Jaye's Carrion Crown (Inactive)

Game Master Jason Sonia

Ok, here is what I am considering. I know that everyone says that casters should never dip, but as the main melee character, I think that this works and only results in being a single level behind, similar to an Oracle or Sorcerer.

Druid(Mehir Savant) 4
--> Switch from Eagle to Wolf Domain --> gives Improved Trip as a bonus, gets some cool and useful spells.
--> Keep my familiar (DM will have to decide whether I keep the bonuses). Realistically, I will just have a pet owl. Getting a familiar as a divine caster is kind of strange anyway since you do not have the drawbacks that a Wizard or Witch would incur if the familiar died and as a druid there are far fewer touch spells that a familiar could be used for. I suppose taking Improved Familiar would boost the power, but that is one more feat that I do not have.

Level 5
Monk(Martial Artist) 1 - gets Improved Unarmed, Improved Grapple, and Stunning Fist as well as the Wisdom bonus to AC which will increase my AC in animal form and eliminate the need to find non-metallic armor.
Level 5 feat - Natural Spell (to be able to cast in wild shape)

Level 6-20 Druid (maybe 1 more monk at some point for another feat and evasion)

I also know that everyone says Animal Companions are the way to go, but I invariably forget about them and have never found running 2 characters (Animal Companion, Eidolon, Follower, etc) in a campaign not very exciting.

In the end, this will give me Improved Trip and Improved Grapple as well as a boost to AC and CMD all of which are very useful in animal form when using combat maneuvers.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, let me know. I think this stays with Alexa's outdoorsy nature and the wolf domain fits in well since there seem to be a lot of wolves in the Ustalav area.

Not an expert on Druid builds, but I like the switch to Wolf Domain. It makes sense thematically and more practical for combat if necessary. The dip into Monk I think works in that could be seen as a more feral combat style for the character.

Options for Valen:

1) Keep him straight cleric. With a new feat coming, I could:

a) Use it for more channeling or cleric feats
b) Use it on Weapon Focus to give him proficiency in Mace or Bow.

2) Add a level in Fighter. This would:

a) Add a bonus feat, which means I would have two feats to use at
this level - one combat oriented and one not.

b) Bolster hit points; class skills; and weapon/armor proficiency.

I don't think that with his strength and dex scores, he can be an additional front-line fighter. But I think that he could do some range damage to compliment healing as needed.

Mind you, if anyone else is going to improve their bow skills (so all those special arrows don't go to waste, etc.), I have no problem sticking to my original cleric path. Just let me know and I will adjust accordingly.

As for story explanation, I would argue that the experiences in Harrowstone prison have "toughened him up" from the more quiet life of just being a town gravedigger. My idea would be that the experience has also given him a greater appreciation for his missing father's work as a soldier - and given his elven background - made him more interested in taking up the bow. If they are staying in Ravengro for any length of time, some practice would be in order.

Madeline shall be continuing in her Summoner class from now on.

She's already 'dipped' into Fighter to gain the martial background as well as using the martial feat to begin delving into black powder weapons (Which was always the thematic thing, her background story bringing her from Alkenstar).

As her evolution points build up, she shall continue to invest in expanding Smith's capabilities.

When Madeline was first created the Summoner was a very new class. Now, many months and expansions down the track there are a broad range of 'extra' things a Summoner cn do. Madeline will eventually be using a 'Larger' variant of Smith as a combat suit.

In the current rules the 'standard' method is 'Synthesist summoner'. These rules did not exist when Madeline was created and to be honest I am unhappy with the way the Synthesist actually works. I shall continue on my path to create an eidolon 'battle suit'...I shall just be doing it the 'hard way'.

Much cheers and best wishes to all.

And once more with more stuff. This time it's about equipment. Here's all the loose/non committed stuff that nobody has so far. Here's my take on what we could do; please make an suggestions or feedback as needed:

Ring of Keys - no longer needed; Give to the Ravengro Sherriff?

(1) Broken Heavy Masterwork Crossbow - Sell

Axe (masterwork?) from headless skeleton - Sell

Leather Satchel - I'll keep for storing

Set of masterwork thieves’ tools - Unless someone is taking a level in Rogue, I suggest sell

Bronze war medallion from the Shining Crusade - Sell

Unframed Taldan painting of Stavian I - Sell

Set of a noblewoman’s silver hair clips - Sell

Masterwork punching dagger - Sell

Pouch containing a dozen masterwork shurikens - Sell

Masterwork silver war razor - Keep.

(6) Suits of Masterwork Chainmail - Valen will claim one; Sell the rest

(6) Suits of Masterwork Studded Leather Armor - Vaghn will claim one; Sell the rest

(5) Masterwork Longswords- Sell

(4) Masterwork Heavy Maces - Sell

(120) Crossbow Bolts - Keep some for Madeline; maybe Valen if I don't switch to bow.

Keen Longsword +1 - Keep; not sure who will use.

Mithral Dagger +1 - Keep; tend to think it might be useful for Vaghn or Madeline.

Ring of Protection +1 - Keep; Use for someone with armor concerns - Alexa or Vaghn maybe.

Blood-stained Handaxe +1 - Impulse is to sell; anyone with Axe proficiency? Thinking this belonged to the Lopper.

Collection of holy symbols - It is supposed to help focus spell casting, but I am of the mind to sell it. Belonged to Father Charlatan.

Tarnished Silver Flute - Sell; Can Vaghn use it? Belonged to Piper of Illmarsh.

Smith Hammer with unknown properties - It's Vaghn, so up to him. Can we try to ID again to see what it does? Probably belonged to the Mosswater Maruader.

Moldy Spellbook - Sell or burn unless Vaghn's going to keep it to learn spells. Belonged to Splatter Man, and has some control effects on person holding it.

((12) Silver Tipped Arrows; (9) Arrows +1; (5) Ghost Touch Arrows +1; (2) Undead Bane Arrows +1) - Keep.

About 620 GP in the common fund so far before selling/bartering.

Think we are need of some Bags of Holding on the shopping list as well.

Mind you if our new person is need of gear, can we retro-fit him as needed with some of the masterwork gear/magical items? There's a thought.

Hope that helps to get us started.

My thoughts upon the list:

Ring of Keys - no longer needed; Give to the Ravengro Sherriff? Agreed

(1) Broken Heavy Masterwork Crossbow Madeline can both repair said item as well as use the part to further her equipment's development. Keep (Am willing to 'buy' said wreck with Madeline's share of moneys) Sell

Axe (masterwork?) from headless skeleton Get blessed/hallowed/etc - Sell

Leather Satchel -Agreed I'll keep for storing

Set of masterwork thieves’ tools Note..there is a magic set of gloves which will give any one 'Disable device' skill. So, maybe keep for future use. As pointed out, we don't have a Rogue and eventually we will want to open locks. Keep

Bronze war medallion from the Shining Crusade - Sell

Unframed Taldan painting of Stavian I - Sell

Set of a noblewoman’s silver hair clips Given Madeline's back ground of 'dispossessed Noble' I am happy to spend Madeline's share of loot to claim these - Keep Sell

Masterwork punching dagger - Sell

Pouch containing a dozen masterwork shurikens - Sell

Masterwork silver war razor - I suppose. We are in Ustalev...Keep

(6) Suits of Masterwork Chainmail - Valen will claim one; Sell the rest

(6) Suits of Masterwork Studded Leather Armor - Vaghn will claim one; Madeline can also wear a set with minimal penalties to her Summoning, also keep one for her use; Sell four(4)

(5) Masterwork Longswords Madeline can use such a weapon quite deftly, keep one; Sell four(4)

(4) Masterwork Heavy Maces I think Alexa might be able to use such? Or are them metal headed weapons? - Sell possibly four(4)

(120) Crossbow Bolts - Keep some for Madeline; maybe Valen if I don't switch to bow. Yes please. I shall try and put them to very good use.

Keen Longsword +1 - Keep Not sure who will use. Madeline has weapon finesse and is already investing in the 'Aldori' dueling style? Perhaps?

Mithral Dagger +1- Keep Tend to think it might be useful for Vaghn or Madeline. Agreed. Such a weapon will be useful in general, me thinks.

Ring of Protection +1 - Keep Use for someone with armor concerns - Alexa or Vaghn maybe. Agreed.

Blood-stained Hand-axe +1 - Impulse is to sell; anyone with Axe proficiency? Thinking this belonged to the Lopper. Agreed, though after getting it consecrated/blessed/hallowed/etc first.

Collection of holy symbols - It is supposed to help focus spell casting, but I am of the mind to sell it. Belonged to Father Charlatan. Perhaps give them back to the church?Sell

Tarnished Silver Flute - Sell Can Vaghn use it? Belonged to Piper of Illmarsh.

Smith Hammer with unknown properties - It's Vaghn, so up to him. Can we try to ID again to see what it does? Probably belonged to the Mosswater Maruader. Finding out what it's potential is would be a good thing before passing it on.

Moldy Spellbook - Sell or burn unless Vaghn's going to keep it to learn spells. Belonged to Splatter Man, and has some control effects on person holding it. Might we get a better price at the next town we are going to for our reward?

((12) Silver Tipped Arrows; (9) Arrows +1; (5) Ghost Touch Arrows +1; (2) Undead Bane Arrows +1) - Keep.

Just some thoughts.

Much cheers to all.

And the new hybrid classes will be available on the 19th, too

(1) Broken Heavy Masterwork Crossbow Madeline can both repair said item as well as use the part to further her equipment's development. Keep (Am willing to 'buy' said wreck with Madeline's share of moneys) Sell

Madeline - Just so there's no confusion, you should already have a nice and new Masterwork Heavy Crossbow that we found in the armory haul in the prison. That is separate from the broken one we found. If you want to keep and repair, go ahead - but then you'll have two of them. Can you go "gunslinger" and fire two at once?

And the new hybrid classes will be available on the 19th, too

Interesting - had no idea it was going on.

*Laughs* Actually..I was thinking of turning the broken one into a sort of 'proto-type'.

Bottled Lightning

basically mounting a couple of 'Lightning bottles' upon the haft and suing the trigger mechanism to 'fire' them, one at a time. As Madeline works up to her black powder weapon. (^_^)

Madeline could probably just "buy" a firearm in one of the bigger cities at this point, although they are going to be rare and somewhat expensive. Or, you could take a level in gunslinger and get one that way.....

*Laughs* Actually..I was thinking of turning the broken one into a sort of 'proto-type'.

(^_^)

Noted. Add crazy inventor to Madeline's titles...and stay away from her workshop on "experiment day!" :-))

I have no problem with her just taking the broken weapon for her usage - I don't think she has to put back in the pot for something we would have gotten minimum return.

Actually, I took "Amateur Gunslinger" with the level of Fighter....So...Madeline had always planned on crafting the thing(s) herself.

So that, later in the adventure, she can build bigger better ones...

*Cough*

I also hope my idea for a 'cheaper' alchemical stand in meets with the DM's approval?

Sure, if you want to craft it, have at it. You're still going to need to fire it using a standard action, though. You just won't need to reload it and you'll be able to fire it twice, I guess.

Just spent forty-five minutes typing up Vaghn's motivations as per RGM's request, only to have the site eat it. :( So I'll try that again later. For now...

Okay, now to see if it eats this post too...

Hope sharing these thoughts has helped a little.

Very much wishing every one all the very best.

Very much cheers and best wishes to all. (^_^)

Very much cheers to all. (^_^)

Very much cheers to all. (^_^)

A few notes:

Smith-eats-Madeline
Bite - 1 evolution points
Grab - 2 evolution points
Swallow Whole - 3 evolution points
Large - 4 ep

Ok, realistically, all that is being added is the Swallow Whole

Other evolutions
- Skilled(perception) - 1 ep

Feat - Exotic weapon proficiency

Thus, you are using 11 evolution points and 1 feat to get the base creature you want. This only leaves you with 3 evolution points and 3 feats. Assuming you want Smith to do damage, feats are likely something like Power Attack or Dodge, probably Combat Reflexes as well since he will have a decent Dex. The remaining evolution points would probably be something like Improved Armor.

In addition, as RGM has said, Stoneskin is not listed under permanency. Thus, a unique magic item would be required. Based upon the general rules for crafting magic items, it would be:

2000x4(spell level)x7(CL) = 56000 x 1.5 (10min/level spell) = 84000 + 100x250(material components) = 109000

If you were to make it a 1 use/day item, then the cost would be reduced to 1/5 of this, or 21,800 gp. Based upon the standard WBL tables, the continuous item would use up 101% of your wealth at level 12, and the 1/day version would be almost 50% of your WBL at level 9.

Also, you and Smith could take damage from the same spells and if someone managed to hit Smith with a mind controlling spell, since his Will saves are probably much lower than yours, then both of you are out of the battle and potentially off the side of a cliff, in an instant.

Furthermore, while within Smith, you would be effectively removed from the game. You could not cast most spells and those you could cast would probably be less effective (no line of sight).

In effect, you are creating a one trick pony, and as soon as RGM has an ogre sunder your piston maul, you are left fighting with a light mace or a dagger or the default claws/bite which even large only do 1d6 or 1d8 damage.
_________

I am not saying that you cannot build your character any way you want, but you are spreading your ideas al over the place. Although the piston maul is big, it is not superior. At level 9, Smith's BAB is +7, which will give him 2 attacks with the Piston Maul which when enlarged is 2d8+str. His strength will probably be 28 at this point (16 base, +3 dex/str bump, +1 ability increase, +8 Large). Thus, you are getting 2 attacks at +7/+2 and doing 2d8+13 damage.

On the other hand, if he is attacking with his claws/bite, you have 3 attacks doing 1d8/1d6/1d6 and all are at +7 BAB. Furthermore, as all are primary attacks, all will get +9 damage. In addition, for 1 evolution point, you can grab Improved Damage to jack the bite to 2d6. If you talk your friendly druid into casting Strong Jaw on Smith, then the damage goes from 2d6/1d6/1d6 up to 4d6/2d6/2d6.

Furthermore, rather than the Swallow Whole, you could instead take Grab or Trip. Either of these in conjunction with Combat Reflexes would ramp up your damage and give you all kinds of additional attacks.
_________

You can use your evolution points and feats however you want, but you have already taken a big hit by dipping into fighter for a level as this puts your Eidolon and your Summoner casting a level behind. I love your ingenuity and creativity, but think that for this campaign where we are likely to meet incorporeal undead and monsters with all types of resistances, creating an eidolon with some versatility on the battlefield is preferable. For instance, buy a wand of Mage Armor, and take Shield as a spell. This combination will give you +8 to Smith's AC for most fights at a minimal costs. Take Evolution Surge (this is great when it allows for 4 or 6 ep evolutions, as you will be able to jump up his size on command, but not have a gigantic eidolon following you through town all the time.) Take some battlefield control and buffing spells (Haste, Enlarge Person, Glitterdust Create Pit, etc). For feats, the standard for a Summoner is Skill Focus(conjuration), Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning. These will buff battlefield control spells (Glitterdust, etc) and really increase the power of your Summon Monster spells.
__________

Anyway, now back to figuring out what to do with the outdoorsy drumonk.

*Bows*

Thank you indeed Alexa. As I posted after yours. There is a belt of 'Stone Skin' but realistically Madeline won't ever be able to afford it. (Even managing to get one at half price is hideously expensive.)

At this point, while I thank every one for their help and input, I realize the ideas I have for Madeline are impossible. (Unless the DM rules that Smith can actually stop chewing/whatever :P)

So...ideas for a complete rebuild any one?

Wishing every one all the very best.

Madeline,

You don't really need me to make the ruling, is the point. What you're trying to do can be easily accomplished with the rebuild, which I think is pretty generous at this point. You could build the summoner like you want (wearing it), the easy way. What I think you're trying to do isn't really fair to the other players (because Alexa is correct on all accounts - you're trying to build that one trick pony that partially breaks the class). Worse, it isn't even remotely close to optimal, especially with the way you've built your character up to this point.

I guess what baffles me at this point is this: I'm giving you the opportunity to rebuild your character so that you can play it that way you want (essentially, as a Synthesist) and you're looking for ways not to do that.

If you don't want to rebuild Madeline, don't. If you do, do so. It's pretty simple.

*Bows*

I am very/more than happy to rebuild Madeline. I just don't feel the Summoner is 'right' for me.

Indeed, as pointed out, I'm generating a one trick pony which is a detriment to the game.

I am very more than happy to hear others ideas for what Madeline should be rebuilt into from here on in.

Very much cheers to all.

Personally, I love the concept of Madeline and her manservant.

I'd hate to see you not play her. She's got an awesome feeling. I just think you're proposed build is a bad idea (and, like I said, unfair). If I were you, I'd look harder at basic summoner or possibly the evolutionist, making your Eidelon large and in charge at 9th level (8 levels of summoner unless you rebuild).

*Bows*

Thank you indeed for those words of encouragement and compliments.

I shall continue to poke and tweak at the Summoner build in Hero lab.

The use of guns, however, will be something I shall then be keeping for said build.

Expect a "Large and in charge Smith" to be wielding a suitable large and in charge type of weapon. (^_~)

Unless others have ideas and such?

Madeline - I think you need to differentiate between your background, and your character. You have a background, and this can be used to work with how you play your character, but feat dipping into multiple areas as you are doing will result in you being unable to do any of them effectively. If you want to wield the Dueling Sword, I think that there is a trait which effectively give you proficiency in that one single weapon (not all dueling swords, but just your hereditary weapon. Even if it is not Masterwork, this can be accomplished with a spell and then you can add enchantments to it.

Your strength and con are 10 each. As such, you are going to be wiped out in about 20 seconds in any real combat. Summoners are buffers, and they are VERY good at it. If you had taken Enlarge Person, casting it on Smith would have ramped his damage up to 2d8 and casting it on me when using Shillelagh would have moved me to 3d6. At 4th level as a summoner, you get Haste and other fun spells. This would have been invaluable in the last few fights.

Also, taking a level in fighter gives you a bunch of skills which really do not mesh with you as a summoner. You get medium armor, heavy armor, and shield proficiency. All of these conflict with your spell casting unless you use Arcane Armor Training/Mastery which is several more feats you do not have to spend.

If you really want the gun, that is fine, but remember that it will be an expensive endeavor as this is Ustalav, land of the Whispering Tyrant, not Alkenstar, the land without magic. With your high dex, a crossbow would be a far wiser choice. If you want to flavor it so that it looks like a gun of some sort, that is fine. Just remember, you are a spellcaster with some powerful spells. Any weapons, guns, swords, crossbows or otherwise, should be secondary.
___________

Finally, the two archetypes that have been discussed are viable. You mentioned the Wild Caller. You lose a bunch of cool evolutions, but can still build an extremely powerful fighting machine. However, you cannot take Weapon Training as an evolution, which might conflict with how you want Smith to appear. Also, a Wild-Caller is more of a natural eidolon creator. Thus, much of the civility that you have in your vision does not really fit with the archetype as you have envisioned it.

Synthesis fits exactly with what you want. You would have the ability to cast spells, which you pretty much lose being swallowed, and would effectively have very high stats - Eidolon str/dex/con and your int/wis/cha.
___________

My final statement about all this. The Summoner can be a very powerful and effective class, but you need to make sure that you know what the purpose and abilities of the Summoner are. You currently have Endure Elements and Life Conduit. You may have reasons for these, however, Endure Elements is another cheap level 1 wand, and a spell that I rarely, if ever, see used unless the campaign is mostly ice or desert. Similarly, Life Conduit really just replicates Life Link in many ways. Yes, it allows you to heal yourself 1d6 hp from your Eidolon if necessary, but how often are you expecting to be that close to death. The goal of the rest of the party is to keep casters safe. Plus, between Vaghn, Valen and myself, we already have three characters who can cast cure spells and use cure wands.

So, whether you do a straight Summoner rebuild, a synthesis summoner, a wild caller, or some type of a multi-class, please carefully read everything about the class and archetype so that the character is not only what you want from a personality standpoint, but more importantly, can use its skills, feats and abilities to help the party and make the game fun for you.

Again thank you all for your help and forbearance.

Am working on a straight Summoner (Muti-pet) variant. My thinking is this, I get to keep my Smith and have a combat eiudalon to. (^_^)

Here is the 'New' Madeline for people's perusal and comments.

The new Smith

And introducing Soot...

Of interesting note. My current Hero-Lab does not have "Gnomish Piston Maul" in its inventory.

Would any one have an inkling as to which supplement needs to be acquired to include such?

Much cheers to all.

Madeline - I like the creativity, but a few notes. First, all these eidolons will be small, not medium. Thus, Smith, with his piston maul, will be doing 1d8, not 1d10. They become medium at level 8 and then large at level 13, but this requires 4 ep for the medium and another 6 ep to make both of them large.

Once more, think about what you want your eidolon(s) to do. If you want a manservant, then with the Broodmaster archetype, you have a very small (halfling sized) manservant. If you want a combat machine, then you end up with a very small fighter, doing one size category less damage. If you envision this as being your goal, then that is fine.

If you really want to have an Eidolon and combat troops, then a good option is the Master Summoner. The eidolon gets less evolution points, but you can toss out lots of Summon Monster spells all with Augment Summoning.

If you want to "wear" your Eidolon, then the Synthesist is what you want.

As we previously discussed, Wild Caller give bonus evolution points which you can have fun with. It requires Smith to be more natural, but could be fun.

Really, unless you have a specific reason for wanting to run a Broodmaster (a scout eidolon and a perception eidolon and flankers and . . . etc.) then I think that you may find your eidolon less effective in many situation that if you take the straight summoner or one of the other archetypes with a single eidolon.

*Ponders* But...I built the current incarnations with Hero-lab....

It's allowing Smith and Soot to both be medium at 5th level...

The pages show both creatures as Medium.....

Strange....

I shall look at "Master Summoner" as well.

But the above builds would seem legal....or are they not?

I am confused again. :(

Never trust something you did not program. I do not know what all is in Herolab and always build all my online characters by hand.

Read the first paragraph of the Broodmaster archetype:

Eidolon Brood

At 2nd level, instead of a single eidolon, a broodmaster summons two Small eidolons to his side, each less powerful than the single eidolon of a standard summoner. Each eidolon has it own base form and associated base statistics and free evolutions. Regardless of the number of eidolons in the brood, each eidolon has the same base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses, but the rest of the eidolons’ base statistics must be divided between the eidolons, including Hit Dice (minimum 1), skill points, number of feats, armor bonus, Str/Dex bonus, evolution pool (but see below), and maximum number of natural attacks. Individual eidolons in the brood must purchase evolutions separately. Once a broodmaster decides on the forms and abilities of his eidolons, they cannot be changed until the summoner gains a level. Example: A 2nd-level broodmaster can summon two eidolons. Each eidolon has 1 Hit Dice, BAB +2, +3 on its two good saves and +0 on its bad save. The broodmaster decides to give the first eidolon 4 skill points, one feat, a +1 armor bonus, a +1 bonus to Strength, 2 points from the evolution pool, and a maximum of two attacks. The remaining 4 skill points, +1 armor bonus, +1 bonus to Dexterity, and 2 points from the evolution pool go to the second eidolon, but it gains no feats and can have only one natural attack.
The broodmaster must dismiss all of his eidolons at one time. Likewise, all of the eidolons in a brood are banished if the broodmaster is unconscious, asleep, or killed. However, each eidolon in the brood is sent back to its home plane individually when its hit points are reduced to a negative number equal to or greater than its Constitution score.
This ability replaces the summoner’s normal eidolon ability.

Larger Brood

At 8th level, the broodmaster can spend 4 evolution points from the evolution pool for the large evolution; unlike with other evolutions, he spends these 4 points before he assigns evolution points to his individual eidolons (for an 8th-level broodmaster with 11 evolution points, this leaves 7 evolution points to distribute among the eidolons). This allows him to summon two Medium eidolons, four Small eidolons, or one Medium eidolon and two Small eidolons.

At 13th level, if the broodmaster has purchased the large evolution for his brood, he can spend an additional 6 evolution points from the evolution pool for the huge evolution, distributing the remaining points among his eidolons. This allows him to call two Large eidolons, four Medium eidolons, eight Small eidolons, or any similar combination in which two smaller eidolons count as one eidolon of one size larger.
_____________

Hmmm...I think our misunderstanding is between 'Large' and 'Medium'.

I am quite happy for both Smith and Soot to be 'Medium' in size at the moment and as Madeline is 5th level I do not see the rules limiting this size.

I agree the rules do seem to say that 'Large' cannot be gained until 8th level (Which will be 8th level with this build of Madeline)

Perhaps the wording is a tad unclear?

( I think this is ow it is going)

Madeline summons (Or plans on summoning) her two eidolons. By the rules these will be small. She spends evolution points on each to bring them up to medium. Thence she allocates the remaining evolution points upon their abilities.

*Scratches head*

I must admit to feeling conflicted. First I am told(Suggested highly) to buy into Herolab as it is a good/trusted/better way of building a character. Now I am told that the program is not to be trusted and that using the books is the sure-fire way to do things....

*Sigh*

Read the rules on the class and the archetypes. If you are a Broodmaster, you will have 2 Small eidolons until level 8. At level 8, you can take the 4 point "Large" evolution. This will not make your eidolons large, rather it will make both Medium, or will let you have up to 4 underpowered Small eidolons. At level 13, you will be able to take the 6 evolution point addition to the Large evolution. This costs 10 points (4+6) and will let you have 8 Small eidolons, 4 Medium, or 2 Large -- but NO huge, which is what you would get with a normal Eidolon.

I personally have never used Herolab and cannot say whether it is good or bad. In the end, the book are the rules. You can access them all for free on the paizo.com site, or access all the info in what is usually easier to read formats on the d20pfsrd site.

If you know of an evolution that allows you to increase the size of the Broodmaster brood from small to medium, please let me know what it is. I do not know of one other than you, the summoner, casting Enlarge Person a lot.

But...that seems to be a 'blind spot' within the rules. Normally a Summoner has to pay evolution points to make their critters smaller.

Here..the Pack-lord is getting said 'small' evolution for free...on two critters no less.

Hero lab has a function to make small critters larger (Which has come across in the stats that I've posted). So..going from small to medium would seem to have no level limit (As developed within the Hero lab program).

It is only going from medium to large which has the criteria of being set at 8th level.

No, a normal Summoner can simply decide to have a Small eidolon with all the relevant changes (-4 Str, -2 Con, +2 Dex, +1 AC, +1 Attack, +2 Fly, +4 Stealth, etc). However, a normal summoner can simply change his eidolon to a larger (Medium) version whenever he changes his evolution point distribution (usually at level up). A broodmaster does not have this choice.

You should carefully look at the Evolutionist. It is not overpowered, but it would allow you to change your Eidolon more frequently. Manservant in social situations, deadly serpentine or quadruped in combat/search situations.

It is your choice how you want to build your character, but please read the rules and read them thoroughly.

Finally, as I have said, Herolab is a 3rd party product. My understanding is that is generally good, but it is only as good as its programmers are at copying materials from Paizo. It is very possible that they did not program the ediolon variances caused by the broodmaster archetype.

Actually...it costs evolution points to make a vanilla Summoner's eidolon small.

So...is/would the DM allow Madeline to spend evolution points on their two small (Via Broodlord archetype) eidolons to make them medium?

No it does not, READ THE RULES!!!

Each eidolon has one of three (four if using Ultimate Magic) base forms that determines its starting size, speed, AC, attacks, and ability scores. All natural attacks are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted (such as in the case of secondary attacks). Eidolon attacks add the eidolon’s Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier. These base forms also note any free evolutions that base form possesses. The bonuses from these free evolutions are already factored into the starting statistics. Alternatively, any one of these base forms can be used to make a Small eidolon. If the eidolon is Small, it gains a +2 bonus to its Dexterity score. It also takes a –4 penalty to its Strength and a –2 penalty to its Constitution. It also gains a +1 size bonus to its AC and attack rolls, a –1 penalty to its CMB and CMD scores, a +2 bonus on its Fly skill checks, and a +4 bonus on its Stealth skill checks. Reduce the damage of all of its attacks by one step (1d6 becomes 1d4, 1d4 becomes 1d3). If this choice is made, the eidolon can be made Medium whenever the summoner can change the eidolon’s evolution pool (which causes it to lose these modifiers for being Small).
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The Broodmaster effectively changes this by forcing you to choose the Small eidolon until you get to level 8 at which time you can make it medium by choosing the Large evolution.
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I am not going to comment on your builds any more. You can choose and build your character how you want. I have tried to direct you to the rules several times today, but do not have the time to spend more time on this.

*Bows* I do thank you for your time and efforts.

Much cheers to all.

Madeline,

Instead of prepping book two, I just went through and built a 5th level Brood Master in Hero Lab and discovered that it does, in fact, reduce the size of both Eidelons to small size. Here are two screen shots: Biped & Quadraped. I have no honest idea what you're doing in Hero Lab to magically produce two medium-sized Eidelons, unless you're completely ignoring the build warnings and increasing their sizes with evolutions, which you possess the ability to do, but aren't permitted to do. Hero Lab allows you to break the design mechanics all the time, but YOU need to look at the bottom of the program and make sure everything is valid. If the text at the bottom left hand side of the screen is red and displays warnings, chances are you are NOT valid. I'll put money on it that you're NOT valid.

Whew! Lots of rule discussion on Summoners of which I wasn't even aware, so thank you for that.

Madeline - you have some creative ideas on how to mold this character. I could easily see the somewhat naïve Valen totally freaking out if Smith were to swallow her. ;-)
Whatever you do, I'll admit I am curious to see how the "new" character turns out. And that's about all I can add to the Summoner conversation for now.

On another note - you guys have certainly generated my interest in using Hero Lab for making my characters. I tend to make with pencil and paper my character builds, but with Paizo having so many class variations - it looks like a quicker way to start the process.
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Valen will stay straight cleric, but I am still considering weapon specialization so that arrows and bow get used. Switching from crossbow to longbow seems workable. That being said:

@RGM: Do we know what class our new member will be? It might be nice to know so we can set aside appropriate equipment from our stash.

I'm pushing him toward something melee...

Ugh, this cold has been royally kicking my butt all week. Finally had time to sit down and type up a couple alternative builds for Madeline's perusal. Take a look and let me know what you think; I hope it's obvious that we're trying to help, not to gang up on you! Keep in mind that other than pointing out rules discrepancies, this is all just my opinion and you are free to take or leave it as you please; my feelings won't be hurt and I'll still enjoy gaming with you. :)

I hope you like these builds as much as I do. I've never played a summoner, but working with these has peaked my interest. Whatever you decide, I look forward to more great gaming in the future! Cheers!