
Man, no MSPA/Homestuck readers here, huh? :/
TG: i will take what u say
TG: underd serisous advicement...,
TG: *WONK* ~_?
It's kind of a running gag.
Anyway, let's see. I'll keep Kyrian and Rix out of the lineup, since I'm not sure the races are gonna be allowed, so I've got:
Aros level 2 and level 5
Jack level 2 and level 5
Fyros level 2 and level 5
and Fyren, just level 5.
They might need once overs to make sure I've got all their stats finalized at the appropriate levels, but their builds are laid out to 20 (except Fyren, I think), so it should be easy enough to figure the appropriate level. So yeah, they're all available.
Hey Niko
The fights were randomly generated by the Arbitor (Jehova). He announces who fights whom. Recently he's been busy (becoming undead, we suspect) so we don't have many active fights, but that'll change soon.
If you want to join simply follow the character creation guidelines in the first post and PM your character sheet to Jehova. He'll assign your fights.
Most of us keep our character's stat blocks under a universal catch-all alias to minimize alias bloat, but this isnt necessary.
-Choon
I know, I've made way too many already. They all seem like they'd be fun to play though! :P
Thanks Choon!
I have some more questions:
Do you know what the light level of the arena is?
What happens if a bond of any kind gets destroyed during combat, do you loose the gold to replace it?
Hmm... the wealth thing seems to have some tricky implications. Especially at earlier levels onetime use items seem to be the way to go. Simply because you cannot loose wealth for a potion you already quaffed. Do you have to unlearn wizard spells? If yes, can you change them every fight (like a permanent item)? What about sundered items?
(sorry for those jerky rules questions, but since this is testing I hope you get something out of it)
Consumables, after being used, do count against your WBL. That means if you're quaffing potions, your minimum wealth gets continually lower. So, it's not exactly keeping your money safe, per se.
Unlearning wizard spells... I'm not really sure about that.
You can change between the spells you know, but not as just preparing specifically for certain opponents. You need to have a default list of spells prepared. You can change this, but not after being matched up with an opponent.
Sundered items, I think, count against WBL the same way consumables do (if I recall hearing destroyed items were... well, destroyed). Otherwise, items that are just broken I think get repaired, if I recall correctly.
I'm not sure about companions/familiars needing to be replaced, or if they get fixed with your character after a battle (hoping for the latter...)
And hey, it's good to see the rules ironed out, imo. It is what the testing phase is for :P
Oh, I thought that you cannot drop below a certain minimum wealth (because I could just recreate the character). So I thought if I go for a potion in my first fight and loose I will have the same starting gold.
I somehow dislike sundered items to be gone forever. Because even a viable build that wins a lot could be at a disadvantage if getting paired with a lot of sunder builds. I think you should only loose something if you consume it or loose the fight.
I think mechanically bonds can be regarded as permanent items (even the living ones).
I don't think sundered items should be held against the player... likewise slain familiars/companions/eidelons.
Then again, I'm not really a fan of how used consumables are held against the character's gold total. I think it favors casters in the long run.
Then again, I'm not really a fan of how used consumables are held against the character's gold total. I think it favors casters in the long run.
Hmm... I hadn't really thought of that. You might be right though, their items could start adding up.
I wonder if there's a way we could have consumables expenditure below a certain threshold just be lumped into a 'negligible' category.
Example: Say you can only hold consumables up to a total 5% of your minimum wealth (still counts against your limit if you have them on you), but after being used, they no longer apply (though a character might still need to win the spent gold back afterwards, so they can't just use them, and if they lose the match, go get the same thing).
This can also help prevent abusing high cost consumables. At the point where they can be considered negligible cost, they're unlikely to swing the battle on their own. Might also make bookkeeping a lot easier :P
Dunno, there's a thought for how something like that might work.
Then again, I'm not really a fan of how used consumables are held against the character's gold total. I think it favors casters in the long run.Hmm... I hadn't really thought of that. You might be right though, their items could start adding up.
I wonder if there's a way we could have consumables expenditure below a certain threshold just be lumped into a 'negligible' category.
Example: Say you can only hold consumables up to a total 5% of your minimum wealth (still counts against your limit if you have them on you), but after being used, they no longer apply (though a character might still need to win the spent gold back afterwards, so they can't just use them, and if they lose the match, go get the same thing).
This can also help prevent abusing high cost consumables. At the point where they can be considered negligible cost, they're unlikely to swing the battle on their own. Might also make bookkeeping a lot easier :P
Dunno, there's a thought for how something like that might work.
I like that idea. It somehow represents that a build relying on high cost consumables every fight would not really be fit for adventuring.
You could also use the wealth you would get for a fight at your level as limit.One thing about the living bonds: Not having to pay for their replacement would allow them to be abused as charge blockers (may not be desirable). But on the other hand it would be unfair if they had to be replaced while bonded items did not.
In this arena charging usually = death. I don't see using a companion as a charge blocker as abusive because you will be guaranteed to loose your companion.
It's still your companion and not you, buying you a second standard action for save or loose (especially at earlier levels) :)
I thought it might be kind of abusive because normally you would not use a tactic that costs your companion every combat (or you would not have a companion every combat). On the other hand it seems like charger builds are strong enough.[edit]I'm just exploring possible implications here, I personally think familiars should work that way.
I'd ban programmed image under the current rules btw, seems like too much pun (considering pre combat buffs are allowed if duration>24h) :)
That's actually one of the first ways I'd use it if they came back after every death.
Though i think that's exactly how it should work.
I think on the low level consumables front we agreed that since you're sitting at level 1 (level 2 now) with no VP or wealth so far gained, that it wasn't a big deal to have infinite consumables until you win a match. I am alright with putting a cap on consumable percentage of price, but I also like allowing as much freedom for wonky strategies as possible. I'm not sure why the consumables rule benefits casters more than martials (they don't need wands, I guess?). The consumables rules were put in place to try to limit abuse, because they can very much swing fights if properly used, and I'd prefer more focus on class features than items. I did still want to let people blow all their cash on crazy consumable tactics if they like, though... An automatically refunded amount of consumables might be good, especially for ammo-using characters, and for bookkeeping, yeah :P
Since animal companions or familiars are resurrectable, they pop back alive after each match the same way as players. We could allow a similar rule for sundered objects also to prevent abuse by breaker builds, and say that any object destroyed by the opponent returns unharmed. We'd need to rule for corner cases though (what happens if you get Dominated and they make you snap the arrows in your quiver?) Animal companions etc. are certainly useable and useful as charge blockers. The arena is a situation in which you come back to life after each death automatically, so the tactics are certainly more risky (and hopefully more exciting) than they would be during a normal adventure.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'unlearn wizard spells', since they're stored in a spellbook. You can swap your prepared spells between matches (but not after pairing), as well as spend money on scribing new spells into the book (this counts as consumable purchase though, for now uses the PFS rules of scribing at scroll costs).
Off to work again, I shall try to pop up a fight or three (at least one team) when I get there.
I'm not sure why the consumables rule benefits casters more than martials (they don't need wands, I guess?).
Here's my line of thinking. I'm open to being wrong, though, and I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this.
I'm gonna be talking about two different groups. Supernatural gladiators and Mundane gladiators. For the purposes of this discussion, Supernatural glad's gain class abilities that allow them to do anything that is.. well.. supernatural. Spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, etc. Mundane glad's are the opposite. They rely on a simpler set of abilities. Their bab, weapon and armor proficiencies, feats and training, skills-use, etc. So fighters and rogues are Mundane while Wizards, Druids, Paladins and (in some cases) Monks are Supernatural… some classes straddle the line and it's determined by the specific build and archetype choices.
Now, that being established.
Supernatural glad's, by the very nature of their concept, gain access to abilities that allow them to step outside of the natural order of things. From the get-go, Wizards, Sorcs, Bards and Magus's can vanish from the battlefield, if only for a short stint, allowing them to control their opponent's ability to attack. By level 3, options of those classes broadens. And they find themselves able to bring a wider array of powers against thier opponents. Darkness, Mirror Image, Glitterdust, etc. This trend continues as they advance. A snowball rolling down a hill.
And, if their opponent doesn't' have resources to counter these combat-control options, they are more and more at the whim of the decisions and actions of the Supernatural glad. The Mundane's best option is to try to blow them up before the Supernatural can get his control tactics in place… which is why you'll generally see casters super-tweaking their initiative score and having one or two "OH SH!T" options in their arsenal. Vanish, Obscuring Mist, etc.
The most efficient way the Mundane can counter these is through consumables (potions and – to a lesser extent – wands and scrolls accessible through UMD). Suddenly he can negate the Illusionist's Vanishing trick. Or he can begin tossing Alchemist's fire into the big pool of mist in which the sniper is hiding.
It may be a bit of a gamble for the Supernaturals for the first few levels when facing Mundanes, but they have a solid chance of their best tactics disabling their opponent (if built appropriately), which advances them into levels where they have more and more options that are more and more difficult for the Mundane to counter solely by their class abilities.
The Supernatural might need or want a few consumables through the early levels (when the penalty for using them is arguably lower because they can always re-roll the character completely under a new name and re-enter), while the Mundane will become more and more taxed as he fights higher-level Supernaturals. The Supernatural has less and less need of the consumables as they get more expensive, while the Mundane becomes more and more dependent on them.
The wealth disparity, I fear, will become crippling on anyone who's not some flavor of Supernatural.
I'm not a fan of that at all.
The consumables rules were put in place to try to limit abuse, because they can very much swing fights if properly used, and I'd prefer more focus on class features than items.
I agree that they can greatly affect fights, and I like your emphasis on class abilities. Unfortunately, the nature of class abilities is imbalanced. Do any number of searches on the Caster Martial Disparity. It's inherent in the system. (I"m sure we all know this, but I see this as the heart of the problem we're dealing with.)
My suggestion is to either embrace the role of consumables (as an equalizer) or leave them at the door. I'd suggest all or nothing. Well, that's not true, because I believe leaving them out altogether WAY benefits the Supernaturals… my reasoning is above.
So I'd suggest simply not penalizing the use of them at all. Let wealth levels be the limiter. Period. Consumables are generally expensive. 50g a pop is not paltry when you only have a couple hundred gold to use in the first place… but if it's the only way I can manage to counter what my opponent brings into the arena by way of their class features, I'll take the hit gladly.
Thoughts?
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Thought 1: Wow, that was well written. Did you type that up in word first?
Thought 2: I love well written essays...
Thought 3: oh, ya, feedback. *clears throat* I generally agree with your reasoning, but a voice in the back of my mind is conjuring images of Consumable- fueled death and hellfire from somewhere. I guess I fear a well-built character could be blown away by a high UMD score.
Thought 1: Wow, that was well written. Did you type that up in word first?
Thought 2: I love well written essays...
Thought 3: oh, ya, feedback. *clears throat* I generally agree with your reasoning, but a voice in the back of my mind is conjuring images of Consumable- fueled death and hellfire from somewhere. I guess I fear a well-built character could be blown away by a high UMD score.
I do most of my posts in a text editing program before I post it. I've had too many eaten posts.
And let me consider the UMD thing, but my thought on that is that's just another set of tools the gladiator would have to purchase. Wands aint cheap. Scrolls may be, but they're also limited by the caster level of the creator – and to boost that caster level, they have to shell out more cash.
It's a bit of an arms race, though, I'll admit.
a voice in the back of my mind is conjuring images of Consumable- fueled death and hellfire from somewhere. I guess I fear a well-built character could be blown away by a high UMD score.
That was kind of why I thought limiting the total of consumables as a percentage of your minimum cash to be helpful. With a 5% cap:
You'd need to be level 6 by the time you could get a 1st level wand and level 15 by the time you got a 3rd level wand.
Right off the bat however, you could purchase a 1st level potion. You could grab a 3rd level potion once you hit 6.
Scrolls are the most difficult to balance because, as you said, a high UMD score can allow for powering them, and they're relatively cheap. Still:
You'd be limited to 1st level scrolls at level 2.
At level 6, you can get a 4th level scroll, but would need a UMD check of 27 to activate it, or a caster level check if you're a class that could already use it.
At the high end, you can begin picking up 9th level scrolls when you reach level 11. A UMD check of 37 would be needed, along with a check for appropriate score if you don't have it, such as not having 19 Int for wizard spells. That would be a UMD check of 34.
If you do have the spell on your list, you'll only need a caster level check of 17 minimum, which means a 6 or higher, giving about a 1/4 chance of failing.
So, I can see that being a problem, but, much as 9th level spells are really good, at level 11 they won't necessarily blow a character out of the water in one go and they'll have a reasonable chance of failure even in the best circumstances.
I feel like it could work out alright, but I can't really say for sure.
*********
Also, I'm in agreement with what Eben says, that consumable costs begin to favor casters in the long run. Something really simple that I don't think was mentioned:
Flight becomes available to casters early on. Around 5-6 for a lot of them, a bit later for some others, etc.
Melee focused guys have two options on that. A potion of fly to use their favored method of combat, costing them 750 GP a pop, or pull out the bows, and start loosing ammo, which is a lot less costly admittedly but with enough arrows loosed... Either way, they're losing out at least a bit.
Ranged martials are fine, though they'll always be burning through some arrows anyway. Again, I know they're cheap as hell, but after enough fights, including losses, I could see it adding up.
Flight, and other spells, of course, generally won't cost the caster a single copper unless it's got some expensive material component.
Funny enough, by the numbers I've got above, martials could pick up potions of flight at level 6, right about when it comes into play for casters too.
Anyway, my random thoughts on the situation. Also, this post got long.
I will have a Viking Archetype Fighter soon if that is ok.
Also I need your initiative if you still want to participate in the AotG.
Macho, you gonna post in our team fight? :)
yes just got home from work will post.
assuming level 5
Yep. lvl 5.
So, it looks like Blarnaz is up first.
Man, I'm pretty psyched to see how this goes. Seems like it should be fun.
Agreed. I'll try to get a post up tonight... it can be difficult for me to post in the evenings, though.
Hell, I'm around here like all the time for some reason (or at least, I check around here pretty often). So, I won't call it obsessive :P
Hey, I said the same thing when everyone was all boasting in dwarven.
Mebbeh that's goin' outta style now. Orc is in this season :P
That I need some more experience with Resource dependent characters in PbPs. You?
That I need an internets-ruler. Seriously, I cant seem to follow distances to save my life.
Not sure what you mean by Distances...
I am the opposite...
i am the walrus
:D
I still post what Macho man is saying becuase he would say it anyway even if nobody can hear it.
So Jack is up in the team game, right?
And I'm fine if people speak when it's silent, as long as we play it realistically in terms of other people interpreting the soundless words. :)