@Taisper: This is just my take on it, but, psychologically speaking I would be surprised to find him slipping into a LE-alignment - he's in many ways already LE, so going even more so is not really all that likely (unless he finds employ at a temple to Asmodeus).
I, too, would be interesting in hearing a little more on this, if you've got time. I'm really trying to make him not evil.
Rather, I think his tragedy might be more likely when he starts slipping from lawfulness.
Regardless of the evil thing, I agree with this. It is kind of the thing that keeps him together, and the church knew that.
I think if things came to a crunch - it would be Verik, not Jemini, that would end Taisper's life.
<keaneauReeves>Whoa.</keaneauReeves>
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Despite the fact that I hope it does not happen that would be so freaking awesome to RP. I'm picturing a scene on the edge of that cliff in the picture with both higher level, Taisper holding some likable NPC that has committed a transgression under extenuating circumstances ready to hurl him off a storm raging....
"I can't let you do this cousin."
"I serve the will of Abadar, my judgments are his!"
"You are wrong Taisper, your judgments are your own. And you must pay the price for them."
*Thunder crashes*
Despite the fact that I hope it does not happen that would be so freaking awesome to RP. I'm picturing a scene on the edge of that cliff in the picture with both higher level, Taisper holding some likable NPC that has committed a transgression under extenuating circumstances ready to hurl him off a storm raging....
"I can't let you do this cousin."
"I serve the will of Abadar, my judgments are his!"
"You are wrong Taisper, your judgments are your own. And you must pay the price for them."
*Thunder crashes*
I repeat; <keaneauReeves>Whoa.</keaneauReeves>
Just upfront: this is very much my opinion and understanding of the subject matter.
I definitely wouldn't say Taisper is LE at current. What exactly would you say is evil about him?
Every character is not his RAW alignment. Jemini isn't LG in all aspects; just the overall average makes her so. By that token Taisper's character's alignment is spread across NE sociopathy, LN church affections and LG family ties.
Killing a man without moral inhibitions is pretty much the definition of evil; at least in my (real life) books. Though other than his willingness to do the deed, Taisper's character hasn't portrayed himself in-game as evil - certainly not enough to warrant Jemini digging deeper into him.
Apart from that, though, sociopathy in a character predisposes him towards evil actions. In Taisper this is counter-balanced by a strong desire to participate in community. I don't know the character's personal motivation (fear of abandonment, fear of his own actions, fear of losing the ability to smile) but this is the pivot by which the character is likely to rise and fall.
On a larger scale - I imagine some paladins are sociopaths that bind themselves to their scriptures and god - particularly the highly zealous type of paladin.
I, too, would be interesting in hearing a little more on this, if you've got time. I'm really trying to make him not evil.
Sociopaths are relatively common in society - about 2% of people around you are. What marks these people is the inability to attach an emotional response to a moral stimulus. The question of "Do I steal this car?" is not answered out of a moral value system, but out of an intellectual exercise: "What are the odds of being caught? How much trouble is it to me to be caught?"
Most educated/intelligent sociopaths don't really get noticed in any criminal capacity - since they are smart enough not to want to get themselves into trouble; but they are also the kind of people that do jobs involving high risks to others. Such as money investors: predatory capitalists. The danger to society are stupid ones, and too intelligent ones.
I think, in Taisper's case, a fall to evil is not definite - the story plays out in many different ways. For all we know Taisper will have a revelation and become the herald of Cayden Cailean. Such cave-ats aside, dropping to Lawful-Evil would be a stretch - something that I can imagine is possible if he and Verik have a major fall-out and the only thing that keeps Taisper half-way in line would be his affiliation with the church of Abadar.
However, I think it is more likely that if the control-checks for Taisper fall apart; then both the family ties and the church will not be able to hold him together any longer and his Lawful days are over. The lawful aspect here implies that (in my understanding) Taisper isn't inherently a lawful person in the sense that he does not need a fixed order by which to live by, no strict discipline that comes natural to him. He is lawful because he found that to be what allows him to be - a forceful suppression of his uncontrolled, chaotic tendencies; nurtured by the church.
The natural progression then, given that his LN and LG influences leave him, is that he slips towards N or CN - and his sociopathy in such a state of being easily predispose him to slip into an evil alignment. So... possibly a tragedy in the making. But nothing is definite.
...sorry if this doesn't come over well. It's just my opinion. :)
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Oh my god I'm a sociopath! Or possibly a hypocondriac. ;)
But I would not characterize the killing of a murderer as an evil act. Even if it was done callously. I would call it neutral, though rpbably at the murkier end. But alignments always tricky and characters are rarely black and white enough to be simply identified under the alignment systems limitations.
I'm always up for a good debate on alignments and the like :)
I would argue that the ability to kill without remorse doesn't make someone evil. In the world our characters live in, killing is a way of life. If Taisper killed indiscriminately he would be evil, but since he kills by a code and only kills people that are typically considered "evil" I would say that shifts him quite a ways away from evil. Zander has the same stance on killing pretty much though it matters a lot less to him and he kills more as a means to survive or to accomplish his goals (eg clearing out bandits in the stolen lands). I envision Zander pretty much on the CG/CN border but leaning towards good due to his sense of self-sacrifice and his desire to do things for the purpose of helping others.
Ooooo philosophy is such a horrible thing to do at 1am xD
But I would not characterize the killing of a murderer as an evil act. Even if it was done callously. I would call it neutral, though rpbably at the murkier end. But alignments always tricky and characters are rarely black and white enough to be simply identified under the alignment systems limitations.
True dat, about the greyness of alignments - but I don't think a life is inherently more or less valuable because its alignment (which is to say the moral basis on which much of Western justice works is on the premise that everybody is equal). Killing a murderer callously is not less evil than killing an innocent callously. Though you can morally accept the killing of a murderer rather than the killing of an innocent. It is a bit murky - but these things are inherently different. Evil acts can be morally desirable.
Jemini, certainly, feels no need compulsion to put the good eye on Taisper; she feels his actions are unfortunately necessary.
I would argue that the ability to kill without remorse doesn't make someone evil. In the world our characters live in, killing is a way of life. If Taisper killed indiscriminately he would be evil, but since he kills by a code and only kills people that are typically considered "evil" I would say that shifts him quite a ways away from evil.
That's just the point: Taisper has to rely on these aids as crutches. As if he knows the nature of the beast and is afraid of it. He desperately tries to embrace a life in which he is not the bad guy. But if it is these outside aids that make him not evil, then his underlying core is evil.
This is not a bad thing, mind you - in the context that it makes for great roleplaying here; and he's doing a great job while he's at it.
...I do disagree that killing is a way of life in this fantasy setting. If you were to hypothetically run the numbers and see how many (intelligent) creatures died a violent death on Golarion, and how many humans died a violent death on Earth, then I'd say Earth is the more violent.
Compared with Drow culture, virtually no human settlements (fantastical or real) rely on regular violent deaths as part of the culture. Yes, bloodfeuds and honour killings happen, and several regions haven't seen peaceful days for more than a year in succession.
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Well for me the difference between a headsman callously killing a condemned man and the same man killing someone he knows to be innocent is staggeringly vast. Morality is of course famously hard to pin down as we simply have no agreed upon foundations to base our arguments upon. Hence as an atheist - well strictly speaking agnostic, but I'm very skeptical - I have to base my opinions on a mixture of gut feeling and reason.
I would say that Taisper is not evil because he chooses to hold to those crutches, choosing to surpass them would move him towards good, choosing to cast them aside would move him towards evil, holding to them is to me a neutral act.
Well for me the difference between a headsman callously killing a condemned man and the same man killing someone he knows to be innocent is staggeringly vast. Morality is of course famously hard to pin down as we simply have no agreed upon foundations to base our arguments upon. Hence as an atheist - well strictly speaking agnostic, but I'm very skeptical - I have to base my opinions on a mixture of gut feeling and reason.
I would say that Taisper is not evil because he chooses to hold to those crutches, choosing to surpass them would move him towards good, choosing to cast them aside would move him towards evil, holding to them is to me a neutral act.
I agree on all points (hey agnostic buddy) and will elaborate by saying that Taisper's code that keeps him from being evil is no different from yours or my personal code of ethics and adherance to laws that keeps us from being evil. Saying that if Taisper tosses his "crutches" aside he will become evil is a true statement, but it's universally true. If Jemini cast her morals and her paladin's code aside and started murdering children sure she'd be evil, but there is nothing indicating that she will do that just as there is nothing indicating that Taisper will throw his code, one of the most important things in his life, aside.
...I do disagree that killing is a way of life in this fantasy setting. If you were to hypothetically run the numbers and see how many (intelligent) creatures died a violent death on Golarion, and how many humans died a violent death on Earth, then I'd say Earth is the more violent.
Compared with Drow culture, virtually no human settlements (fantastical or real) rely on regular violent deaths as part of the culture. Yes, bloodfeuds and honour killings happen, and several regions haven't seen peaceful days for more than a year in succession.
While this technically very true due to the lower population and higher level of Earth technology (making killing easier), I would argue that Golarion is a much more dangerous place and that the prevelance of "Adventurers" going out and killing things all the time makes this world much more full of killing.
I'll concede that a typical commoner isn't very likely to kill people, but an adventurer (which we all are) has to get used to the business of killing pretty quickly or else hang up their boots and start tilling fields.
Undeniably. Yes.
But keep in mind, if Jemini only rescinds her code (not morality) then she's an average human being. Taisper's character is innately a sociopath; meaning that without the code he does not even have the luxury of morality.
This is of course entirely mute - Taisper's character will evolve as the situation and player(s) demand it. We have little idea of what will come for us.
As a criminologist and law enforcement officer, I get to meet a lot of functional sociopaths. Sometimes you see true evil. I had a guy under arrest in December for chokig his girlfriend. He was bragging that he'd been arrested twice before with the same complainant. The first was for beating her senseless, the second for sexually assaulting her at knifepoint. Both times, he boasted, she didn't follow up with the detectives and came back to him.
Of course, we made sure to get a sworn affidavit from her, which allows the State of Texas to step in and prosecute without her assistance.
Taisper's not evil, though he's definitely not good.
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I recently worked at a prison in the U.K and its alarming how murderers and rapists can seem like the nicest guys, does not seem right. But then its so easy to put on a front with the world. I often wonder if someone can be evil in bursts. Is someone whose rage overwhelms their reason and commits a brutal crime evil before they do so, or after once their temper is quelled and back under control? Evil again another slippery customer.
Undeniably. Yes.
But keep in mind, if Jemini only rescinds her code (not morality) then she's an average human being. Taisper's character is innately a sociopath; meaning that without the code he does not even have the luxury of morality.
This is of course entirely mute - Taisper's character will evolve as the situation and player(s) demand it. We have little idea of what will come for us.
See though, if Jemini drops her code (Lawful), but keeps her morality (Good) she would become NG. If she then dropped her morality, she would become N (or an average human being.)
If Taisper dropped his code (Lawful) he would become N. It's true that being true neutral without his code to back him and his personality type it is possible that he could commit an evil act, but until that point he would just be neutral. And once again, I find it highly unlikely that he would ever drop his code.
But yeah, this is all academic, though I'm hoping that our psychoanalyzing the crap out of his character will be useful for making him easier to RP :)
I found the whole concept interesting, and the discussion well thought out and civil.
I'd agree that Taispar is LN, and can't see him losing the L without something dramatic, and I think that's why if he did lose it he'd shoot to some extreme. His lawfulness is such a crutch that without it he wouldn't just go N, he'd go like CG or CE depending on what the shock was, and given his dark proclivities maybe E is more likely. That's what I read from LoreKeeper's argument. Because of the way Taispar holds to his alignment, the way he'd lose it would have to be traumatic and extreme. Jemini could simply lose faith and become nuetral, to lose Law would be a trauma in and of itself to Taispar.
The execution matter is also very hazy, that's for sure. And it is pracitcal fact that sometimes as adventurer's you have to be callous about life or you won't get shit done. In meta sense you have to know when to dehumanise the NPCs.
Oh and Verrik, I think its interesting that you used the example of a hooded executioner as a killer with justification, as fantasy tropes typically portray them as dark hooded torturers!
I...I think at this point you all know more about my character than I do. I also think you're all an awful lot smarter than I am. Holy crow.
Nah - you've just failed your will save vs intellectual glamer ;)
...
On a slightly disrelated topic - I think that often it is fine to create roleplay related trouble and shlepp for yourself and the party. It's like creating a well-balanced character (not min-maxed) but then playing the character min-maxed: making the "right" choices, getting the best loot, favoring the right NPCs, getting rid of unnecessary trouble (like transporting 6 bandits alive), etc
Nah - you've just failed your will save vs intellectual glamer ;)
Ahahahaaaaa indeed I must have. :-)
In all seriousness, I really do thank all of you for your perspectives on this, and for taking the time to write it out. I've honestly gone back and re-read it a few times to internalize the whole thing because as Zander pointed out it does help me get a handle on the character.
So, ah, who's next on the couch? ;-)
Man, I can't believe we are already past 500 posts. The character interaction here is amazing! (And amply rewarded by RP EXP!)
Berrin: +650 --> 1107
Jemini: +785 --> 1312
Taisper: +720 --> 1327
Tandlara: +450 --> 942
Verik: +890 --> 1472
Zander: +630 --> 1217
235 of the experience is from combat with Kressle and her bandits.
Jemini got 20 EXP for post #305, as did Verik for #307. Bonding!
o.O wow o.O
I'm going to have to read through this again...
edit: yay! XP! What experience track are we on? Fast, med, slow?
hahaha@305&307 - you're just admitting that you enjoy a bit of adult... literature... yea ;)
Berrin has a point. I assumed medium experience track - but pbps often are a bit faster to help stimulate the progression of the story.
We're going with medium progression. After all, it's only been a few days! You'll start racking it up quickly once you start exploring.
Man, you really had me worried that Taisper was going to execute Kressle there. I guess that was the point. Good writing!
Really! Wow, thanks man. ^_^ I'm working on like 3 pretty intense posts at once so maybe some of that came through. I've also, like I said, been thinking about all the Taisper analysis that went on above, helping me get a bead on him. Glad you dig!
Man, you really had me worried that Taisper was going to execute Kressle there. I guess that was the point. Good writing!
I concur, great post! Glad to see our analysis helped :)
Hey! I know I've been having the most absences and that's retarded my progress for story XP. That's to be expected, and I don't mind Tandlara growing slower and being a bit behind the others, but I was wondering what feedback I could get to improve my RPing so I don't fall too far behind and the gap doesn't get too big. Any ideas, thoughts?
As no one else spoke up, I suppose I'm taking it. I'll sort things out once we can get Oleg to give us a price for those treasure items and figure out the sale stuff. Feel free to give him a bit of in-character prodding so we can get the loot dividing moving along :)
Berrin is cleaning his armor and weaponry as the well-scented ladies walk by, looking up from polishing grime and oiling his armor to ward off rust he watches them saunter past 1d20 - 1 ⇒ (2) - 1 = 1. The swishing skirts and girlish smiles make Berrin stop and stare for a moment, shacking his head he picks up a whetstone and sets it to his longsword.
Is that a euphemism?
lol. No, thats an accurate description of his action as he sits on the bench and does exaclty as the despription entails.
Are my previous remarks making people paranoid?
lol. No, thats an accurate description of his action as he sits on the bench and does exaclty as the despription entails.
Are my previous remarks making people paranoid?
Haha, relax :)
I don't think Barcas meant that negatively and I don't think any of are going to be easily offended. Speaking for myself at least, I'm pretty impossible to offend and will generally find humor in anything.
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+1 easily amused, very hard to offend, lol.
The last flurry of posting has been very fine btw. I have a few reservations about the XP system, not everyone is chained to there computer like me, but it certainly seems to have done wonders for the writing quality and RP which is head and shoulders above any other PBP I've experienced.
I've got a deadline for my fantasy novel - A Worthless Prince, buy it when you see it! - which is requiring me to work slavishly to hope to meet it... Hence the chained to computer.
Also here's the quasi-official explanation on sleeping Elves:
Q: Do Elves Trance? In previous editions elves could "trance", resting for 4 hours and gaining the benefits of an 8 hour rest. The Pathfinder rules don't seem to list this attribute for elves any longer. Is that true?
A: (James Jacobs) Elves not sleeping is indeed relatively setting specific, and while trances are in Elves of Golarion, it's something we'll honestly probably be moving away from in Golarion. We've done a fair amount to reimagine our elves, and by having them sleep (or at least implying they sleep) does help to make Golarion's elves more Golarion and less Forgotten Realms (which is the actual only setting in which elves don't sleep, I believe... even though they seem to still be on a day-night cycle and often have beds in their homes...).
BUT! If you prefer the non-sleeping elves, that certainly still works in your game. Unless I'm wrong, there's nothing in the elf flavor text in the PRPG that says they DO sleep, is there?
Oh, and though Zander probably isn't going to speak up on the matter for a bit, I'm in favor of us focusing on exploring the nearby area and working our way south. Frankly speaking, if we go up against the Stag Lord before we get some more levels under our belt we'll probably get destroyed.
+1 easily amused, very hard to offend, lol.
The last flurry of posting has been very fine btw. I have a few reservations about the XP system, not everyone is chained to there computer like me, but it certainly seems to have done wonders for the writing quality and RP which is head and shoulders above any other PBP I've experienced.
I've got a deadline for my fantasy novel - A Worthless Prince, buy it when you see it! - which is requiring me to work slavishly to hope to meet it... Hence the chained to computer.
I have kind of a weird suggestion about the RP XP... what if it was pooled? Like, we total up all of the XP that all of us get from posting and divide that by six and distribute it to all of the party. That way we'd still be motivated to post as often and as well as we can, but it would even things out for people who aren't able to post as often and it would eliminate the problem about us leveling at different times.
What would everyone think about that?
If we did go with this plan, everyone would have 1226.17 XP right now. (I think, Barcas would have to check my numbers as they're being a little weird)
It's a pretty crazy idea I'll give you that...
I'd be cool with dividing my xp with you (although I'm near the bottom so I'd be one of the people gaining from this change), but as the system stands it does encourage people to post more. My only concern would be that the rate could drop.
Still, the group should be leveling as a whole, not as individuals imo. But then again the rp xp is bonus xp not as given by the AP so everyone should still be on the minimum apropriate levels given by the AP... I dunno. GM call.
It's a pretty crazy idea I'll give you that...
I'd be cool with dividing my xp with you (although I'm near the bottom so I'd be one of the people gaining from this change), but as the system stands it does encourage people to post more. My only concern would be that the rate could drop.
Still, the group should be leveling as a whole, not as individuals imo. But then again the rp xp is bonus xp not as given by the AP so everyone should still be on the minimum apropriate levels given by the AP... I dunno. GM call.
Well here's how I look at it:
If we switched to this new system, would I post less?
My answer is no. To be honest even if we weren't getting RP XP I'd probably post the same amount just because I am totally digging this game and want to keep up with things and make my mark on the story.
On a side note: WOOT! Just found out their showing Stardust on TV tonight. One of the best fantasy flicks made IMO.
Honestly, I'm keen to keep trying the individual XPs. It's the first time I've played in such a system - and its feeling great; it has inspired everybody's writing and I think it is premature to abandon the system at this point. I don't think the divide between characters will ever get more than 1 level - and I think I'm fine with that. Verik, for example, completely deserves every XP he gets and it will be recognition to him to level a day before us - and motivation for us to keep up.
I say keep the single-XPs, but guarantee that no character is more than 1 level behind the lead.
Oh, and though Zander probably isn't going to speak up on the matter for a bit, I'm in favor of us focusing on exploring the nearby area and working our way south. Frankly speaking, if we go up against the Stag Lord before we get some more levels under our belt we'll probably get destroyed.
Just in case it's unclear :) Berrin wants to go after the Stag Lord but explore every hex along the way. Level up isn't far off so we should still be well on the way to 3rd when we get to him.
Edit: And by selecting a different route back we should have explored a signifigant portion of the lands by the time we get back and need to worrie about the political bit.