I will go with the general consensus that keeps us moving. Im not trying to bog us down with trivialities.
As said before, my interpretation was that each single element is "one question", but I'd assume that information to be feature complete.
That is, if I am asking for DR, I don't want to spend a second question on "what overcomes the DR" - especially if it's something I already know as player and just attempt to translate it into character knowledge.
(Not in terms of meta, but e.g. many outsiders have some kind of DR - I may know specifics as player, but the fact itself would be known if you have some experience with planes. If I want to see if my character remembers how to efficiently deal with e.g. devils, I think going the "is there DR" is question 1, "what overcomes it" question 2 route is likely to bog us down and feels like an antagonistic tax. - (and invites rules-lawyer wording....if my first question is already "what overcomes it's DR" i basically learn if it has DR as a freebie in addition, unless the first question is forced-))
Getting "all the information" of a category could also work, but imho only if only the person with the best relevant knowledge gets to roll.
That COULD streamline things, because you could roll the knowledge for us and just tell us how many categories we get to pick in the same post.
But my personal preference would be single items, everybody gets to roll, said items are "revealed" completely unless particularily obscure.
I tend to go with DM preference on Know checks. I'm fine with a narrative approach to conveying the information unless the facts are too complex and hard to digest that they breed even more questions. For instance, if Monster Bob has DR10/magic+cold iron and SR15, except in moonlight when his SR goes to 25 and his DR vanishes... yeah, just spell that out for me, please.
The other exception I would note is I think having the DR and the counter agent requiring two questions... smacks as a very old-school nitpicky DM approach to me (and I AM an old player and DM). As soon as a DM said "You know he has DR but finding out what kind of DR is another question..." would induce an eye-roll and a 'nevermind' from me. I'd rather play through the combat blind or guess at what beats his DR rather than play that nickel-and-dime approach. Just my two cents.
I'm neutral on the subject, oddly not so much a factor for Ro. Skill point allocations haven't favored knowledge skills so she's behind the curve there as a bard.
I urmm can't find the game on roll 20.....
@Drasven: Use this link to join the game.
I'll keep things relatively granular but still useful (i.e., no "There's DR, but you don't know what").
I'll probably try and use Web on the top of the grove - as a means to prevent it's retreat.
But waiting for our more martially inclined types to confirm it is down on the ground - just declaring my intent for now :)
I wasn't sure if Zoe was climbing a roof or just scaling a wall so I pushed her roughly into the blacked out area figuring she could definitely get that far. I hope I didn't jack up the encounter.
No worries, and definitely not jacked up. They would have likely shambled out on Round 3. And you can move her wherever you wanted. But if she flew over the trees, she would have looked down and seen some nasty customers waiting above some dug-up graves.
Hm, Drasven did not go yet? Did we already skip into round 3 or did Karmid jump the gun, there?
We are still waiting on Drasven, yes. I misinterpreted Karmid's post as part of his Round 2 action.
Apologies! I didn’t mean to skip ahead.
Apologies. I've being busy over the week end.
Sorry to make you all wait.
No worries Drasven(and Karmid) - I was just confused.
(But that's par for the course with Lia, anyway, so all good) :)
Weekends are often busy! We're all good ^_^
I am currently travelling(until sunday) and do not have access to roll20, so can't assess the tactical situation.(neither here nor in Iron Gods).
Apologies for any delays that causes.
Purely out of interest: Izzy did step forward to shoot the arrows at the Ghoul - so he'd not be exactly at his last known position for the Gargoyle.
Yet he still unerringly picked out the right Izzy out of a half-dozen Izzys nearby. The only special "Sense" it has is Darkvision according to what Flutter found out earlier.
So, did it just randomly pick the right Izzy? Or did he unerrounously home in on the right one?
I know he has one target locked in now, but I am contemplating wether to concentrate on the others, or if he has some means to automatically distinguish between "real" and "illusion" - I mean, he MAY want to switch to a squishier target, and if I cast something with a visible spell effect, he'll clearly know which me is the real me.
(or if he made the save - albeit I think even if he is aware that some of us must be fake, that would have consumed his standard action for an active perception check after moving out)
To be clear: I am all good with the call, I am just trying to understand by what means he bypassed it. Stuff like illusions have a wide table variance on terms of their utility, so just trying to get a feel for how you handle them.
It's a very fair question and I'm happy to answer!
Illusions are tricky and I want to give as much leeway to illusionists as possible. I am admittedly leery of using one spell to mimic the effects of another, and the effect here is somewhat like mirror image (or some of the other spells designed to induce a miss-chance). But I will generally allow for creativity to supersede RAW.
In this case, the gargoyle--not unintelligent by any stretch--watched five people approach its favored haunt. It dove into the church, preparing to come back out in a pincer maneuver. Upon exiting it saw over a dozen people--fishy to be sure. It looped around, trying to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity from illusory Ro while attacking the creature it saw as the biggest threat on the outside flank of the group (Izzy). The illusory Izzys were further away and did not seem smart to attack. And with Izzt stepping further in, the gargoyle would have to step into a potential flanking situation to get in a full attack.
Point being, it might not have bought you time in the first round, but it's still very much in play.
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Also, Karmid is unfortunately nauseated, which means no attacks >_< Sorry about that.
Thank you for the answer.
I totally understand mimicing the spell effect, but it is one reason I used the Level 3 version of major Image - and with the full understanding that it would not have the same efficiency - e.g. if there was some visible effects from something we do - or if it interacted with any of the illusions and had a chance to disbelief(which is not the case for mirror image) - the intent was mostly for it to waste it's first one or two turns before homing in on a proper target.
I did mention there would be more illusions but I did not want to fully cluster the area with doubles :) just basically show in which area we had them. As said, I am totally fine with the situation, it's mostly about understanding how I would have to describe my intent differently next time to get the desired effect(e.g. making it more clear that there is a denser population of doubles), or know if the intent is valid at all(where a no would be just as valid, but in that case I know better than trying next time and may instead ready a different action).
As said, I currently have no access to roll20 since I am travelling and only have my work laptop with me. I hope to be able to post within the next 2 days.
Totally fair, Lia. I was vexed for a couple of days with how to deal with it--intent vs interpretation vs what I saw on the map. I do want to encourage illusion stuff. Would you be open to working on some bounds on either side to construe what sorts of effects are feasible and which might be too powerful?
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For Karmid, I'm open to the nauseated condition, which reads:
to be less you-can't-do-jack debilitating. Especially in PbP, it's no fun when you are relegated to doing nothing. So, two options to consider:
1) Nauseated rev.2 = Sickened + Staggered.
The character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift, and immediate actions.
2) Nauseated rev.3 = Sickened w/ action to retch.
This takes a bit of philosophy from 2E and a bit from 1E's Hold Person. Basically instead of "wow you can't act" you can take the round to retch and attempt to recover, gaining another saving throw.
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So option 1 enables you to still act with pretty significant limitations, while option 2 still takes you out of the fight for a round, but gives an option to recover sooner. The former is a big nerf to the condition, while the latter is a minor nerf.
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Just waiting on Drasven's Round 4 action. If I don't hear by tomorrow, I will continue to delay him.
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Totally fair, Lia. I was vexed for a couple of days with how to deal with it--intent vs interpretation vs what I saw on the map. I do want to encourage illusion stuff. Would you be open to working on some bounds on either side to construe what sorts of effects are feasible and which might be too powerful?
Hum. At the very core of illusions is creative thinking - or that's my take. It's a bit like stage magic...trickery, but if done right can fool even those knowing something is off.
I am not sure bounds of that sort are...useful. If you prefer, we can try and construe something...there's also certain spells that I stay away from.(e.g. Mirage Arcana. In theory, awesome. Without hands, a map, and verbal communication, almost impossible to work out intent).That said, to me it's good enough that you deliberated over how to resolve it. My concerns were mostly if you had dismissed it instantly, which would have meant that similar attempts would mean wasted actions.
I don't expect illusions to work every time, and without fault, as long as there is a chance for them to do what is desired. I am also not sure if adding limitations or constraints would really help the case. :)
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That sounds perfect to me. I will always deliberate and err on the side of doing what you're trying to make happen with all the creativity that entails.
Ymmv with them, but the folks at the Glass Cannon Podcast have had an illusionist in one of their podcasts. One of the best moments for that character was using silent image to waste an enemy's actions. The exchange went something like this.
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GM: Roll 18 to hit PC.
PC: Roll a will save.
PC: Miss.
PC: It was all an illuuuuusion!
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The GM was mad (as he usually is), but accepted that it had been a good play. He also basically never let it happen again. I don't want to be like that GM. I want to have fun with it!
If I take the standard version, can I use my Hunter’s bond class ability as my move action and grant everyone in my group my favored enemy bonus at 1/2 effectiveness? That’s a + 2 to hit and damage for everyone else.
Yes!
Aye, I have no time for podcasts, despite numerous recommendations.
But yeah, that kind of thing. I mean, Project Image as a whole is just "Haha, it wasn't really me" in spell form.
Get opponents to waste actions, to alpha strike something that is not there, etc...I did twice "pretend" to have summons(a Hound Archon and a Couatl), with a modicum of success.
That seems one of the simplest ways of achieving something like this - quite straightforward and with little internal deliberation needed :)
But yeah, being invisible and using an illusory double to pretend I'm there was also on the list :)
Thanks for the clarification, and I'm looking forward to possibly bamboozling enemies in the future.
Seeing uses of illusions by an AP author or a GM helps sometimes. I think one of the most practical uses of illusions is to simply block sight. My understanding is even if you know its an illusion, a ‘curtain’ made of illusions can still prevent anyone from seeing you directly and therefore you cannot be targeted by certain spells or it at least provides a miss chance to those who can still try a ranged attack. Unlike mirror image the illusion doesn’t just go away either once someone hits it. Then there is my favorite…the illusion bridge over the chasm trick.
Ah, but without an infusion of Shadowstuff, it won't be able to hold something, even if it includes tactile sensations. So little chance of pulling a Coyote-Gravity-Trick.
That said, yeah, I also pretended to cast some of the "Wall"-Spells in the past.
And using Greater Shadow Conjuration to make a Wall of Stone certainly has some interesting perks(making it both semi-real and permanent. So you could bridge a chasm, lead people over it, tell them it's an illusion, and watch 2/5ths of them plummet to their deaths while the rest likely panic for a moment.).
(Generally, Shadow stuff makes things quite interesting. I think it is fixed meanwhile, but there were ways to Push Shades beyond 100% real - I think 120% was possible. So whatever you made with it did full damage - except if the person realised it was an illusion in which case it did EVEN MORE damage. (oh, and obviously non-damage effects always worked)).
Regarding your other example, unfortunately, if you KNOW it's an illusion, there's not a "curtain" in most cases...
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. - only a translucent outline, so no miss chances or non-targetting.
So part of the trick is to make it as believeable as possible so that a.: people don't interact with it, and b.: don't get an automatic pass via proof it is not real.(If, say, you shoot an arrow through the wall from the other side).
The Shadow [School] line of spells (up to and including Shades is among my favorite in the whole game. I have a Shadow Oracle build that I'd one day like to take all the way up to Level 20 that is designed to do absolute shenanigans with shadowstuff.
I don't have access to the book, but the Runelord of Illusions apparently plays a significant role in the Return of the Runelords AP. I imagine that his tactics demonstrate some fantastic high-level uses of illusion spells.
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The Shadow [School] line of spells (up to and including Shades is among my favorite in the whole game...
Karmid is correct, so Drasven and Ro are up.
ok let's see what I can do.
@Drasven, I'd assume you have been sticking with us even if you were not on the roll20 map.
That and the fact that you basically delayed the last couple rounds makes me thing you can safely assume to be in single-move-range of Karmid if you so desire.
(That said, yeah, with only one enemy left and hidden, I also didn't see a much better action, seeing others as better suited for dealing with that one.)
Yes, I also assume that Drasven has been staying with the group. He also is on Roll20 now.
Ro is up, though if Drasven wanted to take a standard action, that's welcome.
I took the liberty of uploading a circular Drasven token, just in case.
I appreciate that, Izzy.
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De nada, el jefe.
No Pms received on my side.
Also I'm currently in a losing fight with my back injury flaring up again so am on pain meds and can sometimes be found facedown on my keyboard.
So.....just to let you know in case there's a string of letters posted..
Yikes! Well I'm still glad we have you, Drasven. If there's anything I can do to help you stay up to date, please let me know.
Ouch! Good luck with your back and your meds!
We're looking for knowledge (arcana) to potentially recognize the rune.
Also, what do you all know about the Sihedron so far?
So it was like 8 years ago or so...I think we found out from the Sage of Sandpoint that it was a symbol of ancient Thassilon,
It represented the power of of the Wizards...or something like that.
Yeah, nothing really except it links back to Thassilonian Wizards.
Oh, but I think it was carved into some people previously...like at the sawmill, and I'm not sure if Aldern didn't do that, too?
There was definitely a Sihedron Amulet with the leader in Thistletop or something...I think it was that wannabe-Demon.
Lia claimed it maybe, but I think we never found out what it does, and honestly I forgot about it. But yeah, we came into contact with the Sihedron before, and it wasn't good stuff.
So finding it here in an underground shrine is definitely not sparking joy.
I almost always want to yes-and. But especially as a lawful type, Izzy would know that a respectable inn proprietor would not look kindly on an unfamiliar person (without any legitimate authority) coming in to break into (and take the possessions of) a known client who has been missing for a couple of days. Especially without that person present.
Of course, whether Ol' Mam Grottle is a respectable inn proprietor is probably information that Izzy doesn't know without a Knowledge (local) check.
So tell me:
Do you feel lucky?
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Obviously you can execute whatever plan you want and I'll roll with it.
My original question still stands: Who's going to the Old Fang in Dockway, and who's going to which church (and) where? The group did some shopping in the morning, so it is by now early afternoon. Your escort to the Lord-Mayor's estate will arrive at the given address in (we'll say) five hours.
<Sigh> Ro will go where Fran goes.
Hmmm... Well, Izzy isn't going to strong-arm an old lady or bust into a room without a very good reason. He would try to convince the landlady to let him in... and he might mention that the poor girl was abducted practically on her doorstep and is now recovering at a church. After her harrowing ordeal, perhaps a kind landlady would be inclined to provide the abductee with the comforts of her goods and entrust the hero that saved the abductee with those goods. :) Or I can bribe her.
Will it work? Who knows. Izzy isn't convincing so it will be more of a circumstantial bonus and prayer for a decent roll. I'm OK with that. Even if I fail to get the goods, that works as well. Given those spoilers, I feel compelled to try. And if he gets rebuffed, we can shelve the 'recover the goods' effort for the next day.
But Izzy is not going to miss dinner with the Mayor, so if I don't time to chase down Fran's goods, I'm happy to say we'll get her stuff tomorrow and we can all run to the church and call it good.
I'm sorry: I forgot all about the equipment lists and money. I will finish that up tomorrow night if I can and get it updated. Anybody who claimed an item now officially has it unless someone else contested it. (Which I think nobody did?)
That way we can spend any cash we have earned before we leave town.
Ah, no, that part slipped my mind.
But the second time around, Lia was just wandering around the city and skipping Dinner :)
And the first time, excited for fruit and a bathhouse and the strange beliefs regarding Pharasma.
She had no really memorably interactions with Madame Grottle I'm afraid.
My assumption is all this is taken place downstairs so I'm keeping Ro out of it. I haven't seen any references to coming back out yet.
Yup, once the group comes back up Ro will return to the scene.
If you want, I can send a street urchin Ro's way to keep her occupied.