Another Invisibility, Stealth, and Sneak Attack Thread

Okay, I'm sure this is answered somewhere but I haven't been able to find it (or maybe I just don't understand it?)

I have a hostile NPC assassin with Greater Invisibility about to attack the Party.

The Stealth rules read, "If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you’re moving."

That seems pretty straight forward.

But then the chart under Invisibility for the Perception roll DC specifies:

In combat or speaking –20
Moving at half speed –5
Moving at full speed –10
Running or charging –20
Not moving +20
Using Stealth Stealth check +20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15

So the NPC rolls their Stealth check +20 if moving and adds it to the base DC of 20, which the defender has to beat with Perception to get a hunch there's something there, and to pinpoint there would be another +20 to the DC? The modifiers for in combat, moving at half speed, etc, only apply if not using stealth? It would make no sense to penalize them twice for moving, since the Stealth check has already gone from +40 to +20.

And for sneak attack, does sneak attack damage only apply to the first strike, since the defender can pinpoint the square from which the attack came?

Thanks. I have to say I probably hate these rules more than any other in PF.

First, Sneak Attack applies to all attacks made while invisible. With the Invisibility spell or Vanish you would only be invisible for the first attack, so you would only get 1 Sneak Attack (because after the first attack you hecome visible) but with Greater Invisibility this means ALL attacks.

Also, if any of the PCs have See Invisibility or Improved Uncanny Dodge or something similar then you won't get Sneak Attack against them.

Second, as soon as you attack the PCs don't need to make a perception to get a hunch that "something is there". You hit them in the face, they know you're there. If they beat your stealth check then you don't get a surprise round (or the PCs who beat it get to join in on the surprise round), but with a +40 to stealth you should feel pretty confident that you'll get a surprise round.

The exception here is if a PC or Animal Companion has Scent or something similar, in which case they'll probably notice you before you act.

Now ...

In combat or speaking –20

Moving at half speed –5
Moving at full speed –10
Running or charging –20
Not moving +20
Using Stealth Stealth check +20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15

The bolded section is the +40 to your stealth check for using the Greater Invisibilty spell.

Once combat starts the PCs will probably be able to find you reasonably easily ...

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If you're using Range it's harder for the PCs, but if you're using melee they'll know where you are - no check needed (and PCs can speak out-of-turn, so once you hit someone they can shout-out where you are).

If you attack once and then move then the PCs will know which square you attacked from, but will need to make a perception check vs your stealth (you roll Stealth+20 if you're moving at half-speed). This can keep your NPC hidden longer, but you can only attack once per round.

If you attack more than once in a round you're limited to a 5-foot-step, so even if you move the PCs will have a good idea where you are (they'll know you can't be more than 5 feet from the sauare you attacked from).

Finally, Grappling. If someone Grapples you then Invisibility does virtually nothing for you ...

A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.

Oh, one thing I only realised recently is that Invisible creatures get a bonus to-hit.

Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against a sighted opponent, and ignores its opponent’s Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.

So that'll help your NPC too.

Once again, you don't gain this benefit if they have Improved Uncanny Dodge or See Invisibility or something similar.

Thanks, this helps! So even once combat is initiated and they know the attacker is there, the attacker will still get stealth attack damage from the Greater Invisibility?

...

Also, if any of the PCs have See Invisibility or Improved Uncanny Dodge or something similar then you won't get Sneak Attack against them.
...

At 2nd level, a bloodrager can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does he lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A bloodrager with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against him.

Thanks, this helps! So even once combat is initiated and they know the attacker is there, the attacker will still get stealth attack damage from the Greater Invisibility?

Yes, unless the target can see invisible or has blind-fight or something.

Note blind-fight still requires you to somehow pinpoint your target, either by beating their stealth+20 or getting hit by them once in the round already.

Minor correction: Baseline Uncanny Dodge is usually enough to prevent sneak attacks from invisible foes (assuming you aren't also flanked, feinted, or immobilized).

Thanks. I should know that, I've been playing a Bloodrager for a couple of years now =P

Note blind-fight still requires you to somehow pinpoint your target, either by beating their stealth+20 or getting hit by them once in the round already.

uh, no.

An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don't lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn't get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible.

This doesn't list any dependence on pinpointing the enemy.

Oh, it seems that only the greater/improved versions mention that for ranged attacks (within 30ft for improved), so it's treating you as pinpointing as soon as they attack, not after they hit you with regular blindfight.

Huh, I never even noticed the Ranged/Melee distinction in the Blind-Fight feat line.

An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee.

If you successfully pinpoint an invisible or hidden attacker within 30 feet, that attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you with ranged attacks.

If you successfully pinpoint an invisible or hidden attacker, that attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you with ranged attacks, regardless of the range.

Also all the rerolls you get against concealed targets must be with Melee attacks ... doesn't help an archer.

Well at least I'm learning something from this thread =)