GM Ladile's TL;DR: A Pathfinder Society Campaign

Game Master Lady Ladile

So, here's another potentially noobish question... or two, maybe...

I'd like to get some kind of circlet to represent the one in my avatar pic. I'm willing to drop a couple of gold on it (I was thinking maybe like a tarnished silver with amethysts or some other purple semi-precious stones) and "Jewelry" from Ultimate Equipment seems to be legal for society play, but the price is just listed as "varies"... are there any guidelines anywhere for how much any jewelry should cost? If I just pick a value do I note that with the item and call it a day?

Which brings me to my next question... Is finishing my character's profile on the boards all I have to do to be ready to start or do I have to like notify someone that he's been finalized, or like submit a finished copy somewhere?

1. Yes. You have a few options. Least paperwork: keep a total of money set aside that represents to you your circlet (because jewelry is the same as cash). More paperwork: Have GM Ladile document on your first scenario Chornicle it as a purchase for the value you choose and subtract that from your gold.

2. The only official thing to register is your character name to get a number assigned, which it looks like you've done as your alias is in green text. Then any PbP GMs, like Ladile, are going to want your profile up to date and will probably review it in your profile just for ease of reference, but there's nobody outside of the table you're playing at that you need to notify.

In a live game, as long as it was legible, you could show up with a sheet on construction paper written in crayon. The only requirement is that the GM can read and understand it.

Thank you!

So, there's no option for starting with the circlet? If I want it on my sheet it has to be on a chronicle? (I have 14 gold left currently and wouldn't mind dropping some of that on it...)

Also- I noticed in the Guild guide that all of the older factions can use 'secondary missions' from one of the old nation-based factions but the Concordance apparently can't... how significant is that? The Dark Archive doesn't fit quite as well flavor-wise, but its not a complete mismatch and mechanically its probably a better option than the Concordance, and they have secondary quests from the older modules (the Cheliax ones)... should I switch?

edit: is it bad that I now want to replace all the info in my profile with a link to pictures of a character sheet made with crayons on construction paper?

When something is reflected on a chronicle sheet, that doesn't mean you get the item at the end. As soon as you sit down at the table, there is a chronicle sheet with your name on it. It is handed to you at the end of the scenario as a record of the game and what was spent/earned etc. For your first game, you'd have your initial circlet immediately if you dropped the money for it and the record of that purchase would just go on your chronicle sheet.

Does that help?

I think the default would be the Grand Lodge if the Concordance doesn't translate to a historical faction. I also suspect they will address this at the start of the final PFS season (GenCon) when they release the final season guide (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Hmm... so for my first ever adventure does the GM have to mark all of my starting gear on my first chronicle sheet? Sorry, like I said, I’ve got a lot of Pathfinder experience but this is my very first exposure to society play.

edit: I guess I don’t really understand what you’re saying about the pathfinder lodge either... is there a thing where if your faction doesn’t have a secondary mission you automatically use the lodge’s secondary mission?

Anything consumable or >25 gp should be on an Inventory Tracking Sheet so that a GM can audit if requested.

I think most people would just RP with a 0 gp value circlet and call it a day. Others would include it as part of their 'cash' and just make a note to the effect of X gp as jewelry (circlet).

To make it a 'thing' requires a GM sign off, but unless it's going to come up in play at some point (e.g. it becoming a material component or getting enchanted or something I can't think if), I would use one of the non-paperwork methods above.

Edit re: edit: Yes

Ok... got it, I think... is there an official Inventory Tracking Sheet I need to use or is that the thing that someone was talking about having an online one we could use somewhere up-thread?

edit: regarding factions... at the risk of being too meta-gamey, is it ok to go with the faction that I like the flavor of a bit more, or should I go with the one that looks like will work better mechanically with my skills and whatnot?

For factions, I'd go with the one that you like best or that you think best suits the character. Regarding faction missions, prior to uh...I think Season 5, characters often had to complete a faction mission to earn their second prestige point for the scenario. The last several seasons have done away with that, however, and instead do the following:

1st Prestige - Earned by completing the primary task of the scenario

2nd Prestige - Earned by doing/not doing 3 things from a list of 5; for example a scenario I recently ran allowed the group to earn their second prestige by: (A) not fighting city guards, (B) convincing an NPC to share some additional info, (C) retrieving some items from some critters, (D) solving an encounter peacefully, and (E) capturing instead of killing an NPC. The group had to do at least three of those to earn their second prestige point (which they did).

The Organized Play folks went back and wrote up a document for Secondary Success Conditions to be used instead of faction missions when running older scenarios. So if/when I run anything from earlier seasons the faction missions will be optional - I'll probably ask at the beginning if anyone wants to be given theirs or not, to do for fun. Does that make sense? :)

(Also, thank you folks for being around today to answer questions while I was at work!)

*edit* I don't think there's an official ITS that you can use online; most people (including myself) usually just note purchases and such under a spoiler tag on their profiles.

I use the ‘official’ ITS for face to face play. For online play, I just list everything in a running total. But I saw Tupp’s spread sheet and copied that because it’s neat and orderly.

ok... I changed my alias picture; now my cloak matches my armor better and I don't have a circlet to worry about.

After reading over the factions again, I'm still kind of torn but I think I am going to switch to Dark Archive... OOC, it seems a little dark for how I'm picturing the character right now, but IC my mother instilled intellectual curiosity in me as boy and I did a lot of book learning once I arrived in Absalom, so it seems like a fairly good fit on those counts (plus they seem like the ones most likely to embrace some atypical witch).

On tracking items- I'll do my best to track everything appropriately but please feel free to point out if I seem to have screwed something up!

Finally... I think my character is done... being new to society play, I welcome audits (and further instructions on anything I may have done wrong), but I'm basically ready to start playing, I think.

^Huzzah! I'll look over your sheet and see if there's anything that looks amiss. Think that pretty well makes everyone ready except maybe Hepsubia and I'll wait a bit longer to hear on that for certain. Good news is that Session #2 of Solstice Scar just finished tonight so I've got more time for the rest of my games now, including you guys <3

I'm ready... Unless you want a backstory.^^

I just changed my faction

Nah, I don't insist on detailed character backstories for PFS (though I still enjoy reading them). My own backstory work for my PFS characters usually consists of a basic background (where they came from, how/why they have the talents that they do, general personality) and a reason for joining the Society. The rest I like to leave open to explore and develop as I play :)

Re: Dark Archive being dark

The faction head’s motivation doesn’t have to be your character’s motivation. I have a couple DA paladins who are watching the watchers.

Okay! Now that start time is getting nigh, here's the more formal introduction I give when I start a new game.
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Who is GM Ladile?

My name is Kristin and I've been playing tabletop RPGs for the last 20 years or so. The bulk of my playing experience has been with AD&D 2nd Edition with a smattering of other systems such as AD&D 3rd/3.5, Dark Conspiracy and of course, Pathfinder. My home group switched to Pathfinder a little over 4 years ago and we've been hooked ever since. I started participating in PbP here on the Paizo forums maybe 6 months after that and then PFS PbP maybe a year and a half after that.

Yeah, that's a great story. What about your GM experience?

I've only been GMing for a little over a year now but I just recently achieved my first GM star! If you're interested in reading to see how I roll, you can find several of them linked under a spoiler tag on my main (Lady Ladile) profile.

What does GM Ladile need or want from me?

For starters, I'll (eventually) need some information for chronicles, which will be detailed below. But there's also some additional things!

Okay, like what?

Something I'm trying to get into the habit of doing when I'm gearing up to run a new game is to get an idea of what sorts of characters I'll have at my table. To this end, I ask you to tell me this: What does your character do that's cool? Do you specialize in combat maneuvers? Are you a beast that crushes Diplomacy checks with the greatest of ease? If your character has a 'thing' that they do or otherwise utilizes unusual things or specific circumstances then please let me know! This will make it easier for me to account for such things during combat and other sections where they might apply.

Got it! Anything else?

Yes, actually. Sometimes a player might find themselves temporarily unavailable to post in the game but, alas, the show must go on, especially if the GM and other players are still present and participating. To this end, I ask that you give me some basic instructions to follow should I need to 'bot' your character for you during combat or other moments. They don't have to be elaborate. For example, you could say something like this:

'Okay, immediately prior to combat I'm going to cast SuperBuff on our melee guy if I can. Then, if things are going well, I'll stand behind the melee guy and use my Longspear of Butt-Whoopin' to help him kill the bad guys. But if someone gets really hurt or goes down I'll use my Gloves of Awesome to heal them up again.'

Generally when I bot PCs I don't use consumable resources such as spells, abilities with <X> uses per day/round/whatever, potions, alchemical items, etc. unless explicitly given permission to do so via botting instructions *or* the situation is dire and I suspect the PC would use them to save himself or an ally.

GM Ladile, are you one of those super nitpicky GMs or are you more laid-back?

I suppose it depends on what you consider to be 'nitpicky' or 'laid-back'. I will run the scenario and the encounters within as written, to the best of my ability, as all Society GMs are expected to do. But I also try to utilize my own common sense when I run my games. I'm not going to have my monsters deliberately eat your familiar when (and if) there are more dangerous threats to target. I'm going to assume that the collective group is smart enough to utilize light sources when they need them, without me making you state so every single time you enter a dark place - though I might need to know what kind of light source for mapping purposes! If you have the time and aren't threatened by anything, I'm going to assume that you'll probably Take 10 to ID items via Spellcraft, that sort of thing. You're Pathfinder agents who are assumed to have had at least a little basic training before being sent out on missions and so I don't personally see the point in dithering around on minor things - it's boring and in this type of medium, it only slows things down even further.

So can I just mow your bad guys down with my tricked-out Archer of Doom or Slumber Hex my way to victory?

Well, technically yes. But my real answer is a bit more nuanced. If your character has a 'Thing' that they do, whether that be something cool for combat or something cool for social situations, then that's wonderful! My own sense of fun isn't contingent on me 'beating' the PCs - I want you guys to succeed! And so if you mow down my monsters with the greatest of ease or crush those diplomacy checks no problem then I'm not going to get butthurt about it. That being said, it is important to also consider your fellow teammates. While I'm happy to try and make sure that you'll get a chance to do your 'Thing' during the course of the scenario, please consider whether or not it'll be fun for your fellow players to sit by while you destroy everything. Everyone deserves a chance to participate and an opportunity to shine, so maybe consider toning your 'Thing' down a little so others have a chance to do their own 'Things'.

What about the posting rate?

Glad you asked! Some of you may have played with me before and know that my own posting habits and times shift depending on when I'm working and such. On the days that I work I'll likely only manage 1 post myself but on my off days I can usually manage more. In general, I try to post as much as I need to to keep the game moving along and people from getting bored. From you, the players, I would really like to see at least 1 post/day though more is certainly encouraged.

Is that all?

Almost! The most important thing of all that I'd like you to do is to bring a good attitude and plenty of enthusiasm. I consider it my job to make your playing experience an enjoyable one but it helps when my players seem like they're excited to be at the table and are willing to participate - it makes me happy, which means I usually write better posts, which makes you guys happy, etc. A positive feedback loop, if you will.

However, not all playing styles mesh and a few of you have not played with me as GM before. If you're not having a good time or otherwise have an issue with the way I'm running the game, please let me know and we'll try to work out a solution together. I can't help to fix problems if I don't know that a problem exists, so communicate. Talk to me. I promise I don't bite.

Last of all, I am by no means a rules expert or guru and the majority of my playing background is rooted in rules interpretations being flexible - to a point. So if I forget something or seem like I'm overstepping my bounds in what's allowed, please point it out but I also ask that you please don't be a jerk about it either :)

This is where I solicit some information from each of you that I'll use to prepare your chronicles at the end of the adventure as well as when I'm reporting the game on the website! I'll need the following information:

***Basic Information Form***

This Chronicle #:
Starting XP:
Initial Prestige:
Initial Fame:
Prestige Spent on this Chronicle:
Starting Gold:
Day Job Roll:
Gold Spent on this Chronicle:
Anything else you want me to note on your Chronicle:

I know some of these values may change as you make purchases and the like so it's not a problem if you want to wait on providing some of that information until closer to the end of the scenario. Nate, Haladir, Adam - Most of these values (Starting XP, Fame, Prestige) will be 0 for you to start with since you're bringing brand new characters.
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Since everyone seems to be ready, how does a 'soft' start date of this weekend sound for everyone? I know summertime weekends tend to be busy for folks but this one works a little better for me since I've got Friday through Sunday off and I prefer to start my games when I'm off from work.

Could you explain "Day Job?" I'm not familiar with that.

Thanks!

Copypasta from the Roleplaying Guild Guide!

Day Jobs

Not every Pathfinder works for the Society full time. Some are trained artisans, professionals, or performers and earn extra gold between missions. After each adventure that grants XP, you gain a period of Downtime before your next mission. During Downtime, you can attempt a trained Craft, Perform, or Profession check to see how much extra money you earn — this is called a Day Job check. At the end of each adventure in the Roleplaying Guild, you have the opportunity to make one Day Job check. Certain vanities (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide 60 and Pathfinder Player Companion: Pathfinder Society Primer 28) allow you to further modify your Day Job rolls, or even let you use skill ranks from other, more specialized skills like Heal or Sleight of Hand.

Permanent bonuses from the following list affect your Day Job check as they would any check for the rolled skill. Temporary bonuses from sources other than Crafter's Fortune do not affect Day Job checks:

• Equipment
• Feats
• Racial bonuses
• Class features
• Traits
• Familiar bonuses
• Crafter’s fortune spell

You can Take 10 on a Day Job check, but you may not Take 20 or use the Aid Another action. In order to determine how much gold you make as a result of a Day Job check, consult the table below. Add this amount to the Day Job box on your Chronicle sheet. There are additional ways to spend Downtime, many of which are performed in place of a Day Job check. These may include special boons that are earned during an adventure.

Day Job Check Result GP Award
5 - 1 gp
10 - 5 gp
15 - 10 gp
20 - 20 gp
25 - 50 gp
30 - 75 gp
35 - 100 gp
40 - 150 gp

It might take me a day or two, but I'll get my basic information posted here and a botting spoiler set up.

Kiango likes to pursue peacful resolutions when he and the team can manage it, but otherwise has no quarrels with combat. He has decent knowledges with regards to local, nature, planes and religion, as those are most of the areas of concern for the peoples he acts as peacekeeper for (many rural villages of the Mwangi that surround Nantambu) and the focus of his study at the Magaambya (which resides within Nantambu). At this level, he doesn't have a real "schtick" beyond having a funky spell list that will continue to get funkier as we play on.

Thanks for the info about Day Jobs. Alas, clerics get so few skill ranks, that I can't afford to drop any on non-adventuring skills at this time.

Personality and Appearance: Theo plays the part of an aristocratic dilettante wizard. Theo is a man of average height and portly build. He has curly light-brown hair, a full beard, and hazel eyes that sparkle when he smiles... which is often. He dresses in the finest Taldan fashions, is impeccably polite, and is genuinely warm and friendly. However, he does not tolerate cruelty or pettiness, and will pretty much always speak out when he encounters it. Theo is also a gourmet and truly enjoys fine food and drink. Theo truly believes in Sarenite philosophy, and is very quick to argue in favor of kindness, forbearance, and mercy... although he rarely if ever mentions the Dawnflower by name. Instead, he seeks to teach others by example.

Schtick: In play, he is very knowledgeable about noble families and politics (+9 Know-Nobility). He is also very familiar with arcane and religious matters (+7 each). Theo also has a silver tongue, and can be very convincing (Bluff +7), and often can figure out how to make strange magic items work (UMD +7).

In combat, he'll tend to hang back and rely on his magic to take care of things. While he doesn't look like much of a fighter, when he does get into a fight, he fights with his heirloom scimitar ("a war relic from my grandfather"), and displays a remarkable level of skill and grace with the weapon. ("I took quite a few fencing lessons when I was young!"). Theo has the feat Weapon Finesse, and intends to take the Dawnflower Dervish feat at L3.

When healing, either with Channel Energy or by casting cure light wounds, Theo will make a bit of a show of using a wand bearing the image of Sarenrae. The item had been a wand of cure light wounds which now has no remaining charges.

Player: ShieldBug
Character: Tupp Thistledown
Pathfinder Society Number: 210803-7
Faction: Silver Crusade
Slow Track or Normal: Normal

This Chronicle #: 2
Starting XP: 1
Initial Prestige: 2
Initial Fame: 2
Prestige Spent on this Chronicle: 2
Starting Gold: 559.35
Day Job Roll: N/A (if only I had a few more skill points)
Gold Spent on this Chronicle: 362.08
Anything else you want me to note on your Chronicle: Just that he bought a Wand of CLW. :)

I finally got Tupp's background, appearance, and personality done and it's all in his profile if anyone's interested. Basically he's a kind-hearted, friendly +6 diplomacy, but naive young man who is just trying to do his bit. He's not the sharpest sword in the armoury not many skills of note, but what he lacks in smarts, he makes up for with a willingness to help out can give a +4 with aid another checks whenever he can. In combat, he shows incredible courage and will run in front of the biggest threat if it means it will draw them away from his comrades, or innocents. However, it's not just bravery that Tupp brings to the party, and he can more than hold his own in a fight, tending to to inflict critical wounds 18-20 threat with a +1 to confirmation rolls on medium or larger creatures on those larger than himself. This skill with the sword is complimented by Tupp's extraordinary luck +3 bonus to rolls if decided to use before rolling, +2 if decided after rolling and the guidance of his chicken, Sori. However, he doesn't know he is on the road to being a paladin yet and he has no idea that his chicken has been sent to guide him on his path, he just likes eggs for breakfast. :)

Oh, and I have a Bot Me spoiler in the profile. ;)

Player: Tim M (Blake's Tiger)
Character: Zithembe of the Six Paths
Pathfinder Society Number: 230524-37
Faction: Dark Archive

For the First Scenario in Campaign

Slow Track or Normal: Slow

This Chronicle #: 7
Starting XP: 4.5
Initial Prestige: 6
Initial Fame: 8
Prestige Spent on this Chronicle: Pending . . .
Starting Gold: 874.04
Day Job Roll: Perform (oratory): 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (15) + 8 = 23
Gold Spent on this Chronicle: Pending . . .
Anything else you want me to note on your Chronicle: Pending . . .

Shtick: I adapt.

Chicken!

Zithembe's Bot Me spoiler should really just say: 'Heaven have mercy on you, poor botter.'

"Bok buk buh-gawk!"

Who you calling chicken? I'm not scared of no puddy cat!

This weekend's not really going to be a good one for me. I don't know when I'll be having time before Sunday to post. Don't let that stop ya though!

Wow, thanks for the in-depth information everyone - it'll definitely come in handy when I need to bot you. Of course I hope that won't have to happen too much as it's way more fun for you guys to play yourselves than for me to try and do it :)

@Nate & Hal - Things look good! Slow track is largely a way to extend the playing life of your character as you gain half the exp and gold that you would by playing Normal. In my experience most people play Normal and only go Slow unless they're trying to do the above (extend the play life of a PC) or trying to let other PCs catch up to them. Yes, starting gold is what you'd have after making your purchases. Gold spent applies if you decide to make any additional purchases before the start of a scenario or at the end and 'other things of note' is a catch-all for things that don't really fit anywhere else - if a GM used a replay on the scenario, if you completed a Faction Journal task, things like that.

@Zithembe - Lots of stuff to process, but cool stuff :)

And for anyone busy this weekend, don't worry - we can just start on character introductions and the like and then get started properly on Monday :)

***Basic Information Form***
Player: Escharid Blackrose
Character: Hepsubia
Pathfinder Society Number: 133884-11
Faction: Liberty edge
Slow Track or Normal: normal
This Chronicle #:
Starting XP: 0
Initial Prestige:0
Initial Fame: 0
Prestige Spent on this Chronicle:
Starting Gold: 150
Day Job Roll: Craft Alchemy: 1d20 + 2 + 2 ⇒ (3) + 2 + 2 = 7
Gold Spent on this Chronicle:
Anything else you want me to note on your Chronicle:

Hepsubia is agile and quick, skilled at what she does in the shadows (+8 to Acrobatics, DD, SoH and Stealth.) Being a long lived elf, she seems to know a bit about everything and to have tried every trade in the world at least once.(+4 total bonus to any Knowledge, +2 to any profession)

Hey guys, I've been out all day doing family stuff and I'm wiped so I'm calling it a night. Normal service will resume tomorrow - and by normal service I mean I'll get us started :)

Woo-hoo!!

Woo! Hopefully I'll have that information up by then.

Enjoy family time Lady L!

Woop woop! :)

And we're off! Feel free to check in, get settled in, and introduce yourselves - yes, for our first scenario we'll have a 'get to know each other in a tavern' interlude :)

Player: Adam Warnock
Character: Ylva Whitescale
Pathfinder Society Number: 26828-10
Faction: Liberty's Edge
Slow Track or Normal: Normal

This Chronicle #: 1
Starting XP: 0
Initial Prestige: 0
Initial Fame: 0
Prestige Spent on this Chronicle: 0
Starting Gold: 10gp
Day Job Roll: perform(Sing): 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (16) + 7 = 23
Gold Spent on this Chronicle: 0 (so far)
Anything else you want me to note on your Chronicle: Not that I can think of.

And right away, this seems very apropos as I watch the goings-on in Gameplay :3

Ylva is not a morning person.

I'm working today so I'll give you folks a little more time to chat amongst yourselves and for Nate and Gummy Bear to hopefully check in to Gameplay; depending on how things are going with that I'll try and move things along a bit when I get home tonight :)

hey, sorry, for some reason I never got any gameplay updates in my campaign tab... on my way to check in now!

edit: also, I just realized that in addition to having some physical traits in common with my northern sister we have some similarities in name... SYlvak... lol

Hey, folks.

I'm not sure how much posting I'm going to get in this week.

I had jury duty today, and while I didn't get picked, they went through 54 potential jurors and have only called 9 so far. I have to go back tomorrow for a fourth round of jury selection, and I have a weird feeling that I am going to get picked for this one.

It's a criminal case that will be emotionally jarring. I can't say anything beyond that.

I'll let you know how things pan out.

Oh man, I hope things work out. Sounds like you'll be needing all of the love and support we can give.

That's a bummer; for the sake of your mental/emotional health I hope that you'll luck out and not be selected this time. I'll bot Theodric along as needed until you're able to jump back in, okay?

***Basic Information Form***

Player: Gummy Bear
Character: Kiango
Pathfinder Society Number: 74244-15
Faction: Silver Crusade
Slow Track or Normal: Normal

This Chronicle #: 1
Starting XP: 0
Initial Prestige: 0
Initial Fame: 0
Prestige Spent on this Chronicle: 0
Starting Gold: 150
Day Job Roll: N/A
Gold Spent on this Chronicle: 148

Purchases:
Druid's Kit (a backpack, a belt pouch, a blanket, a flint and steel, holly, mistletoe, an iron pot, a mess kit, soap, a spell component pouch, torches (10), trail rations (5 days), and a waterskin) <--- animal feed not carried around, weighs waaay too much
Acid Flask (3)
Leather Lamellar Armor
Heavy Wooden Shield
Quarterstaff
Dagger
Light Crossbow

I was not picked to be on the jury, so that will not be a hindrance to my posting rate.

A Note About Skill Checks

For those new to Society scenarios, there will be many times where it's possible to learn some tidbit of information or achieve a particular result by successfully making a skill check. This can be anything from a Knowledge check (History and Local come up often, sometimes Nobility, in addition to the usual monster IDs like Arcana or Planes) to a Sense Motive check to a Profession check to a Perform check.

When there is something to be learned at a given time or location, I will make note of it in Gameplay and tag said information under a skill spoiler. This saves a lot of time and to me is much more fun and preferable to playing 'Stump the Chump' wherein I force the players to dither about and essentially try to guess the very specific check they're supposed to make or the thing that they need to do.

However, this isn't to say that the listed options are the *only* options. Depending on the circumstances, the scenario often allows leeway for player creativity to come up with other ways to solve a conundrum or a convincing argument to try a different skill check than the ones called for.

Hey hey, I'm sadly almost out of time before I need to head to work this morning so updates to follow later this evening :)

By the way, though I'll be working tomorrow night and Sunday night, I'll continue to post updates over the weekend as I'm able, depending on what the rest of you get up to. However, I know a lot of folks (in the US anyway) will likely be doing their July 4th celebrations this weekend so there's no pressure to post if you're busy :)

Of course, July 4th! Have a great time to all those celebrating over the weekend. :)

I love that we're having such a serious discussion about farm animals, haha. I know we just started but hopefully the pace is okay; with so many characters I'm a little more reluctant to motor things along since I want folks to have chances to flesh out their characters.

(For those who haven't played with me as a GM before, I'm a bit of a worry-wart about my pacing. So if you're fine with the pacing then just ignore me when I'm doing my worrying, heh.)